Anger mounts as Gaza toll rises

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

 

 

From your entire blaming post I still didn't get a few things:

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

 

Blaming post? If I have any blame it would be for the insensitivity of the Zionist apologists to the plight of the Palestinian people

If by now you don't know the answers to your above questions, I am afraid I can not help you

But I will tell you this, the Greeks resisted Ottoman occupation for 400 years and were eventually successful they did not give up because it was futile, obviously it was not.

if you think the Palestinians will give up and capitulate in a few decades you lack the necessary historical perspective .

Apartheid was wrong for South Africa, and it is wrong for Israel.

 

 

I don't want or need you to help me. I certainly know what I think about it, I have no idea what you think/know tho.

Your post included an opinion that lacked answers to the key points, makes your post quite vague and incomplete.

So you can't answer the questions? Too tough?

 

Oh, and one more question - which Apartheid is there in Israel?

 

You might not want my help but you certainly need it, at least in this subject. also you did not answer my question "if it was your land would you give up so easy?" so why should I answer yours?

 

 

I did ask you first, but to answer your question - no, I won't give up my land easily. I will do everything in my power, which is legal under local and international laws to get it back or get a reasonable compensation for it.

Now can you please answer my questions?

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

Which Apartheid is there in Israel?

Edited August 3, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Jay Sata]

Shame on you Israel and supporters .

UN regional humanitarian coordinator James Rawley told the BBC 330 of the dead were children.

"We are killing about one child every hour right now," he said.

He added that more than 80% of those killed were civilians, though Israel disputes this figure.

I hope we get the warmonger Netanyahu to The Hague in my lifetime.

[Morch]

People ask " how could the German people allow Nazism to happen? Well, I submit in the same way we allow what is happening to the Palestinian people now, to happen.

People, not all , but enough to create the situation we see now in Palestine, exist in every race, nationality or culture, and I am sure exist in my nationality. We have seen it happen in many parts of the world. and rational caring people should opposed it where ever present,  with out fear of being called Anti....... 

What has happened to the Palestinian people is a crime against humanity. and anyone who thinks differently needs to have his/hes moral compass reexamined, or at the very least his/hers reasoning abilities.

History will not look kindly upon this situation.

 

 

Wondering on how you see Hamas taking over the Gaza Strip and effectively enlisting the entire population for something

not sure they signed up for when they voted them in.
 

[Jay Sata]

We read the truth here in the UK and see the pictures.

United Nations warns medical facilities are 'on the verge of collapse' as almost half of medics are unable to get to work
It says a third of all hospitals in Gaza have been damaged and 270,000 people are crammed into 90 UN shelters
Officials said missile struck at gates of one such shelter today in Rafah, killing 10 people inside and out and injuring 35
It is at least the sixth UN facility to be hit and contained 3,000 Palestinians who were sheltering from strikes
UN Secretary-General: Strike is 'moral outrage and criminal act' and 'yet another gross violation of humanitarian law'
As 27th day of conflict began the death toll stood at more than 1,700 Palestinians and 67 Israelis including 64 soldiers
Israel lays blame for civilian deaths with Hamas, saying it stores rockets in civilian areas creating 'human shields'
Many tanks withdrew from Gaza Strip amid reports tunnel destruction was complete - but attacks continued
British Foreign Secretary declares: 'The situation in Gaza is simply intolerable. We have to get the killing to stop'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2714575/Humanitarian-crisis-Gaza-half-million-homeless.html#ixzz39MjJDlHm

[Morch]

Another UN school hit by Israel 10 civilians/children murdered. And the apologists can defend the actions . Now only USA ,Israels lapdog supports them and vetos any investigation into these bombings.Bullys together. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/israel-air-strike-un-school-gaza-rafah

 

When did the USA veto such an investigation?

Was a resolution regarding such an investigation submitted to the UN Security Council? (the only place where the USA can

use its veto right). I am aware of a resolution to this effect that was forwarded to the UNHRC (a UN body which almost by

default, accepts any resolution concerning with Israel).
 

[Morch]

 

And people call ME a drama queene.

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hamas want their people's land back. Can you blame them for that?

 

 

That's almost correct. They want their lands back + Israel's.

[Jay Sata]

With those numbers how can a person with half a brain reason Hamas is behind this slaughter.

Hang on...there will be a person with half a brain spouting Netanyahu warmonger propaganda along in a moment.

Try to explain to those Jewish mums who have lost their sons it was worth it.

There will be no winners here but Israel stands to lose big time with world opinion.

[Jay Sata]

Given his background, what American Jewish leader Henry Siegman has to say about Israels founding in 1948 through the current assault on Gaza may surprise you. From 1978 to 1994, Siegman served as executive director of the American Jewish Congress, long described as one of the nations "big three" Jewish organizations along with the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League. Born in Germany three years before the Nazis came to power in 1933, Siegmans family eventually moved to the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement that pushed for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Siegman studied the religion and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas, later becoming head of the Synagogue Council of America. After his time at the American Jewish Congress, Siegman became a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project.

Here is what he says about the current slaughter.

When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that were watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisis and should be a profound crisis in the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success," Siegman says. Responding to Israels U.S.-backed claim that its assault on Gaza is necessary because no country would tolerate the rocket fire from militants in Gaza, Siegman says: "What undermines this principle is that no country and no people would live the way that Gazans have been made to live. The question of the morality of Israels action depends, in the first instance, on the question, couldnt Israel be doing something [to prevent] this disaster that is playing out now, in terms of the destruction of human life? Couldnt they have done something that did not require that cost? And the answer is, sure, they could have ended the occupation."

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/30/henry_siegman_leading_voice_of_us Edited August 3, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Morch]

 

 

Hamas want their people's land back. Can you blame them for that?

 

I suppose the Tibetans want their land back. There are some Native Americans who would like their land back.  I suspect that there are some Mon down south and Karen up north along the Burmese border who would like their land back.  There are countless displaced groups in the Balkans that would like their land back. There are people who were displaced by the Magyars or displaced by Turkomans who want their land back.  There were once Germans in the Ukraine who might want their land back.  The Kurds would just like a land of their own.  And the Jews now have a land that they call their own and yet everyone would like to see history reversed for the Jews.  As painful as it may seem, it all comes back to that old rock and roll song lyrics "you can't always get what you want". So you either engage in futile acts to reverse history or you move forward in a new direction playing the best hand you have been dealt.  That is the choice.

 

You got to be kidding?

The rational of Israel is that the Jews want their land back after thousands of years, yet the Palestinians can not want their land back after a few decades?

 

 

Bear in mind that the UN Partition plan, accepted by the Jews was a far cry for the homeland envisaged by them.

About half of it was a barren desert, its borders were not defensible, and Jerusalem was split. They took the deal

anyway - a better one bird in hand approach.

 

The Jews settled for a compromise (as in not getting exactly what they wished for), might be opportune for the

Palestinians to do the same.

 

[Morch]

 

And people call ME a drama queene.

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Pure hysteria - No one wants death per se.

 

- Hamas wants the occupation to end, and the Palestine to return to their land.

- The Zionists want to keep and expand on the land they stole.

 

 

Hamas wants the lands which constitute Israel as well, not just the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip and handed over parts of the West Bank to the PA. While I agree that the illegal

settlements in the West Bank are both wrong and a menace to chances of achieving an agreement, so far Israel did

not actually annexe the West Bank, and if history is to be consulted - Israel showed a readiness to trade land and

remove settlements for lasting peace.
 

[Jay Sata]

Take those blinkers off,look at the pictures and please stop cutting pasting and trolling.

Hamas has not killed even a handful of people nor does is have blood on its hands like the Zionists.

[MJP]

Take those blinkers off,look at the pictures and please stop cutting pasting and trolling.

Hamas has not killed even a handful of people nor does is have blood on its hands like the Zionists.

 

I'm in no way excusing or endorsing the actions of the Israeli government here, but I believe Hamas would like a lot more blood on its hands.

 

Hamas are as much as a problem as the Israeli hard right.

 

But, as usual, a lot of ordinary, innocent, typically docile kind folks are the ones getting killed and maimed. Trapped between evil on both sides.

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose the Tibetans want their land back. There are some Native Americans who would like their land back.  I suspect that there are some Mon down south and Karen up north along the Burmese border who would like their land back.  There are countless displaced groups in the Balkans that would like their land back. There are people who were displaced by the Magyars or displaced by Turkomans who want their land back.  There were once Germans in the Ukraine who might want their land back.  The Kurds would just like a land of their own.  And the Jews now have a land that they call their own and yet everyone would like to see history reversed for the Jews.  As painful as it may seem, it all comes back to that old rock and roll song lyrics "you can't always get what you want". So you either engage in futile acts to reverse history or you move forward in a new direction playing the best hand you have been dealt.  That is the choice.

 

You got to be kidding?

The rational of Israel is that the Jews want their land back after thousands of years, yet the Palestinians can not want their land back after a few decades?

 

 

You completely miss my point.  I care not a whit about religious claims (I am a devout atheist:there is no god) nor historical claims.  I have noted many times here that by today's standards neither myself, nor anyone else, would agree to the creation of Israel.  What I have noted are that the tides of history are brutal; that within the greater narrative of history there are winners and losers;  and that Israel is no less a fait accompli than is the United States or Australia or Hungary or Thailand.  One can fight against historical tides, but at what cost?  Israel is not going to go away unless the Arabs wish to sacrifice generations for a goal that has only a small chance of success. If you think the sacrifice of generations of Gazans or other Arabs over a small piece of land is worth the price of armed opposition to existence of Israel then by all means encourage the support of an intransigent political group like Hamas and the continued shelling and endure the consequences.  But then don't come crying to me about civilian casualties.  I for one do not think it is worth the cost, especially given that Gaza and the West Bank can align with Jordan into a relatively homogenous cultural nation-state, with ports on both the Mediterranean as well as the Red Sea, and become a nation-state that would be large enough to be economically viable in today's world.  I think the Levantine Arabs should drop the effort at eradicating Israel, drop the futility of hoping to return, and get on with their lives as countless other peoples have done throughout time.

 

Just because it is your opinion that that opposition to this occupation is futile it does not make it so. Obviously the Palestinians do not think so. The region has seen countless of occupiers come and go, and the Zionists are one of them that just as the others could be consign to the dust bins of history . 

How long do you think Israel would survive with out the support of the west? Do you think the tax base of Israel has the capacity to support the Israeli military complex? Fortunes in the west could change. and some will say, are changing.

But that's besides the point, the point is that the Palestinians, as any other people have   every right to resist occupation, and every right to complain when they are slaughtered in doing so. And just like the Jews to self determination in their own land, but unlike the Jews they are not trying to achieve it by taking other peoples land, but by defending what is theirs.

Would you give up so easily if it was your land that was taken over, and you were forced to live in the worlds largest open air concentration camp? 

Rather than advising them to give up , you should be supporting their efforts, or at the very least  be outraged that such thing could be happening in this time and age by so called civilized people,

 

 

I have absolutely no issues with the Palestinians getting their own land, and furthermore, no issues with calling the Israeli

settlements in the West Bank illegal and agreeing that they must go.

 

At the same time, I believe Israel got a right to exist. With Hamas not interested in merely getting Palestinian lands back,

but actually wanting to take hold of Israel's area as well, this poses a problem with perceiving its goals as an ordinary

liberation struggle (unless one accepts the Hamas's premise, of course). So the "not  trying to achieve it by taking other

peoples land, but by defending what is theirs." sort of fails.

 

On another note, Israel having to deal with tighter military expenditure budget, might carry adverse effects for the

Palestinians. If Israel could not afford such luxuries as the Iron Dome system, it may lead it to be more receptive to

reaching an agreement, or it may place even more pressure on government to sort things out militarily.
 

[sirineou]

 

You might not want my help but you certainly need it, at least in this subject. also you did not answer my question "if it was your land would you give up so easy?" so why should I answer yours?

 

 

 

 

I did ask you first, but to answer your question - no, I won't give up my land easily. I will do everything in my power, which is legal under local and international laws to get it back or get a reasonable compensation for it.

Now can you please answer my questions?

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

Which Apartheid is there in Israel?

 

Some of your questions would be answered in the following videos. the first by no less an authority in the subject  , President  Jimmy Carter and the second By Professor Noam Chomsky 

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faeCA8EmtGo[media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV3YnZnL99M[media]

[Morch]

 

 

You might not want my help but you certainly need it, at least in this subject. also you did not answer my question "if it was your land would you give up so easy?" so why should I answer yours?

 

 

 

 

I did ask you first, but to answer your question - no, I won't give up my land easily. I will do everything in my power, which is legal under local and international laws to get it back or get a reasonable compensation for it.

Now can you please answer my questions?

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

Which Apartheid is there in Israel?

 

Some of your questions would be answered in the following videos. the first by no less an authority in the subject  , President  Jimmy Carter and the second By Professor Noam Chomsky 

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faeCA8EmtGo[media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV3YnZnL99M[media]

 

 

How about a summary for those posters not able to to spend a total of 3 hours watching the clips?
 

[simple1]

 

 

Most if not all members here are debating who to blame and who is at fault, who are the victims and who are the aggressors.

(My personal opinions on this are known after the 100+ posts I made on this topic)

Aren't you guys interested in peace?

I don't remember seeing any posts about:

- Constructive suggestions on how to resolve the conflict

- Realistic suggestions on how to stop the bloodshed once and for all

 

I'd really love to read your opinions. I believe many would.

 

 

 

 

1. Israel ends its illegal blockade of Gaza.  Then, so does Egypt.  The UN then becomes responsible for monitoring what goes in and out of Gaza.

2. Hamas allows a UN agency to safely destroy the tunnels.  The rocket attacks must also stop.

3. Israel stops rationing water, food and medical supplies to Gaza.  The IMF and World Bank make commitments to revitalize the Palestinian economy with infrastructure projects and a sound education and agricultural policy.

4. Fatah forms a unity government with Hamas and assists with the demilitarization of Gaza.

5. Israel ends its occupation of the West Bank and stops once and for all the illegal settlements.  It also forces the illegal settlers to leave immediately.

6. Israel and the unity government negotiate in good faith to return to the pre-1967 borders and the two state solution.

 

The above don't necessarily need to occur in the order I listed.

 

Some of the above was included in Thomas Friedman's recent New York Times article.
 

 

 

Just to address your repeated posts regarding getting no replies - not all posters are on the same time zone, and not all are

necessarily free to post at all times. Personally, trying to read most of the posts before replying and taking the time to dispel

quite a lot of nonsense claims make for a slow progress. Give a man a break .

 

Many of the points listed have to do with Hamas accepting both the notion of peace negotiations and recognition of Israel.

To this day, there is no sign that this is on the menu. The best formulation was to offer a truce (after Israel withdraws to the

1967 lines and other conditions met), which in this context does not amount to neither peace, recognition or more than a

temporary breather (even if long term) until the good fight is renewed. So this would be a major hurdle right there. As long

as Hamas holds on to his ideology, there cannot be peace, and if it lets go of its ideology it would cease to be Hamas.

 

The blockade is not really that hard to tackle, if satisfactory inspections and monitoring are put in place. The trouble with

this is that to date, there was no agreement on how this will work. The UN is not all that keen to get directly involved, as

it is unclear who are the inviting parties. Israel probably would have some misgiving seeing the UN role on Lebanon, not

quite as stellar as it would like. Hamas will have issues with PA/Israeli involvement (the first due to domestic politics, the

second due to ideology). Egypt - Hamas relationship makes Egyptian involvement tricky as well.

 

Once the blockade is down, the whole rationing bit is moot. Funding should not be much of an issue, whether though

IMF, Muslim countries or the new BRICS effort. The problem with that is more of monitoring projects, as seen when

Israel allowed a huge influx of cement and funds by Qatar which did not end up being used for the benefit of the Gazans

but for Hamas projects. Whether such monitoring will be allowed and be effective is an open question.

 

The unity government, or Palestinian reconciliation effort is paramount. As long as the Palestinian speak with a split

voice, things are always going to get more messed up then they already are. The standing issues with this are, again,

Hamas holding on its ideology when it comes to Israel (this both precludes negotiations and makes the PA position quite

shaky in relations to international status and previous agreements with Israel), and its refusal to transfer control over its

armed wing militia. As long as there is an independent fighting force which does not answer to the Palestinian leadership

things could always go wrong.

 

Israeli illegal settlement effort must stop, that's a given. Some ought to be cleared as soon as possible, especially when

near or within Palestinian cities. Whether all are cleared or some stay in return for border adjustments is somewhat of a

detail, but not germane. I would imagine this could not be managed in one stroke and not without plenty of trouble both

vs. the Palestinians and domestically. Jerusalem may be announced to be a shared capital (with the Palestinians on the

eastern side), and an international (or joined) body taking over management of the holy places. Security barrier will be

adjusted or dismantled in a manner that will answer its original purpose while easing life for effected Palestinians. Border

with Jordan (which is basically part of the West Bank) will, at least for quite a long term, be monitored by Israel, or some

form of joint/international credible effort (this has a lot to do with how things pan out for Jordan's future).

 

Arab and Muslim countries will recognize Israel and normalize relations. This would probably not be applicable to all -

Iraq, Lebanon and Syria not in a shape to sign anything, Iran unwilling.

 

Right of Return - monetary compensation to be preferred, as well as assimilation within current host countries where

this will not cause an overdue pressure on political and economic stability. A limited and gradual actual Right of Return

to both Israel and Palestine, and without displacement of existing settlements (excluding illegal Israeli settlements in

the West Bank mentioned earlier). Similar compensation and conditions offered to Israeli Jews from relevant Arab

countries.

 

There probably need to be some international  framework for negotiations accepted on both sides, with limited power

to play arbiter on certain issues.

 

Sure I have missed more than one thing, and of course most of this is depending on a lot of conditions coming true,

but hey - if we can argue about make belief accusations, we might as well dream up some more positive (not delusional)

ideas.

 

 

Israel has had huge issues just trying to resolve housing and compensation issues for the settlers removed from Gaza in 2005. Can you imagine the number of years required for compensation negotiations across multiple countries, at the same time the amount of fuel added to the fire whilst delay upon delay in negotiations? Best to put a stake in the ground for all parties and not bother. The Israeli economy is self sufficient, so put in place a Marshall Plan to rebuild the political institutions, infrastructure and economy for the Palestinians; permission to build a port and airport. Would be plenty of issues concerning oversight so don't know how that would work in practice. Maybe the Arab Bank that I believe is still controlled by Palestinians?

 

The Hamas offer of a ten year truce is of course self serving, but would it provide a breathing space to persuade the Palestinian public that Hamas and other Islamic extremist parties are not the way foreward; eqivalent to the Sunni awakening program in Iraq? At the same time would the current Israeli government survive if it were accepted. If they resigned after acceptance, then put in place elections would the Israelis elect an even more right wing representatives; one can go around and around.

 

As you and JT repeatedely, state that in effect, there are not currently "men of peace" to bring about lasting peace, so my thoughts and those of others, are more than likely a waste of space.

Edited August 3, 2014 by simple1

[Kalebiran]

The deaf Israeli mouthpieces on here.When the UN relief workers on the ground say they have given coordinates of the schools and within hours IDF fire rockets at them .Blind loyalty to a terrorist state who is looking for a "final solution". http://m.asia.wsj.com/articles/gaza-health-ministry-explosions-at-school-kill-15-1406705906?mobile=y Edited August 4, 2014 by Kalebiran

[sirineou]

 

 

 

You might not want my help but you certainly need it, at least in this subject. also you did not answer my question "if it was your land would you give up so easy?" so why should I answer yours?

 

 

 

 

I did ask you first, but to answer your question - no, I won't give up my land easily. I will do everything in my power, which is legal under local and international laws to get it back or get a reasonable compensation for it.

Now can you please answer my questions?

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

Which Apartheid is there in Israel?

 

Some of your questions would be answered in the following videos. the first by no less an authority in the subject  , President  Jimmy Carter and the second By Professor Noam Chomsky 

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faeCA8EmtGo[media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV3YnZnL99M[media]

 

 

How about a summary for those posters not able to to spend a total of 3 hours watching the clips?
 

 

I am sorry but if one is to have an opinion in the subject ,one has to make a minimum investment

The Chomsky video is particularly apropos IMO

Edited August 4, 2014 by sirineou

[Johpa]

Just because it is your opinion that that opposition to this occupation is futile it does not make it so. Obviously the Palestinians do not think so. The region has seen countless of occupiers come and go, and the Zionists are one of them that just as the others could be consign to the dust bins of history . 

 

How long do you think Israel would survive with out the support of the west? Do you think the tax base of Israel has the capacity to support the Israeli military complex? Fortunes in the west could change. and some will say, are changing.

But that's besides the point, the point is that the Palestinians, as any other people have   every right to resist occupation, and every right to complain when they are slaughtered in doing so. And just like the Jews to self determination in their own land, but unlike the Jews they are not trying to achieve it by taking other peoples land, but by defending what is theirs.

Would you give up so easily if it was your land that was taken over, and you were forced to live in the worlds largest open air concentration camp? 

Rather than advising them to give up , you should be supporting their efforts, or at the very least  be outraged that such thing could be happening in this time and age by so called civilized people,

 

 

I am no prophet, nor do I believe in prophecy. Remember, I am an atheist.  I am also a devout pragmatist.  My opinion, as you clearly note, can make no claim to being the final word just as your support of the "resistance" does not make it so that it, the resistance, will succeed.   Yes, the Israelis have every opportunity to be relegated into the dustbin of history.  As you note, fortunes do change.  But I doubt that even without western support of Israel, which would weaken Israel but not destroy it,  that the current cost of "making that so" is worth it.  We have 6 million people with their backs against the wall that have nowhere to go and have nuclear weapons. I offer a solution that allows everyone to get along with their lives.  I myself will not support efforts that I believe are futile and have no likely positive outcome.  What is your endgame?  You offer only more cyclical and unending violence with your talk of resistance.  You seem to equate the situation in Gaza with the resistance to a colonial invasion force such as the French in Algeria or the Americans in Vietnam. Your are sadly mistaken, as are many Gazans and their supporters who use the same misappropriated post-modernist vocabulary.  Neither Gaza nor the majority of the West Bank is "occupied".  There is absolutely no equivalency here.  It is one thing to defeat a relatively small, in relation to the indigenous population, foreign colonial occupation force via "resistance" yet a completely different task to defeat a fully functioning modern industrialized nation-state from the outside. And by the way, I do have feeling of outrage, but I save that for more global issues.

[Scott]

Posts removed for a variety of reason.   

 

[dexterm]

 

Another UN school hit by Israel 10 civilians/children murdered. And the apologists can defend the actions . Now only USA ,Israels lapdog supports them and vetos any investigation into these bombings.Bullys together. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/israel-air-strike-un-school-gaza-rafah

 

When did the USA veto such an investigation?

 

 

Oh they will, they will. Bet you a week's bar bill in any Thai bar you like.

 

The USA will veto any investigation or resolution, because of the embarrassing fact the it is USA weapons that are being used by the  IDF to murder inocent children.

 

"The United States’ veto power in the United Nations Security Council is the single most important factor in enabling Israel’s decades long impunity from international law."

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-pays-lip-service-to-israeli-war-crimes-u-s-veto-power-ensures-israels-impunity-from-international-law/5393912

 

Check the US record in the UN here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

[up-country_sinclair]

Israel murdered 10 people in a UN school today.

 

UN  Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called it  "a moral outrage and a criminal act."

 

The US State Department called it "disgraceful".

 

 

Israel knows no shame.

[Ulysses G.]

"fight hatred.com" 
 
Seems legit

You seem to spend most of your time "exposing" any source with any kind of Jewish involvement - any kind at all - that disagrees with your views. However, if they agree with you, you completely ignore  their ethnic background or make a big deal about the Jewish guy that is on your side.
I see that you have now added websites with names that you don't approve of to your gallant crusade. Congrats on the new angle.   

[Scott]

A number of inflammatory and off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.   Please drop the Nazi references and a discussion of Apartheid is not really applicable to this thread.   

[kblaze]

 

"fight hatred.com" 
 
Seems legit

You seem to spend most of your time "exposing" any source with any kind of Jewish involvement - any kind at all - that disagrees with your views. However, if they agree with you, you completely ignore  their ethnic background or make a big deal about the Jewish guy that is on your side.
I see that you have now added websites with names that you don't approve of to your gallant crusade. Congrats on the new angle.   

 

 

I'm sorry that my exposure of websites upsets you.

 

Any website that says Noam Chomsky, Professor Emeritus at MIT, "likes genocide" deserves exposure.

 

In regards to the part in bold above, I assume that you are confusing me with someone else. 

[dexterm]

Farfetched, (but what's in a name)

 

Are you seriously wanting me to believe a report written by a group in Gaza and backed by the Hamas government? LOL OK, right,. Are you nuts? Would you believe a similar report about Hamas if written by the Israelis? Didn't think so. Nice try anyway.

 

Israeli Foreign Minister Liberman slammed UN Human Rights investigator Navi Pillay recently in the Jerusalem Post for relying on media reports for her accusations, and that she should consult Israel for their side, before pointing the finger.

 

But when the UN does ask Israel, Israel refuses to cooperate....won’t allow its soldiers  to testify. Methinks they have something to hide. 

[Morch]

 

 

 

Most if not all members here are debating who to blame and who is at fault, who are the victims and who are the aggressors.

(My personal opinions on this are known after the 100+ posts I made on this topic)

Aren't you guys interested in peace?

I don't remember seeing any posts about:

- Constructive suggestions on how to resolve the conflict

- Realistic suggestions on how to stop the bloodshed once and for all

 

I'd really love to read your opinions. I believe many would.

 

 

 

 

1. Israel ends its illegal blockade of Gaza.  Then, so does Egypt.  The UN then becomes responsible for monitoring what goes in and out of Gaza.

2. Hamas allows a UN agency to safely destroy the tunnels.  The rocket attacks must also stop.

3. Israel stops rationing water, food and medical supplies to Gaza.  The IMF and World Bank make commitments to revitalize the Palestinian economy with infrastructure projects and a sound education and agricultural policy.

4. Fatah forms a unity government with Hamas and assists with the demilitarization of Gaza.

5. Israel ends its occupation of the West Bank and stops once and for all the illegal settlements.  It also forces the illegal settlers to leave immediately.

6. Israel and the unity government negotiate in good faith to return to the pre-1967 borders and the two state solution.

 

The above don't necessarily need to occur in the order I listed.

 

Some of the above was included in Thomas Friedman's recent New York Times article.
 

 

 

Just to address your repeated posts regarding getting no replies - not all posters are on the same time zone, and not all are

necessarily free to post at all times. Personally, trying to read most of the posts before replying and taking the time to dispel

quite a lot of nonsense claims make for a slow progress. Give a man a break .

 

Many of the points listed have to do with Hamas accepting both the notion of peace negotiations and recognition of Israel.

To this day, there is no sign that this is on the menu. The best formulation was to offer a truce (after Israel withdraws to the

1967 lines and other conditions met), which in this context does not amount to neither peace, recognition or more than a

temporary breather (even if long term) until the good fight is renewed. So this would be a major hurdle right there. As long

as Hamas holds on to his ideology, there cannot be peace, and if it lets go of its ideology it would cease to be Hamas.

 

The blockade is not really that hard to tackle, if satisfactory inspections and monitoring are put in place. The trouble with

this is that to date, there was no agreement on how this will work. The UN is not all that keen to get directly involved, as

it is unclear who are the inviting parties. Israel probably would have some misgiving seeing the UN role on Lebanon, not

quite as stellar as it would like. Hamas will have issues with PA/Israeli involvement (the first due to domestic politics, the

second due to ideology). Egypt - Hamas relationship makes Egyptian involvement tricky as well.

 

Once the blockade is down, the whole rationing bit is moot. Funding should not be much of an issue, whether though

IMF, Muslim countries or the new BRICS effort. The problem with that is more of monitoring projects, as seen when

Israel allowed a huge influx of cement and funds by Qatar which did not end up being used for the benefit of the Gazans

but for Hamas projects. Whether such monitoring will be allowed and be effective is an open question.

 

The unity government, or Palestinian reconciliation effort is paramount. As long as the Palestinian speak with a split

voice, things are always going to get more messed up then they already are. The standing issues with this are, again,

Hamas holding on its ideology when it comes to Israel (this both precludes negotiations and makes the PA position quite

shaky in relations to international status and previous agreements with Israel), and its refusal to transfer control over its

armed wing militia. As long as there is an independent fighting force which does not answer to the Palestinian leadership

things could always go wrong.

 

Israeli illegal settlement effort must stop, that's a given. Some ought to be cleared as soon as possible, especially when

near or within Palestinian cities. Whether all are cleared or some stay in return for border adjustments is somewhat of a

detail, but not germane. I would imagine this could not be managed in one stroke and not without plenty of trouble both

vs. the Palestinians and domestically. Jerusalem may be announced to be a shared capital (with the Palestinians on the

eastern side), and an international (or joined) body taking over management of the holy places. Security barrier will be

adjusted or dismantled in a manner that will answer its original purpose while easing life for effected Palestinians. Border

with Jordan (which is basically part of the West Bank) will, at least for quite a long term, be monitored by Israel, or some

form of joint/international credible effort (this has a lot to do with how things pan out for Jordan's future).

 

Arab and Muslim countries will recognize Israel and normalize relations. This would probably not be applicable to all -

Iraq, Lebanon and Syria not in a shape to sign anything, Iran unwilling.

 

Right of Return - monetary compensation to be preferred, as well as assimilation within current host countries where

this will not cause an overdue pressure on political and economic stability. A limited and gradual actual Right of Return

to both Israel and Palestine, and without displacement of existing settlements (excluding illegal Israeli settlements in

the West Bank mentioned earlier). Similar compensation and conditions offered to Israeli Jews from relevant Arab

countries.

 

There probably need to be some international  framework for negotiations accepted on both sides, with limited power

to play arbiter on certain issues.

 

Sure I have missed more than one thing, and of course most of this is depending on a lot of conditions coming true,

but hey - if we can argue about make belief accusations, we might as well dream up some more positive (not delusional)

ideas.

 

 

Israel has had huge issues just trying to resolve housing and compensation issues for the settlers removed from Gaza in 2005. Can you imagine the number of years required for compensation negotiations across multiple countries, at the same time the amount of fuel added to the fire whilst delay upon delay in negotiations? Best to put a stake in the ground for all parties and not bother. The Israeli economy is self sufficient, so put in place a Marshall Plan to rebuild the political institutions, infrastructure and economy for the Palestinians; permission to build a port and airport. Would be plenty of issues concerning oversight so don't know how that would work in practice. Maybe the Arab Bank that I believe is still controlled by Palestinians?

 

The Hamas offer of a ten year truce is of course self serving, but would it provide a breathing space to persuade the Palestinian public that Hamas and other Islamic extremist parties are not the way foreward; eqivalent to the Sunni awakening program in Iraq? At the same time would the current Israeli government survive if it were accepted. If they resigned after acceptance, then put in place elections would the Israelis elect an even more right wing representatives; one can go around and around.

 

As you and JT repeatedely, state that in effect, there are not currently "men of peace" to bring about lasting peace, so my thoughts and those of others, are more than likely a waste of space.

 

 

The Hamas offer of a truce being bogus is one thing, a bigger problem may be chalked up its ideology. Not seeing any serious negotiations coming to fruit when one side continues to uphold the notion of the others destruction as one ifs core tenants.

 

Leadership is indeed a major obstacle, and unless we're all going to be very much surprised, there isn't much hope looming on either side's horizon.

 

But seeing as we're having a go at this, there is indeed an issue I missed out on, and not an easy one to tackle. The Palestinian geographical split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would ideally be nullified through some sort of land swap. But as things stand this is unfortunately not an option (would just shift the problem and create a similar split through Israel). There are areas in the world where such a split is maintained, sort of, but not sure that this is applicable for a new nation and spirits still running high when it comes to its neighbor. Mind that the original UN partition plan incorporated this problem and even made it worse (adding the same in another area). Perhaps the Hamas could be contracted to build a really big tunnel....? Seriously, no great ideas from me on this one.

[ggold]

Farfetched, (but what's in a name)

 

Are you seriously wanting me to believe a report written by a group in Gaza and backed by the Hamas government? LOL OK, right,. Are you nuts? Would you believe a similar report about Hamas if written by the Israelis? Didn't think so. Nice try anyway.

 

Israeli Foreign Minister Liberman slammed UN Human Rights investigator Navi Pillay recently in the Jerusalem Post for relying on media reports for her accusations, and that she should consult Israel for their side, before pointing the finger.

 

But when the UN does ask Israel, Israel refuses to cooperate....won’t allow its soldiers  to testify. Methinks they have something to hide. 

 

Talk about twisting things around.  Liberman was saying she should ask Israel about Hamas claims before she make accusations, such as hamas rockets landing in Gaza killing Palestinians including children. Which hamas then claim Israel did.

 

The second part of you false comments is about UN investigations which are generally one sided. which can be shown with this, one of her latest comments towards Israel.

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/1/un-condemns-israel-us-not-sharing-iron-dome-hamas/ 

 

The United Nations slammed Israel for possibly committing war crimes in its fight against Hamas — and then backed that accusation by suggesting the Jewish nation ought to be sharing its Iron Dome defensive technology with the very terror group it’s fighting.

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said to members of the media at an “emergency” meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council that Israel was falling short in its duty to protect citizens in the Gaza Strip from getting killed by its rockets.

 

 

How can she be taken seriously?

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

 

I did ask you first, but to answer your question - no, I won't give up my land easily. I will do everything in my power, which is legal under local and international laws to get it back or get a reasonable compensation for it.

Now can you please answer my questions?

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

Which Apartheid is there in Israel?

 

Some of your questions would be answered in the following videos. the first by no less an authority in the subject  , President  Jimmy Carter and the second By Professor Noam Chomsky 

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faeCA8EmtGo[media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV3YnZnL99M[media]

 

 

How about a summary for those posters not able to to spend a total of 3 hours watching the clips?
 

 

I am sorry but if one is to have an opinion in the subject ,one has to make a minimum investment

The Chomsky video is particularly apropos IMO

 

 

I am personally quite at home with knowledge on the topics at hand, and with the opinion of both gentlemen mentioned, even without spending an extra 3 hours of my life re-hashing things I've read, heard and watched before. Reading this and related topics it is quite evident that knowledge is not a requirement for having an opinion, at least for some, which runs contrary to your assertion.

Sadly it seems that linking lengthy clips with particular points of view is considered an opinion, and that having to submit to watching them represents minimal investment.

[Morch]

 

 

Another UN school hit by Israel 10 civilians/children murdered. And the apologists can defend the actions . Now only USA ,Israels lapdog supports them and vetos any investigation into these bombings.Bullys together. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/israel-air-strike-un-school-gaza-rafah

 

When did the USA veto such an investigation?

 

 

Oh they will, they will. Bet you a week's bar bill in any Thai bar you like.

 

The USA will veto any investigation or resolution, because of the embarrassing fact the it is USA weapons that are being used by the  IDF to murder inocent children.

 

"The United States’ veto power in the United Nations Security Council is the single most important factor in enabling Israel’s decades long impunity from international law."

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-pays-lip-service-to-israeli-war-crimes-u-s-veto-power-ensures-israels-impunity-from-international-law/5393912

 

Check the US record in the UN here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

 

 

Right, so it didn't actually happen as can be understood from the original post.  Unfortunately, your memo to the USA didn't get through:

 

 

State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki also called for an investigation into attacks on U.N. schools in densely populated Gaza.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-wants-an-investigation-into-school-bombings-2014-8

 

So, if you don't mind, pack up all that cheap charlie Thai bar bill and make mine a healthy double of  any decent non-Thai whiskey. Currently partial to quality Japanese ones, but not too fussy....

 

Them links, amusing as usual - the first one is an article by the unbiased and objective Kourosh Ziabari, also of presstv fame, among other reputable venues. Surely, anything he writes on this is gospel and of course, the interviews George Bisharat, is totally non-biased at all. Second link, unless I missed something is nothing more than a list of all UN resolutions pertaining to Israel and Palestine....Not a record of how the USA voted. There is indeed a brief mention of the UN not happy with USA veto right used in conjunction with Israel and an explanation linked to the Negroponte Doctrine (which explains the chicken and egg nature of this argument) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroponte_doctrine

 

Interestingly enough, the link does start with mentioning something often repeated on these topics - 

 

As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council since its creation in 2006 the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council...

 

Now, I'm sure that some would say Israel's evil deeds are equal to those of the rest of the world, but perhaps, somewhere deep inside they know how ridiculous this is.