Will They Ever Leglize Gambling?

[Neeranam]

I've heard a lot of Thais telling me recently that their online gambling sites have been targetted because of the World Cup, and all the betting that goes with it.

Isn't it about time they legalized it? There are heaps of casinos already in Bangkok, betting shops, especially near the universities. The lottery - what's that if it's not gambling?

What's wrong with an occasional flutter? Is it any worse than drinking, which instead of being banned is highly promoted!

[Donz]

Well then poker machines will be put in most clubs and pubs, more people would be gambling etc.

They can still gamble now but atleast its not in every pub etc.

[Chang_paarp]

If it is legal, the wrong people get a cut.

[rcm]

I've heard a lot of Thais telling me recently that their online gambling sites have been targetted because of the World Cup, and all the betting that goes with it.

Isn't it about time they legalized it? There are heaps of casinos already in Bangkok, betting shops, especially near the universities. The lottery - what's that if it's not gambling?

What's wrong with an occasional flutter? Is it any worse than drinking, which instead of being banned is highly promoted!

I hope they don't . I can't see this doing any good to the Country or it's People. Recalling the time back in SA it was not too long ago when they built the first legal Casinos. They where very well visited (and still are). A great amount of these visitors spent all they ever owned in Casinos .

I think the highest percentage of Casino Visitors there have low incomes anbd hoped of the big win .

Having lost evrtything in life they had ...they still need to eat and sleep somewhere. Jobs aren't plentyful either there ...so the next logical step is often their way out and either steal or rob and possibly any other criminal activity that make them get on with a Life.

The Asian is even stronger in Gambling(my own opinion) if it is legalized this would only bring misery here....

I do understand that occasional Gambling can be fun....but the "occasional" is the worrying factor. I see the usual Funerals here which take mostly 7 days and after the daily"eveningprayer" they do the Gambling in the Temple....I think that and other activities are enough as is.

rcm

[Scott]

I think the country is a long way from legalizing gambling. I have never been able to figure out why it such an issue, but it is.

I know that even rather young people--teenagers, have an inordinate belief in luck and lucky numbers. They seem to lack the concept of probability in gambling.

I am not much at gambling because I know that according to probability, I won't win very often. I am not opposed to gambling and find it mildly enjoyable at times, but always with the understanding that I won't beat the odds.

[penzman]

I've heard a lot of Thais telling me recently that their online gambling sites have been targetted because of the World Cup, and all the betting that goes with it.

Isn't it about time they legalized it? There are heaps of casinos already in Bangkok, betting shops, especially near the universities. The lottery - what's that if it's not gambling?

What's wrong with an occasional flutter? Is it any worse than drinking, which instead of being banned is highly promoted!

Mildly enjoyable at times? The same can be said of cocaine, opium and other hard drugs, they have similar effects on the brain as gambling does. Some people can gamble reasonably while too many will O.D. on it.

Why legalize something that will bring even more unecessary misery to many and profit only a few...

I managed a bar that had 10 video poker machines and , from my observations, most gamblers become just as bad as drug addicts. Most who won always lost it all again the same evening and more. I even offered a friend severe beatings for 100$ every time he won so he'd have to leave afterwards with 900$ left in his pocket, only to see him lose all again and more. I have talked with him recently and he has now lost everything he owned, hinting that he can't even afford the severe beatings I offered previously.

Edited June 29, 2006 by penzman

[PREM-R]

A state owned casino in somewhere like Phuket or Pattaya which required "punters" to be members (in order to gain membership prospective members would have to show their "foreign" passport) would in theory bring in a huge amount of money to the Thai "coffers". I am sure that the "people of power and influence" are quite aware of this and are just unable to agree on a way of 'syphoning off' sufficient amounts to their own accounts in order that they can allow the creation of such a "beast".

[wamberal]

Many years ago the Government was unable to finalise legislation requiring motor-bike riders to wear safety helmets because there were two opposing factions with different products who wanted to win what would have amounted to a monopoly. This dragged on for years, years, and years.

The only reason that gambling is not legalised in one form or another is (i) too many powerful people are making a heap out of it now and (ii) the Government would have to decide who to give licences to, and who not to. Can't be done. See motor-bike helmets above.

Edited June 29, 2006 by wamberal

[Heng]

Simple, make the casinos free for "foreigners" only and memberships for locals along the lines of some of the private 'entertainment' clubs already in existence (for 1.5 million Baht a year and up). Sure, you'll still get folks who gamble their lives away, but unlike locals, you can send these folks home when they are low on funds.

[samran]

Also, keeping them banned is useful for other purposes.

It gives the social conservative misfits in politics who usually oppose anything a bone to chew on now and then. These are the big haired people who every year say that spaggetti straps shouldn't be worn at songkran by girls and who 'inspect' red light districts which have been cleared out in advance so that they find nothing un moral happening.

In the annual horsetrading of what passes for policy planning here, the government will bring up things like gambling legalisation as something they want to do....the conservatives say "NOOOOO", and the government will say, "OK we won't legalise gambling - but you musn't oppose our plans to do X, Y, and Z".

The reason these social misfits have power is that they appeal to the vain moral side of the Thai character. All Thai's, no matter how down dirty and unmoral they are, like to think of themselves as otherwise, hence a potential power base to be exploited if they don't get their own way.

[tourleadersi]

Gambling can be a lot more financially debilatating than other addictions, for there is no limit to how much you can blow.

If you lit one after another you'd be pushed to get through more than 120 smokes a day = 360Baht

3 Bottles of Sangsom = 480Baht

Enough smack to send you off with the fairies = No idea, but there is only so much you can get through in a day.

Amount that you could bet = They'll take everything, even loan you the money so you can bet some more.

It is a major problem, in Las Vegas they actually have phones next to the ATMs actually in the casinos that give you a direct free line to Gamblers Annonymous.

I'm no saint, I have placed a number of bets in my time (always aginast the result I want, so that if my team win I'm happy, if they loose I've made enough to go out and drown my sorrows). It seems that in a country like Thailand where a fair portion of the population seem to have scant regard for consequences, keeping some form of tight control on gambling is a wise move.

[steveromagnino]

Simple, make the casinos free for "foreigners" only and memberships for locals along the lines of some of the private 'entertainment' clubs already in existence (for 1.5 million Baht a year and up). Sure, you'll still get folks who gamble their lives away, but unlike locals, you can send these folks home when they are low on funds.

True, this is in effect what Poi Phet is at the moment; you need the money to get there, time off etc. Only connected Cambodians can get in.

However the argument of why do it should never be 'because they are gambling anyway'. People have continued raping women/murdering/incest etc despite laws against it so should be legalise that too?

A more sound argument would be that the potential revenue gains outweigh the many social ills that arise from casinos (addiction, gang related activity etc). The experience of Australia has been that at least some of their casinos have been unprofitable so it is not a guaranteed money maker.

Back in my casino working days, the attitude of NZ's casino operator in paying out slot jackpots was 'we get the money back on average in 6 weeks, so it is a promotional investment. Stupid gamblers'. Nice. Really nice business. Not.

Another off the record comment was 'this is an Asian tax, because Asians don't pay tax here, so we get their cash skim from their bakery/restuarant/brothel here at the casino.' Even in NZ, there were gangs controlling the jackpots, fraud with dealers, escorts, shakedowns and illegal money lending; how much do you think there would be here?!

If you've spent time in Malaysia's casino, they can be horrid horrid places. However, if done right it could be arguably an ok thing to have; I would say Phuket is the best location; because requirements are:

- direct flights

- availability of land

- minimal numbers of locals capable of losing their shirts

- available work force

- distance from other casinos

The argument for Pattaya is that it would be ok since it is a scumhole anyway; however I think the distance from the nearest airport (Suvarnabhumi) rules it out - the only reason it keeps on the table is due to the ability to sell Ambassador to the operator as the preferred site and pocket the cash. For every foreign investor buying in Pattaya hoping that the casino is going to bring them riches, I'd say think again. And I've had a few pitch that argument to me. Besides which, Pattaya is a white destination mostly (AFAIK) and white people don't gamble. Asian people gamble.

Realistically, I say it won't happen in the next 10 years; Singapore and Macao make the regional casino market less attractive; we get enough Chinese tourists anyway and if Chang cannot even list then how on earth will the TRT types get the casino through past a very vocal group who want nothing more than to try to stop gambling altogether? Even the pro gambling mafia running the illegal lottery and sports book know that a legit casino could impact them by reducing some of their high roller bettors.

I think we will be waiting a long time before we see some casino scum hole here, but if it does go ahead, it probably should NOT be wasting the Ambassador site; bury it inland near the airport on Phuket, or flick it into the Suvarnabhumi province; after all we want tourists money not locals right?!

[Donz]

IMO gambling should be banned everywhere, but it isnt going to happend, it can be fun, it can ruin lives and the government makes a killing out of it due to the taxes it charges the clubs and pubs etc.

The clubs in sydney ae feeling the pinch because they used to make HUGE profits from gambling, but now the government take about half of it and now they are stuggling.

The machines are programed to make money, so I think its BS.

when you get addicted its hard to break, I used to gamble at sydney casino and won big a few times, it felt really good and i thought this is mad then when I lost a bit I pulled out and dont gamble lots of money anymore.

I have the odd punt every now and then but I wouldnt care if they banned it.

[DeathbyDurian]

From what I've gathered it isn't too expensive to go to the Poi Pet Casinos - 100B bus ride.

And until last year when Cambodia and Thailand got a little heated at each other, you could actually go into the casinos without having to buy a visa. (Correct me if this is still possible)

So, if Thais are really interested in Gambling they only have to zip over to Cambodia, pay 2000B for a visa and gamble their hearts out. Seems like a good enough system to me.

If you are Thai and aren't willing (or can't afford) to spend 2000B on travelling expenses to gamble, then you shouldn't be gambling in the first place.

[GuestHouse]

Let's hope the Thai government have the sense to look elsewhere...ie the UK.

Tony and his cronies are in the process of liberlizing gambling in the UK.

Organizations who work with gambling related problems are warning that this will give rise to an inevitable increase in Gambling Addiction, Gambling Debts, Poverty, Family Breakdown.

Groups such as the Salvation Army and the Rowntree Trust, who were involved in the campaign to control gambling back at the end of the 19C are publishing forcasts of the problems they see arising from their historical record and long experience in this particualar area of social problems.

The UK government acknowledges there is 'some risk' and promise to fund assisatance out of the increased taxes gambling will generate. (A bit like the way they are dealing with the increased problems arising from the liberalization of Alcohol Sales over the last ten years).

Let's sit back and watch what happens in the UK first.

[penzman]

Forgot to add that most gamblers will always brag about how much they've won but will never tell you that the 20,000$ they raked in actually cost them 50,000$.

[tourleadersi]

Simple, make the casinos free for "foreigners" only and memberships for locals along the lines of some of the private 'entertainment' clubs already in existence (for 1.5 million Baht a year and up). Sure, you'll still get folks who gamble their lives away, but unlike locals, you can send these folks home when they are low on funds.

... Besides which, Pattaya is a white destination mostly (AFAIK) and white people don't gamble. Asian people gamble.

Whilst I whole heartedly agree with most of what you say I can't see how you can say the above. I am sure that if you took the number of whites in Thailand and measured it up against the number of Thais who gamble, as a ration there probably wouldn't be much difference. If white people don't gamble then why bother to put the casino in Phuket? Kind of like taking sand to the Arabs. I'm sure Las Vegas, Atlantic City etc would argue your point more eloquently than I could.

[Donz]

Simple, make the casinos free for "foreigners" only and memberships for locals along the lines of some of the private 'entertainment' clubs already in existence (for 1.5 million Baht a year and up). Sure, you'll still get folks who gamble their lives away, but unlike locals, you can send these folks home when they are low on funds.

... Besides which, Pattaya is a white destination mostly (AFAIK) and white people don't gamble. Asian people gamble.

Whilst I whole heartedly agree with most of what you say I can't see how you can say the above. I am sure that if you took the number of whites in Thailand and measured it up against the number of Thais who gamble, as a ration there probably wouldn't be much difference. If white people don't gamble then why bother to put the casino in Phuket? Kind of like taking sand to the Arabs. I'm sure Las Vegas, Atlantic City etc would argue your point more eloquently than I could.

WHite people do gamble, but not as much as asians do, there is casino's in places all around the world dominated by white people, you do to clubs out in the sticks in australia and there is white people gambling.

It sounds like your trying to say that you shouldnt put a casino in Pattaya because there is no asians there which i think is incorrect, there is plenty of asians there and around Pattaya. Or am I just blind or something

Personally I say ban gambling everywhere

[barryofthailand]

In Thailand The majority of the Thai peaple do not have the funds to gamble, and the government has concerns that people will gamble leaving them with little or no money to buy food, which would increase crime.

[PREM-R]

In Thailand The majority of the Thai peaple do not have the funds to gamble, and the government has concerns that people will gamble leaving them with little or no money to buy food, which would increase crime.

Here in rural Isaan the majority of the people DO gamble, the mobile phones are "on fire" during the world cup games as the guys phone in their wagers for first scorer, final score, time of first goal etc.

[britmaveric]

Some thais have enough problems with gambling - I don't think they need casinos!

[tourleadersi]

Simple, make the casinos free for "foreigners" only and memberships for locals along the lines of some of the private 'entertainment' clubs already in existence (for 1.5 million Baht a year and up). Sure, you'll still get folks who gamble their lives away, but unlike locals, you can send these folks home when they are low on funds.

... Besides which, Pattaya is a white destination mostly (AFAIK) and white people don't gamble. Asian people gamble.

Whilst I whole heartedly agree with most of what you say I can't see how you can say the above. I am sure that if you took the number of whites in Thailand and measured it up against the number of Thais who gamble, as a ration there probably wouldn't be much difference. If white people don't gamble then why bother to put the casino in Phuket? Kind of like taking sand to the Arabs. I'm sure Las Vegas, Atlantic City etc would argue your point more eloquently than I could.

WHite people do gamble, but not as much as asians do, there is casino's in places all around the world dominated by white people, you do to clubs out in the sticks in australia and there is white people gambling.

It sounds like your trying to say that you shouldnt put a casino in Pattaya because there is no asians there which i think is incorrect, there is plenty of asians there and around Pattaya. Or am I just blind or something

Personally I say ban gambling everywhere

I think if you have to put a casino anywhere, Pattaya should be it. Personally I don't feel that Thailand needs to have a casino on its own soil. It already has so much to entertain us with, please leave us at least one reason to occassionally venture out of the country!

[Stephen Cleary]

Will they ever legalize gambling?

Actually, there is quite a lot of legalized gambling in Thailand. Lets have a look at some:

The most famous of all: The Government Lottery

SMS 6 baht a call gambling on the World Cup: Every TV Station at the moment.

Legal gambling on boxing: At major venues such as Lumphini and Ratchadamoern

Legal gambling on horse racing: within the stadium

Let's look at the hypocrisy surrounding this SMS 6 baht a call on the World Cup at the moment on TV. Win 100,000 bahts worth of gold, a brand new car, 50,000 cash every day, 1,000,000 baht winner on the World Cup!!! Next, within 2 minutes of these adverts asking us to legally gamble on the football, we have some famous monk on the TV telling us how sinful it is to gamble!

Products galore ask us to buy their products, send in the coupons and win tens of thousands if not millions of Baht (Oishi Green Tea is a classic example) is this not gambling too?

Edited June 30, 2006 by stevesuphan

[Stephen Cleary]

sorry double post. pls delete

Edited June 30, 2006 by stevesuphan

[tourleadersi]

Will they ever legalize gambling?

Actually, there is quite a lot of legalized gambling in Thailand. Lets have a look at some:

The most famous of all: The Government Lottery

SMS 6 baht a call gambling on the World Cup: Every TV Station at the moment.

Legal gambling on boxing: At major venues such as Lumphini and Ratchadamoern

Legal gambling on horse racing: within the stadium

Let's look at the hypocrisy surrounding this SMS 6 baht a call on the World Cup at the moment on TV. Win 100,000 bahts worth of gold, a brand new car, 50,000 cash every day, 1,000,000 baht winner on the World Cup!!! Next, within 2 minutes of these adverts asking us to legally gamble on the football, we have some famous monk on the TV telling us how sinful it is to gamble!

Products galore ask us to buy their products, send in the coupons and win tens of thousands if not millions of Baht (Oishi Green Tea is a classic example) is this not gambling too?

Getting on a motorbike in Bangkok. Another form of gambling.

[King Dong]

Internet gambling can never be completely banned, you can easily do in a GBP10k Platinum card in one evening online without so much as handing over a note or swiping the card.

People who may develop a problem with gambling are much more easily monitored/helped in a casino environment

Edited July 4, 2006 by King Dong

[Neeranam]

Is internet gambling by foriegners, using bank accounts from their own countries, actually illegal????

I know many who do it and would really like to know what the law says, so I can warn them of the risk, if there is indeed one.

[chownah]

I believe that just because a few people have a psychological problem with some activity that is not a good enough reason to ban it for everyone else. The more gambling is allowed the easier it will be to identify those people who have a gambling problem and the easier it will be for them to get treatment. As it is most of these people gamble anyway and since its illegal they tend to not admit their problem to anyone and so they don't get help. You can't stop gambling....it can be done anywhere..even in jail..whose cockroach is fastest? Peope have a right to destroy themselves in whatever way they choose.

Edited July 4, 2006 by chownah

[Neeranam]

I believe that just because a few people have a psychological problem with some activity that is not a good enough reason to ban it for everyone else. The more gambling is allowed the easier it will be to identify those people who have a gambling problem and the easier it will be for them to get treatment. As it is most of these people gamble anyway and since its illegal they tend to not admit their problem to anyone and so they don't get help. You can't stop gambling....it can be done anywhere..even in jail..whose cockroach is fastest? Peope have a right to destroy themselves in whatever way they choose.

I agree with all of that Chownah.

Is internet gambling by foriegners, using bank accounts from their own countries, actually illegal????

I found out today that it is not illegal, but I'm sure that they could pin something on you.

[steveromagnino]

I said....

... Besides which, Pattaya is a white destination mostly (AFAIK) and white people don't gamble. Asian people gamble.

YOu said...

Whilst I whole heartedly agree with most of what you say I can't see how you can say the above. I am sure that if you took the number of whites in Thailand and measured it up against the number of Thais who gamble, as a ration there probably wouldn't be much difference. If white people don't gamble then why bother to put the casino in Phuket? Kind of like taking sand to the Arabs. I'm sure Las Vegas, Atlantic City etc would argue your point more eloquently than I could.

I worked in the gaming industry in New Zealand for Harrahs/Sky City briefly, and our former company secretary became CEO of Sky City. I make the comment regarding gambling propensity based on my own work experience; that in a city with perhaps at that time less than 5% Asian population, less than 15% other 'non white' population; 80% of the white people living in NZ and adding in that certainly white tourists were as numerous as Asian tourists; that much of the time 60-70% of the casino patrons were Asian. At times 100% of the VIP rooms were Asian.

So let me tone it down and say while some White people do gamble, the majority of the casino industry in Australia and NZ is supported by Asian money (both locals and tourists), which is another reason why they had so many problems following 1997, when Asian tourists stopped dropping big money there. Las Vegas certainly is also somewhat reliant on Asians to some extents, but has a much better offering and a much larger population to draw from; plus it began the whole gambling thing. People of Chinese descent in particular have a higher proportion willing to gamble, and of those who gamble, they are more likely to spend a larger amount of money doing so. Of course, in NZ and Australia, the issue of unrecognised income/tax free money and higher average incomes + student money from their parents means they have more money to waste at casinos. There is a reason why casinos overseas salivate when they see my mum walk in, and mostly it is to do with her appearance; they expect she is going to drop some serious cash on a table rather than feeding 5c coins into a slot machine. And for a while, they were right (until she banned herself for a while).

The comments regarding Asians in Pattaya relate specifically to tourists since we are already discussing preventing Thais from entering. Asian tourist arrivals from the countries likely to gamble most have a greater likelihood (at least until recently) to go to BKK or Phuket rather than Pattaya.

You just need to look at average spending per day from the TAT to know that most Westerners in general spend less per day on just about every aspect of travelling here than do Japanese, Indians, Koreans and so on. They may stay longer (on average) but they spend less. Can you really see large numbers of package tourists from say China all going to a casino and gambling for 6 hours? How about large numbers of package tourists from USA? How about England? I am willing to guess the Chinese almost all go and gamble, and most of the westerners either visit briefly or aren't interested at all.

So why put a casino in Phuket? For Asian tourists. Not for locals. Why put it in Pattaya? For western tourists/Asian tourists, again, not for locals.

Let's take the example of Poi Phet. 3 hours from BKK. On any given day you might see 1 or 2 white people. At most 10. The rest are Asian. Malaysian Casino...same. (incidentally, Thai people don't need a VISA currently to visit Poi Phet, and the bus fare of 100b is to cover food on the way; the trip itself is free so long as you have 5,000b of action; free room is 10,000b of action midweek).

Therefore to summarise....building a casino to attract westerners is probably a bit of a waste of time; any casino will be a success here as the 'only game in town' (well only legal one anyway) but focusing on westerners who are less likely IMHO to gamble when visiting Thailand makes Pattaya a worse location than Phuket which at least tends to attract higher spenders and Asians, plus has its own international airport (which Pattaya does not, and Suvarnabhumi is, despite the lying claims of real estate developers in Pattaya, up to 1.5 hours from BKK especially the Ambassador site, depending on traffic).

I still fail to see the benefits of Thailand having a casino at all, and think the money to build one would be far better put to use in a really good massive park or artificial ski field or perhaps the worlds biggest Tom Yung Goong. If Thai people want to gamble, they already have lots of choices; too many choices. And if we want to get more money out of tourists, there are far more useful exciting things we could be doing rather than building some POS casino slum. Additionally, the number of vested interests in making this happen mean a few square faced people will get extra rich, and most of the country will not see much benefit; so what is the point?!

Neeraram & Chownah; it has NOT been my experience in the gaming industry that the casino had any interest in 'helping the addicted' and in fact I can recall that people banned from the casino (by their family) often would still be able to come in and gamble even though they had already been identified as having a problem. The casino took the minimum effort possible to prevent problem gambling, as it is not in their interest to do so, it is the govt's/NGO's job to do so. To believe your 'we will be able to identify who is sick by giving them the chance to get sick approach' is fine, but do you really think that the govt and civil service here is capable of looking after problem gamblers in Thailand, given the impressive track record they have shown to date in caring for addicts of the all the currently available gambling options?!