MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[Jingthing]

I am now near certain the plane was shot down and the shooters were Russian affiliated rebels.

As far as any deliberate awareness that they were shooting down a commercial plane, I don't see the evidence for that, but of course a full investigation is needed (and will probably be blocked by rebel and/or Russian forces).

However, aside from that, I suggest this article for some interesting background on how the conditions developed for this tragedy to occur in the first place:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2014/07/putin-and-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-17.html?mobify=0

What’s far more certain is that Vladimir Putin, acting out of resentment and fury toward the West and the leaders in Kiev, has fanned a kind of prolonged political frenzy, both in Russia and among his confederates in Ukraine, that serves his immediate political needs but that he can no longer easily calibrate and control. Putin’s defiant annexation of Crimea and the destabilization of eastern Ukraine inflated his popularity at home. Despite a flaccid economy, his approval rating approaches levels rarely seen beyond North Korea. But the tactically clever and deeply cynical maneuvers of propaganda and military improvisation that have taken him this far, one of his former advisers told me in Moscow earlier this month, are bound to risk unanticipated disasters. Western economic and political sanctions may be the least of it.

This plane being shot down is one of those unanticipated disasters. Surely, this isn't over. In Ukraine, this is a war. Will it spread? Can Putin stop it from spreading now?

Edited July 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[submaniac]

20 seconds...is too long. I'm trying to imagine what it would be like on that plane and counting out 20 seconds and it isn't good.

[DaveWalsh]

At 33,000 feet? If you are shooting down aircraft at that height it is almost guaranteed to be commercial traffic.

Mind you jihadists are by nature complete idiots.

I've flown in several military aircraft at 33,000 feet - hey, I've even flown chartered commercial jets full of fellow uniformed soldiers at - get this - 33,000 feet. A full regimental movement.

Which is why I said "almost". It's the exception rather than the norm.

Maybe you should just quit with your unnecessarily argumentative posts. It's already been known for military aircraft to fly in that area and 33,000 feet is the standard height.

@Pattszero -- stop being a prat. You really don't know what you're talking about.

[khaosai]

Crashed MH17 flight 'was 300 miles off typical course

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html

yes but why?

because it deviated 300 or so miles to avoid a storm cell in the area. Still within accepted aviation corridor.

Hi,

It would be highly unlikely for this aircraft in this region to be deviating 300 miles due to weather. If the weather in the area was as significant as that then a new route would likely be chosen to avoid that area. That decision would be made by the flight planners or crew.

There are lots of these airway systems (roads) traversing the skies in countries around the globe. Airlines will on occasion plan to fly on different airways across a country. Lots of factors will influence that decision. Airspace closure, significant weather or more favourable winds will be some of the reasons the flight planning department will take into account.

We will never be able to eliminate risk completely in commercial aviation, but most airlines around the globe put safety at the top of the list.

[submaniac]

Well diverting for weather is what CNN has been reporting as the cause for the deviated flight path.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/07/17/wolf-malaysia-airlines-mh17-flight-path-myers.cnn.html

[bkkjames]

Well diverting for weather is what CNN has been reporting as the cause for the deviated flight path.

If they are reporting it, then I guess it must be true...

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[kingalfred]

I do not think that apportioning blame to Putin can be done on the grounds that he 'supplied' the weapons. The biggest arms dealers in the world, US, Russia, UK, Germany, France, China have supplied the arms to almost every conflict, however unsavoury. Are we so quick to blame the US for terrorist activities carried out by Al Qaida using US weapons, or that Saddams acts of barbarity were the fault of the UK, French and US.

The arms business is a dirty business no matter who is selling them. The reason we jail independent arms dealers is that the major arms companies do not like a middle man taking their profits and control of the situation. They lobby governments and we jail independents as the bad guys when in reality the multi-national arms companies are exactly the same - they just have secretary's and sales teams.

The people responsible for this - 100% no less, are the officers, agencies and men who formed the direct chain of events that led to someone pressing the button and shooting down the aircraft.

This is not the fault of MAS, nor ICAO, nor EASA nor whoever provided the weapons, it is the fault of the person that used them. When someone goes into a classroom in the US and guns down 20 kids we don't jail the shop owner that sold the weapons, we blame the guy that went into the class room and killed the kids.

The politicians are playing an even more dangerous game at the moment. The west has great interest in keeping Putin out of Ukraine, but current diplomatic actions will just simply increase his resolve. IF this was politically motivated or false flag then no stone should be left unturned to find out who and bring in the appropriate international actions and sanctions against which ever nation was responsible. IF this were the action of some barely sober pro Russian rebels (or indeed a calculated action by same) then every nation must contribute in hunting them down and making them pay including Russia. But if the tragedy was a result of the latter then politicians need to stop using the deaths of these poor men, women and children to fuel some bigger political game. These people were not part of these war games and their families have gone through/going through enough.

Between them, the US and Russia can determine exactly who is responsible, down to the men that pressed the trigger, if they would stop point scoring and carry out a truly justifiable role as 'world police' on this occasion then the perpetrators would be brought to justice quickly. Putin and the Ukraine should negotiate an immediate cease fire in this area and agree to allow Dutch and/or UN troops in to secure what remains of the wreckage and to offer the victims whatever dignity they can in recovering and caring for the bodies. The pictures of the battered and torn bodies of the children lying in the fields and wreckage on their own is truly heart breaking and should make every politician and war mongerer stop in the name of humanity even if only for two weeks.

.Putin supplies arms and military assistance to terrorist rebels in eastern Ukraine while denying it.He is totally culpable,and comparing it to Western countries selling arms to other foreign countries,in peacetime is frankly contemptible. Russian Federation is a mafia state so no surprise it supports terrorists.

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Edited July 19, 2014 by kingalfred

[Choonpon]

Regardless of nationalities, may the souls of MH17 rest in peace.

World Peace is what this earth needs.

[mrtoad]

Looking at the cargo manifest posted above there were 5 live birds on board. Lets hope they escaped and managed to fly away to safety....

If that was an attempt at humour, it was in verybpoor taste

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[SirBser]

This is horrible, justice needs to be served.

NATO Special forces should have went in and surrounded the crash site immediately. Regardless if this was a accident those who ordered it to be shot down should be held accountable. Most likely there going to run to Russia and Russia will keep them safe. Total BS.

[GentlemanJim]

I do not think that apportioning blame to Putin can be done on the grounds that he 'supplied' the weapons. The biggest arms dealers in the world, US, Russia, UK, Germany, France, China have supplied the arms to almost every conflict, however unsavoury. Are we so quick to blame the US for terrorist activities carried out by Al Qaida using US weapons, or that Saddams acts of barbarity were the fault of the UK, French and US.

The arms business is a dirty business no matter who is selling them. The reason we jail independent arms dealers is that the major arms companies do not like a middle man taking their profits and control of the situation. They lobby governments and we jail independents as the bad guys when in reality the multi-national arms companies are exactly the same - they just have secretary's and sales teams.

The people responsible for this - 100% no less, are the officers, agencies and men who formed the direct chain of events that led to someone pressing the button and shooting down the aircraft.

This is not the fault of MAS, nor ICAO, nor EASA nor whoever provided the weapons, it is the fault of the person that used them. When someone goes into a classroom in the US and guns down 20 kids we don't jail the shop owner that sold the weapons, we blame the guy that went into the class room and killed the kids.

The politicians are playing an even more dangerous game at the moment. The west has great interest in keeping Putin out of Ukraine, but current diplomatic actions will just simply increase his resolve. IF this was politically motivated or false flag then no stone should be left unturned to find out who and bring in the appropriate international actions and sanctions against which ever nation was responsible. IF this were the action of some barely sober pro Russian rebels (or indeed a calculated action by same) then every nation must contribute in hunting them down and making them pay including Russia. But if the tragedy was a result of the latter then politicians need to stop using the deaths of these poor men, women and children to fuel some bigger political game. These people were not part of these war games and their families have gone through/going through enough.

Between them, the US and Russia can determine exactly who is responsible, down to the men that pressed the trigger, if they would stop point scoring and carry out a truly justifiable role as 'world police' on this occasion then the perpetrators would be brought to justice quickly. Putin and the Ukraine should negotiate an immediate cease fire in this area and agree to allow Dutch and/or UN troops in to secure what remains of the wreckage and to offer the victims whatever dignity they can in recovering and caring for the bodies. The pictures of the battered and torn bodies of the children lying in the fields and wreckage on their own is truly heart breaking and should make every politician and war mongerer stop in the name of humanity even if only for two weeks.

.Putin supplies arms and military assistance to terrorist rebels in eastern Ukraine while denying it.He is totally culpable,and comparing it to Western countries selling arms to other foreign countries,in peacetime is frankly contemptible. Russian Federation is a mafia state so no surprise it supports terrorists.

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Contemptible? Wow, Nice try.

I hate Putin as much as the rest but I think now is a time for a little objectivity eh!

You clearly know diddley squat about the international arms trade. Now is not the time or place, but if you would like me to make a list of all the atrocities carried out around the world using western supplied weapons then we would need an entire thread just devoted to that. You seem to think providing weapons during war is worse than providing them during peace time. Why is that? They are all designed for one thing and it is not deterrence, it is war and killing. You think the Russians support terrorists, well that maybe, but do you need reminding that WE support terrorists in Syria and Libya, and just wait till ISIS get going with all their US supplied weapons.

The problem with US and UK et al foreign policy is that it will come back to bite us eventually, such as now, when nobody has even a millimeter of moral high ground from where they can point the finger at Putin. How far back does your concept of culpability go? Perhaps lets take it further back when the West engineered the demise of Yeltsin the drunk, to be replaced with someone like....Putin. Perhaps we should blame the US, UK and French for Saddam's chemical weapons capability, because we gave him all the equipment and technology to do it.

I reiterate, what is important now is not who supplied the weapons but who pressed the button and why. I really hope the reason is it was some pissed up incompetent Pro Russian rebels because some of the other possible scenario's could have very scary consequences for the world as a whole.

Right at this moment, I care not one iota about the Russians and US Governments going head to head to score points, all I care about is that in the name of Human decency, Obama and Putin find some way of engineering a truce for two weeks, so that professional, neutral soldiers can go in immediately to take care of the dead, and return their bodies to the suffering families in the hope that they may find even a tiny grain of peace from that gesture.

So, I am not interested in arguing about who supplied the weapons so feel free to flame away, I am interested in justice for the murdered, their families and MAS. As I said in an earlier post, if we are going to jail the shop owners who sell guns to mass murderers in the States then your concept of blaming Putin is sound. Unless Putin either pressed or ordered the pressing of the button then lets just focus on who did.

[mrtoad]

Top post Jim wish i could give it 10 likes.Interesting how people are not being objective.

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Edited July 19, 2014 by mrtoad

[In Search of Space]

BBC were reporting today that the OSEC investigation team were not being given access to the site. Can the UN send in a force to ensure they have access ?

Apparently bodies on the ground & I hope that reports of bodies being stolen & looted are wrong

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Richard W]

This is beginning to look worse and worse. At first I agreed with the view that it was caused by separatists who weren't aware that there could be civilian aircraft flying around. Indeed, it appears that normally there aren't - the flight was further north than normal, reportedly to avoid a thunderstorm.

Now I find this video on Youtube (enable captions to get the English subtitles) accusing the Ukrainian air force of hiding behind civilian aircraft in the hope that the separatists will shoot one down. Recall the claims that there were two fighters close behind MH017.

Now, recall the claims that there were 23 US citizens on board. If there was another aircraft in that corridor at about the same time with 23 US citizens on board, I will credit this to a multiway foul-up plus murderous intent on the Ukrainian government's side:

1) The MH017 captain lacked the courage to refuse the route

2) The separatists manning the ADU did not realise that civilian aircraft were about

3) The Ukrainian fighters flew behind the wrong aircraft - perhaps someone muddled the aircraft designations up.

Under this scenario, the degree of culpability in keeping the airway open rises from manslaughter to murder.

[kaobang]

BBC were reporting today that the OSEC investigation team were not being given access to the site. Can the UN send in a force to ensure they have access ?

Apparently bodies on the ground & I hope that reports of bodies being stolen & looted are wrong

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

yes how long the whole world fooled by those drunkards rats

they stole the wallets to the dead people,did they?

[chooka]

BBC were reporting today that the OSEC investigation team were not being given access to the site. Can the UN send in a force to ensure they have access ?

Apparently bodies on the ground & I hope that reports of bodies being stolen & looted are wrong

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

being reported in Australian media as well. Russia won't allow anyone in until they have finished their investigation even tho it is not Russian soil. Australian families want the bodies of their loved ones removed but not possible until Russia give the o.k

[Chicog]

BBC were reporting today that the OSEC investigation team were not being given access to the site. Can the UN send in a force to ensure they have access ?

Apparently bodies on the ground & I hope that reports of bodies being stolen & looted are wrong

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

being reported in Australian media as well. Russia won't allow anyone in until they have finished their investigation even tho it is not Russian soil. Australian families want the bodies of their loved ones removed but not possible until Russia give the o.k

Russia aren't investigating. They are doing their best to remove any evidence of their involvement. And probably plant a few Ukrainian bits and pieces.

[MJCM]

BBC were reporting today that the OSEC investigation team were not being given access to the site. Can the UN send in a force to ensure they have access ?

Apparently bodies on the ground & I hope that reports of bodies being stolen & looted are wrong

One day ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

being reported in Australian media as well. Russia won't allow anyone in until they have finished their investigation even tho it is not Russian soil. Australian families want the bodies of their loved ones removed but not possible until Russia give the o.k

Russia aren't investigating. They are doing their best to remove any evidence of their involvement. And probably plant a few Ukrainian bits and pieces.

+1.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24501963/russia-under-fire-for-editing-wikipedia-page-over-mh17-tragedy/

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

[kaobang]

the relatives of the 192 dutch victims are leaving now from Amsterdam to the place of the tragedy

[MJCM]

the relatives of the 192 dutch victims are leaving now from Amsterdam to the place of the tragedy

Not true.

This posted 1 hour ago

http://www.nd.nl/artikelen/2014/juli/19/nabestaanden-nog-niet-naar-oekraine

Meaning Relatives are NOT YET going to the Oekraine

Malaysia Airlines heeft vooralsnog geen plannen om de nabestaanden van de 298 passagiers die donderdag omkwamen bij de crash van vlucht MH17 naar Oekraïne te vliegen. Er bestaan grote zorgen over de veiligheidssituatie in het land. Dat heeft een woordvoerder van Malaysia Airlines zaterdag gezegd. Volgens hem worden in Amsterdam de nabestaanden opgevangen en is er een speciaal team gevormd dat de situatie in Oekraïne gaat beoordelen.

Translation

Malaysia Airlines has no plans in flying the relatives of the 298 Passengers who where killed in the crash of Mh17 to the Ukraine. There are major concerns about the security situation in the country. A spokesperson from Malaysia Airlines said Saturday. According to him, to be in Amsterdam the relatives collected and there is a dedicated team that will assess the situation in Ukraine.

Edit 1: Maybe a Dutch / Belgian Member can confirm the translation ?

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Edited July 19, 2014 by MJCM

[skippybangkok]

Call me superstitious but I will avoid booking a ticket with Malaysian after these tragic accidents.

I'm sure that they are just as safe to fly with as any other airliner, but I will think different about Malaysia airlines from now on...

Your choice is your choice, but these were not accidents and superstition has no part to play in them.

I have flown first class and business with Singapore, BA, Etihad, Emirates, Qatar, Thai, Malaysian and others and whilst the condition/standard of the cabin was down the list in that their aircraft needed an upgrade/refit, the service on Malaysian was the best I have ever encountered anywhere. I have to go to LHR next month and have just booked with MAS in the only show of moral support for the company I can offer them. Until 6 months ago they were statistically one of the safest airlines in the World. Each to their own

LHR via KL? Must be good discount fare

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Edited July 19, 2014 by skippybangkok

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to an Italian news site, in Italian language has been removed. Remember, this is an English language site (except for the Thai language forum).

[kaobang]

the relatives of the 192 dutch victims are leaving now from Amsterdam to the place of the tragedy

Not true.

This posted 1 hour ago

http://www.nd.nl/artikelen/2014/juli/19/nabestaanden-nog-niet-naar-oekraine

Meaning Relatives are NOT YET going to the Oekraine

Malaysia Airlines heeft vooralsnog geen plannen om de nabestaanden van de 298 passagiers die donderdag omkwamen bij de crash van vlucht MH17 naar Oekraïne te vliegen. Er bestaan grote zorgen over de veiligheidssituatie in het land. Dat heeft een woordvoerder van Malaysia Airlines zaterdag gezegd. Volgens hem worden in Amsterdam de nabestaanden opgevangen en is er een speciaal team gevormd dat de situatie in Oekraïne gaat beoordelen.

Translation

Malaysia Airlines has no plans in flying the relatives of the 298 Passengers who where killed in the crash of Mh17 to the Ukraine. There are major concerns about the security situation in the country. A spokesperson from Malaysia Airlines said Saturday. According to him, to be in Amsterdam the relatives collected and there is a dedicated team that will assess the situation in Ukraine.

Edit 1: Maybe a Dutch / Belgian Member can confirm the translation ?

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/19/mh17-dutch-relatives-wait-at-schipol-airport-to-move-to-crash-site/

they are leaving,waiting to leave ..if the news are true

[MJCM]

the relatives of the 192 dutch victims are leaving now from Amsterdam to the place of the tragedy

Not true.

This posted 1 hour ago

http://www.nd.nl/artikelen/2014/juli/19/nabestaanden-nog-niet-naar-oekraine

Meaning Relatives are NOT YET going to the Oekraine

<snip>

Malaysia Airlines has no plans in flying the relatives of the 298 Passengers who where killed in the crash of Mh17 to the Ukraine. There are major concerns about the security situation in the country. A spokesperson from Malaysia Airlines said Saturday. According to him, to be in Amsterdam the relatives collected and there is a dedicated team that will assess the situation in Ukraine.

Edit 1: Maybe a Dutch / Belgian Member can confirm the translation ?

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/19/mh17-dutch-relatives-wait-at-schipol-airport-to-move-to-crash-site/

they are leaving,waiting to leave ..if the news are true

They will go but definitely not NOW, maybe next week or maybe even in a couple of days, and only people who want to go.

Why go now if even the researchers can't enter the area ?

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Edited July 19, 2014 by MJCM

[kaobang]

A post containing a link to an Italian news site, in Italian language has been removed. Remember, this is an English language site (except for the Thai language forum).

someone ask for a source..and i linked the source

i remember this is an english language site,of course

but i translated that news before,

[Pattszero]

^^ They should go home and wait - by all reports that crash site is not ready for mourning relatives. The Dutch government should order them home.

[kaobang]

That is something completely different then your previous post that they are leaving now.

the relatives of the 192 dutch victims are leaving now from Amsterdam to the place of the tragedy

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

not now but in like 30 minutes 45 minutes 2 hours. i never said "now".. is that so different?

[MJCM]

^^ They should go home and wait - by all reports that crash site is not ready for mourning relatives. The Dutch government should order them home.

IMHO The Dutch authorities / Malysian Airlines have asked them to be there

Edit 1: Added Malysian Airlines

Edited July 19, 2014 by MJCM

[Pattszero]

^^ They should go home and wait - by all reports that crash site is not ready for mourning relatives. The Dutch government should order them home.

IMHO The Dutch authorities / Malysian Airlines have asked them to be there

Edit 1: Added Malysian Airlines

I understand the benefit of having a central location where mourners can gather - it shouldn't be at the airport per se. They should take over a hotel and those that need to stay can do so - others should go home and wait. As sure as night follows day the grief index will be made worse as people break down in a domino effect.

As far as possible the families should be in the comfort of their own homes where their own families and friends can attend to them - not stuck in a sterile airport with distraught strangers.

[MJCM]

^^ They should go home and wait - by all reports that crash site is not ready for mourning relatives. The Dutch government should order them home.

IMHO The Dutch authorities / Malysian Airlines have asked them to be there

Edit 1: Added Malysian Airlines

I understand the benefit of having a central location where mourners can gather - it shouldn't be at the airport per se. They should take over a hotel and those that need to stay can do so - others should go home and wait. As sure as night follows day the grief index will be made worse as people break down in a domino effect.

As far as possible the families should be in the comfort of their own homes where their own families and friends can attend to them - not stuck in a sterile airport with distraught strangers.

I am not sure on this (so it could bloody well be speculation) but I guess that also for the NFI (National Forensic Institute) it's easier to have the Familiy Members in one place for DNA Testing. This is of course used when they are called for identifying their loved ones. However again, this could be pure speculation