Junta chief pleads for understanding and cooperation

[fab4]

In Friday's announcement #97, the NCPO told the media not to criticize the NCPO, its staff and related persons. Failure means an immediate ban and legal action. Social networks cannot invite or interview former civil servants, scholars, former court employees, independent organizations or former judicial office workers in any manner that can confuse society, create or escalate conflicts, or lead to violence. Also, no one is allowed to post confidential government agency information, including video clips, images or voice recordings. Further all channels must broadcast and inform all viewers of all information issued by the NCPO.

And THAT says it all!

But of course "what his military junta’s is doing is constructive move to bring the country to real democracy."

Freedom of press is such an impediment to real democracy.

True, true, but at least in Thailand the press has the freedom to accept payments from commercial companies to not print, allegedly that is.

Anyway the NCPO pleads for understanding and cooperation. I fear though that with a few posters here that's like talking to the deaf.

Likewise the press has the right to be charged with defamation for reporting on human trafficking . Surely even you recognise that there is an obvious dichotomy when pleading for understanding and cooperation whilst simultaneously effectively criminalising any criticism?

Edited July 20, 2014 by fab4

[djjamie]

I think you will be drinking alone.

I didn't know I was asking if you wanted a drink? I was asking Fang.

Yet I notice you not rebut anything I say?

He probably can't be bothered, given your baiting nature, dear friend.

Nah cause it is too hard. The truth cuts to the bone.

You can't debate it either I see.

[djjamie]

I think you will be drinking alone.

I didn't know I was asking if you wanted a drink? I was asking Fang.

Yet I notice you not rebut anything I say?

I'm still trying to figure out how your reply has anything to do with his post, or anything to do with reality. I'd ask you to provide references for you information, but as you've explained before, and repeatedly demonstrated, you don't reference your information.

If I was to reference every propaganda speech by the PTP and every hate speech by the UDD I could write a book.

As far as replying his post, you are now baiting me.

Read my first paragraph. He stated the NCPO media order and I thanked him and stated why it was in place. Did you jump right to the second paragraph my dear friend?

[ginjag]

It is early days with this military junta. But the General has achieved in a few months what has proven impossible over the last 2 decades (or more).

Why? Because no-one is in any position to oppose him - this is a dictatorship. well, so be it. Since politicians from ALL sides have shown themselves to be corrupt or incompetent, or a combination of the two, I see little reason why the General should even contemplate returning the country to democracy.

Sometimes (especially in Asia), a democracy is not the best option. IMHO, Thailand will be a stronger and more stable country without the meddling of politicians.

Let's keep it as a one-party (army) state. It seems to be working quite well.

If you don't agree, (using the well-worn, ThaiVisa phrase), there is always the exit door....

Well that's where you are wrong thankfully. Unlike the regime, ThaiVisa is not a dictatorship so there is no exit door. There is participation......

Try and hang on to that thought as you familiarise yourself a little bit more with the lessons of history, which tends to repeat itself.

The army NOW is trying to stop history repeating it'self, Good lord we do not want to see the regimes of Thaksin ever again.

Of course you are just talking about military intervention, that is your agenda---get used to the fact you will never see Thaksin back in power, too much damage and in this last 2 months the Thai people have learned so much more about PTP non democratic governing.

Re cap for you guys. No problem when Yingluck was running the shambles...................problem for you when Suthep took to the streets to disrupt your corrupt government...............now because PTP etc., have been humiliated your target is the army, no matter how good they are performing.

Problem for "you" when Suthep........

To disrupt "your" corrupt government.........

"your" target is the army.......

I think you forget who you are. A foreigner who has absolutely no say (and quite rightly so) in what happens here, has no influence and will always be seen as an outsider and who could be asked to leave at a moments notice.

And your point is????

TVF is to air views, You forgot what happened when PTP were not running a democratic government. 'YOUR" refers to the way you portray yourself alongside the ex regime.

I understand with being here 33 years, that I/we posters can do nothing, the Thais are the people that matter natural. So thanks for the useless info about I could be asked to leave at any given times.

Why do you then in the past try to prop up the PTP who governed wrong, when you could be asked to leave at a moments notice??

Putting the attention onto me, when I am encouraging the country to do well. About you discouraging improvements.

Hence the reason to answer the points I made---your in denial.

[tx22cb]

Can't wait for all the "reforms" (which will include the customary immunity deals for all involved in staging the coup) to be complete, so the Thais can vote to their hearts' content, and we'll get to see if the outcome is as the Generals' backers intended.

The longer it takes, the more opportunity that some ill-intentioned people have to leak the Generals' past "dirty laundry" to the media internet.

[rubl]

But of course "what his military junta’s is doing is constructive move to bring the country to real democracy."

Freedom of press is such an impediment to real democracy.

True, true, but at least in Thailand the press has the freedom to accept payments from commercial companies to not print, allegedly that is.

Anyway the NCPO pleads for understanding and cooperation. I fear though that with a few posters here that's like talking to the deaf.

Likewise the press has the right to be charged with defamation for reporting on human trafficking . Surely even you recognise that there is an obvious dichotomy when pleading for understanding and cooperation whilst simultaneously effectively criminalising any criticism?

The press doesn't have the right to be charged with 'defamation', 'injured' people have the right to charge them. Thai law and so.

As for dichotomy, not really two, clearly disjunct parts. It depends on how the 'effectively' could or should be interpreted. Furthermore what is criticism? Part of the pleading seems aimed at trying to make people understand that now is not the time for guardhouse lawyer tactics. Now is not the time for lies and obfuscation on social media.

Of course if the NCPO was to allow all those 'freedoms' (which even 'democratic' governments in Thailand and even worldwide try to curb) then they might just need some more time before stepping aside again. Well, if that's the wish of the (TV) people

Edited July 20, 2014 by rubl

[heybruce]

I think you will be drinking alone.

I didn't know I was asking if you wanted a drink? I was asking Fang.

Yet I notice you not rebut anything I say?

I'm still trying to figure out how your reply has anything to do with his post, or anything to do with reality. I'd ask you to provide references for you information, but as you've explained before, and repeatedly demonstrated, you don't reference your information.

If I was to reference every propaganda speech by the PTP and every hate speech by the UDD I could write a book.

As far as replying his post, you are now baiting me.

Read my first paragraph. He stated the NCPO media order and I thanked him and stated why it was in place. Did you jump right to the second paragraph my dear friend?

But you reference nothing. From what I've read of your posts you never reference anything, you simply make claims, some quite questionable, without sourcing your information.

Regarding the first part of the post you replied to, FangFerang wrote:

"In Friday's announcement #97, the NCPO told the media not to criticize the NCPO, its staff and related persons. Failure means an immediate ban and legal action. Social networks cannot invite or interview former civil servants, scholars, former court employees, independent organizations or former judicial office workers in any manner that can confuse society, create or escalate conflicts, or lead to violence. Also, no one is allowed to post confidential government agency information, including video clips, images or voice recordings. Further all channels must broadcast and inform all viewers of all information issued by the NCPO.

And THAT says it all!"

Your first paragraph was:

"You bet it does and I must thank you for bringing this up. You have inadvertently highlighted the cancerous propaganda and hate speeches full of contempt for the majority that the PTP and UDD have spewed previously to try to divide the majority of the population from the 7% that believe this rhetoric. This rhetoric did not fool the majority though and in fact they have welcomed the "holiday" from it."

How does FangFerang's post about the junta not tolerating criticism have anything to do with your assessment of the PTP and UDD speeches?

BTW, throwing in the figure 7% might make your post look authoritative to fools, but in without some source for the number it will only be accepted by fools.

Edited July 20, 2014 by heybruce

[metisdead]

Posts containing comments that can be construed as being negative about the imposition of Martial Law or the Coup have been removed as well as the replies.

[mikemac]

But you reference nothing. From what I've read of your posts you never reference anything, you simply make claims, some quite questionable, without sourcing your information.

heybruce, you seem to have an infatuation with posting links to webpages, to prove points made.

Are you sorry do you know the fabricator ? He thinks along the same lines, wobbly as they are at times.

You say - .............."BTW, throwing in the figure 7% might make your post look authoritative to fools, but in without some source for the number it will only be accepted by fools."......................

When you say "some source" you are talking about links to websites, right ? The fact is, anyone who believes anything / everything they read on the net is the fool, an ever lesser trustworthy source of information than newspapers. Let's face it, even propaganda spreading paid mouth-pieces like that tool Bangkok Pundit has a blog. Any moron can create a webpage and publish pro-redshirt garbage, does not mean it is true.

Have a look at that toxic site Political Prisoners in Thailand and you will see what I mean, more garbage than a Bangkok landfill. But whatever you do, don't post links to this ridiculous site, it is against current forum rules. Happy reading !

When I want to know how the people who matter, the people of Thailand feel about current affairs, I ask them. I don't take any notice of forum posts or boiler-room fodder.

From what I am hearing from the people, you are pushing s**t uphill.

[djjamie]

It is early days with this military junta. But the General has achieved in a few months what has proven impossible over the last 2 decades (or more).

Why? Because no-one is in any position to oppose him - this is a dictatorship. well, so be it. Since politicians from ALL sides have shown themselves to be corrupt or incompetent, or a combination of the two, I see little reason why the General should even contemplate returning the country to democracy.

Sometimes (especially in Asia), a democracy is not the best option. IMHO, Thailand will be a stronger and more stable country without the meddling of politicians.

Let's keep it as a one-party (army) state. It seems to be working quite well.

If you don't agree, (using the well-worn, ThaiVisa phrase), there is always the exit door....

Well that's where you are wrong thankfully. Unlike the regime, ThaiVisa is not a dictatorship so there is no exit door. There is participation......

Try and hang on to that thought as you familiarise yourself a little bit more with the lessons of history, which tends to repeat itself.

ThaiVisa is not a dictatorship so there is no exit door. There is participation......

Beautiful..Kinda like the participation the Junta are embracing by involving the population with reform. In history they promised to engage the people when discussing reform and the present has shown they followed through with it.

So far the Junta have upheld more promises than the Deputy PM of the PTP, Chalerm.

[fab4]

But of course "what his military junta’s is doing is constructive move to bring the country to real democracy."

Freedom of press is such an impediment to real democracy.

True, true, but at least in Thailand the press has the freedom to accept payments from commercial companies to not print, allegedly that is.

Anyway the NCPO pleads for understanding and cooperation. I fear though that with a few posters here that's like talking to the deaf.

Likewise the press has the right to be charged with defamation for reporting on human trafficking . Surely even you recognise that there is an obvious dichotomy when pleading for understanding and cooperation whilst simultaneously effectively criminalising any criticism?

The press doesn't have the right to be charged with 'defamation', 'injured' people have the right to charge them. Thai law and so.

As for dichotomy, not really two, clearly disjunct parts. It depends on how the 'effectively' could or should be interpreted. Furthermore what is criticism? Part of the pleading seems aimed at trying to make people understand that now is not the time for guardhouse lawyer tactics. Now is not the time for lies and obfuscation on social media.

Of course if the NCPO was to allow all those 'freedoms' (which even 'democratic' governments in Thailand and even worldwide try to curb) then they might just need some more time before stepping aside again. Well, if that's the wish of the (TV) people

So you're quite happy with junta directive #97? It figures.

[rubl]

Likewise the press has the right to be charged with defamation for reporting on human trafficking . Surely even you recognise that there is an obvious dichotomy when pleading for understanding and cooperation whilst simultaneously effectively criminalising any criticism?

The press doesn't have the right to be charged with 'defamation', 'injured' people have the right to charge them. Thai law and so.

As for dichotomy, not really two, clearly disjunct parts. It depends on how the 'effectively' could or should be interpreted. Furthermore what is criticism? Part of the pleading seems aimed at trying to make people understand that now is not the time for guardhouse lawyer tactics. Now is not the time for lies and obfuscation on social media.

Of course if the NCPO was to allow all those 'freedoms' (which even 'democratic' governments in Thailand and even worldwide try to curb) then they might just need some more time before stepping aside again. Well, if that's the wish of the (TV) people

So you're quite happy with junta directive #97? It figures.

You ask a question and without waiting you already assume you know the answer. It figures indeed,

As usual you ignore the parts of my reply which you don't like or cannot use against me.

Now for a moment try to imagine that people can understand something without saying whether they're happy or not happy about what they understand.

Anyway, that's partially what the NCPO seems to try, try to make people understand that it's time to move on with reforms even if that means some TVF posters cannot say what they'd like to say.

[metisdead]

Some more posts containing comments that can be construed as being negative about the imposition of Martial Law or the Coup have been removed as well as the replies.

[rubl]

So let's all join hands and sing praise to the Dear Leader...oh wait, that's North Korea.

But it's the same idea. There's a military government that will stay as long as it wants and, when it leaves, will impose the constitution it wants on the country. Let's all be happy and assume it will work out well.

For your information, there is no military 'government' in Thalland.

As for the 'dear leader' reference, you might have missed a memo. The dear leader had said

"Even Thaksin himself agreed to the cancellation, saying the coup-makers should be allowed to get on with their job of restoring democracy and holding new elections, said Singthong Buachum, who had organised the event for the past four years."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/742225-thaksins-birthday-doesnt-merit-temple-ceremony-this-year/

Edited July 20, 2014 by rubl

[metisdead]

Some more posts containing comments that can be construed as being negative about the imposition of Martial Law or the Coup have been removed as well as the replies.

NCPO: All suspects in lese majeste cases, national security cases, violators of NCPO orders will face court martial

Due to the fluid situation in Thailand and the pressure being placed on the media, Thaivisa will temporarily impose strict limitations on any comments that can be construed as being negative about the imposition of Martial Law or the Coup. Posters will also not be permitted to make references to the royal family.

It is the hope of Thaivisa that this will be a temporary situation. Thaivisa will continue to monitor the situation and it is our wish that in a short while we will be able to less strict in the policy concerning posting. Posts contravening the policy will be removed without notice.

Please exercise extreme care in your posts. The same rules applies to Facebook, Twitter and other social media. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.

Thaivisa Forum guidelines/rules: http://www.thaivisa....tion=boardrules

Thaivisa Forum Admin

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/729064-urgent-notice-to-members/

[bkkstooge]

These NCPO requests (the other one about conveying something) are really kinda understandable, they have been given an undeserved rotten press (J.Head etc...etc...etc.....) by the western media ( and it seems only THE WESTERN MEDIA) and with very few exceptions just about every one of their policies since they started 23-05-14 have been of benefit to the Thai people and westerners living here particularly in BKK. They are just asking for a bit of slack to be cut. Again totally understandable.

[maxme]

These NCPO requests (the other one about conveying something) are really kinda understandable, they have been given an undeserved rotten press (J.Head etc...etc...etc.....) by the western media ( and it seems only THE WESTERN MEDIA) and with very few exceptions just about every one of their policies since they started 23-05-14 have been of benefit to the Thai people and westerners living here particularly in BKK. They are just asking for a bit of slack to be cut. Again totally understandable.

Benefit to westerners living here. Please elaborate...

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[bkkstooge]

These NCPO requests (the other one about conveying something) are really kinda understandable, they have been given an undeserved rotten press (J.Head etc...etc...etc.....) by the western media ( and it seems only THE WESTERN MEDIA) and with very few exceptions just about every one of their policies since they started 23-05-14 have been of benefit to the Thai people and westerners living here particularly in BKK. They are just asking for a bit of slack to be cut. Again totally understandable.

Benefit to westerners living here. Please elaborate...

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Simply put maxme:

Streets safe from bombs bullets

Sh**ar*e taxi driver rip offs reduced

Roads safer

less corrupt cop scams

No protest sites and marches ( which I didn't necessarily disagree with ) blocking roads and causing traffic jams

and there are more....

[maxme]

These NCPO requests (the other one about conveying something) are really kinda understandable, they have been given an undeserved rotten press (J.Head etc...etc...etc.....) by the western media ( and it seems only THE WESTERN MEDIA) and with very few exceptions just about every one of their policies since they started 23-05-14 have been of benefit to the Thai people and westerners living here particularly in BKK. They are just asking for a bit of slack to be cut. Again totally understandable.

Benefit to westerners living here. Please elaborate...

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Simply put maxme:

Streets safe from bombs bullets

Sh**ar*e taxi driver rip offs reduced

Roads safer

less corrupt cop scams

No protest sites and marches ( which I didn't necessarily disagree with ) blocking roads and causing traffic jams

and there are more....

For the moments there are no bombs going off. Bullets always fly in this country, just check out the vocational schools.

The taxi drivers still rip people off and refuse people fares so to me the only difference is that I don't have to wake up to the fanfare of Suthep's loonies praising him as the people's champion every morning nor get stopped by his goons at every junction and BTS station. But thats about it.

The economy has taken a dive. Hardly any tourists or investors but they are still on a frantic building spree, popping condos and malls all over Bangkok.

If you think this is an accomplishment then you and I have very different definitions of what that is.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[heybruce]

So let's all join hands and sing praise to the Dear Leader...oh wait, that's North Korea.

But it's the same idea. There's a military government that will stay as long as it wants and, when it leaves, will impose the constitution it wants on the country. Let's all be happy and assume it will work out well.

For your information, there is no military 'government' in Thalland.

As for the 'dear leader' reference, you might have missed a memo. The dear leader had said

"Even Thaksin himself agreed to the cancellation, saying the coup-makers should be allowed to get on with their job of restoring democracy and holding new elections, said Singthong Buachum, who had organised the event for the past four years."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/742225-thaksins-birthday-doesnt-merit-temple-ceremony-this-year/

Why do you refer to Thaksin as "Dear Leader", and what makes you think I care what he said? I'm posting what I think, and a great deal of it gets deleted. People who want the TV Forum to be an echo chamber will be thrilled--dissent will not be tolerated!

Edited July 20, 2014 by heybruce

[JAG]

""He said the NCPO is now open for people to submit ideas, reasoning that it is difficult to lead to reform in the second phase and implementation in the third phase if each group have not crystallises their ideas."

It is extremely refreshing to see the Junta follow through with their promise to involve the people. To be transparent and to show no hidden agenda. To embrace the population (may I dare say the voters) ideas and incorporate them in the reform. After all the reform is for their benefit, not the Junta's. This fact and this fact alone show the Junta are more democratic than the previous regime ever was.

And how do you reconcile that statement with this:

Order 97/2557 forbids all media operating in Thailand from interviewing and publishing the views of academics, former government office-bearers, retired judges or other people, including representatives from Non-Government Organisations, that may be construed as being critical of the NCPO or its representatives.

Great. So they have broken 1 principle so they can restore 15 in the future.

The PTP broke 14 principles with no intention of restoring them.

So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)

Breathtaking naivety!

Come on then. Name the principles the PTP adhere too?

3 years on this forum and 5 years on BP and not one reply telling me what principles the PTP adhere to except elections. Not one. Only belittling and condescension.

So come on then, break the ice. Lets hear them instead of belittling me?

Perhaps 5 years of banging on about these principles, demanding that people list them for you, only to be belittled and suffer "condescension" should suggest to you that they are not worth the paper on which they may have been printed?

They are irrelevant pseudo academic tosh, and seem to be regarded as such by the overwhelming majority on this forum.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[heybruce]

""He said the NCPO is now open for people to submit ideas, reasoning that it is difficult to lead to reform in the second phase and implementation in the third phase if each group have not crystallises their ideas."

It is extremely refreshing to see the Junta follow through with their promise to involve the people. To be transparent and to show no hidden agenda. To embrace the population (may I dare say the voters) ideas and incorporate them in the reform. After all the reform is for their benefit, not the Junta's. This fact and this fact alone show the Junta are more democratic than the previous regime ever was.

And how do you reconcile that statement with this:

Order 97/2557 forbids all media operating in Thailand from interviewing and publishing the views of academics, former government office-bearers, retired judges or other people, including representatives from Non-Government Organisations, that may be construed as being critical of the NCPO or its representatives.

Great. So they have broken 1 principle so they can restore 15 in the future.

The PTP broke 14 principles with no intention of restoring them.

So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)

djjamie and his 15 principles of democracy, which, to my knowledge, he has never stated. Let's compare the prior government to the present government on some obvious ones:

1. Freedom of speech--clearly better before.

2. Freedom of association--currently five or more can not meet for political purposes, so once again better before.

3. Freedom of press--hands down, better before.

4. Separation of powers with checks and balances--maybe flawed before, but there were separate powers and checks and balances, there aren't now, so once again it was better before.

I could continue, but I think everyone has the idea. Except maybe djjamie.

[rubl]

So let's all join hands and sing praise to the Dear Leader...oh wait, that's North Korea.

But it's the same idea. There's a military government that will stay as long as it wants and, when it leaves, will impose the constitution it wants on the country. Let's all be happy and assume it will work out well.

For your information, there is no military 'government' in Thalland.

As for the 'dear leader' reference, you might have missed a memo. The dear leader had said

"Even Thaksin himself agreed to the cancellation, saying the coup-makers should be allowed to get on with their job of restoring democracy and holding new elections, said Singthong Buachum, who had organised the event for the past four years."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/742225-thaksins-birthday-doesnt-merit-temple-ceremony-this-year/

Why do you refer to Thaksin as "Dear Leader", and what makes you think I care what he said? I'm posting what I think, and a great deal of it gets deleted. People who want the TV Forum to be an echo chamber will be thrilled--dissent will not be tolerated!

Bruce, this forum has certain rules. If you want to play it's within those rules only. No need to complain your posts get removed. If you don't like it, move to another forum which has less or other rules. As simple as that.

[djjamie]

""He said the NCPO is now open for people to submit ideas, reasoning that it is difficult to lead to reform in the second phase and implementation in the third phase if each group have not crystallises their ideas."

It is extremely refreshing to see the Junta follow through with their promise to involve the people. To be transparent and to show no hidden agenda. To embrace the population (may I dare say the voters) ideas and incorporate them in the reform. After all the reform is for their benefit, not the Junta's. This fact and this fact alone show the Junta are more democratic than the previous regime ever was.

And how do you reconcile that statement with this:

Order 97/2557 forbids all media operating in Thailand from interviewing and publishing the views of academics, former government office-bearers, retired judges or other people, including representatives from Non-Government Organisations, that may be construed as being critical of the NCPO or its representatives.

Great. So they have broken 1 principle so they can restore 15 in the future.

The PTP broke 14 principles with no intention of restoring them.

So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)

djjamie and his 15 principles of democracy, which, to my knowledge, he has never stated. Let's compare the prior government to the present government on some obvious ones:

1. Freedom of speech--clearly better before.

2. Freedom of association--currently five or more can not meet for political purposes, so once again better before.

3. Freedom of press--hands down, better before.

4. Separation of powers with checks and balances--maybe flawed before, but there were separate powers and checks and balances, there aren't now, so once again it was better before.

I could continue, but I think everyone has the idea. Except maybe djjamie.

Your defense of the PTP being more democratic by comparing it to a Junta who never purported to be democratic inadvertently highlights that the PTP are not democratic.

Thank you for assisting my argument.

BTW the Separation of power with checks and balances is laughable. NACC budget reduced by 60% a month after the PTP promised to tackle corruption. The UDD and PTP urging yingluck to ignore the courts and NACC rulings.

The NACC is still there. The courts are still there. The checks and balances have not changed. In fact if anything they have strengthened as the Junta have empowered the NACC to scrutinize all projects which the PTP would not allow. In fact the Junta have shown that they will in no way interfere in the checks and balances at all and proved that by allowing yingluck to travel even in light of recent "checks and balances" guilty verdicts in rice cases against her. The PTP respect the checks and balances so much yingluck decided to attack the checks and balances by questioning the NACC's practices three days before the guilty women left for her unelected, accused mass murderer, accused terrorist convicted criminal brothers birthday. What quint words to describe law abiding upstanding (yes yes elected) citizens.

I could continue but I think everyone gets the point.

Funny that a Junta that never purported to be democratic can be more democratic that a government that only spout democracy (well 1 principle anyway)

<EDIT> Freedom of speech - haha. Might want to ask Akeyuth about that? Yes, yes, it was the driver!!!!! In fact the "missing and murdered" outspoken opponents of thaksin under his rule is more than under the current Junta which is currently zero! There were a lot of angry robbing drivers under the thaksin regime heay!!!

Edited July 21, 2014 by djjamie

[trd]

I remember being particularly shocked when Thaksin brutally suppressed the freedom of the press when he was in power. Almost overnight the stories from the English speaking press changed from critical, analytical reporting to stories about elephants and rice harvests. It was remarkable. I wouldn't want to see that happen again.

Edited July 21, 2014 by trd

[heybruce]

And how do you reconcile that statement with this:

Order 97/2557 forbids all media operating in Thailand from interviewing and publishing the views of academics, former government office-bearers, retired judges or other people, including representatives from Non-Government Organisations, that may be construed as being critical of the NCPO or its representatives.

Great. So they have broken 1 principle so they can restore 15 in the future.

The PTP broke 14 principles with no intention of restoring them.

So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)

djjamie and his 15 principles of democracy, which, to my knowledge, he has never stated. Let's compare the prior government to the present government on some obvious ones:

1. Freedom of speech--clearly better before.

2. Freedom of association--currently five or more can not meet for political purposes, so once again better before.

3. Freedom of press--hands down, better before.

4. Separation of powers with checks and balances--maybe flawed before, but there were separate powers and checks and balances, there aren't now, so once again it was better before.

I could continue, but I think everyone has the idea. Except maybe djjamie.

Your defense of the PTP being more democratic by comparing it to a Junta who never purported to be democratic inadvertently highlights that the PTP are not democratic.

Thank you for assisting my argument.

BTW the Separation of power with checks and balances is laughable. NACC budget reduced by 60% a month after the PTP promised to tackle corruption. The UDD and PTP urging yingluck to ignore the courts and NACC rulings.

The NACC is still there. The courts are still there. The checks and balances have not changed. In fact if anything they have strengthened as the Junta have empowered the NACC to scrutinize all projects which the PTP would not allow. In fact the Junta have shown that they will in no way interfere in the checks and balances at all and proved that by allowing yingluck to travel even in light of recent "checks and balances" guilty verdicts in rice cases against her. The PTP respect the checks and balances so much yingluck decided to attack the checks and balances by questioning the NACC's practices three days before the guilty women left for her unelected, accused mass murderer, accused terrorist convicted criminal brothers birthday. What quint words to describe law abiding upstanding (yes yes elected) citizens.

I could continue but I think everyone gets the point.

Funny that a Junta that never purported to be democratic can be more democratic that a government that only spout democracy (well 1 principle anyway)

<EDIT> Freedom of speech - haha. Might want to ask Akeyuth about that? Yes, yes, it was the driver!!!!! In fact the "missing and murdered" outspoken opponents of thaksin under his rule is more than under the current Junta which is currently zero! There were a lot of angry robbing drivers under the thaksin regime heay!!!

Actually you're the one who keeps insisting the junta is as democratic as the prior government. As you put it:

"So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)"

You're really reaching for the rest. Are you really arguing that the press is as free now as it was before the coup? Do you think the junta, which suspended the constitution, will feel constrained by court rulings? Do you think that the junta's method of 'involving the people' is a substitute for elections?

I was correct, everybody understands but you.

BTW, what are your 15 principles of democracy? Do they not include freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of press, etc?

[djjamie]

These NCPO requests (the other one about conveying something) are really kinda understandable, they have been given an undeserved rotten press (J.Head etc...etc...etc.....) by the western media ( and it seems only THE WESTERN MEDIA) and with very few exceptions just about every one of their policies since they started 23-05-14 have been of benefit to the Thai people and westerners living here particularly in BKK. They are just asking for a bit of slack to be cut. Again totally understandable.

Benefit to westerners living here. Please elaborate...

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Simply put maxme:

Streets safe from bombs bullets

Sh**ar*e taxi driver rip offs reduced

Roads safer

less corrupt cop scams

No protest sites and marches ( which I didn't necessarily disagree with ) blocking roads and causing traffic jams

and there are more....

For the moments there are no bombs going off. Bullets always fly in this country, just check out the vocational schools.

The taxi drivers still rip people off and refuse people fares so to me the only difference is that I don't have to wake up to the fanfare of Suthep's loonies praising him as the people's champion every morning nor get stopped by his goons at every junction and BTS station. But thats about it.

The economy has taken a dive. Hardly any tourists or investors but they are still on a frantic building spree, popping condos and malls all over Bangkok.

If you think this is an accomplishment then you and I have very different definitions of what that is.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Heybruce might have a go at you for not showing links for any of this. Just warning you.

just check out the vocational schools.

Your comparing the daily terrorist attacks on innocent people funded by the regime's UDD to kids fighting each other at vocational schools? Seriously? What next? Comparing Iraq civil conflict to school yard bullying!

The economy has taken a dive.

What? Where did you hear this? It is the narrative the Junta cannot control that show it is doing a banging job at restoring Thailand to it's former glory. It seems the "belief" factor is overriding the "fact" factor again with the UDD supporters and logic has lost out again to rhetoric.

Under the PTP and the daily terrorist attacks this year Thailand's gross domestic product contracted 0.6% in the first quarter, marking its first year-over-year decline since the 2011 floods. Political instability has clobbered tourism, business spending and domestic demand for imports. Capital expenditures fell 9.8% year over year in the first quarter, public investment crashed 19%, private capital spending fell 7.3% and tourism receipts dropped 6%, After the coup THD has returned 10% year to date while losing 12% the past 12 months under the PTP. IShares MSCI Emerging Markets Index gained 2% in the same periods. IShares MSCI EAFE Index, tracking developed foreign markets, climbed 4% and 15% in those periods according to Credit Suisse which was reported by the Nasdaq. Can the Junta control the Nasdaq narrative? Don't think so.

• The SET had gained 3.6 percent since the military seized power and in fact going by this graph the SET is climbing like a rock climber on yaba! Junta cannot control that narrative can they? Maybe the SET graphs is in my imagination like yingluck said inflation was? Maybe. Doubt it, but maybe.
• Under the PTP and the daily terrorist attacks proven to be orchestrated by the people you defend the economy contracted by 2.1 percent. The banks forecast a 5.5% growth under the Junta. Are the Junta controlling these economic indicators? I don't think so? Maybe fake news?
• The Thai consumer confidence data dropped month after month during the daily terrorist attacks orchestrated by the people you defend and when the Junta took power it climbed month after month. The Junta cannot control that narrative can they? I don't think so? Maybe this is fake news as well. Fake graphs maybe?
• When you look at the Coincident and Leading Economic Indices, Private Consumption Index, Private Investment Index, Manufacturing Production Index, Capacity Utilization, Housing Price Index, Effective Exchange Rate and Business Sentiment Index here it doesn't really follow you agenda driven "Economy has taken a dive" narrative? In fact these indices indicate a strong robust re bounce after the daily terrorist attacks led by the people you support. Junta cannot control this narrative can they?
• The Thai baht seems to think the coup was a stabilizing and positive end to a deadly stalemate as well as is shown here. Can't see the Junta controlling this narrative either? Can you?

​Your comment shows beyond a shadow of a doubt the strength and success of the PTP ministry of propaganda and shows how the gullible can go against the face of all reasoning and facts and still state the opposite of reality because it suits an agenda driven rhetoric by a failed party run by an unelected criminal.

How on earth you can think the economy did better when there were daily terrorist attacks in the capital of the country than now when there is peace is sign enough that fanaticism is a driving factor in ones ethos when describing current events and if you cannot even reason with facts then how on earth are we supposed to believe anything you say?

<EDIT> Nearly forgot.

You deserve the pigeon award for your "Belief" over "Facts" statements. Congratulations.

Edited July 21, 2014 by djjamie

[djjamie]

Great. So they have broken 1 principle so they can restore 15 in the future.

The PTP broke 14 principles with no intention of restoring them.

So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)

djjamie and his 15 principles of democracy, which, to my knowledge, he has never stated. Let's compare the prior government to the present government on some obvious ones:

1. Freedom of speech--clearly better before.

2. Freedom of association--currently five or more can not meet for political purposes, so once again better before.

3. Freedom of press--hands down, better before.

4. Separation of powers with checks and balances--maybe flawed before, but there were separate powers and checks and balances, there aren't now, so once again it was better before.

I could continue, but I think everyone has the idea. Except maybe djjamie.

Your defense of the PTP being more democratic by comparing it to a Junta who never purported to be democratic inadvertently highlights that the PTP are not democratic.

Thank you for assisting my argument.

BTW the Separation of power with checks and balances is laughable. NACC budget reduced by 60% a month after the PTP promised to tackle corruption. The UDD and PTP urging yingluck to ignore the courts and NACC rulings.

The NACC is still there. The courts are still there. The checks and balances have not changed. In fact if anything they have strengthened as the Junta have empowered the NACC to scrutinize all projects which the PTP would not allow. In fact the Junta have shown that they will in no way interfere in the checks and balances at all and proved that by allowing yingluck to travel even in light of recent "checks and balances" guilty verdicts in rice cases against her. The PTP respect the checks and balances so much yingluck decided to attack the checks and balances by questioning the NACC's practices three days before the guilty women left for her unelected, accused mass murderer, accused terrorist convicted criminal brothers birthday. What quint words to describe law abiding upstanding (yes yes elected) citizens.

I could continue but I think everyone gets the point.

Funny that a Junta that never purported to be democratic can be more democratic that a government that only spout democracy (well 1 principle anyway)

<EDIT> Freedom of speech - haha. Might want to ask Akeyuth about that? Yes, yes, it was the driver!!!!! In fact the "missing and murdered" outspoken opponents of thaksin under his rule is more than under the current Junta which is currently zero! There were a lot of angry robbing drivers under the thaksin regime heay!!!

Actually you're the one who keeps insisting the junta is as democratic as the prior government. As you put it:

"So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)"

You're really reaching for the rest. Are you really arguing that the press is as free now as it was before the coup? Do you think the junta, which suspended the constitution, will feel constrained by court rulings? Do you think that the junta's method of 'involving the people' is a substitute for elections?

I was correct, everybody understands but you.

BTW, what are your 15 principles of democracy? Do they not include freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of press, etc?

Actually you're the one who keeps insisting the junta is as democratic as the prior government.

and isn't it amazing that the comparisons are there between a supposed democratic government and a Junta that is not supposed to be democratic.

Are you really arguing that the press is as free now as it was before the coup?

No? I never argued that. Don't start doing your "taking my post out of context" trick.

Can't actually address my points where i have proven you wrong though and continue to ask me questions to deflect answering them.

May peace and reconciliation be with you my friend. Time to leave the bitter shadows.

<EDIT> Checks and balances are still there. Just keep pounding me with questions though after being proven wrong.

Edited July 21, 2014 by djjamie

[heybruce]

djjamie and his 15 principles of democracy, which, to my knowledge, he has never stated. Let's compare the prior government to the present government on some obvious ones:

1. Freedom of speech--clearly better before.

2. Freedom of association--currently five or more can not meet for political purposes, so once again better before.

3. Freedom of press--hands down, better before.

4. Separation of powers with checks and balances--maybe flawed before, but there were separate powers and checks and balances, there aren't now, so once again it was better before.

I could continue, but I think everyone has the idea. Except maybe djjamie.

Your defense of the PTP being more democratic by comparing it to a Junta who never purported to be democratic inadvertently highlights that the PTP are not democratic.

Thank you for assisting my argument.

BTW the Separation of power with checks and balances is laughable. NACC budget reduced by 60% a month after the PTP promised to tackle corruption. The UDD and PTP urging yingluck to ignore the courts and NACC rulings.

The NACC is still there. The courts are still there. The checks and balances have not changed. In fact if anything they have strengthened as the Junta have empowered the NACC to scrutinize all projects which the PTP would not allow. In fact the Junta have shown that they will in no way interfere in the checks and balances at all and proved that by allowing yingluck to travel even in light of recent "checks and balances" guilty verdicts in rice cases against her. The PTP respect the checks and balances so much yingluck decided to attack the checks and balances by questioning the NACC's practices three days before the guilty women left for her unelected, accused mass murderer, accused terrorist convicted criminal brothers birthday. What quint words to describe law abiding upstanding (yes yes elected) citizens.

I could continue but I think everyone gets the point.

Funny that a Junta that never purported to be democratic can be more democratic that a government that only spout democracy (well 1 principle anyway)

<EDIT> Freedom of speech - haha. Might want to ask Akeyuth about that? Yes, yes, it was the driver!!!!! In fact the "missing and murdered" outspoken opponents of thaksin under his rule is more than under the current Junta which is currently zero! There were a lot of angry robbing drivers under the thaksin regime heay!!!

Actually you're the one who keeps insisting the junta is as democratic as the prior government. As you put it:

"So far on the score board of democracy it is

Junta 1 (involving the people)

PTP 1 (free media….to an extent)"

You're really reaching for the rest. Are you really arguing that the press is as free now as it was before the coup? Do you think the junta, which suspended the constitution, will feel constrained by court rulings? Do you think that the junta's method of 'involving the people' is a substitute for elections?

I was correct, everybody understands but you.

BTW, what are your 15 principles of democracy? Do they not include freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of press, etc?

Actually you're the one who keeps insisting the junta is as democratic as the prior government.

and isn't it amazing that the comparisons are there between a supposed democratic government and a Junta that is not supposed to be democratic.

Are you really arguing that the press is as free now as it was before the coup?

No? I never argued that. Don't start doing your "taking my post out of context" trick.

Can't actually address my points where i have proven you wrong though and continue to ask me questions to deflect answering them.

May peace and reconciliation be with you my friend. Time to leave the bitter shadows.

<EDIT> Checks and balances are still there. Just keep pounding me with questions though after being proven wrong.

"Can't actually address my points where i have proven you wrong though and continue to ask me questions to deflect answering them."

I focus on your most obvious nonsense. However if you insist:

"Checks and balances are still there. Just keep pounding me with questions though after being proven wrong."

Please give an example of a check on the power of the junta, and I'll attempt to demonstrate how you're wrong.

Still keeping your 15 principles secret I see.

[brucec64]

Your defense of the PTP being more democratic by comparing it to a Junta who never purported to be democratic inadvertently highlights that the PTP are not democratic.

Thank you for assisting my argument.

BTW the Separation of power with checks and balances is laughable. NACC budget reduced by 60% a month after the PTP promised to tackle corruption. The UDD and PTP urging yingluck to ignore the courts and NACC rulings.

The NACC is still there. The courts are still there. The checks and balances have not changed. In fact if anything they have strengthened as the Junta have empowered the NACC to scrutinize all projects which the PTP would not allow. In fact the Junta have shown that they will in no way interfere in the checks and balances at all and proved that by allowing yingluck to travel even in light of recent "checks and balances" guilty verdicts in rice cases against her. The PTP respect the checks and balances so much yingluck decided to attack the checks and balances by questioning the NACC's practices three days before the guilty women left for her unelected, accused mass murderer, accused terrorist convicted criminal brothers birthday. What quint words to describe law abiding upstanding (yes yes elected) citizens.

I could continue but I think everyone gets the point.

Funny that a Junta that never purported to be democratic can be more democratic that a government that only spout democracy (well 1 principle anyway)

<EDIT> Freedom of speech - haha. Might want to ask Akeyuth about that? Yes, yes, it was the driver!!!!! In fact the "missing and murdered" outspoken opponents of thaksin under his rule is more than under the current Junta which is currently zero! There were a lot of angry robbing drivers under the thaksin regime heay!!!

"The NACC is still there. The courts are still there."

The following article discusses a fast track project that was pushed through.

http://en.khaosod.co.th/detail.php?newsid=1405581604&section=11

Therefore, the NCPO stated, it is necessary to suspend a number of laws and legal requirements to allow Mahidol University to push forward with the project.

The laws suspended are the 1992 Building Safety Control Act, the 2013 Bangkok City Planning Ministerial Regulation, the 1991 ban on certain types of construction in the area west of Chao Praya River imposed by the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA), and the 2001 BMA Ordinance on Building Restriction.

The NCPO did not explain why the project pursued by Mahidol University was fast-tracked.

Since staging the coup against the elected government on 22 May, the NCPO has assumed full authority of the country's administration, virtually without any check on its power, and has outlawed any criticism of its missions.

Checks and balances seem to have been overridden, and transparency is zero.

However, look like cronyism and patronage are alive and well:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Eight-medial-schools-deals-call-on-govt-to-resign-30224752.html

"The deans of eight medical schools are calling on the caretaker government to step down and pave way for the establishment of the "provisional government". Dr Udom Kachintorn, dean of the Mahidol University (MU) Faculty of Medicine Siriraj Hospital..."