MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[MJCM]

Flight Number MH17 to be replaced with MH19.

http://english.astroawani.com/news/show/mh19-new-flight-code-for-mas-amsterdam-kl-service-40303

http://english.cntv.cn/2014/07/20/ARTI1405857450432210.shtml

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

Edited July 21, 2014 by MJCM

[Asiantravel]

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

although when Hillary Clinton listened to these questions her response was "What difference at this point does it make?"

[GentlemanJim]

The looting of bodies is horrendous, but remember it is also common place in road traffic accidents here in Thailand. I was told by a guy that used to work on the self appointed 'rescue' teams they would search peoples clothes, bags, bodies and cars for valuables.

The only thing that could have stopped this display of morally bereft disgraceful conduct was decisive action by the Ukrainians to secure the crash site. So much vital evidence has been tampered with or looted that I doubt investigators will find out much more than we already know - it was shot down.

The murder/tragedy is now nothing more than a political toy being used by all and sundry to further their own political agenda's.

I don't call the families wanting their loved ones back for burial, along with precious personal effects, a "political agenda".

Cool it Tonto, who said anything of the kind? Do you just feel like slipping a few below the belt in?

My comment was aimed at politicians, in particular people like this

In a display of insensitivity extraordinary even for a Brussels bureaucrat, a European Union official has told journalists that the downing of the Malaysian flight over Eastern Ukraine "provides an opportunity" for the EU to have "direct contact for the first time" with pro-Russian separatists

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/07/19/Crass-Eurocrat-calls-Malaysia-Airlines-tragedy-an-opportunity

If getting the bodies back for loved ones was the serious intent of politicians, the security cordon would have been in place within 24 hrs and bodies would already be repatriated.

[Chicog]

It's just been reported from Malaysia that:

- The black boxes will be handed over at 7pm BST.

- The train with the bodies has departed for Ukrainian territory, for immediate shipment to Holland.

- The rebels have undertaken to allow full access to the site tomorrow.

[MJP]

The looting of bodies is horrendous, but remember it is also common place in road traffic accidents here in Thailand. I was told by a guy that used to work on the self appointed 'rescue' teams they would search peoples clothes, bags, bodies and cars for valuables.

The only thing that could have stopped this display of morally bereft disgraceful conduct was decisive action by the Ukrainians to secure the crash site. So much vital evidence has been tampered with or looted that I doubt investigators will find out much more than we already know - it was shot down.

The murder/tragedy is now nothing more than a political toy being used by all and sundry to further their own political agenda's.

I don't call the families wanting their loved ones back for burial, along with precious personal effects, a "political agenda".

Cool it Tonto, who said anything of the kind? Do you just feel like slipping a few below the belt in?

My comment was aimed at politicians, in particular people like this

In a display of insensitivity extraordinary even for a Brussels bureaucrat, a European Union official has told journalists that the downing of the Malaysian flight over Eastern Ukraine "provides an opportunity" for the EU to have "direct contact for the first time" with pro-Russian separatists

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/07/19/Crass-Eurocrat-calls-Malaysia-Airlines-tragedy-an-opportunity

If getting the bodies back for loved ones was the serious intent of politicians, the security cordon would have been in place within 24 hrs and bodies would already be repatriated.

Peter Hitchens may well be right then . . .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2698652/PETER-HITCHENS-Mourn-victims-dont-turn-one-tragedy-global-catastrophe.html

Normally I find this man and this rag particularly odious.

[MJCM]

^ can you post the txt please. That newspaper is still blocked here and I dont have a VPN

Thx

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

[Chicog]

Rebels to Give Flight 17 Black Boxes to Malaysia

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Jul 21, 2014, 12:41 PM ET

Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak says the leader of the pro-Russian rebels has agreed to hand over both black boxes from Flight 17 to Malaysian investigators who are in Ukraine.

Najib also said that the remains of 282 of the crash victims currently in Torez are being moved by train to Kharkiv in Ukraine, where they will be handed over to Dutch authorities. The remains will then be flown to Amsterdam.

Najib also said that as part of an agreement he reached with rebel leader Alexander Borodai Monday night, independent international investigators will be given "safe access" to the crash site.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/rebels-give-flight-17-black-boxes-malaysia-24649427?

[cdnvic]

Removed unattributed copyrighted articles.

[wooloomooloo]

Let's pile on the sanctions from both the US and feeble EU. Sanctions and more sanctions. No trade in dollars or euros.

It's the only way they'll learn. Though, I've sympathy for your average Russian.

[sunshine51]

The pro Russian rebels have already handed the FDR's over to the

Malaysians. That said...Malaysia will most likely have to seek assistance

from a 3rd party to obtain the data and interpret said data from the

recorders...read they may have to do this; hard to tell if the Malaysians

have the capabilities. With the Malaysians track record regarding the

missing MH370...what will we, the general public end up knowing from

MH017's FDR's? I presume zero.

BBC link to the handover below...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28413467

Edited July 22, 2014 by sunshine51

[sunshine51]

One other video comes to mind concerning this horiffic tragedy and

it comes from ABC News (USA), the video explains many items that

have been posted on various forums/websites concerning MH17 that

are pure speculation and utter nonsense; such as what happens when

an aircraft encounters an explosive decompression at cruise altitude.

And the video has, to me anyway, an important bit of info from the

past that has a definite bearing on the downing of MH17...this is

the downing of KAL007 in September 1983 and what it took to get

the then Soviets to admit to the shoot down.

In this day and age the intelligence gatherers have better equipment

than they had 31 years ago and more of it perhaps. You cannot tell

me that both the Russians and the US are not monitoring events in

the Ukraine 24/7 via satellites and airborne intelligence platforms

such as the USAF EC-135 & it's variants and the US Navy's EP-3's

and their variants....plus others such as drones etc..etc...etc.

Concluding this sip satang bit of drivel..if the US intelligence community

released radio intercepts of communications between a Soviet fighter

aircraft that shot down KAL007 31 years ago, which confrmed the

shoot down...and the aircrafs ground controllers then why the secrecy

or withholding of intelligence information regarding MH17?

I mean...a dumbed down satellite image or missile launch data would

surely clear the air today regarding just who pressed the SAM's fire

button. The why's will have to be determined at a later date.

The finger pointing blame game has to stop...and so does the politicians

pitiful attempts of "feeling" for the victims families, when surely they feel

nothing. I cannot help to wonder what kind of world we would be living in

today had the flight been....say...United Airlines or Delta Airlines or...?

Link to the ABC video below...the bit about the KAL 007 shootdown

transcript somes in at about 2' 57"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J34ojkRC2c

[BKKBrit]

Watching this...a bit painful with the tragic translation and pronunciation inabilities of the woman, they spend a great deal of time talking about the 'suddenly' appeared target over the site where MH17 descended and gathered speed and eventually impacted. I think they're clutching at straws here - given in the video you see the Singapore and Air India flights moving in opposing direction - you do not see this new target moving. If in indeed it is a jet-fighter, you'd expect to see movement..but this doesn't.

I think what they see as a a jet-fighter is simply the tail or other large flat surface tumbling to the ground. Further, they move onto another subject before showing the gathered media what happened to the unidentified target. Did it speed off in another direction or just disappear. If the latter, then I would think it was wreckage falling.

They're clutching at straws I think....let's see what the American's produce..they keep saying they have evidence that a BUK was fired from rebel-held territory..and I wish they'd show the data they have.

But now with the black boxes in hand, I would be most interested to know what was said...if anything..in the cockpit. Because, although I am not a pilot, I would imagine that the MH crew would mention something appearing on their radar that close to them? Any pilot here be able to confirm that?

[MJCM]

Emotional MH17 Crash Speech By Netherlands Delegate to UN

[Jdiddy]

I would imagine that the MH crew would mention something appearing on their radar that close to them? Any pilot here be able to confirm that?

Airliners dont have radar, apart from maybe some type of forward looking weather radar

They just cruise at their allocated altitude and course, and monitor radio and satellite communications. Collision detection between airliners is transponder based, but if that needs to come into action it means someone has screwed up

[Asiantravel]

What the Media Won’t Report About Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Written by Ron Paul

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/july/20/what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.aspx

[Asiantravel]

According to an authoritative source, two Su-27 Flankers escorted the Malaysian Boeing 777 minutes before it was hit by one or more missiles.

There are still too many unanswered questions about the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH17 over eastern Ukraine on Jul. 17, 2014. Among them, one of the most important deals with the possible error made by the operator inside the SA-11 “Gadfly” (“Buk”) TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar) who did fire one or more missiles against a civilian plane.

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/su-27s-escorted-mh17/

[Chicog]

What the Media Won’t Report About Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Written by Ron Paul

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/july/20/what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.aspx

"Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. "

No s*** you looney.

[Jingthing]

What the Media Won’t Report About Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Written by Ron Paul

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/july/20/what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.aspx

"Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. "

No s*** you looney.

Presidential timber ... not exactly.

[Dutchbike]

The speech of Frans Timmermans minister of foreign affairs of the Netherlands at the UN:

quote:We are here to discuss a tragedy: the downing of a commercial airliner and the death of 298 innocent people. Men, women and a staggering number of children lost their lives, on their way to their holiday destinations, their homes, loved ones, their jobs or international obligations. Since Thursday I've been thinking how horrible the final moments of their lives must have been, when they knew the plane was going down. Did they lock hands with their loved ones, did they hold their children close to their hearts, did they look each other in the eyes, one final time, in a wordless goodbye? We will never know.

The demise of almost 200 of my compatriots has left a hole in the heart of the Dutch nation, has caused grief, anger and despair. Grief for the loss of loved ones, anger for the outrage of the downing of a civilian airplane and despair after witnessing the excruciatingly slow process of securing the crash site and recovering the remains of the victims.

It is fitting that this august Council should take position on this matter and I welcome the adoption of todays resolution of the UNSC, which was tabled by Australia and which the Netherlands co-sponsored. I thank the countries which expressed support for it. I particularly want to thank Julie Bishop. Julie, we are in this together.

Mr President,

For the Netherlands, one priority clearly stands out above all others: bring the victims remains home. It is a matter of human decency that remains should be treated with respect and that recovering victims remains should be done without any delay.

The last couple of days we have received very disturbing reports of bodies being moved about and looted for their possessions. Just imagine for one minute, first to lose your husband and then to have to fear that some thug might steal his wedding ring from his remains. Just imagine that this could be your spouse. To my dying day I will not understand that it took so much time for the rescue workers to be allowed to do their difficult jobs and that human remains should be used in a despicable political game. I hope the world will not have to witness this again, any time in the future.

Images of childrens toys being tossed around, luggage being opened or passports being shown, are turning our grief and mourning into anger. We demand unimpeded access to the terrain. We demand respectful treatment of the crash site. We demand dignity for the victims and the multitudes who mourn their loss.

I call on the international community, on the Security Council, on anyone with influence on the situation on the ground: allow us to bring the victims remains home to their loved ones without any further delay. They deserve to be home.

As we are currently taking the lead in the forensic examination of the human remains, I pledge that the Netherlands will do its utmost to make sure that all remains will be identified and returned home, where ever that home may be.

We will work intensively with all countries and international organizations involved to make this happen.

Mr. President,

I also welcome the setting up of a proper investigation into the cause of the tragedy of MH17, as envisaged in todays resolution. The Netherlands has agreed to assume a leading role in such an investigation, in close cooperation with the relevant countries, the United Nations and ICAO. I am fully aware of the great responsibility we now take upon ourselves and I give you my personal commitment that we will discharge this responsibility to the best of our abilities.

Once the investigation ascertains who was responsible for the downing of the flight MH17, accountability and justice must be pursued and delivered. We owe that to the victims, to justice, to humanity. I call on all relevant countries to provide full cooperation.

My country will not rest until all facts are known and justice is served.

[Asiantravel]

UPDATE 2-Russia challenges accusations that Ukraine rebels shot down airliner

At a briefing in which generals used flashing radar images on big screens in a state-of-the-art conference room, the ministry said a Ukrainian fighter jet had tracked the airliner despite Kiev's assertions that no aircraft were nearby.

"We also have some questions for our U.S. partners," he said. "According to the U.S. declarations, they have satellite images that confirm the missile was launched by the rebels. But nobody has seen these images."

"If the American side has pictures from this satellite, then they should show the international community."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-russia-ministry-idUSL6N0PW3LH20140721

Russia has produced more credible evidence than any other country, while Ukraine has been caught in some very clumsy lies

Edited July 22, 2014 by Asiantravel

[simple1]

UPDATE 2-Russia challenges accusations that Ukraine rebels shot down airliner

At a briefing in which generals used flashing radar images on big screens in a state-of-the-art conference room, the ministry said a Ukrainian fighter jet had tracked the airliner despite Kiev's assertions that no aircraft were nearby.

"We also have some questions for our U.S. partners," he said. "According to the U.S. declarations, they have satellite images that confirm the missile was launched by the rebels. But nobody has seen these images."

"If the American side has pictures from this satellite, then they should show the international community."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-russia-ministry-idUSL6N0PW3LH20140721

Russia has produced more credible evidence than any other country, while Ukraine has been caught in some very clumsy lies

Then Russia is accussed of "clumsy lies" as the alledged Ukranian Su-25 fighter aircraft following at the same ceiling as MH 17 does not operate at 33,000 feet:

• Service ceiling: 7,000 m^[97] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29

Edited July 23, 2014 by simple1

[Chicog]

This is what happens when you leave a crime scene to a bunch of criminals.

http://m.skynews.com/article/news/1305640

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[harrry]

The speech of Frans Timmermans minister of foreign affairs of the Netherlands at the UN:

quote:We are here to discuss a tragedy: the downing of a commercial airliner and the death of 298 innocent people. Men, women and a staggering number of children lost their lives, on their way to their holiday destinations, their homes, loved ones, their jobs or international obligations. Since Thursday I've been thinking how horrible the final moments of their lives must have been, when they knew the plane was going down. Did they lock hands with their loved ones, did they hold their children close to their hearts, did they look each other in the eyes, one final time, in a wordless goodbye? We will never know.

The demise of almost 200 of my compatriots has left a hole in the heart of the Dutch nation, has caused grief, anger and despair. Grief for the loss of loved ones, anger for the outrage of the downing of a civilian airplane and despair after witnessing the excruciatingly slow process of securing the crash site and recovering the remains of the victims.

It is fitting that this august Council should take position on this matter and I welcome the adoption of todays resolution of the UNSC, which was tabled by Australia and which the Netherlands co-sponsored. I thank the countries which expressed support for it. I particularly want to thank Julie Bishop. Julie, we are in this together.

Mr President,

For the Netherlands, one priority clearly stands out above all others: bring the victims remains home. It is a matter of human decency that remains should be treated with respect and that recovering victims remains should be done without any delay.

The last couple of days we have received very disturbing reports of bodies being moved about and looted for their possessions. Just imagine for one minute, first to lose your husband and then to have to fear that some thug might steal his wedding ring from his remains. Just imagine that this could be your spouse. To my dying day I will not understand that it took so much time for the rescue workers to be allowed to do their difficult jobs and that human remains should be used in a despicable political game. I hope the world will not have to witness this again, any time in the future.

Images of childrens toys being tossed around, luggage being opened or passports being shown, are turning our grief and mourning into anger. We demand unimpeded access to the terrain. We demand respectful treatment of the crash site. We demand dignity for the victims and the multitudes who mourn their loss.

I call on the international community, on the Security Council, on anyone with influence on the situation on the ground: allow us to bring the victims remains home to their loved ones without any further delay. They deserve to be home.

As we are currently taking the lead in the forensic examination of the human remains, I pledge that the Netherlands will do its utmost to make sure that all remains will be identified and returned home, where ever that home may be.

We will work intensively with all countries and international organizations involved to make this happen.

Mr. President,

I also welcome the setting up of a proper investigation into the cause of the tragedy of MH17, as envisaged in todays resolution. The Netherlands has agreed to assume a leading role in such an investigation, in close cooperation with the relevant countries, the United Nations and ICAO. I am fully aware of the great responsibility we now take upon ourselves and I give you my personal commitment that we will discharge this responsibility to the best of our abilities.

Once the investigation ascertains who was responsible for the downing of the flight MH17, accountability and justice must be pursued and delivered. We owe that to the victims, to justice, to humanity. I call on all relevant countries to provide full cooperation.

My country will not rest until all facts are known and justice is served.

I saw this on tv and was really impressed. It is the first time for years I have heard a real speech, well written and delivered perfectly. EIther the foreign minister is the best actor of all time and has the best speech writers or he really meant every word he said. Impressive.

[Pakboong]

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

[lovetotravel]

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

Damage control by the US? I've not seen that. This is a disaster that has very little to do with the US, other than the fact the US has the intel to help figure out what happened. Russia is involved in this up to their necks. Lots of info on their involvement, supply of weapons, personnel on the ground, etc. If any one is in damage control, it's the Russians. Big time.

The assumption all along has been the missile was fired from within Ukraine, inside rebel held territory. At least from reliable news sources. Nobody knows who pulled the trigger, but the bets right now are either a rebel or a Russian. Russians are in the mix due to the sophisticated technology. Technology which untrained rebels would never figure out how to operate. It takes a team of 4.

I was also part of the US defense industry for years. Got to work on some amazing projects and visit some amazing sites.

This is a pretty good summary of what's known right now:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/07/22/tsr-dnt-starr-evidence-of-missile-mh17.cnn.html

At 1:45 in the above video, they show the weapons buildup on the Russian border with Ukraine.

Gotta love this. The leader of the Ukraine rebels. A russian, with an interesting past:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/business/2014/07/22/tsr-dnt-todd-pro-russian-rebel-leader.cnn.html

[StasD]

UPDATE 2-Russia challenges accusations that Ukraine rebels shot down airliner

At a briefing in which generals used flashing radar images on big screens in a state-of-the-art conference room, the ministry said a Ukrainian fighter jet had tracked the airliner despite Kiev's assertions that no aircraft were nearby.

"We also have some questions for our U.S. partners," he said. "According to the U.S. declarations, they have satellite images that confirm the missile was launched by the rebels. But nobody has seen these images."

"If the American side has pictures from this satellite, then they should show the international community."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-russia-ministry-idUSL6N0PW3LH20140721

Russia has produced more credible evidence than any other country, while Ukraine has been caught in some very clumsy lies

Then Russia is accussed of "clumsy lies" as the alledged Ukranian Su-25 fighter aircraft following at the same ceiling as MH 17 does not operate at 33,000 feet:

• Service ceiling: 7,000 m^[97] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29

su-25 can operate at 10 000 m but not much time maybe 5-10 mins

also there was another plane if it was mig-29 or su-27 then 10 000 m is not problem

[Spoonman]

Very sad news. 295 people had died.

Very sad indeed. there was 298 souls on board, did they find 3 alive ?

[MJCM]

Very sad news. 295 people had died.

Very sad indeed. there was 298 souls on board, did they find 3 alive ?

Nope, no one survived. 298 on board 298 died.

Sent from my iPad so Please excuse any typos

[Chicog]

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

Watching RT are we?

Funny how those who decry 'mainstream media' swallow every word of Putin-controlled Russian media without a thought.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[laolover88]

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

Damage control by the US? I've not seen that. This is a disaster that has very little to do with the US, other than the fact the US has the intel to help figure out what happened. Russia is involved in this up to their necks. Lots of info on their involvement, supply of weapons, personnel on the ground, etc. If any one is in damage control, it's the Russians. Big time.

The assumption all along has been the missile was fired from within Ukraine, inside rebel held territory. At least from reliable news sources. Nobody knows who pulled the trigger, but the bets right now are either a rebel or a Russian. Russians are in the mix due to the sophisticated technology. Technology which untrained rebels would never figure out how to operate. It takes a team of 4.

I was also part of the US defense industry for years. Got to work on some amazing projects and visit some amazing sites.

This is a pretty good summary of what's known right now:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/07/22/tsr-dnt-starr-evidence-of-missile-mh17.cnn.html

At 1:45 in the above video, they show the weapons buildup on the Russian border with Ukraine.

Gotta love this. The leader of the Ukraine rebels. A russian, with an interesting past:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/business/2014/07/22/tsr-dnt-todd-pro-russian-rebel-leader.cnn.html

Nothing to do with the USA?

Are you on the same planet as the rest of us?