South Thailand border crossings reports problems to enter with 60-days tourist visas "TR60"

[Mario2008]

Not exactly. The law state the reasons on which grounds one can be denied. There is also an appeals process, which gives the minister 7 days to make a final decision.

[hawker9000]

Not exactly. The law state the reasons on which grounds one can be denied. There is also an appeals process, which gives the minister 7 days to make a final decision.

Three questions:

1) Has anyone arriving & denied entry ever won such an appeal (or even made one)?

2) Where (and how) does one prepare his case and then wait while the minister makes his determination?

3) Is this practical enough to even be worth mentioning, or even applicable to travelers arriving at the airport or a land border crossing?

Legal grounds or no, 'seems to me that practically speaking the IO (and perhaps their supervisor) will decide your fate.

[KED]

If Thailand wants to stop certain travelers from using 60 day tourist visas, under certain conditions (e.g. back to back, more than 2 per year, etc), then the Thai embassies should be refusing to issue these visas. It seems inconsistant that a person would be issued the tourist visa, only to be refused at the border. What information is available to the border agent that is not available to the Thai embassy agent issuing the tourist visa?

[ukrules]

If Thailand wants to stop certain travelers from using 60 day tourist visas, under certain conditions (e.g. back to back, more than 2 per year, etc), then the Thai embassies should be refusing to issue these visas. It seems inconsistant that a person would be issued the tourist visa, only to be refused at the border. What information is available to the border agent that is not available to the Thai embassy agent issuing the tourist visa?

Right now this is a minor issue as people can walk back over the border into Malaysia, it's still a major inconvenience for those involved though.

It will be interesting to see the new interpretations adopted at the airports on August 13th. I have a feeling that things may stabilise after this current period of uncertainty at different land borders and the new airport rules could well become the new standard.

Airline regulations are of course specifically defined as they need to know exactly who will / won't generally be allowed in before boarding due to financial penalties imposed on airlines for passengers refused entry.

So right now I think it's an evolving situation on a regional basis which will be clarified only after the international airport changes are put in place.

[ukrules]

If Thailand wants to stop certain travelers from using 60 day tourist visas, under certain conditions (e.g. back to back, more than 2 per year, etc), then the Thai embassies should be refusing to issue these visas. It seems inconsistant that a person would be issued the tourist visa, only to be refused at the border. What information is available to the border agent that is not available to the Thai embassy agent issuing the tourist visa?

I suspect this comes back to the airport issue I mentioned in my post above.

When a visa is issued they won't generally know if you're going to fly internationally or drive to the border and walk across into Thailand and for now double entries can still be used when flying.

[Hawkman]

People on a Non O visa will be able to go,enter freely without any hindrance whatsoever. Why because if you are married they cannot refuse you to visit family..... by law this is.

It's about time they are cracking down on border runners with just a single tourist visa. Who knows, maybe we will see better teachers.

Why would we see better teachers? How would that work?

Some teachers who are working illegally are no doubt bad but some have experience and are good.

All this will do is, all illegal teachers will be replaced by young backpackers with degrees in whatever (which does not make you a teacher) or fake Khao San ones, who will be out partying lots flirting with students and wouldn't know anything about tenses, how to drill, model, observe, evaluate, plan, classroom management or teaching.

Quite the opposite, this will throw teaching English into the dark ages here, full of post uni-grads milking it for a bit of fun.

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[Tomtomtom69]

If Thailand wants to stop certain travelers from using 60 day tourist visas, under certain conditions (e.g. back to back, more than 2 per year, etc), then the Thai embassies should be refusing to issue these visas. It seems inconsistant that a person would be issued the tourist visa, only to be refused at the border. What information is available to the border agent that is not available to the Thai embassy agent issuing the tourist visa?

I fully agree. One would think that an embassy or consulate, with their resources would have the ability to make sure someone is likely be granted entry with a visa issued by them. I don't think it is the policy of any country to issue a traveler with a visa that was inappropriately issued and thus the traveler is refused entry, that way the issuing country gets the revenue but the traveler experiences fury and inconvenience.

If this happened often enough in most countries, government officials would start to scrutinize the embassies/consulates where this behavior was occurring and reprimand/discipline officers. Because it could be seen as an attempt to make money off of a visa that can't be used as intended. Most countries scrutinize visa applicants to the point that in all likelihood they will gain entry unless such traveler fraudulently obtained said visa using false documentation, false statements etc. and this was only determined at the border checkpoint.

Exceptions are countries for whom visas are simply means of generating revenue. Countries where this applies include Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and Indonesia. For those countries, unlimited back-to-back entries are OK because with each new entry or extension, more money goes to the government coffers. Inevitably, some "tea money" also changes hands too, making visas and visa extension lucrative businesses in those countries.

[harrry]

Personally I think this is a move that will hurt Thailand badly. I think the general idea is reasonable in reducing the population of foreigners who are in the country working without visas etc.however the idea that the visa issued by the consulate is something that can just be ignored at a whim is not good. Embassies have the opportunity and in fact do refuse to issue visas often. Once issues it should be, as most countries do recognised it as prima facie evidence that the holder is permitted to access the county unless it can be shown that some aspect of the visa which could not have been detected on issue is false and even then not on the whim of one officer.

Some of those that were refused entry may deserve to be and the place to detect that was the Embassy. It only takes one valid person to be refused for about 10 less people to visit the country and use a different holiday destination in future. Tourists do not like problems when they travel and little can be done by advertising to change advise based on the experience of a friend.

I do think some of the problem may be placed on a strict interpretation by one particular immigration head. There should be no room for an individuals actions which are different to the norm by Immigration.

Edited July 14, 2014 by harrry

[thesetat2013]

It may be worth remembering that those on a NON-O based on marriage can, I believe, extend your stay at any immigration by 60 das as long as you take the wife with you? This would mean only having to leave the country every 150 days.

Worth posting this one again: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy777-2551_en.pdf . It's 2.24, you don't even need a visa to get that one.

I am a bit worried about this police order being revamped. When I came here in 2007, the marriage extension did not have the 400k baht in bank option. If they fiddle with it again, I still have the Thai kid option, should they change that too .. screwed.

I wish immigration would be more transparent about the changes they are contemplating and actually allow discussion, instead of just blurting them out suddenly.

The 400k baht in Thai bank for extensions based upon marriage was in the police order in 2007. In fact at that time if could be in a joint account and the 40k income could also be your wife's or a combination of yours and hers.

Police order 777/2551 eliminated the wife's income option and joint accounts.

There has been no indication from immigration that will be any changes made to the extension rules.

This is not true! I have tried at both Chaeng Wattana and locally in several offices asking about the 40K being combined by both my and my spouses income and they all have told me the same. The 40k Monthly has to be from my own income. A joint income is not accepted anymore.

[mataleo]

I had triple entry from uk extended every entry for 30 days then TR from laos double entry exte ded first going to extend secend in jomtien this week not sure will get it or not. Is it any point to get one more from laos going by air? Or too risky at this stage? In terms i will stuck in laos...

The problems mentioned above are happening at the southern border with Malaysia which is going to be a very different situation to whatever is happening going to / from Laos.

Well simple solution. Dont go to south. Use air.

Solved.

[Deacon Bell]

It may be worth remembering that those on a NON-O based on marriage can, I believe, extend your stay at any immigration by 60 das as long as you take the wife with you? This would mean only having to leave the country every 150 days.

Worth posting this one again: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy777-2551_en.pdf . It's 2.24, you don't even need a visa to get that one.

I am a bit worried about this police order being revamped. When I came here in 2007, the marriage extension did not have the 400k baht in bank option. If they fiddle with it again, I still have the Thai kid option, should they change that too .. screwed.

I wish immigration would be more transparent about the changes they are contemplating and actually allow discussion, instead of just blurting them out suddenly.

The 400k baht in Thai bank for extensions based upon marriage was in the police order in 2007. In fact at that time if could be in a joint account and the 40k income could also be your wife's or a combination of yours and hers.

Police order 777/2551 eliminated the wife's income option and joint accounts.

There has been no indication from immigration that will be any changes made to the extension rules.

This is not true! I have tried at both Chaeng Wattana and locally in several offices asking about the 40K being combined by both my and my spouses income and they all have told me the same. The 40k Monthly has to be from my own income. A joint income is not accepted anymore.

That's what he said.

[hawker9000]

I had triple entry from uk extended every entry for 30 days then TR from laos double entry exte ded first going to extend secend in jomtien this week not sure will get it or not. Is it any point to get one more from laos going by air? Or too risky at this stage? In terms i will stuck in laos...

The problems mentioned above are happening at the southern border with Malaysia which is going to be a very different situation to whatever is happening going to / from Laos.

Well simple solution. Dont go to south. Use air.

Solved.

For now...

[LivinLOS]

I must admit. I got my retirement visa and secure for now, but I'm still going for the pr visa. IMHO if you want to retire and live the rest of you life here, buy condo, allowed to work and so on, maybe get married so why don't learn the laungage apply for 7600. And pay the 192000. It's easy. No more visa runs, no more complain about immigration rules , you can have you name on anything, you are almost like a thai.

Why not use maybe 2 years of you life to be able to read, write and understand thai. This crackdown on the visa will never ever be a problem for you.

OK so revist this when they actually issue you PR..

One of the unwritten rules is a significant tax history.. Hence working here.. Hence retirees and married visa extensions wont even get looked at..

So your wonderful idea kinda falls flat at the first hurdle.

[elsewheresoon]

I suppose this crackdown is understandable however lots of people have no choice but to use a tourist visa to live in Thailand.

1. They don't wish to get married for the sake of an extension of stay.

2. They don't fall under retirement age.

3. They don't need to work in Thailand or pay a fortune to open a company for the sake of a work permit for a business extension.

4. They work for a company in their home country and are too busy to attend a school for a education visa.

If there was an option to extend a stay based on a foreign income fair enough but it's not so tourist visa is the only choice - they say apply for the correct kind of visa, but what is the correct kind of visa for someone in this position?

If this person was to say form a company and get a business visa and have it extended - this would still not be the right type of visa........

[stevenl]

I suppose this crackdown is understandable however lots of people have no choice but to use a tourist visa to live in Thailand.

1. They don't wish to get married for the sake of an extension of stay.

2. They don't fall under retirement age.

3. They don't need to work in Thailand or pay a fortune to open a company for the sake of a work permit for a business extension.

4. They work for a company in their home country and are too busy to attend a school for a education visa.

If there was an option to extend a stay based on a foreign income fair enough but it's not so tourist visa is the only choice - they say apply for the correct kind of visa, but what is the correct kind of visa for someone in this position?

If this person was to say form a company and get a business visa and have it extended - this would still not be the right type of visa........

You say 'have no choice'.

They do have a choice, but chose differently. They could get married, but chose not to. They could open a company, but chose not to. Your last choice makes no sense anyway, if they work in their home country they have plenty of time here.

We make choices and must take the consequences of those choices.

[Deacon Bell]

I suppose this crackdown is understandable however lots of people have no choice but to use a tourist visa to live in Thailand.

1. They don't wish to get married for the sake of an extension of stay.

2. They don't fall under retirement age.

3. They don't need to work in Thailand or pay a fortune to open a company for the sake of a work permit for a business extension.

4. They work for a company in their home country and are too busy to attend a school for a education visa.

If there was an option to extend a stay based on a foreign income fair enough but it's not so tourist visa is the only choice - they say apply for the correct kind of visa, but what is the correct kind of visa for someone in this position?

If this person was to say form a company and get a business visa and have it extended - this would still not be the right type of visa........

They could choose to live in a country that they have some sort of birth right to live in.

[RTH10260]

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It is pure speculation on my part, but I would not be surprised to either see this multi-entry visa done away with and everybody told to get the appropriate extension of stay, or a crack down on those using them to live here indefinitely without showing any funds whatsoever (could be working illegally).

I don't think multiple entry visas will go away as there are scenarios where having them is desirable. I am thinking of those that like to stay longer than the tourist visa is intended for, eg with some base both in the home country and in Thailand, and traveling multiple times a year between. Less hassel on travel planning as when needing to apply for a non-O single entry several times a year. I assume there may be a limitation coming as to max 180 days a year before requiring conversion to long stay permit.

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[RTH10260]

if they can afford a house, they should be able to afford 400,000 in the bank. And if the are working illegally, they are not wanted in Thailand. Just as they are not wanted in any other country. Nothing to do with Thailand shouting itself in the foot, etc.

They are certainly wanted by their students and the parents of their students....

Finance for a house and car are easy enough. Getting 400k in cash and locking it up for 2 months every year, not so much.

Those potential student never comes into the equation for the WP of a foreign teacher, Thailand or elsewhere. Else many businesses would be queuing up for foreign IT staff, and other professions too.

Hey, even the water buffaloos are seriously waiting to be tended by a real cowboy or vajero.

More serious, Thai students and their parents are expecting to have competent Thai teachers, not have to rely on uncertain quality of foreigner the school happens to stumble over.

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[RTH10260]

if they can afford a house, they should be able to afford 400,000 in the bank. And if the are working illegally, they are not wanted in Thailand. Just as they are not wanted in any other country. Nothing to do with Thailand shouting itself in the foot, etc.

They are certainly wanted by their students and the parents of their students....

Finance for a house and car are easy enough. Getting 400k in cash and locking it up for 2 months every year, not so much.

Drifting for a second Mario, if they are illegal, ie, working without a work permit, how are they getting finance?

They are working on a slave's salary, at the whim of the employer, open to extortion to anyone who would have a bad hair day.

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[JDGRUEN]

if they can afford a house, they should be able to afford 400,000 in the bank. And if the are working illegally, they are not wanted in Thailand. Just as they are not wanted in any other country. Nothing to do with Thailand shouting itself in the foot, etc.

They are certainly wanted by their students and the parents of their students....

Finance for a house and car are easy enough. Getting 400k in cash and locking it up for 2 months every year, not so much.

Those potential student never comes into the equation for the WP of a foreign teacher, Thailand or elsewhere. Else many businesses would be queuing up for foreign IT staff, and other professions too.

Hey, even the water buffaloos are seriously waiting to be tended by a real cowboy or vajero.

More serious, Thai students and their parents are expecting to have competent Thai teachers, not have to rely on uncertain quality of foreigner the school happens to stumble over.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Those potential student never comes into the equation for the WP of a foreign teacher, Thailand or elsewhere. Else many businesses would be queuing up for foreign IT staff, and other professions too.

Hey, even the water buffaloos (sic) are seriously waiting to be tended by a real cowboy or vajero.

More serious, Thai students and their parents are expecting to have competent Thai teachers, not have to rely on uncertain quality of foreigner the school happens to stumble over.

***********************************************************************

If you are speaking of English language teachers ... when you say 'competent Thai teachers, not have to rely on uncertain quality of foreigner the school happens to stumble over'

My response: I have personally met several Thai (National) English teachers and several Filipino/a English teachers - and only one could speak English in a full and competent manner without a hindering accent or poor vocabulary and pronunciation. I believe that there are many Native English Speakers in Thailand -- without the 'proper' credentials - who could do a much better job -- and not instill in the students a crippling accent and poor vocabulary ... But immigration laws and Work Permits being what they are -- we get what we get...

[chrisinth]

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if they can afford a house, they should be able to afford 400,000 in the bank. And if the are working illegally, they are not wanted in Thailand. Just as they are not wanted in any other country. Nothing to do with Thailand shouting itself in the foot, etc.

They are certainly wanted by their students and the parents of their students....

Finance for a house and car are easy enough. Getting 400k in cash and locking it up for 2 months every year, not so much.

Drifting for a second Mario, if they are illegal, ie, working without a work permit, how are they getting finance?

They are working on a slave's salary, at the whim of the employer, open to extortion to anyone who would have a bad hair day.

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That just makes it even more confusing for me.

OK, let me ask the question slightly differently, if these teachers are on tourist visas or visa exempt stamps, earning little money, how are they able to get finance from the banks (or where ever) for their houses and cars?