NCPO approves US$34 billion rail line project plan

[ginjag]

Sorry guys to bring up the subject but for far less cost double track no Chiang M bullet. N Khai to eastern seaboard, etc. The point being a far better and cheaper rail network, for industry and cities. AND THESE PEOPLE ARE ONLY SOLDIERS and have no idea how to run anything==being the cry from some.

Up to now soldiers seem to be better than the last cabinet by far. Talk about lose face.

A bit OTT ginjag. The NCPO approved the Transport Ministry's plan.

I don't think they are too deeply into detailed planning but they certainly are very good at overseeing that others (esp the BIB) don't overstep the mark.

What I posted was fact from some out of date posters, The army are present at ALL venues where these decisions are made, if not part of the ministry.

The rest of my post is spot on to what I argued 2 years ago. The army have the best advisors that's why things are flowing reasonably well. The beauty of not relying on a chosen cabinet.

[shaurene]

Wow, she say looking at ways to reduce it per KL from 500-600ml to 350-400 ML you can see where this is going cutting corners. They need to get a project manager to build it from a country that have these high speed train lines not a Thai that does not have experience. You can imagine the amount of flying trains leaving the tracks. They will have a good flyby points system. I do hope the junta will do this.

How on earth can they look at reducing the cost close to half the original. Only one way. You would never get me on one. They cannot keep the slow trains on track now. Maintenance money going into other fund accounts.

[smutcakes]

"Ms Soithip said said a study would be carried out to explore ways to bring the construction cost of the dual-track rail system from about 500-600 million baht per km to a range of 350-400 million baht per kilometre."

Yes just miss out the foundations many Thai construction companies know how to do this very well.

The budget they got approved was that for the high speed rail, but they reckon because of the changes they will be able to reduce it to between 350-400 million per kilometer.

I am sure it will end up being the same price, just not HSR.

Why in the world would they get the HSR budget amount approved when they are not building it? They may reduce it, they may not, they may lose the 250 bn extra to.....

[dcutman]

At some point this thing cannot be called high speed anymore.

Sitting on a train for 5 or 6 hours when you can get there in less than three hours (including all the bs at the airport) for around the same money, Its a 750 billion baht of unnessesary taxpayer money wasted, IMO.

[wabothai]

that money could be better spent.

why is Thailand all of a sudden in need of super transportation in order to get there quickly? Nong Khai?

Besides tourists like the cuurent trainsystem, it brings them back 60 years, i do.

the stations with abundant flowerpots....it is so attractive. the statiowards with their green and red flags....

may be Thailand should wait a few years with the project and spend the money on other things like education and fix the C-roads with all its dangerous potholes.

the high speed line only serves a handful of people who are mostly serving themselves and their wannabe ego.

thailand don't destroy your attractiveness!

[Ricardo]

This will increase tourist in Chian Mai. many will want to take the train just to see Thailand.

Just to emphasise that in fact, this new set of proposals does not include Chiang Mai at all, the previous government's plan for a high-speed passenger-line from Bangkok to Phitsanulok, to be followed by a private-finance line the rest of the way, the expensive/difficult bit through the mountains, is totally written out.

So it won't increase tourist-arrivals to Chiang Mai after all.

Although one might hope for the odd passenger-train, on the medium-speed standard-gauge freight-line from Chiang Khong to Lopburi, I suppose.

[Nuddy]

Well there is all the work to be done that would employ Thai populace with jobs and so on to consider!

[belg]

wait, high speed? the slow speed derails at least once per week

[dcutman]

Well there is all the work to be done that would employ Thai populace with jobs and so on to consider!

You might want to do a bit of research on that.

There is not enough construction workers now, just to keep up with what is being built at the moment. Most labor for this project will be imported. In fact just lat year, it was estimated Thailand will need 650 thousand + un and semi skilled workers for the rail and water projects alone, with another 50 thousand engineering types, witch there is few of those either.

[ginjag]

Where are they all this money... who will be stuck after (if it ever happens) they reinstate democracy. Maybe the military dictatorship have other plans.. maybe be in place for a very very long time.

And ??? so ???? if they do a good job well Thai style democracy can go out the window, and if they turn this place around Thai people will not care if it's a said democracy or not, the last government were demo elected and ruled against democracy so whats the problem ??

[mok199]

im all for double track ,but what thailand needs is safer railway,this is done with ''slide fences and motion detectors'' tall mast signals are placed about 1 mile from problem spots and in the case of falling rocks and slide from mountains above the rail fences are set up with wires that ,when triggered ,set of a flashing signal allowng the engineers to slow to''reduced speed'' which is the abiltiyt to stop in 1/2 the range of vision,after passing the area he will resume sppeed,in the case of motion dectors they are placed in the rial bed,if they bed shifts the sensors also trigger a flashing signal.but hey..they are cheap and easlie mainteaned but.... wow double track,is way coolerand the opportunityr for a dog and pony photo shoot and, every politicains familly can get in on the contracting scams.,of double tracking..

[cookee68]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

they want to invest on keeping the trains on the tracks, as of late they have had to many derailed trains

[ginjag]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

they want to invest on keeping the trains on the tracks, as of late they have had to many derailed trains

I would have thought dual track with new foundations etc will take care of the rot and termites and low cheap bedding.

[smutcakes]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

they want to invest on keeping the trains on the tracks, as of late they have had to many derailed trains

I would have thought dual track with new foundations etc will take care of the rot and termites and low cheap bedding.

Especially when they are paying HSR prices!

[tonbridgebrit]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

Thaksin or no Thaksin, Thailand will still end up as a transport route for goods entering or leaving China !

Yeah, I know a few a few anti-Thaksinites who are chanting "Thaksin, Thaksin, are you watching now, are you watching now" ? And "Thaksin, eat your heart out, the project (or a project that's been altered a bit) will still go ahead, but you won't benefit from this, other Chinese-Thais will" !!

[ginjag]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

they want to invest on keeping the trains on the tracks, as of late they have had to many derailed trains

I would have thought dual track with new foundations etc will take care of the rot and termites and low cheap bedding.

Especially when they are paying HSR prices!

If they get freight on the move---no movement on that with PTP only high speed. Accounts would have been unusual with PTP, their record speaks volumes, If the money used goes on the actual product not in pockets- with accounts/transparency more trust again.

[ginjag]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

Thaksin or no Thaksin, Thailand will still end up as a transport route for goods entering or leaving China !

Yeah, I know a few a few anti-Thaksinites who are chanting "Thaksin, Thaksin, are you watching now, are you watching now" ? And "Thaksin, eat your heart out, the project (or a project that's been altered a bit) will still go ahead, but you won't benefit from this, other Chinese-Thais will" !!

Dual tracks with freight on lines and off highways it has to be a winner, you said quote " altered a bit " ???? it's been routed. completely new plan.

[tonbridgebrit]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

Thaksin or no Thaksin, Thailand will still end up as a transport route for goods entering or leaving China !

Yeah, I know a few a few anti-Thaksinites who are chanting "Thaksin, Thaksin, are you watching now, are you watching now" ? And "Thaksin, eat your heart out, the project (or a project that's been altered a bit) will still go ahead, but you won't benefit from this, other Chinese-Thais will" !!

Dual tracks with freight on lines and off highways it has to be a winner, you said quote " altered a bit " ???? it's been routed. completely new plan.

Ginjag, don't you reckon though, the anti-Thaksinites who were against the former plan were against it, mainly because, because it was being done in Thaksin's name ? Had this present plan been proposed by Thaksin, well, the anti-Thaksinites would still be against it ?

And if Thaksin was still in power (okay, he hands out the orders to his sister), and if Thaksin had of come up with this new proposal (he changes it from his previous plan, maybe to just to silence the critics), well, won't the anti-Thaksinites still be against it ?

Okay, maybe not so with an anti-Thaksinite like you, but most of the other anti-Thaksinites ?

What about the anti-Thaksinites who dis-liked Thailand becoming a route and trading post for China's exports and imports ? Yes, I know that some of the Thaksinites themselves dis-liked Thailand becoming a trading post and route for China's exports and imports !

[smutcakes]

Especially when they are paying HSR prices!

If they get freight on the move---no movement on that with PTP only high speed. Accounts would have been unusual with PTP, their record speaks volumes, If the money used goes on the actual product not in pockets- with accounts/transparency more trust again.

Well if you call getting a budget if 750 + bn baht approved which is the budget for HSR, for dual track which is about 25% lower good accounts and transparency, then i think it is clear you heart is ruling your head.

Its like getting a 100 million budget approved for a condominium, but your actually building an office, which you reckon is cheaper so you might be able to get it reduced. But in this case the difference is potentially 250 bn baht. I dont think anyone in the world would say that is good governance, transparency or anything else, other than a breeding pool for fiscal umm 'issues'.

[ginjag]

Here we go. The billions will fly out. The original plan came from the missunderstood fugitive. Now the military government can show what it's worth in the economical field. Check and doublecheck all spendings. The project sounds like heaven for the corruption-vultures. Eight dualtrack lines sounds ok to me.But does Thailand really need two highspeedlines? Will the investment ever show a profit?

Edit: The two highspeed lines to the north (Chiang Khong and Nong Khai) are part of the 2.4 trillion plan, though not mentioned in the article

Thaksin or no Thaksin, Thailand will still end up as a transport route for goods entering or leaving China !

Yeah, I know a few a few anti-Thaksinites who are chanting "Thaksin, Thaksin, are you watching now, are you watching now" ? And "Thaksin, eat your heart out, the project (or a project that's been altered a bit) will still go ahead, but you won't benefit from this, other Chinese-Thais will" !!

Dual tracks with freight on lines and off highways it has to be a winner, you said quote " altered a bit " ???? it's been routed. completely new plan.

Ginjag, don't you reckon though, the anti-Thaksinites who were against the former plan were against it, mainly because, because it was being done in Thaksin's name ? Had this present plan been proposed by Thaksin, well, the anti-Thaksinites would still be against it ?

And if Thaksin was still in power (okay, he hands out the orders to his sister), and if Thaksin had of come up with this new proposal (he changes it from his previous plan, maybe to just to silence the critics), well, won't the anti-Thaksinites still be against it ?

Okay, maybe not so with an anti-Thaksinite like you, but most of the other anti-Thaksinites ?

What about the anti-Thaksinites who dis-liked Thailand becoming a route and trading post for China's exports and imports ? Yes, I know that some of the Thaksinites themselves dis-liked Thailand becoming a trading post and route for China's exports and imports !

I really disliked his type of rule, most of it has been found to be not very honest to say the least.

Thaksin never had the idea to get freight off the roads, and onto tracks. seemingly to get a high speed rail to Chiang Mai a priority.

Thaksin should be out of any limelight unless he wants to be the hero and return to serve time and the rest of the 10 or so other charges against him.

Why do you think there are so many anti Thaksin ex pats just because of what ?? just because all of a sudden they decided to pick on him.

I give most of my fellow westerners the benefit of the doubt, he is what most say he is.

On topic -trading with China and all the Asian countries will be beneficial with this system, the PTP one was for high speed only as freight cannot be transported at that speed.

I don't know the bloke to dislike him personally but what I see and read and his family antics it puts me off the guy.

[fab4]

If they get freight on the move---no movement on that with PTP only high speed. Accounts would have been unusual with PTP, their record speaks volumes, If the money used goes on the actual product not in pockets- with accounts/transparency more trust again.

Are you saying that the PTP Infrastructure project had no plans for freight by rail? Not correct - they planned to increase the rail transport share of freight from 2.5% to 5%. Japan's freight share percentage is 4% by comparison. This link http://www.thai-japanasso.or.th/news_activities/AllNews.php?nid=303&type=Hot%20News provides a detailed presentation of the PTP Infrastructure Projects.

You can bluster all you like about accountability (and good luck with that with the new lot) but this sets out what was going to happen - I really can't see where you could fault the transparent way it would have been carried out - see http://www.thaiembassy.fr/wp-content/uploads/Borrowing-Bill.pdf for details of that process.

[MrMo]

i have always held ThaiVisa in quite high regard with regard to the reliability of its reporting. No more.

It seems ThaiVisa does not know that there is a difference in value between the dollar of the United States of America and that of the Republic of Singapore.

[473geo]

Good to see some of you guys catching up, there are many who have anticipated infrastructure improvements in order to advance Thailand since the concept arose. Who takes the profit out of the improvements is really of little interest to those who quite simply wish to move forward and enjoy the benefits.

[tingtongteesood]

I still believe it is mostly an unnecessary waste of money. However it is interesting comparing the costs listed by them to what the PT clowns were trying to borrow and wondering exactly how much they were expecting to pilfer away into their own secret bank accounts....

[rubl]

So, reverting to "dual-track standard gauge railway system and with lower speed" makes the building per kilometer cheaper, but higher speed would be possible after more investment.

That would assume that the money saved now is not in the construction of the tracks themselves, but in other elements, like safety network, cabling along the tracks, type of trains to be bought, and so ?

[Lakegeneve]

Sorry guys to bring up the subject but for far less cost double track no Chiang M bullet. N Khai to eastern seaboard, etc. The point being a far better and cheaper rail network, for industry and cities. AND THESE PEOPLE ARE ONLY SOLDIERS and have no idea how to run anything==being the cry from some.

Up to now soldiers seem to be better than the last cabinet by far. Talk about lose face.

A bit OTT ginjag. The NCPO approved the Transport Ministry's plan.

I don't think they are too deeply into detailed planning but they certainly are very good at overseeing that others (esp the BIB) don't overstep the mark.

Indeed. None of this is new, it has been supported by the two previous govts.

The only new aspect is Prayuth pushing a standard gauge freight line to the NE to link with the proposed Laos HSR line to China. I wrote this in a previous thread when comparing the Malaysian and Thailand programs, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/743680-high-speed-train-project-continues-with-the-bangkok-chiang-mai-route/page-4

The ongoing long term Track Duplication and Upgrade program in Thailand is effectively around a decade behind the Malaysian program. The main reason for this is the difference in the political stability between both countries. Malaysia has effectively been a one party state for decades and has thus been able to provide continuity in the policy and financial implementation of their program. (That doesn't mean that there have not been delays, as there has been). Sena correctly points out all major projects leak financial benefits to those in power in Malaysia but that is hardly news.

In Thailand, the last decade of political instability with 6 different administrations has meant that policy continuity has been severely disrupted and infrastructure project planning has been fragmented. Each new administration reviews previous projects and budgets and then seeks to impose its agenda of infrastructure priorities based on what can be politically and personally beneficial. That fact, along with the the SRT Board being poor performers in implementing policy when they do obtain the funds has resulted in the previous Master Plan timeframe from 5 years ago (once the Dems allocated a significant amount of funds), is already some 3-4 years behind schedule! (See the table below for this previous schedule)

As an example, the one upgrade currently under tender (it closed on 15 July - 6 bidders), the 106km Kaeng Khoi to Klong 19 to Chanchaengsao line was first stated to be a priority in 2003 with a tender due in 2005!!! It forms part of the priority Laem Chabang to Kaeng Khoi section. (Laem Chabang to Chachaengsao was completed in 2012).

The next sections to be tendered which have previously been fully budgeted (by the Dems and continued by PT) are;

1) Map Kabao-Jira Junction (132km); 29.855 billion baht

2) Nakhon Pathom-Nong Pladuk-Hua Hin (165km) 20.038 billion baht

3) Lop Buri-Pak Nampo (118km); 24.842 billion baht

4) Nakhon Ratchasima-Khon Kaen (185km); 26.007 billion baht

5) and Prachuap Khiri Khan-Chumphon (167km). 17.292 billion baht

However, the EIAs have all been delayed by the political turmoil. EIAs for (4) & (5) are seen as the easiest to complete by the end of 2014 so that work may commence in the 1st quarter of 2015.

SRT trains are renowned for their slow speeds and delayed scheduling due to state of the single track network. This project will allow the SRT to increase ave speeds from 45km/h to around 80-90km/h. Most track will have a max operating speed of 120 km/h although a couple of priority freight sections are planned to have future 160 km/h max operations. It is still planned to later electrify parts of the network.

This program has bipartisan support across the political spectrum. Dems, PT, minor parties, even the junta. They all recognise the importance and cost benefits of such even if it has been a dysfunctional mess in terms of project implementation.

The previous schedule

Note: The current schedule is basically Phase 1 from late 2014/15-2018/19

Phase 2 from 2017/18-2022

Phase 3 to be rescheduled upon completion of Phase 1

(Most likely add at least 1-2 years onto those dates.)

My prediction, the above detailed 5 sections of the upgrading/duplication program will be tendered next year and work will start on these upgrades in the 2nd half of the year. ( I can't see the new lines starting prior to the end of 2015 but perhaps they will surprise?)

Then we will have elections and a new civilian administration will review this program, the planned 3-4 new lines and the still proposed HSR program. The new govt will rejig everything to suit their own political priorities and in the process create yet another 6-12 month delay....... similar to what PT did after they were elected in 2011 (#61 , http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/743680-high-speed-train-project-continues-with-the-bangkok-chiang-mai-route/page-3 )

[tonbridgebrit]

I still believe it is mostly an unnecessary waste of money. However it is interesting comparing the costs listed by them to what the PT clowns were trying to borrow and wondering exactly how much they were expecting to pilfer away into their own secret bank accounts....

Yes, if you look at it from purely Thailand's point of view, it IS almost an unnecessary waste of money.

There's already aeroplane services connecting Thailand's big cities, people have already mentioned things like "why go by train from Bangkok to Chang Mai, when the plane is quicker and the same price (plane ticket compared to the train ticket price when the new track is there)". And also, how much industry is there in Chang Mai and Udon Thani ? Do they really need rail freight to carry vast amounts of raw materials and manufactured goods from those places to Bangkok ??

So, I agree, Thailand itself does not really need this. If Thai tax money is going to be used to pay Thai companies to build it, well, at least it means jobs for Thai workers. But the project, I think, will make only a small profit when bearing in mind ticket sales and the construction costs.

But, we have to bear in mind China. This rail-track, I think (I'm only guessing, I don't claim to be an expert) will mainly be used to carry imports and exports to China. And maybe to link up Singapore with China. It just so happens that Thailand is occupying some of the land that the rail-track is going to be built on !

[ginjag]

If they get freight on the move---no movement on that with PTP only high speed. Accounts would have been unusual with PTP, their record speaks volumes, If the money used goes on the actual product not in pockets- with accounts/transparency more trust again.

Are you saying that the PTP Infrastructure project had no plans for freight by rail? Not correct - they planned to increase the rail transport share of freight from 2.5% to 5%. Japan's freight share percentage is 4% by comparison. This link http://www.thai-japanasso.or.th/news_activities/AllNews.php?nid=303&type=Hot%20News provides a detailed presentation of the PTP Infrastructure Projects.

You can bluster all you like about accountability (and good luck with that with the new lot) but this sets out what was going to happen - I really can't see where you could fault the transparent way it would have been carried out - see http://www.thaiembassy.fr/wp-content/uploads/Borrowing-Bill.pdf for details of that process.

WoW two and a half %---you have no idea if it would be transparent or not, I was going on their governing record only. The same as you crew are going on the military record---ditto.

Funny how you home in on things said on topics when PTP are mentioned, or is it a coincidence.

This set up is near entirely different. before freight on high speed narrow track ?? Didn't Yingluck refer to it at one time. But anyway--CM out the window---GOOD. as it served no purpose for fast train there the rich would have flown. That is why I didn't believe in the projects transparency---No fool would have built a high speed rail link to another city on narrow track---- That I didn't go for this I do because this is what I proposed a long time ago.

Your links and plans were never to get off the ground even if they were printed. near 3 trillion, was it 50 years to pay back.

[Lakegeneve]

If they get freight on the move---no movement on that with PTP only high speed. Accounts would have been unusual with PTP, their record speaks volumes, If the money used goes on the actual product not in pockets- with accounts/transparency more trust again.

Are you saying that the PTP Infrastructure project had no plans for freight by rail? Not correct - they planned to increase the rail transport share of freight from 2.5% to 5%. Japan's freight share percentage is 4% by comparison. This link http://www.thai-japanasso.or.th/news_activities/AllNews.php?nid=303&type=Hot%20News provides a detailed presentation of the PTP Infrastructure Projects.

You can bluster all you like about accountability (and good luck with that with the new lot) but this sets out what was going to happen - I really can't see where you could fault the transparent way it would have been carried out - see http://www.thaiembassy.fr/wp-content/uploads/Borrowing-Bill.pdf for details of that process.

This set up is near entirely different. before freight on high speed narrow track ?? Didn't Yingluck refer to it at one time. But anyway--CM out the window---GOOD. as it served no purpose for fast train there the rich would have flown. That is why I didn't believe in the projects transparency---No fool would have built a high speed rail link to another city on narrow track----

You are right, no fool would have built a narrow gauge HSR as that has never been proposed.

The HSR lines have always been proposed as standard gauge.

[kamahele]

Could I request air conditioning in all cars please?!