MH17: Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down Near Ukraine Border

[laolover88]

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

Watching RT are we?

Funny how those who decry 'mainstream media' swallow every word of Putin-controlled Russian media without a thought.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No. I'm reading Pprune and as much objective coverage as I can find. And that is not easy to find. Nothing to do with RT!

[Chicog]

Unfortunately PPRUNE has its share of tinfoil amateurs too.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[craigt3365]

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

Watching RT are we?

Funny how those who decry 'mainstream media' swallow every word of Putin-controlled Russian media without a thought.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No. I'm reading Pprune and as much objective coverage as I can find. And that is not easy to find. Nothing to do with RT!

Great if you want to read posts and participate on that site, but please don't post links here. We don't appreciate unsubstantiated rumors. Which appears to be a major thrust for this site.

[sunshine51]

^^^ @ Chicog...

Mainstream media...I was, at one time employed by the mainstream media.

However, this was before social media came along. Today the mainstream

media uses social media for quick access to worldwide stories. And sometimes,

actually many times, it backfires in their faces.

Here is a fresh example....The photo you see below has been depicted on both

the mainstream media and social media as horiffic, tasteless, barbaric etc...etc

...etc; even worse than the Sky News correspondent digging through luggage

of a deceased MH17 passenger which was broadcast live to the world....here's

that photo....

Yes the man above looks like a typical pro Russian rebel seperatist doesn't he?

So...mainstream media gets ahold of this pic and then adds their words degrading

not only the man but the entire tragedy. Sensationalism? Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Regardless what mainstream media used for by lines & captions it left little to many

readers & viewers imagination. In other words...mainstream media ruined this guy

and made all the pro Russian rebels bad guys. Why? Because that's exactly what

Big Government led by Big Coropration wants YOU to believe.

It is often said a picture is worth a thousand words...in this case those thousand

words are all lies.

When in actuality...he is a good guy who displays a true feeling of sorrow for

this horiffic event....You will see him clearly at about 59 seconds into the video

below....

In other MH17 tragedy news...The Malaysian FR recovery team have handed

over the data recorders to the Dutch who, in turn have or are in the process

of handing the FDR's over to the UK's AAIB for analysis.

NB...edit a minute ago to change " to ? and add a capital B.

Edited July 23, 2014 by sunshine51

[Tywais]

Unfortunately PPRUNE has its share of tinfoil amateurs too.

Yes, but they usually get pulled up on it pretty quick.

[Chicog]

True.

Then you get absolute drivel like this.

If that's the site a soil sample will tell soon enough. Doesn't anyone educate these muppets?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10984362/On-the-hunt-for-the-MH17-missile-launch-site.html

Sent from my SM-N900T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lovetotravel]

^^^ @ Chicog...

Mainstream media...I was, at one time employed by the mainstream media.

However, this was before social media came along. Today the mainstream

media uses social media for quick access to worldwide stories. And sometimes,

actually many times, it backfires in their faces.

Here is a fresh example....The photo you see below has been depicted on both

the mainstream media and social media as horiffic, tasteless, barbaric etc...etc

...etc; even worse than the Sky News correspondent digging through luggage

of a deceased MH17 passenger which was broadcast live to the world....here's

that photo....

424.jpg

Yes the man above looks like a typical pro Russian rebel seperatist doesn't he?

So...mainstream media gets ahold of this pic and then adds their words degrading

not only the man but the entire tragedy. Sensationalism? Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Regardless what mainstream media used for by lines & captions it left little to many

readers & viewers imagination. In other words...mainstream media ruined this guy

and made all the pro Russian rebels bad guys. Why? Because that's exactly what

Big Government led by Big Coropration wants YOU to believe.

It is often said a picture is worth a thousand words...in this case those thousand

words are all lies.

When in actuality...he is a good guy who displays a true feeling of sorrow for

this horiffic event....You will see him clearly at about 59 seconds into the video

below....

In other MH17 tragedy news...The Malaysian FR recovery team have handed

over the data recorders to the Dutch who, in turn have or are in the process

of handing the FDR's over to the UK's AAIB for analysis.

NB...edit a minute ago to change " to ? and add a capital B.

Sorry, but that's a shot of a guy who thinks he's religious trying to show some respect for the dead his rebel group just caused. He's carrying an automatic rifle and is killing people for a living. So yes, this picture is worth a thousand words. To show the hypocrisy or to show he feels bad for the destruction he's caused.

I guess it all depends on how you want to look at things. Which is a whole different topic.

[sunshine51]

@ lovetotravel....

Well...I guess you have never been or traveled to a conflict or war zone
have you "lovetotravel"?

How do you know it was "his" rebel group who caused the shootdown?
He also carries a weapon to not only defend himself & his men but also
the OSCE people they are escorting. The man & his men are all armed and
since this is a combat zone & they are soldiers...they darn well better be
armed.

Most combat hardened soldiers wouldn't even think of being in this mans
position amongst the "visitors in the first place regardless of the soldiers
nationalities and/or allegiances. I know this...I was, one time long ago,
a combat hardened soldier and had zero respect for any journalist or
where they came from and who they represented. But times have changed.

Now...we are all free to form our own opinions concerning the man in the
photo and later in the video; after all, this is why I posted it. That said,
pretty much every major mainstream media source has changed their
story about this feller or removed the piece altogether. I'll keep looking
on the positive side that he is actually remorseful. You are definitely free
to think how you wish.

[Pakboong]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

Damage control by the US? I've not seen that. This is a disaster that has very little to do with the US, other than the fact the US has the intel to help figure out what happened. Russia is involved in this up to their necks. Lots of info on their involvement, supply of weapons, personnel on the ground, etc. If any one is in damage control, it's the Russians. Big time.

The assumption all along has been the missile was fired from within Ukraine, inside rebel held territory. At least from reliable news sources. Nobody knows who pulled the trigger, but the bets right now are either a rebel or a Russian. Russians are in the mix due to the sophisticated technology. Technology which untrained rebels would never figure out how to operate. It takes a team of 4.

I was also part of the US defense industry for years. Got to work on some amazing projects and visit some amazing sites.

This is a pretty good summary of what's known right now:

At 1:45 in the above video, they show the weapons buildup on the Russian border with Ukraine.

Gotta love this. The leader of the Ukraine rebels. A russian, with an interesting past:

Perhaps you should catch up with the latest news before you comment. US intelligence has announced publicly that there was no evidence of Russian involvement. That particular point is in fact damage control. We Americans do not like to admit to mistakes.

[chooka]

Australian peacekeepers possible for MH17 site: Bishop

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has left open the possibility that Australian peacekeepers could be dispatched to help secure the MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine.

Ms Bishop confirmed she will travel with the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands Frans Timmermans on Thursday morning to Kiev, to discuss with the Ukrainian Government and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation Europe, the most effective way of securing the rebel-controlled region near Donetsk.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/24/australian-peacekeepers-possible-mh17-site-bishop

[Chicog]

When the US goes into damage control this early, you can bet they have something big they need cover for. At no point did Russia have motive, opportunity, means, nor cui bono. The means points out that the rockets were fired from inside Ukraine, Russia does of course have the means within Russia but that is a big difference. The range limitations point out that the trigger pull happened within Ukraine. An air to air missile is much more likely than a SAM here.

Having been apart of the US defense for many years, they will stick with their original narrative no matter what and ride it to the ground if necessary. Something had to go very badly wrong and to try and police the damage this early is big.

Damage control by the US? I've not seen that. This is a disaster that has very little to do with the US, other than the fact the US has the intel to help figure out what happened. Russia is involved in this up to their necks. Lots of info on their involvement, supply of weapons, personnel on the ground, etc. If any one is in damage control, it's the Russians. Big time.

The assumption all along has been the missile was fired from within Ukraine, inside rebel held territory. At least from reliable news sources. Nobody knows who pulled the trigger, but the bets right now are either a rebel or a Russian. Russians are in the mix due to the sophisticated technology. Technology which untrained rebels would never figure out how to operate. It takes a team of 4.

I was also part of the US defense industry for years. Got to work on some amazing projects and visit some amazing sites.

This is a pretty good summary of what's known right now:

At 1:45 in the above video, they show the weapons buildup on the Russian border with Ukraine.

Gotta love this. The leader of the Ukraine rebels. A russian, with an interesting past:

Perhaps you should catch up with the latest news before you comment. US intelligence has announced publicly that there was no evidence of Russian involvement. That particular point is in fact damage control. We Americans do not like to admit to mistakes.

Link please.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lovetotravel]

I've never said there was 100% proof the Russians actually pushed the trigger. But it's a well known fact Russia is supplying the rebels with weapons. So they are involved. What's being said in the media is there is no proof a Russian was inside the BUK and helped with the firing of the rockets. But they are still saying Russia is intimately involved with this war.

This just out, more evidence:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/separatists-had-buk-missile-system-rebel-leader-admits-1.1876187

A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.

Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

From the horse's mouth. Admitting they had the BUK and it might have been sent back to Russia. The noose is closing.

[Old Croc]

It's being reported that strangers are answering victims phones when called.

[doctorproc156]

But it's a well known fact Russia is supplying the rebels with weapons.

How exactly do you know this? There have been conflicting reports saying that the rebels had captured the missile launchers from Ukraine's military.

[lovetotravel]

But it's a well known fact Russia is supplying the rebels with weapons.

How exactly do you know this? There have been conflicting reports saying that the rebels had captured the missile launchers from Ukraine's military.

Excellent point. It's not 100% known yet. It is entirely possible it was captured by the rebels from the Ukraine military as I have read that a missile factory is inside the area they now control. Good point.

But the Russians are providing the rebels with weapons and support. And there are Russian civilians on the ground inside Ukraine. Here's the self proclaimed PM of the rebel held territory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai

Alexander Borodai lives in Moscow.^[6]

According to Russian media, he was appointed in 2002 a deputy director of Russian FSB State Security at the age of 35, when he held the rank of major general – Borodai dismissed this as a hoax. He currently has a consultancy in Moscow and worked at a major investment fund.

And here's the self proclaimed defense minister for the rebel held territory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

Igor Vsevolodovich Girkin (Russian: Игорь Всеволодович Гиркин), also known as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov (Russian: Игорь Иванович Стрелков), born on 17 December 1970,^[1] is a Russian citizen from Moscow^[2] who commands the Donbass People's Militia paramilitary group and is a key figure behind the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine.^[3][4]

By his admission he served in the Russian FSB until March 2013,^[7] and according to Ukrainian and EU authorities, he is a retired Russian military intelligence GRUcolonel who has previously participated in the 2014 Crimea crisis.^[8][9][6]

[tigermonkey]

Australian peacekeepers possible for MH17 site: Bishop

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has left open the possibility that Australian peacekeepers could be dispatched to help secure the MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine.

Ms Bishop confirmed she will travel with the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands Frans Timmermans on Thursday morning to Kiev, to discuss with the Ukrainian Government and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation Europe, the most effective way of securing the rebel-controlled region near Donetsk.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/24/australian-peacekeepers-possible-mh17-site-bishop

Political grandstanding by Julie Bishop, with the encouragement of her boss Abbott.. So what is the plan ? They will join the Ukrainian army and fight their way into Donetsk, and then secure the area. It would seem more prudent to hold talks with the separatists, but that will never happen under Abbott, whose venom against the separatists and Russia, have left him without that option.

[Asiantravel]

CNN New Day host Chris Cuomo, who's been reporting from Ukraine this week, got into an explosive dozen-minute shouting match with RT anchor Peter Lavelle Wednesday morning, as the two men largely yelled past each other

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ATR-3p_1SHg

[F430murci]

CNN New Day host Chris Cuomo, who's been reporting from Ukraine this week, got into an explosive dozen-minute shouting match with RT anchor Peter Lavelle Wednesday morning, as the two men largely yelled past each other

I saw the interview live. This is pretty much how every conversation I see between Russians and Ukranians go. Emotionally charged, non responsive and a bit irrational on both sides.

Putin and Russia are big boys and able to take care of themselves if they are being wrongly accused or picked on by the big bad West/USA. Lol, the nature of the beast is that Russia blames US for everything and US blames Russia.

Some you thinned skinned, worry wart types need to grow some nads, stop worrying so much about master plots, and realize that regardless of what you think the "West" is doing, it will be okay. Russia has no problem defending itself and getting its versions of everything out to balance out the bs meter.

[GentlemanJim]

CNN New Day host Chris Cuomo, who's been reporting from Ukraine this week, got into an explosive dozen-minute shouting match with RT anchor Peter Lavelle Wednesday morning, as the two men largely yelled past each other

I saw the interview live. This is pretty much how every conversation I see between Russians and Ukranians go. Emotionally charged, non responsive and a bit irrational on both sides.

Putin and Russia are big boys and able to take care of themselves if they are being wrongly accused or picked on by the big bad West/USA. Lol, the nature of the beast is that Russia blames US for everything and US blames Russia.

Some you thinned skinned, worry wart types need to grow some nads, stop worrying so much about master plots, and realize that regardless of what you think the "West" is doing, it will be okay. Russia has no problem defending itself and getting its versions of everything out to balance out the bs meter.

I dont think many give two hoots about the Russians and what they are accused of. Personally my concern is what my Government tells me and being able to believe THEY are telling me the truth, and if not, why not. You put a LoL in your post. I see nothing funny in this situation at all. This is nothing about growing nads, if anything it is getting two superpowers to actually drop their nads and grow up and ensure the familes of 298 murdered people know what the hell has happened to their loved ones. I am sure as a lawyer that in reality you are aware of what the priorities should be, and nation and patriotism is nothing to do with establishing the truth. Lawyers do like truth don't they?

[F430murci]

CNN New Day host Chris Cuomo, who's been reporting from Ukraine this week, got into an explosive dozen-minute shouting match with RT anchor Peter Lavelle Wednesday morning, as the two men largely yelled past each other

I saw the interview live. This is pretty much how every conversation I see between Russians and Ukranians go. Emotionally charged, non responsive and a bit irrational on both sides.

Putin and Russia are big boys and able to take care of themselves if they are being wrongly accused or picked on by the big bad West/USA. Lol, the nature of the beast is that Russia blames US for everything and US blames Russia.

Some you thinned skinned, worry wart types need to grow some nads, stop worrying so much about master plots, and realize that regardless of what you think the "West" is doing, it will be okay. Russia has no problem defending itself and getting its versions of everything out to balance out the bs meter.

I dont think many give two hoots about the Russians and what they are accused of. Personally my concern is what my Government tells me and being able to believe THEY are telling me the truth, and if not, why not. You put a LoL in your post. I see nothing funny in this situation at all. This is nothing about growing nads, if anything it is getting two superpowers to actually drop their nads and grow up and ensure the familes of 298 murdered people know what the hell has happened to their loved ones. I am sure as a lawyer that in reality you are aware of what the priorities should be, and nation and patriotism is nothing to do with establishing the truth. Lawyers do like truth don't they?

Lawdy, no we hate the truth. Governments hate the truth. Superpowers hate the truth. Media hates the truth. Netherlands who is investigating hates the truth.

The plane got shot down. It flew over a war zone. Malaysia air perhaps could have exercised better judgment. No crystal balls unfortunately. Contrary to what some appear to think, I doubt US or Russia wanted this or ordered this. Sad, tragic and airlines will definitely exercise better judgment about flying over war zones in the future.

You don't want the truth. You want/hope for some nefarious conspiracy or coverup to suit your belief system or personal agenda so I doubt you will ever believe anything unless it coincides with your belief system.

[Asiantravel]

CNN New Day host Chris Cuomo, who's been reporting from Ukraine this week, got into an explosive dozen-minute shouting match with RT anchor Peter Lavelle Wednesday morning, as the two men largely yelled past each other

I saw the interview live. This is pretty much how every conversation I see between Russians and Ukranians go. Emotionally charged, non responsive and a bit irrational on both sides.

Putin and Russia are big boys and able to take care of themselves if they are being wrongly accused or picked on by the big bad West/USA. Lol, the nature of the beast is that Russia blames US for everything and US blames Russia.

Some you thinned skinned, worry wart types need to grow some nads, stop worrying so much about master plots, and realize that regardless of what you think the "West" is doing, it will be okay. Russia has no problem defending itself and getting its versions of everything out to balance out the bs meter.

“Russia has no problem defending itself and getting its versions of everything out to balance out the bs meter.”

And all I can say is a it's about time we had balance in the world

It had to happen! The blame game on that horrendous airline incident, Malaysian Flight MH17, has reached the expected loud monotone of pointing fault, lock, stock and barrel at Russia… and, more specifically, to that villain ex-KGB Slav, Vladimir Putin.

http://www.tanosborn.com/columns/2014/brics-time-act-counter-us-destabilization-efforts

Edited July 24, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

CNN New Day host Chris Cuomo, who's been reporting from Ukraine this week, got into an explosive dozen-minute shouting match with RT anchor Peter Lavelle Wednesday morning, as the two men largely yelled past each other

I saw the interview live. This is pretty much how every conversation I see between Russians and Ukranians go. Emotionally charged, non responsive and a bit irrational on both sides.

Putin and Russia are big boys and able to take care of themselves if they are being wrongly accused or picked on by the big bad West/USA. Lol, the nature of the beast is that Russia blames US for everything and US blames Russia.

Some you thinned skinned, worry wart types need to grow some nads, stop worrying so much about master plots, and realize that regardless of what you think the "West" is doing, it will be okay. Russia has no problem defending itself and getting its versions of everything out to balance out the bs meter.

I dont think many give two hoots about the Russians and what they are accused of. Personally my concern is what my Government tells me and being able to believe THEY are telling me the truth, and if not, why not. You put a LoL in your post. I see nothing funny in this situation at all. This is nothing about growing nads, if anything it is getting two superpowers to actually drop their nads and grow up and ensure the familes of 298 murdered people know what the hell has happened to their loved ones. I am sure as a lawyer that in reality you are aware of what the priorities should be, and nation and patriotism is nothing to do with establishing the truth. Lawyers do like truth don't they?

Lawdy, no we hate the truth. Governments hate the truth. Superpowers hate the truth. Media hates the truth. Netherlands who is investigating hates the truth.

The plane got shot down. It flew over a war zone. Malaysia air perhaps could have exercised better judgment. No crystal balls unfortunately. Contrary to what some appear to think, I doubt US or Russia wanted this or ordered this. Sad, tragic and airlines will definitely exercise better judgment about flying over war zones in the future.

You don't want the truth. You want/hope for some nefarious conspiracy or coverup to suit your belief system or personal agenda so I doubt you will ever believe anything unless it coincides with your belief system.

but surely the appropriate time to dismiss the possibility of a cover-up only comes after the evidence has been presented to prove otherwise?

you know just something tangible, as opposed to social media and youtube which is laughable

Edited July 24, 2014 by Asiantravel

[spidermike007]

Perhaps the only real upside to this horrible disaster is the fact that a lot of naive people are just now starting to realize who and what Putin is. Many were deceived into thinking he was a civilized and respectable leader. In reality, he is a thug, with a murderous background. Any man of honor would take responsibility. All he knows how to do is play the blame game. His whole career was about pinning it on others. He continues this charade. But, this time he is busted, on a world stage. The whole world knows who is culpable in this heinous incident. He supplied these fools, trained them, and he must assume responsibility. I bet he is not man enough to do so, more than likely.

Spidermike007

[Asiantravel]

Perhaps the only real upside to this horrible disaster is the fact that a lot of naive people are just now starting to realize who and what Putin is. Many were deceived into thinking he was a civilized and respectable leader. In reality, he is a thug, with a murderous background. Any man of honor would take responsibility. All he knows how to do is play the blame game. His whole career was about pinning it on others. He continues this charade. But, this time he is busted, on a world stage. The whole world knows who is culpable in this heinous incident. He supplied these fools, trained them, and he must assume responsibility. I bet he is not man enough to do so, more than likely.

Spidermike007

oooh yes so scary

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/expd/14539539029/

[MrWorldwide]

OK, there are grieving parents and then there's these, er, people ....

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/parents-of-mh17-victim-fatima-dyczynski-say-their-daughter-is-still-alive/story-fnizu68q-1227000549364

After warmly embracing her daughter’s close friend Ces de la Cruz – the lady who had placed a touching memorial to Fatima, remembering her with a coffee cup - Mrs Dyczynski abruptly turned to her and warned with pointed finger “do not talk to the media or anyone or you will be killed from our family. I do not want to see your name anywhere, understand’’ - before grasping her arm and insisting she accompany them into the departure lounge.

Dad does fit my image of the crazy professor to a tee and it would appear that he has science on his side:

Dr Dyczynski said there may have been a remote possibility that she could have been catapulted into the sky, still strapped to her seat and if it had remained intact, may have cushioned the impact of hitting the ground.

He believes the extremely cold temperatures at such altitude of 33,000 feet could have caused a hibernation of the brain which countered the heat of the explosion.

I get that she was their only child, but the other families seem to accept that when a plane is blown out of the sky at 33,000 feet you need to accept the laws of physics and move on. Threatening her friend seems like a particularly nasty slap in the face from where I'm sitting.

[GentlemanJim]

OK, there are grieving parents and then there's these, er, people ....

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/parents-of-mh17-victim-fatima-dyczynski-say-their-daughter-is-still-alive/story-fnizu68q-1227000549364

After warmly embracing her daughter’s close friend Ces de la Cruz – the lady who had placed a touching memorial to Fatima, remembering her with a coffee cup - Mrs Dyczynski abruptly turned to her and warned with pointed finger “do not talk to the media or anyone or you will be killed from our family. I do not want to see your name anywhere, understand’’ - before grasping her arm and insisting she accompany them into the departure lounge.

Dad does fit my image of the crazy professor to a tee and it would appear that he has science on his side:

Dr Dyczynski said there may have been a remote possibility that she could have been catapulted into the sky, still strapped to her seat and if it had remained intact, may have cushioned the impact of hitting the ground.

He believes the extremely cold temperatures at such altitude of 33,000 feet could have caused a hibernation of the brain which countered the heat of the explosion.

I get that she was their only child, but the other families seem to accept that when a plane is blown out of the sky at 33,000 feet you need to accept the laws of physics and move on. Threatening her friend seems like a particularly nasty slap in the face from where I'm sitting.

I read the link. These are just desperate parents, clinging on to the slightest possible hope their daughter is alive. They will refuse to believe she is dead until they have her body in their arms I am sure. There daughter was a good looking girl and a 'space scientist', only child, I imagine they doted on her and put their whole lives in to helping make her the success she was. Very very sad and despite the comments they make, I understand. We all manage grief differently and these poor people have whipped each other up in to a frenzy of disbelief and refusal to accept. Interestingly, as I write there are no comments at the bottom of the news article, I think that is right. These people need to be given space and allowed to make the journey to the crash site to ensure they get some closure.

[spidermike007]

I am now near certain the plane was shot down and the shooters were Russian affiliated rebels.

As far as any deliberate awareness that they were shooting down a commercial plane, I don't see the evidence for that, but of course a full investigation is needed (and will probably be blocked by rebel and/or Russian forces).

However, aside from that, I suggest this article for some interesting background on how the conditions developed for this tragedy to occur in the first place:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2014/07/putin-and-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-17.html?mobify=0

What’s far more certain is that Vladimir Putin, acting out of resentment and fury toward the West and the leaders in Kiev, has fanned a kind of prolonged political frenzy, both in Russia and among his confederates in Ukraine, that serves his immediate political needs but that he can no longer easily calibrate and control. Putin’s defiant annexation of Crimea and the destabilization of eastern Ukraine inflated his popularity at home. Despite a flaccid economy, his approval rating approaches levels rarely seen beyond North Korea. But the tactically clever and deeply cynical maneuvers of propaganda and military improvisation that have taken him this far, one of his former advisers told me in Moscow earlier this month, are bound to risk unanticipated disasters. Western economic and political sanctions may be the least of it.

This plane being shot down is one of those unanticipated disasters. Surely, this isn't over. In Ukraine, this is a war. Will it spread? Can Putin stop it from spreading now?

A 2012 report into Putin’s wealth by the Daily Telegraph, detailed his personal toys, which includes a fleet of 58 different aircraft. The bathroom on one of his planes cost $85,000 to install, it has gold fittings.

His watch collection is valued at over $500,000, he has a palace valued at $340 million on the Black Sea, and a yacht which cost a cool $44 million. Former Russian deputy prime minister, Boris Nemtsov, said that Putin “can be compared with that of the monarchs of the Persian Gulf or the most outrageous oligarchs.”

And the same article suggests his net worth is upward of 70 billion dollars. He has a lot of interests to protect, and most of them are his own!

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[F430murci]

I am now near certain the plane was shot down and the shooters were Russian affiliated rebels.

As far as any deliberate awareness that they were shooting down a commercial plane, I don't see the evidence for that, but of course a full investigation is needed (and will probably be blocked by rebel and/or Russian forces).

However, aside from that, I suggest this article for some interesting background on how the conditions developed for this tragedy to occur in the first place:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2014/07/putin-and-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-17.html?mobify=0

Whats far more certain is that Vladimir Putin, acting out of resentment and fury toward the West and the leaders in Kiev, has fanned a kind of prolonged political frenzy, both in Russia and among his confederates in Ukraine, that serves his immediate political needs but that he can no longer easily calibrate and control. Putins defiant annexation of Crimea and the destabilization of eastern Ukraine inflated his popularity at home. Despite a flaccid economy, his approval rating approaches levels rarely seen beyond North Korea. But the tactically clever and deeply cynical maneuvers of propaganda and military improvisation that have taken him this far, one of his former advisers told me in Moscow earlier this month, are bound to risk unanticipated disasters. Western economic and political sanctions may be the least of it.

This plane being shot down is one of those unanticipated disasters. Surely, this isn't over. In Ukraine, this is a war. Will it spread? Can Putin stop it from spreading now?

A 2012 report into Putins wealth by the Daily Telegraph, detailed his personal toys, which includes a fleet of 58 different aircraft. The bathroom on one of his planes cost $85,000 to install, it has gold fittings.

His watch collection is valued at over $500,000, he has a palace valued at $340 million on the Black Sea, and a yacht which cost a cool $44 million. Former Russian deputy prime minister, Boris Nemtsov, said that Putin can be compared with that of the monarchs of the Persian Gulf or the most outrageous oligarchs.

And the same article suggests his net worth is upward of 70 billion dollars. He has a lot of interests to protect, and most of them are his own!

Spidermike

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Putin basically stole from the common Russian and they know it. They just don't care because they view him as resurrecting Mother Russia from the ruins, restoring country pride, rebuilding Russia to a world power again and they are also accustom to rampant corruption being a part of everyday life.

[Scott]

Some of the discussions are interesting but they need to be tied into the topic of the thread.

[Chicog]

Sad Putin apologists take note:

"Katie Stallard, Moscow Correspondent

They're laying flowers outside the Dutch embassy in Moscow, and with them they're leaving notes.

Again and again you see the words: "Please forgive us." One says: "It's our fault".

There are people here who are genuinely concerned about the direction Russia is heading under Vladimir Putin, but it is becoming increasingly difficult for them to make their voices heard.

On the same day as he promised to do everything to help the MH17 investigation, the Russian president passed a new anti-protest law, increasing the penalty for repeat breaches to up to five years forced labour or imprisonment, or a one million ruble fine."

http://m.skynews.com/article/news/1307119

Sent from my SM-N900T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app