Thousands march for Gaza in London, clashes in Paris over Israeli onslaught

[MJP]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/britain-admits-selling-12-billion-in-weapons-to-israel/5393215

Britain Admits Selling $12 Billion in Weapons to Israel   Data published in a new report from the House of Commons in London states the value of all British military exports to Israel currently being processed comes to £7.9 billion ($12.1 billion).

This data was supplied by Vince Cable, Britain’s business secretary, who oversees the weapons trade.

 

 

 

Weapons, a shameful trade in human suffering. UK should be ashamed.
 

[Steely Dan]

The people of Gaza and The West Bank have no independence. Every aspect of their daily lives is controlled by Israel.

A poll conducted by Israeli public opinion firm Dialog found that the majority of Jewish Israelis think that Israel practices apartheid policies against its Arab citizens and that they think this is a good thing.

Two-thirds of Israeli Jews think that the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank should be denied the right to vote if Israel annexes the area. Half of them want Israels Arab population to be transferred (expelled) from Israel, while a third think that Arab Israelis should be stripped of voting rights.

The majority of the Jewish public wants preferences for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Three out of four respondents are in favour of segregated roads, one in two think that Jews should be treated better than Arabs, and 42 percent want neither to live in the same building as Arabs, nor have their children attend the same schools.

Israeli commentator Gideon Levy concluded from the poll: "Israelis themselvesare openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-wouldn-t-give-palestinians-vote-if-west-bank-was-annexed.premium-1.471644

Haaretz has a tiny readership and is the staple of the far left. By any objective measure Israeli Arabs have a far better situation than just about any minority group anywhere else in the Middle East. If the Israelis are running an apartheid state they are not very good at it.

Incidentally here we have another example of the extremes some leftists go to in order to try and paint a picture of equivalence between Israel and South Africa, or even Israel and the Nazis for the terminally deranged.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4922/no_apartheid_in_israel_lots_of_it_in_the_arab_world




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Edited July 27, 2014 by Steely Dan

[dr_lucas]

 

In 1971 I travelled as a student through Israel and the West bank: an open border was between the Kingdom of Siam and the Kingdom of Lanna: students from all the world, inclusive Palestines: all young persons of the World.
The years later terrorist attacks, rockets, grenades from the Palestines towards the Israëli's In their manifest ( constitution): Israel must be wiped away, the jews driven into the see.
I wonder what would have been the attitude of the USA if Mexico, would behave like that, or on daily bases rockets were lunched from Laos to Nong Kai.
Even the Israelis do their utmost to protect also Palestinian civilians see the statement of a British general at the UN see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlmFc1R8evY&feature=youtube_gdata_player -, sorry, but 100% protection is impossible, especially when rockets are stored in schools, hospitals etc, see UNWRA school even. And you think, this is the only case ? ?
All recourses in Gaza are used for the military and NOT for schools, water supply, electricity etc as.. why should they, US and EU taxpayers money supports that already since 1948

Why do people bring up that pathetic excuse about what would the US do if Mexico or Canada was rocketing them? Fact is, the US hasn't occupied Mexico or Canada since 1948 and driven most of the population into exile. The Canadian and Mexican population aren't mainly refugees in crowded camps. They have no reason to rocket the US.

The reason for the rockets is the illegal occupation and the collective punishment of people that weren't even born in 1948.

Burning israeli flags on the streets of European cities and applauding crowds show that while israel might win the war, it is losing the battle for public support throughout the world.

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

<see the statement of a British general at the UN >
Who would believe any western establishment figure, ESPECIALLY at the UN? They are all pro israeli.

 

 

So you morally justify the shoot of Hamas on innocent Israeli population?
What Illegal occupation?

Last time I checked, the Gazans got their land back on 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

As for the UN, it has been consistently pro Palestinian since the establishment of the state of Israel on 1948.

But don't let the facts get in your way.
 

[Jingthing]

Haaretz does have a small readership but it is popular with an important liberal elite demographic in Israel. I think it's a positive thing that at least some people in Israel are thinking critically about their society. All nations always have room for self examination and improvement. Israel is certainly no different. It's obvious that without the constant threats Israel has been under since it's founding that it would be a much different society, and much more politically left. But that's not how it turned out which given their neighborhood, is entirely understandable. 

Edited July 27, 2014 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

More from the Paris hate fest, I can think of no better demonstration of the folly in allowing mass immigration from the third world.

http://galliawatch.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/july-26-2014-friendly-pro-gaza.html


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Edited July 27, 2014 by Steely Dan

[MJP]

Haaretz does have a small readership but it is popular with an important liberal elite demographic in Israel. I think it's a positive thing that at least some people in Israel are thinking critically about their society. All nations always have room for self examination and improvement. Israel is certainly no different. It's obvious that without the constant threats Israel has been under since it's founding that it would be a much different society, and much more politically left. But that's not how it turned out which given their neighborhood, is entirely understandable. 

 

Considering their tragic history and constantly being under threat by those around, yes, it is understandable and I feel for the Israeli people as much as I do the Palestinians. But both desperately need to find the proverbial olive branch, otherwise this just keeps on coming around with consequences more and more devastating each time.

 

It was a terrible shame when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated.

Edited July 27, 2014 by MJP

[dr_lucas]

 

Haaretz does have a small readership but it is popular with an important liberal elite demographic in Israel. I think it's a positive thing that at least some people in Israel are thinking critically about their society. All nations always have room for self examination and improvement. Israel is certainly no different. It's obvious that without the constant threats Israel has been under since it's founding that it would be a much different society, and much more politically left. But that's not how it turned out which given their neighborhood, is entirely understandable. 

 

Considering their tragic history and constantly being under threat by those around, yes, it is understandable and I feel for the Israeli people as much as I do the Palestinians. But both desperately need to find the proverbial olive branch, otherwise this just keeps on coming around with consequences more and more devastating each time.

 

It was a terrible shame when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated.

 

 

Bloody "You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"...

Big Like!

[MJP]

 

 

Haaretz does have a small readership but it is popular with an important liberal elite demographic in Israel. I think it's a positive thing that at least some people in Israel are thinking critically about their society. All nations always have room for self examination and improvement. Israel is certainly no different. It's obvious that without the constant threats Israel has been under since it's founding that it would be a much different society, and much more politically left. But that's not how it turned out which given their neighborhood, is entirely understandable. 

 

Considering their tragic history and constantly being under threat by those around, yes, it is understandable and I feel for the Israeli people as much as I do the Palestinians. But both desperately need to find the proverbial olive branch, otherwise this just keeps on coming around with consequences more and more devastating each time.

 

It was a terrible shame when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated.

 

 

Bloody "You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"...

Big Like!

 

 

I do love a bit of World peace see. Like most, like your good self I abhor violence and human suffering regardless of what type, kind etc of human being anyone may be.

 

There's simply no need for it. Absolutely no requirement for it.

 

[Morch]

The protests in London and other cities highlight the fact that this is not a war of equals, as some suggest.

Israel remains an occupying force that controls Palestinian lives against their will. Palestinians who do not enjoy the same opportunities, dignity and conveniences of civilian life as people in Israel cannot suddenly be considered as equals in a disproportionate conflict.

Former UK deputy Prime. Minister John Prescott has harsh words for Israel in today's Sunday Mirror.
"Israel's 'brutally disproportionate and grossly indiscriminate' bombardment of Gaza must be regarded as a war crime", Labour former deputy prime minister John Prescott said.
Lord Prescott said any other country would be made an international 'pariah' if it acted in the same way, as the reported death toll from the offensive against Hamas reached four figures.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/john-prescott-israels-bombardment-gaza-3918413

 

I do not think many sources present this as a war of equals, which sort of leaves your premise shaky.

 

There is, however, a some range between accepting that some elements of the conflict are disproportionate and between asserting that therefore no responsibility should be attributed to the Palestinians. They were hardly passive when it came to screwing up their lives. And no, this does not mean that Israel is absolved of all sins, just that there is enough blame for all to share (my personal view is that there is an obsession with placing blame and less conductive effort to resolve conflicts).

 

Something I am still trying to figure out - what would be considered a proportional response, from a military point of view? This is not a baiting question as some suggested, and it does no necessarily express the view that the current Israeli response is proportionate - merely asking what military actions would fit the bill (without getting into the political and diplomatic side of things, which is obviously not going to be resolved soonish). As a follow up question, one which I do not have a clear answer for at this time - Is it a requirement of military actions to be proportionate? (more a philosophical or moral issue, not necessarily to be considered in light of the current fighting).

 

Prescott's learned opinion being such as it is - there are quite a few countries involved in violent conflicts which resulted in higher death toll among civilians, how many of them are international pariahs? With how many of them did the UK cut relationship or anything of the sort? And were things much different when he was in office?

[Morch]

The people of Gaza and The West Bank have no independence. Every aspect of their daily lives is controlled by Israel.

A poll conducted by Israeli public opinion firm Dialog found that the majority of Jewish Israelis think that Israel practices apartheid policies against its Arab citizens and that they think this is a good thing.

Two-thirds of Israeli Jews think that the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank should be denied the right to vote if Israel annexes the area. Half of them want Israels Arab population to be transferred (expelled) from Israel, while a third think that Arab Israelis should be stripped of voting rights.

The majority of the Jewish public wants preferences for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Three out of four respondents are in favour of segregated roads, one in two think that Jews should be treated better than Arabs, and 42 percent want neither to live in the same building as Arabs, nor have their children attend the same schools.

Israeli commentator Gideon Levy concluded from the poll: "Israelis themselvesare openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-wouldn-t-give-palestinians-vote-if-west-bank-was-annexed.premium-1.471644

 

Interestingly enough, even the link provided includes a correction somewhat contradicting your second paragraph:

 

 

CLARIFICATION: The original headline for this piece, 'Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel,' did not accurately reflect the findings of the Dialog poll. ...

 

For those interested in reading more about the poll and ensuing controversy, some more information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2012_Yisraela_Goldblum_Fund_poll If anything, this is a good example of how polls could be construed and interpreted in more than one way, and that it does not take much to manipulate findings and their presentation.

 

Gideon Levy is, even by the standards of Haaretz, a far left wing marker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

 

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

How exactly are they supposed to build anything let alone a railway! It just goes to show how out of touch that guy is with the reality of daily life in Gaza.
The are denied construction materials and equipment plus most of the day to day item we take for granted.

The damage done by the Israeli army can not be repaired without cement which is an item banned by Netanyahu and his cronies.

Nothing is allowed to enter or leave the area without Israel's approval.

 

 

The blockade was not in place to begin with, and it was not brought about out of context, the way some try to present.

 

Obviously Hamas had enough building materials to build an impressive array of underground tunnels and facilities, and the last time I checked rockets were made of metal. Building materials were not always banned, and were declared as dual use materials only at a latter stage. A more thorough ban came into place as things got out of hand.

 

To make things a bit clearer - Israel still supplies the Gaza Strip (yes, even while the fighting is going on) with electricity, water and fuel, not to mention other goods being transported to the Gaza Strip through border passes regularly. One of the main issues was Hamas refusal to accept Israeli inspections of shipments for contraband and dual use materials prior to their delivery to the Gaza Strip. Attempts to find a solution which will satisfy both sides on this have met with failure. For obvious security reasons, Israel will not allow free flow of goods, as long as Hamas keeps upholding armed struggle as the way to go. There is some talk about trying to set up an international mechanism to sort this, but so far no agreements and enough guarantees to make this a viable solution.

 

Israel is also a bit more open minded for PA officials taking part in those arrangements, but with the Hamas/PA split on, this is still not acceptable for the Hamas.

 

Lastly, Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border. A hard point to address without poking a hole in blaming Israel only, but still...

[Morch]

 

 

How exactly are they supposed to build anything let alone a railway! It just goes to show how out of touch that guy is with the reality of daily life in Gaza.
The are denied construction materials and equipment plus most of the day to day item we take for granted.

Au contraire. He is an expert on the subject. They could have built anything that they wanted. THERE WAS NO BLOCKADE until the Palestinians turned Gaza into one big terrorist military garrison. As usual, they ruined it for themselves.

 

Charles Krauthammer is a Jewish right wing pro Israel US commentator and regular on Fox News. 

 

We all know what to make of that extreme right wing tv station! How are the poor Palestinian ever going to repair the genocide and destruction?

 

It is pictures like this that are fuelling the world protests.

 

<snip>

 

What genocide?  Or would genocide now apply to almost every military conflict, wherever?

 

The actions of Israel sure do fuel world protest, words like "genocide" tossed around carelessly serve to keep them burning higher.

 

 

 

[Morch]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/britain-admits-selling-12-billion-in-weapons-to-israel/5393215

Britain Admits Selling $12 Billion in Weapons to Israel   Data published in a new report from the House of Commons in London states the value of all British military exports to Israel currently being processed comes to £7.9 billion ($12.1 billion).

This data was supplied by Vince Cable, Britain’s business secretary, who oversees the weapons trade.

 

 

 

David Cronin is one of the Electronic Intifada editors. I would take most of what he says about the conflict with a grain of salt - http://cifwatch.com/2011/02/25/guardian-journalist-david-cronin-tries-to-arrest-avigdor-lieberman-while-hurling-abuse-at-israel/
 

The sums involved seem huge, considering Israel's military spending, as reported here http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

 

Deals on this level usually involve main battle platforms - not aware of many such of UK manufacture used by the IDF.

[simple1]

 

The protests in London and other cities highlight the fact that this is not a war of equals, as some suggest.

Israel remains an occupying force that controls Palestinian lives against their will. Palestinians who do not enjoy the same opportunities, dignity and conveniences of civilian life as people in Israel cannot suddenly be considered as equals in a disproportionate conflict.

Former UK deputy Prime. Minister John Prescott has harsh words for Israel in today's Sunday Mirror.
"Israel's 'brutally disproportionate and grossly indiscriminate' bombardment of Gaza must be regarded as a war crime", Labour former deputy prime minister John Prescott said.
Lord Prescott said any other country would be made an international 'pariah' if it acted in the same way, as the reported death toll from the offensive against Hamas reached four figures.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/john-prescott-israels-bombardment-gaza-3918413

 

I do not think many sources present this as a war of equals, which sort of leaves your premise shaky.

 

There is, however, a some range between accepting that some elements of the conflict are disproportionate and between asserting that therefore no responsibility should be attributed to the Palestinians. They were hardly passive when it came to screwing up their lives. And no, this does not mean that Israel is absolved of all sins, just that there is enough blame for all to share (my personal view is that there is an obsession with placing blame and less conductive effort to resolve conflicts).

 

Something I am still trying to figure out - what would be considered a proportional response, from a military point of view? This is not a baiting question as some suggested, and it does no necessarily express the view that the current Israeli response is proportionate - merely asking what military actions would fit the bill (without getting into the political and diplomatic side of things, which is obviously not going to be resolved soonish). As a follow up question, one which I do not have a clear answer for at this time - Is it a requirement of military actions to be proportionate? (more a philosophical or moral issue, not necessarily to be considered in light of the current fighting).

 

Prescott's learned opinion being such as it is - there are quite a few countries involved in violent conflicts which resulted in higher death toll among civilians, how many of them are international pariahs? With how many of them did the UK cut relationship or anything of the sort? And were things much different when he was in office?

 

 

 

A good question & worthy of a stand alone topic- Mods?

 

Coming up to the end of WW11 and immediately after there was some introspection on proportional response, mainly due to the policy of carpet bombing (Terror bombing) of cities. Unsure what if any actual changes to military doctrine occurred

 

I believe the concept of military proportional response has been severely degraded as one of the outcomes of “The War on Terror” with, in my opinion, the unnecessary deployment of excessive fire power in populated areas, whether it is carpet bombing (interdiction), villages, towns or cities..

 

There are legal principles under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, amongst others providing oversight and the possibility of legal action. One of the issues, by some countries, is not permitting their armed forces to be subject to legal action by foreign or international courts or putting in-place significant politically motivated obstructions to due process.

 

Perhaps the following quote provides some context (provides plenty of wiggle room for those claiming they are complying with the principle of proportionality) from the URL below.

 

“an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage”

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_%28law%29

Edited July 28, 2014 by simple1

[Scott]

If you wish to have a separate topic then you will have to start in one of the private forums.   It is not a news event.  

 

if you are going to use historical parallels and date, please make sure that you tie it into the current situation.  

 

 

[uptheos]

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

[simple1]

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

In no way defending Hamas, but please confirm which political party leaders really put themselves in harms way during war. Maybe a few, but not a common practise is it?

Edited July 28, 2014 by simple1

[Scott]

A troll post has been deleted along with a reply.  

[thaibeachlovers]

 

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

In no way defending Hamas, but please confirm which political party leaders really put themselves in harms way during war. Maybe a few, but not a common practise is it?

 

Not only political leaders, but also the generals and men behind the scenes pulling the strings as they send young men to die for old men's schemes.

For good reason armies do not use old men as they have usually come to realise war is folly and might refuse to fight for a stupid cause.

[uptheos]

 

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

In no way defending Hamas, but please confirm which political party leaders put themselves in harms way during war. Maybe a few, but not a common practise is it?

 

 

Being in the same country is usually the norm though. (if you can call Gaza a country)

 

These Hamas leaders and Palestinian spokesperson's are deliberately kept out of country, as they are deemed the most intellectually capable of spewing hatred propaganda to the outside world. It's understandable that the poor suckers of Gaza fall for their evil rhetoric, but in the so called educated world, it's unfathomable.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

Haaretz does have a small readership but it is popular with an important liberal elite demographic in Israel. I think it's a positive thing that at least some people in Israel are thinking critically about their society. All nations always have room for self examination and improvement. Israel is certainly no different. It's obvious that without the constant threats Israel has been under since it's founding that it would be a much different society, and much more politically left. But that's not how it turned out which given their neighborhood, is entirely understandable. 

 

Considering their tragic history and constantly being under threat by those around, yes, it is understandable and I feel for the Israeli people as much as I do the Palestinians. But both desperately need to find the proverbial olive branch, otherwise this just keeps on coming around with consequences more and more devastating each time.

 

It was a terrible shame when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated.

 

You are correct. I have little respect for "bliar" Tony Blair, but at least he broke out of the "IRA bad" mindset of the English establishment and talked to the IRA as equals, stopping a centuries old conflict.

Unless israel wishes to be still fighting the Palestinians in 600 years time, they need a "Tony Blair" of their own.

While israel will probably always be militarily stronger ( as Britain was over the IRA ) they will never "win" the war as long as young men are prepared to die to oppose them ( as were the IRA ). Likewise the Vietminh overcame the French and North Vietnam overcame the US ( the most powerful military in the world ). Military strength alone cannot win a war, peace has to be negotiated ( unless exterminating the enemy is an option, and that would, I hope, not be an option in the Gaza conflict ).

 

It is worth remembering ( and the politicians know this ) that for every non combatant Palestinian killed, there will be many young men that seek to kill israelis in the future. The israelis can kill 10,000 now, but a million will become their enemy, and they aren't all in Gaza. I can forsee israelis being at risk anywhere in the world, eg it would be a foolhardy israeli that were to walk through Little Arabia in Pattaya right now openly advertising himself as israeli.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

 

In 1971 I travelled as a student through Israel and the West bank: an open border was between the Kingdom of Siam and the Kingdom of Lanna: students from all the world, inclusive Palestines: all young persons of the World.
The years later terrorist attacks, rockets, grenades from the Palestines towards the Israëli's In their manifest ( constitution): Israel must be wiped away, the jews driven into the see.
I wonder what would have been the attitude of the USA if Mexico, would behave like that, or on daily bases rockets were lunched from Laos to Nong Kai.
Even the Israelis do their utmost to protect also Palestinian civilians see the statement of a British general at the UN see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlmFc1R8evY&feature=youtube_gdata_player -, sorry, but 100% protection is impossible, especially when rockets are stored in schools, hospitals etc, see UNWRA school even. And you think, this is the only case ? ?
All recourses in Gaza are used for the military and NOT for schools, water supply, electricity etc as.. why should they, US and EU taxpayers money supports that already since 1948

Why do people bring up that pathetic excuse about what would the US do if Mexico or Canada was rocketing them? Fact is, the US hasn't occupied Mexico or Canada since 1948 and driven most of the population into exile. The Canadian and Mexican population aren't mainly refugees in crowded camps. They have no reason to rocket the US.

The reason for the rockets is the illegal occupation and the collective punishment of people that weren't even born in 1948.

Burning israeli flags on the streets of European cities and applauding crowds show that while israel might win the war, it is losing the battle for public support throughout the world.

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

<see the statement of a British general at the UN >
Who would believe any western establishment figure, ESPECIALLY at the UN? They are all pro israeli.

 

 

So you morally justify the shoot of Hamas on innocent Israeli population?
What Illegal occupation?

Last time I checked, the Gazans got their land back on 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

As for the UN, it has been consistently pro Palestinian since the establishment of the state of Israel on 1948.

But don't let the facts get in your way.
 

 

The illegal occupation of the west bank. Just because a Palestinian lives in Gaza, does not mean that he doesn't care about Palestinians in the west bank. A Palestinian is a Palestinian whether he lives in Gaza, in the west bank, in London, in New York or next door to you.

 

I don't support anyone trying to kill anyone else, and I even agree that the israelis should respond to rocket fire with lethal force. However, I understand WHY the Palestinians are trying to kill israelis. What I don't support is the excessive use of israeli military power to indiscriminatly attack residential areas of Gaza.

As a missile from a drone can be guided with pinpoint accuracy to a target, they could be used to attack rocket launch sites. The israelis know exactly where the rockets are being launched, and drones over Gaza could respond in seconds. Instead, the israelis are using artillery shells and bombs with huge explosive power that inevitably cause civilian casualties. A shell is unguided and is not completely accurate.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

 

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

How exactly are they supposed to build anything let alone a railway! It just goes to show how out of touch that guy is with the reality of daily life in Gaza.
The are denied construction materials and equipment plus most of the day to day item we take for granted.

The damage done by the Israeli army can not be repaired without cement which is an item banned by Netanyahu and his cronies.

Nothing is allowed to enter or leave the area without Israel's approval.

 

 

The blockade was not in place to begin with, and it was not brought about out of context, the way some try to present.

 

Obviously Hamas had enough building materials to build an impressive array of underground tunnels and facilities, and the last time I checked rockets were made of metal. Building materials were not always banned, and were declared as dual use materials only at a latter stage. A more thorough ban came into place as things got out of hand.

 

To make things a bit clearer - Israel still supplies the Gaza Strip (yes, even while the fighting is going on) with electricity, water and fuel, not to mention other goods being transported to the Gaza Strip through border passes regularly. One of the main issues was Hamas refusal to accept Israeli inspections of shipments for contraband and dual use materials prior to their delivery to the Gaza Strip. Attempts to find a solution which will satisfy both sides on this have met with failure. For obvious security reasons, Israel will not allow free flow of goods, as long as Hamas keeps upholding armed struggle as the way to go. There is some talk about trying to set up an international mechanism to sort this, but so far no agreements and enough guarantees to make this a viable solution.

 

Israel is also a bit more open minded for PA officials taking part in those arrangements, but with the Hamas/PA split on, this is still not acceptable for the Hamas.

 

Lastly, Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border. A hard point to address without poking a hole in blaming Israel only, but still...

 

The consequence of stopping electricity, fuel, food and water into Gaza would inevitably be either the extermination of all people in Gaza, or the total evacuation of the strip. To date, even the israelis would not dare to commit such a heinous crime.

Given that israel controls Gaza through the blockade, they have no choice but to supply those commodities as the Gazans are unable to do so.

 

<Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border>

I would imagine that the closure of the Egyptian border is part of the israeli/ Egyptian treaty. I would not doubt that part of the reason Morsi was overthrown, was that he would have moved towards opening the border.

[Ulysses G.]

<Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border>
I would imagine that the closure of the Egyptian border is part of the israeli/ Egyptian treaty.

์No. It isn't. Egypt could open it any time that they wanted to, but they have about as much use for Hamas as Israel does and are just as responsible for the blockade on goods going into Gaza. They consider Hamas terrorists that are fomenting violence in Egypt as well as Israel.

"Let Gaza burn with those in it," proclaimed Tawfik Okasha, a pro-military TV presenter known for his rabid anti-Islamist rhetoric. He praised Israel's leadership "You are men," he said for striking back against Hamas after the kidnapping and killing of three Israelis last month.
Another presenter, Amany el-Khayat, accused Hamas of trying to promote its "resistance" image by letting Gazan civilians die, saying the group seeks to "wash its face ... with Palestinians' blood."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/facing-calls-to-open-gaza-border-egypt-takes-tough-line-in-rivalry-with-hamas/

[thaibeachlovers]

 

<Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border>
I would imagine that the closure of the Egyptian border is part of the israeli/ Egyptian treaty.

์No. It isn't. Egypt could open it any time that they wanted to, but they have about as much use for Hamas as Israel does and are just as responsible for the blockade on goods going into Gaza. They consider Hamas terrorists that are fomenting violence in Egypt as well as Israel.

"Let Gaza burn with those in it," proclaimed Tawfik Okasha, a pro-military TV presenter known for his rabid anti-Islamist rhetoric. He praised Israel's leadership "You are men," he said for striking back against Hamas after the kidnapping and killing of three Israelis last month.
Another presenter, Amany el-Khayat, accused Hamas of trying to promote its "resistance" image by letting Gazan civilians die, saying the group seeks to "wash its face ... with Palestinians' blood."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/facing-calls-to-open-gaza-border-egypt-takes-tough-line-in-rivalry-with-hamas/

 

Interesting.

However, the tunnels from Egypt can only operate with Egyptian complicity. It will be informative to see if Sissi shuts them down.

 

It is worth noting that the Palestinian refugees are still confined to camps as other Arab countries find it expedient, for whatever reason, to not let them assimilate into their own countries.

Edited July 28, 2014 by thaibeachlovers

[Morch]

 

 

The protests in London and other cities highlight the fact that this is not a war of equals, as some suggest.

Israel remains an occupying force that controls Palestinian lives against their will. Palestinians who do not enjoy the same opportunities, dignity and conveniences of civilian life as people in Israel cannot suddenly be considered as equals in a disproportionate conflict.

Former UK deputy Prime. Minister John Prescott has harsh words for Israel in today's Sunday Mirror.
"Israel's 'brutally disproportionate and grossly indiscriminate' bombardment of Gaza must be regarded as a war crime", Labour former deputy prime minister John Prescott said.
Lord Prescott said any other country would be made an international 'pariah' if it acted in the same way, as the reported death toll from the offensive against Hamas reached four figures.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/john-prescott-israels-bombardment-gaza-3918413

 

I do not think many sources present this as a war of equals, which sort of leaves your premise shaky.

 

There is, however, a some range between accepting that some elements of the conflict are disproportionate and between asserting that therefore no responsibility should be attributed to the Palestinians. They were hardly passive when it came to screwing up their lives. And no, this does not mean that Israel is absolved of all sins, just that there is enough blame for all to share (my personal view is that there is an obsession with placing blame and less conductive effort to resolve conflicts).

 

Something I am still trying to figure out - what would be considered a proportional response, from a military point of view? This is not a baiting question as some suggested, and it does no necessarily express the view that the current Israeli response is proportionate - merely asking what military actions would fit the bill (without getting into the political and diplomatic side of things, which is obviously not going to be resolved soonish). As a follow up question, one which I do not have a clear answer for at this time - Is it a requirement of military actions to be proportionate? (more a philosophical or moral issue, not necessarily to be considered in light of the current fighting).

 

Prescott's learned opinion being such as it is - there are quite a few countries involved in violent conflicts which resulted in higher death toll among civilians, how many of them are international pariahs? With how many of them did the UK cut relationship or anything of the sort? And were things much different when he was in office?

 

 

 

A good question & worthy of a stand alone topic- Mods?

 

Coming up to the end of WW11 and immediately after there was some introspection on proportional response, mainly due to the policy of carpet bombing (Terror bombing) of cities. Unsure what if any actual changes to military doctrine occurred

 

I believe the concept of military proportional response has been severely degraded as one of the outcomes of “The War on Terror” with, in my opinion, the unnecessary deployment of excessive fire power in populated areas, whether it is carpet bombing (interdiction), villages, towns or cities..

 

There are legal principles under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, amongst others providing oversight and the possibility of legal action. One of the issues, by some countries, is not permitting their armed forces to be subject to legal action by foreign or international courts or putting in-place significant politically motivated obstructions to due process.

 

Perhaps the following quote provides some context (provides plenty of wiggle room for those claiming they are complying with the principle of proportionality) from the URL below.

 

“an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage”

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_%28law%29

 

 

And probably a topic better debated when things chill a little, as well.

 

Not being a legal expert on these matters, but it does seem like international law is not as restrictive as some may wish, or imagine. Plenty of legal maneuvering space, and guess past lessons were learned on this front as well. As with many legal procedure, it is not always about justice, morals or what's right - but more about regulation and compromise between law makers. Worthy to note that pulling international law and calling for its application is not standard, and often motivated by agendas and various interests.

 

As related to the current situation, there was an interview with a Palestinian official (linked previously on few topics) which stated that from a legal point of view, it might not be in the Palestinians best interests to take a legal course of action, as from a legal point of view Israel was on more solid grounds. Mind, that it was not a comment on morality or justification, but on the likelihood of success, and that the speaker was a PA official, not Hamas. This was prior to the land operation by the IDF, so not sure if this legal assessment still stands. Politicians and NGOs calling for world court, war crimes tribunal etc., do not always represent the legal realities.

[uptheos]

 

 

<Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border>
I would imagine that the closure of the Egyptian border is part of the israeli/ Egyptian treaty.

์No. It isn't. Egypt could open it any time that they wanted to, but they have about as much use for Hamas as Israel does and are just as responsible for the blockade on goods going into Gaza. They consider Hamas terrorists that are fomenting violence in Egypt as well as Israel.

"Let Gaza burn with those in it," proclaimed Tawfik Okasha, a pro-military TV presenter known for his rabid anti-Islamist rhetoric. He praised Israel's leadership "You are men," he said for striking back against Hamas after the kidnapping and killing of three Israelis last month.
Another presenter, Amany el-Khayat, accused Hamas of trying to promote its "resistance" image by letting Gazan civilians die, saying the group seeks to "wash its face ... with Palestinians' blood."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/facing-calls-to-open-gaza-border-egypt-takes-tough-line-in-rivalry-with-hamas/

 

Interesting.

However, the tunnels from Egypt can only operate with Egyptian complicity. It will be informative to see if Sissi shuts them down.

 

It is worth noting that the Palestinian refugees are still confined to camps as other Arab countries find it expedient, for whatever reason, to not let them assimilate into their own countries.

 

 

It's true the oil rich nations have enough money to give the people of Gaza a fresh start in their respective countries.

But who in their right mind would bring evil and trouble to its own doorstep?

No, they are happy to fuel the fire of Hamas and let them make martyrs of women and children.

Distant slaughter by proxy is the rich Arab way.

[Morch]

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

Hanan Ashrawi is actually one of the relatively moderate (or "can be reasoned with", whatever feels right) voices on the Palestinian side. She's also a Christian, and her political allegiance does not lie with Hamas as such. That she represents a general pro-Palestinian stance is expected. As far as I am aware she resides in the West Bank, although she does hop around the world a bit. No need to mix her with Hamas leadership abroad, even when both are interviewed by the same channel. The whole "devil incarnate" thing does do much good either.

 

Like it or not, there is a certain feeling of solidarity between Palestinians. Same thing can be said about Israelis and Jews. Having a sense of solidarity with the people is not quite the same as supporting all the policies and actions of the relevant leadership.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi
 

[Morch]

 

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

In no way defending Hamas, but please confirm which political party leaders really put themselves in harms way during war. Maybe a few, but not a common practise is it?

 

 

This was raised earlier on one of the topics.

 

There is a certain difference between a leader being in country, but not necessarily at the front, and between a warmongering leader holding hardline positions from afar while the populace suffers. To take this a couple of steps further, Hamas leadership in Gaza is rather safe underground, and despite the extensive network of underground tunnels exposed in Gaza, there was no similar protection offered for most of the civilians. Israeli politicians, leaders and generals visited areas and settlements near the Gaza Strip border quite often, on one of these occasions rocket fire made the visiting Norwegian foreign minister rush to shelter along with his Israeli counterpart.

 

The requirement is not to lead from the front, but to show some presence which denotes solidarity and sharing of the hardship, even if for a short while.
 

[Morch]

 

 

Haaretz does have a small readership but it is popular with an important liberal elite demographic in Israel. I think it's a positive thing that at least some people in Israel are thinking critically about their society. All nations always have room for self examination and improvement. Israel is certainly no different. It's obvious that without the constant threats Israel has been under since it's founding that it would be a much different society, and much more politically left. But that's not how it turned out which given their neighborhood, is entirely understandable. 

 

Considering their tragic history and constantly being under threat by those around, yes, it is understandable and I feel for the Israeli people as much as I do the Palestinians. But both desperately need to find the proverbial olive branch, otherwise this just keeps on coming around with consequences more and more devastating each time.

 

It was a terrible shame when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated.

 

You are correct. I have little respect for "bliar" Tony Blair, but at least he broke out of the "IRA bad" mindset of the English establishment and talked to the IRA as equals, stopping a centuries old conflict.

Unless israel wishes to be still fighting the Palestinians in 600 years time, they need a "Tony Blair" of their own.

While israel will probably always be militarily stronger ( as Britain was over the IRA ) they will never "win" the war as long as young men are prepared to die to oppose them ( as were the IRA ). Likewise the Vietminh overcame the French and North Vietnam overcame the US ( the most powerful military in the world ). Military strength alone cannot win a war, peace has to be negotiated ( unless exterminating the enemy is an option, and that would, I hope, not be an option in the Gaza conflict ).

 

It is worth remembering ( and the politicians know this ) that for every non combatant Palestinian killed, there will be many young men that seek to kill israelis in the future. The israelis can kill 10,000 now, but a million will become their enemy, and they aren't all in Gaza. I can forsee israelis being at risk anywhere in the world, eg it would be a foolhardy israeli that were to walk through Little Arabia in Pattaya right now openly advertising himself as israeli.

 

 

That the Israeli leadership is not prime material is quite obvious. If Netanyahu is the best Israel can come up with things are dire indeed. But even if by some magic, a fearless leader would be dropped in - he would still need someone of equal stature to hold talks with. With a similar leadership crisis on the Palestinian side, the situation gets more complicated, and as long as this double leadership vacuum (mediocrity? stalemate? So many options how to term this..) goes on things are not likely to get any better. Each side's leadership is the other side's excuse for not getting anywhere.