Anger mounts as Gaza toll rises

[sirineou]

 

Hamas want their people's land back. Can you blame them for that?

 

I suppose the Tibetans want their land back. There are some Native Americans who would like their land back.  I suspect that there are some Mon down south and Karen up north along the Burmese border who would like their land back.  There are countless displaced groups in the Balkans that would like their land back. There are people who were displaced by the Magyars or displaced by Turkomans who want their land back.  There were once Germans in the Ukraine who might want their land back.  The Kurds would just like a land of their own.  And the Jews now have a land that they call their own and yet everyone would like to see history reversed for the Jews.  As painful as it may seem, it all comes back to that old rock and roll song lyrics "you can't always get what you want". So you either engage in futile acts to reverse history or you move forward in a new direction playing the best hand you have been dealt.  That is the choice.

 

You got to be kidding?

The rational of Israel is that the Jews want their land back after thousands of years, yet the Palestinians can not want their land back after a few decades?

[Jingthing]

If it could be solved on an internet forum it would be long ago solved. Face it this conflict will still be going decades from now and likely more. It goes backwards not forwards.

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[MJP]

And people call ME a drama queene.

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

The interviews with Mosab Hassan Yousef certainly seem to indicate this.

 

After watching a few of these I realized what Israel is up against. I still don't think the way to tackle it is with force, especially the level of lethal force we're witnessing. Somehow Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of the Palestinians thus extinguishing the Hamas rhetoric and popularity.

 

But following this latest onslaught that may not be for a generation or so now.

 

[dr_lucas]

If it could be solved on an internet forum it would be long ago solved. Face it this conflict will still be going decades from now and likely more. It goes backwards not forwards.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Nobody suggested it can be solved in an internet forum or that we can solve it here.

Certainly hope, especially for all directly involved in this conflict, that you are wrong about the future of this conflict and that peace will come one day, sooner rather than later.

Making suggestions and bringing up ideas on how in your opinion/s it can be resolved, is one way to start moving forward instead of backwards, including moving the discussion forward instead of backwards or in cycles as it has been moving here for the past 2 weeks.

The way I see it, all this discussion is quite pointless if all it does is just throwing blames and bringing up historical analysis and such.

Better discuss possible ways of resolution, not possible ways of telling each other who is more right or wrong.

 

Just my 2c worth.

[up-country_sinclair]

 Face it this conflict will still be going decades from now and likely more. It goes backwards not forwards.
 

 

As I posted earlier, one could conclude that certain posters are as disinterested in peace as Israel.
 

[Jingthing]

 Face it this conflict will still be going decades from now and likely more. It goes backwards not forwards.
 

 
As I posted earlier, one could conclude that certain posters are as disinterested in peace as Israel.
 

Given up hope actually. Been talking about a 2 state solution all my life. It is much less possible now. Living in fantasy land seems a folly now.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Edited August 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[joepublic]

And people call ME a drama queene.

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Pure hysteria - No one wants death per se.

 

- Hamas wants the occupation to end, and the Palestine to return to their land.

- The Zionists want to keep and expand on the land they stole.

[Jingthing]

 

And people call ME a drama queene.

Hamas doesn't want peace. They want death.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 
Pure hysteria - No one wants death per se.
 
- Hamas wants the occupation to end, and the Palestine to return to their land.
- The Zionists want to keep and expand on the land they stole.

Hamas is a death cult.

Gaza isn't occupied.

You've been informed of that about 100 times already.

Yes Hamas wants ALL of Israel.

Israel (not the "Zionists" -- the LEGITIMATE nation state of ISRAEL) has borders that are in DISPUTE like LOTS of other countries. Using the word "stole" about ALL of Israel is just inflammatory rubbish. 

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[coma]

More children killed after yet another airstrike on a UN school in Gaza. Israel is filth.

[MJP]

More children killed after yet another airstrike on a UN school in Gaza. Israel is filth.

 

Certainly isn't winning hearts and minds and that's the only way to end this decades long conflict

[Jingthing]

More children killed after yet another airstrike on a UN school in Gaza. Israel is filth.

Before this current war, was Israel merely untidy?

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

 

More children killed after yet another airstrike on a UN school in Gaza. Israel is filth.

 

Certainly isn't winning hearts and minds and that's the only way to end this decades long conflict

 

I find that POV naive. We're talking about the middle east. Not the San Francisco bay area. In that area of the world only force is respected. Israel wouldn't have existed their first year without military force. Look all over the middle east. Multiple instances of mass killing based on religions/ethnicity much worse than the current mess in Gaza. Look at Iraq. Look at Syria. That is Israel's barrio. 

 

That said, Israel's long term tactics have not been smart. Right now, they are going for another short term tactic. Secure Gaza militarily to last hopefully for a number of years. It doesn't pretend to solve any long term problems. In the long run this has got to be unsustainable but that doesn't mean the end result is going to be a two state solution either. 

Edited August 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

Morch,

 

 

Israel eventually gave back the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza because they had to. Their occupation was illegal..by the Geneva Convention and UN Charter you can’t hold onto land conquered in war in the 21^st century, plus another war with Egypt and Gaza occupation was too costly in Israeli lives. Why don’t they do the same in the whole of the West Bank that they occupied in 1967...that’s illegal too.

 

Oh, Morch....what a sneaky use of language...what an incredible act of Israeli generosity to give Palestinians control over a mere portion of the West Bank land they once held 100%. If there weren’t any Israeli colonies in the West Bank before 1967, and now there are, in any man’s language that’s expansion. It’s like a squatter steals your house, and generously allows you to live in a couple of bedrooms while he takes the rest.

 

But it’s early days still, many right wing Israelis talk about annexing the whole of the West Bank for Israeli Lebensraum.

 

Cards issued prior 2005 had one’s ethnicity written on them. But any official even post 2005 can instantly tell if he is looking at the card of a Jew or Arab because the date of birth on the IDs of Jews is given according to the Hebrew calendar. In addition, the ID of an Arab, unlike a Jew, includes the grandfather’s name.

 

West Bank Palestinians have orange cards while Israelis have blue. Does an Israeli settler in the West bank have a P for Palestine on their number plate?

 

You are being totally disingenuous about the marriage rights. As you well know an Israeli Jew is allowed to marry anyone in the world, even a gentile, and bring them to live as a spouse in Israel, but an Israeli Arab cannot...that would upset the ratio of Jews to non Jews. That is the sole racist reason for the law which made the Haaretz editor feel Israel was becoming an apartheid state.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/citizenship-law-makes-israel-an-apartheid-state-1.248635

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.590228

 

When Israeli tanks and jets fire at schools and hospitals, totally illegally under the rules of war, even if there is a Hamas fighter firing a mortar from the front gates, and 15 children are killed, Israel claims it is somehow not responsible yet they pulled the trigger. It’s as though the victims don’t exist, yet the bodies pile up each day. One poster earlier in the thread referred to lefties getting upset just because a few Palestinians had been killed. That’s what I mean by dehumanizing the victims, so when you kill the present astronomical number of civilians in Gaza its as though they are non people and dont count.

 

 

 

How do you mean "had to"? Israel gave back the Sinai peninsula in exchange for peace with Egypt.

If there was not peace deal there would have been no handing back of the Sinai peninsula.

 

Israel did not withdraw from the Gaza Strip because it "had to". The Israeli government figured that

the cost of holding on to the Gaza Strip was too high, and that public opinion was in favor of the move.

If either of these would have been different - there would have been no withdrawal.

 

Israel held to both for quite a while, so hardly the case that it suddenly realized something was illegal.

There was not war with Egypt on the cards at the time of the peace negotiations.

 

So that sort of answers your first faulty logic question - Israel did not let go of land because of the legal

issues, and not because it "had to". It did so when it could get a stable agreement or when the cost of

holding on to the land was deemed too high, and public opinion was supportive of this action.

 

Next bit of faulty logic - The Palestinians never had real control over their lands (the closest to this being

a puppet regime set up in the Gaza Strip after 1949, and brought to an end by Egypt in 1959). The notion

that the Palestinian somehow managed their own affairs prior to either 1948 or 1967 is bogus. The current

situation, where the Palestinian Authority manages part of the West Bank, and the Hamas has control of

the Gaza Strip is in fact the peak of Palestinian self rule, ever. It is not a proud heritage, it is certainly not a

happy situation - it is reality. That is not to say that lands owned by Palestinians were not taken over by

Israel - that is entirely correct. The two things are not quite the same, though. The Palestinians were never

independent as such, and on this front, at least, their current situation is better than before.

 

There are not "many" Israelis, not even right wingers, talking about annexing the West Bank. I am sure you

can bring a link to some politician saying as much, but it is far from being a generally accepted sentiment.

There are inherent difficulties with taking this course of action which make its implementation quite hazardous

to Israel's existence as a state.

 

You are quite clueless on immigration rights of non-Jews, even those married to Israeli Jews. To keep it short,

its not nearly as easy as you seem to think. Like many countries worried about their identity, there are quite a

lot of hurdles when going this way. The law is not block Arab Israelis from marrying anyone, it limits immigration

rights of Palestinian spouses to Israel. I gave, on at least two occasions, one of the during the current hostilities,

a review and my personal opinion regarding this very same article and law. Citing the same article again will not

make it any more a God given truth - try and find new arguments, or be bothered to put forth your own.

 

I would differentiate between shock and dismay as to casualties (which I assure you, I share), and between the

legalities. As far as I understand, many situations which instinctively would seem in contradiction to our accepted

morals are in fact sanctioned by international law. It would seem that on occasion international law was made in

order to protect counties backsides, rather than the receiving end. While there is a lot of talk (and the same goes

on whenever almost any military operation worldwide is being carried out) about war crimes etc. - the fallout is not

always as bad as expected by those calling for justice. That could be interpreted as crappy law making, countries

wiggling out or not caring for consequences, or for a pseudo-legal hyping of expectations.

 

One poster making an obtuse remark does not make a general claim very strong, really. Dehumanizing rivals is

an exclusively Israeli trait, quite a bit of it on Palestinian media and even on TVF as applied to Israelis and Jews.

As for "astronomical numbers" - yes, casualty figures are high, astronomical would be an exaggeration, though.

Similar and higher casualty figures in other conflicts. Somehow these are all sidelined at the moment.

[coma]

More children killed after yet another airstrike on a UN school in Gaza. Israel is filth.

 
Certainly isn't winning hearts and minds and that's the only way to end this decades long conflict

Indeed. Not this percieved 10 eyes for an eye rubbish.

[coma]

More children killed after yet another airstrike on a UN school in Gaza. Israel is filth.

Before this current war, was Israel merely untidy?
 

Possibly. They seem to really out doing themselves this time. Snubbing the entire worlds call for mercy. And total and absolute disregard for the rules of war and humanity. They are without doubt war criminals. And no sane human being can deny this fact.

[Jingthing]

Today Hamas fired missiles targeted at Tel Aviv. Asking for mercy and still attacking Israel? This ridiculous suggesting there is only one side here is just a convenient blindness. 

[Johpa]

 

 

Hamas want their people's land back. Can you blame them for that?

 

I suppose the Tibetans want their land back. There are some Native Americans who would like their land back.  I suspect that there are some Mon down south and Karen up north along the Burmese border who would like their land back.  There are countless displaced groups in the Balkans that would like their land back. There are people who were displaced by the Magyars or displaced by Turkomans who want their land back.  There were once Germans in the Ukraine who might want their land back.  The Kurds would just like a land of their own.  And the Jews now have a land that they call their own and yet everyone would like to see history reversed for the Jews.  As painful as it may seem, it all comes back to that old rock and roll song lyrics "you can't always get what you want". So you either engage in futile acts to reverse history or you move forward in a new direction playing the best hand you have been dealt.  That is the choice.

 

You got to be kidding?

The rational of Israel is that the Jews want their land back after thousands of years, yet the Palestinians can not want their land back after a few decades?

 

 

You completely miss my point.  I care not a whit about religious claims (I am a devout atheist:there is no god) nor historical claims.  I have noted many times here that by today's standards neither myself, nor anyone else, would agree to the creation of Israel.  What I have noted are that the tides of history are brutal; that within the greater narrative of history there are winners and losers;  and that Israel is no less a fait accompli than is the United States or Australia or Hungary or Thailand.  One can fight against historical tides, but at what cost?  Israel is not going to go away unless the Arabs wish to sacrifice generations for a goal that has only a small chance of success. If you think the sacrifice of generations of Gazans or other Arabs over a small piece of land is worth the price of armed opposition to existence of Israel then by all means encourage the support of an intransigent political group like Hamas and the continued shelling and endure the consequences.  But then don't come crying to me about civilian casualties.  I for one do not think it is worth the cost, especially given that Gaza and the West Bank can align with Jordan into a relatively homogenous cultural nation-state, with ports on both the Mediterranean as well as the Red Sea, and become a nation-state that would be large enough to be economically viable in today's world.  I think the Levantine Arabs should drop the effort at eradicating Israel, drop the futility of hoping to return, and get on with their lives as countless other peoples have done throughout time.

[Jingthing]

But they won't. Why they won't is kind of interesting. It isn't only about Israel by a long shot.

[Jingthing]

I still agree with Golda Meir's quote starting with "Peace will come ..."

 

BUT ... 

the other quote I think doesn't quite hit the mark but still in light of current events ... is interesting:

 

[attachment=277796:10590507_878383112175888_6025973820756452757_n-550x412.jpg]

 

From a large pro-Israel rally today in J-burg, South Africa.

 

[attachment=277797:10557394_10154366905260214_4389030545621647132_n.jpg]

 

Toward the brink. That's a bit ironic.

 

[attachment=277801:golda_meir.jpg]

Edited August 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[sirineou]

 

 

 

Hamas want their people's land back. Can you blame them for that?

 

I suppose the Tibetans want their land back. There are some Native Americans who would like their land back.  I suspect that there are some Mon down south and Karen up north along the Burmese border who would like their land back.  There are countless displaced groups in the Balkans that would like their land back. There are people who were displaced by the Magyars or displaced by Turkomans who want their land back.  There were once Germans in the Ukraine who might want their land back.  The Kurds would just like a land of their own.  And the Jews now have a land that they call their own and yet everyone would like to see history reversed for the Jews.  As painful as it may seem, it all comes back to that old rock and roll song lyrics "you can't always get what you want". So you either engage in futile acts to reverse history or you move forward in a new direction playing the best hand you have been dealt.  That is the choice.

 

You got to be kidding?

The rational of Israel is that the Jews want their land back after thousands of years, yet the Palestinians can not want their land back after a few decades?

 

 

You completely miss my point.  I care not a whit about religious claims (I am a devout atheist:there is no god) nor historical claims.  I have noted many times here that by today's standards neither myself, nor anyone else, would agree to the creation of Israel.  What I have noted are that the tides of history are brutal; that within the greater narrative of history there are winners and losers;  and that Israel is no less a fait accompli than is the United States or Australia or Hungary or Thailand.  One can fight against historical tides, but at what cost?  Israel is not going to go away unless the Arabs wish to sacrifice generations for a goal that has only a small chance of success. If you think the sacrifice of generations of Gazans or other Arabs over a small piece of land is worth the price of armed opposition to existence of Israel then by all means encourage the support of an intransigent political group like Hamas and the continued shelling and endure the consequences.  But then don't come crying to me about civilian casualties.  I for one do not think it is worth the cost, especially given that Gaza and the West Bank can align with Jordan into a relatively homogenous cultural nation-state, with ports on both the Mediterranean as well as the Red Sea, and become a nation-state that would be large enough to be economically viable in today's world.  I think the Levantine Arabs should drop the effort at eradicating Israel, drop the futility of hoping to return, and get on with their lives as countless other peoples have done throughout time.

 

Just because it is your opinion that that opposition to this occupation is futile it does not make it so. Obviously the Palestinians do not think so. The region has seen countless of occupiers come and go, and the Zionists are one of them that just as the others could be consign to the dust bins of history . 

How long do you think Israel would survive with out the support of the west? Do you think the tax base of Israel has the capacity to support the Israeli military complex? Fortunes in the west could change. and some will say, are changing.

But that's besides the point, the point is that the Palestinians, as any other people have   every right to resist occupation, and every right to complain when they are slaughtered in doing so. And just like the Jews to self determination in their own land, but unlike the Jews they are not trying to achieve it by taking other peoples land, but by defending what is theirs.

Would you give up so easily if it was your land that was taken over, and you were forced to live in the worlds largest open air concentration camp? 

Rather than advising them to give up , you should be supporting their efforts, or at the very least  be outraged that such thing could be happening in this time and age by so called civilized people,

Edited August 3, 2014 by sirineou

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose the Tibetans want their land back. There are some Native Americans who would like their land back.  I suspect that there are some Mon down south and Karen up north along the Burmese border who would like their land back.  There are countless displaced groups in the Balkans that would like their land back. There are people who were displaced by the Magyars or displaced by Turkomans who want their land back.  There were once Germans in the Ukraine who might want their land back.  The Kurds would just like a land of their own.  And the Jews now have a land that they call their own and yet everyone would like to see history reversed for the Jews.  As painful as it may seem, it all comes back to that old rock and roll song lyrics "you can't always get what you want". So you either engage in futile acts to reverse history or you move forward in a new direction playing the best hand you have been dealt.  That is the choice.

 

You got to be kidding?

The rational of Israel is that the Jews want their land back after thousands of years, yet the Palestinians can not want their land back after a few decades?

 

 

You completely miss my point.  I care not a whit about religious claims (I am a devout atheist:there is no god) nor historical claims.  I have noted many times here that by today's standards neither myself, nor anyone else, would agree to the creation of Israel.  What I have noted are that the tides of history are brutal; that within the greater narrative of history there are winners and losers;  and that Israel is no less a fait accompli than is the United States or Australia or Hungary or Thailand.  One can fight against historical tides, but at what cost?  Israel is not going to go away unless the Arabs wish to sacrifice generations for a goal that has only a small chance of success. If you think the sacrifice of generations of Gazans or other Arabs over a small piece of land is worth the price of armed opposition to existence of Israel then by all means encourage the support of an intransigent political group like Hamas and the continued shelling and endure the consequences.  But then don't come crying to me about civilian casualties.  I for one do not think it is worth the cost, especially given that Gaza and the West Bank can align with Jordan into a relatively homogenous cultural nation-state, with ports on both the Mediterranean as well as the Red Sea, and become a nation-state that would be large enough to be economically viable in today's world.  I think the Levantine Arabs should drop the effort at eradicating Israel, drop the futility of hoping to return, and get on with their lives as countless other peoples have done throughout time.

 

Just because it is your opinion that that opposition to this occupation is futile it does not make it so. Obviously the Palestinians do not think so. The region has seen countless of occupiers come and go, and the Zionists are one of them that just as the others could be consign to the dust bins of history . 

How long do you think Israel would survive with out the support of the west? Do you think the tax base of Israel has the capacity to support the Israeli military complex? Fortunes in the west could change. and some will say, are changing.

But that's besides the point, the point is that the Palestinians, as any other people have   every right to resist occupation, and every right to complain when they are slaughtered in doing so. And just like the Jews to self determination in their own land, but unlike the Jews they are not trying to achieve it by taking other peoples land, but by defending what is theirs.

Would you give up so easily if it was your land that was taken over, and you were forced to live in the worlds largest open air concentration camp? 

Rather than advising them to give up , you should be supporting their efforts, or at the very least  be outraged that such thing could be happening in this time and age by so called civilized people,

 

 

From your entire blaming post I still didn't get a few things:

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

[Morch]

Most ordinary people , apart from the die hard Israeli supporters, are at a loss as to how a supposed civilized democratic country can overwhelmingly support this slaughter on innocent woman and children.

 

I can no longer have rational conversations with my closest Israeli friends, who are for the most part secular , left wing and used to hate Netanyahu.What is going on?

 

This report which in no way answers that question, but it does say something about the way things have changed in Israel.The term anti Semite is used to too liberally against the people who criticize the Israeli governments actions, but it seems that racist hatred is as common within Israel especially amongst the young, and that obviously includes many conscripted IDF soldiers,  and this can only help to fuel the fire that they see the Palestinians as lesser human beings.

 

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/israeli-racism-gaza-kleinfeld-511

 

That is not bad article actually. Touches on many issues which are real and true.

There is definitely a change on this front, or if one wishes to term it differently, an increase of the same old.

A lot of it can be attributed to right wing politicians - which came first, the radicalization of the public or radicalization

of the right wing politicians may be an open question.

 

While there is no denying that many of the descriptions and thoughts expressed conform to reality, there are some

points which are left unaddressed. Laying it all on right wing politicians or saying the Zionism is the root of it, tempting

as it is, assumes that Israeli Jews opinions are formed in a vacuum, rather than influenced and shaped in the context

of underlying existing conditions. Before I go any further with this, let me assure you that I'm pretty sure I'd be clubbed

by some of the mobs described for some of the things I posted here...so, not condoning or justifying any of it.

 

Israel does not have a democratic system to rival Western nations. Period. Is it more democratic than its neighbors?

Yes, absolutely. The gap between these two assertions is responsible for a lot of confusion and muddled debate, much

in evidence on TVF and elsewhere. Comes down to which standard is used to "judge" Israel (and my impression is that

this would usually be exactly the full blown democratic systems of Western nations), and/or to which standard is claimed

(or aspired to) by Israel.

 

My personal view is that things are not black and white, and that there are different levels of democracy displayed by

nations (sometimes even variants of the same on different issues). Considering that most Western nations do not face

the same level of challenges to their democratic systems - setting the bar too high may be disingenuous. Israel is not

Norway. On the other hand, Israeli claims to be on the forefront of democracy quite obviously do not quite measure up

to reality, and do not go down well when combined with setting the bar too low (as in comparing Israel with obviously

non-democratic, or lower level democratic systems).

 

Another issue with the article is that it totally ignores the effect ongoing terrorism (and this is a good example of just how

terrorism is effective in shaping public sentiment even without a huge casualty list), and the current actions taken by Arab

Israelis. There wasn't a whole lot of coverage of this, as events in Gaza Strip quickly overtook media attention - but there

were riots going on in quite a few places all over Israel, which were certainly tied to the recent surge of hatred expressed

on social networks (again, a bit of chicken and egg thing). For a lot of Israelis this sort of thing raises fears of an "enemy

within" (which it turn is exploited by politicians).

 

Overall, the article presents a rather one-sided view (albeit, admittedly doing a decent job of it, many things spot on), with

all of the people interviewed can safely be said to be holding left and even far-left views. Not much of an attempt at a

balanced presentation, as such. Then again, considering the atmosphere, might not be the easiest piece to research and

publish. Several factual errors, and a few hyped out descriptions, but not to an extent which would discredit the whole

effort.

 

It could be further argued that the same, and more, are evident on the Palestinian (and especially relevant to the Hamas)

side, and that the article does not really covers this issue. Palestinian racism aside (plenty of that), this argument goes

back to the democratic/moral standard aspired to. I would say that constantly comparing Israel to Hamas detracts from

Israel's image, while on the other hand, totally ignoring this comparison amounts to a blinkered view.

[Morch]

And a decent civilised country would never bomb and slaughter innocent civilians in a collective punishment.

 

USA did it.

UK did it.

Russia did it.

 

Just a few examples, probably can come up with more.

Does this mean they are denied decent-civilized status by you?
 

[Morch]

Firing missiles into schools, hospitals and UN buildings.

Cutting off water supplies and electricity.

Murdering women and children.

 

Israel is a rogue state that causes the most instability and threatens world peace with alarming regularity.  Something needs to be done to stop Israel.

 

Define "threatening world peace". How many countries are actually involved in the fighting or effected by them?
 

[sirineou]

 

Just because it is your opinion that that opposition to this occupation is futile it does not make it so. Obviously the Palestinians do not think so. The region has seen countless of occupiers come and go, and the Zionists are one of them that just as the others could be consign to the dust bins of history . 

 

 

 

How long do you think Israel would survive with out the support of the west? Do you think the tax base of Israel has the capacity to support the Israeli military complex? Fortunes in the west could change. and some will say, are changing.

But that's besides the point, the point is that the Palestinians, as any other people have   every right to resist occupation, and every right to complain when they are slaughtered in doing so. And just like the Jews to self determination in their own land, but unlike the Jews they are not trying to achieve it by taking other peoples land, but by defending what is theirs.

Would you give up so easily if it was your land that was taken over, and you were forced to live in the worlds largest open air concentration camp? 

Rather than advising them to give up , you should be supporting their efforts, or at the very least  be outraged that such thing could be happening in this time and age by so called civilized people,

 

 

From your entire blaming post I still didn't get a few things:

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

 

Blaming post? If I have any blame it would be for the insensitivity of the Zionist apologists to the plight of the Palestinian people

If by now you don't know the answers to your above questions, I am afraid I can not help you

But I will tell you this, the Greeks resisted Ottoman occupation for 400 years and were eventually successful they did not give up because it was futile, obviously it was not.

if you think the Palestinians will give up and capitulate in a few decades you lack the necessary historical perspective .

Apartheid was wrong for South Africa, and it is wrong for Israel.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

Just because it is your opinion that that opposition to this occupation is futile it does not make it so. Obviously the Palestinians do not think so. The region has seen countless of occupiers come and go, and the Zionists are one of them that just as the others could be consign to the dust bins of history . 

 

 

 

How long do you think Israel would survive with out the support of the west? Do you think the tax base of Israel has the capacity to support the Israeli military complex? Fortunes in the west could change. and some will say, are changing.

But that's besides the point, the point is that the Palestinians, as any other people have   every right to resist occupation, and every right to complain when they are slaughtered in doing so. And just like the Jews to self determination in their own land, but unlike the Jews they are not trying to achieve it by taking other peoples land, but by defending what is theirs.

Would you give up so easily if it was your land that was taken over, and you were forced to live in the worlds largest open air concentration camp? 

Rather than advising them to give up , you should be supporting their efforts, or at the very least  be outraged that such thing could be happening in this time and age by so called civilized people,

 

 

From your entire blaming post I still didn't get a few things:

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

 

Blaming post? If I have any blame it would be for the insensitivity of the Zionist apologists to the plight of the Palestinian people

If by now you don't know the answers to your above questions, I am afraid I can not help you

But I will tell you this, the Greeks resisted Ottoman occupation for 400 years and were eventually successful they did not give up because it was futile, obviously it was not.

if you think the Palestinians will give up and capitulate in a few decades you lack the necessary historical perspective .

Apartheid was wrong for South Africa, and it is wrong for Israel.

 

 

I don't want or need you to help me. I certainly know what I think about it, I have no idea what you think/know tho.

Your post included an opinion that lacked answers to the key points, makes your post quite vague and incomplete.

So you can't answer the questions? Too tough?

 

Oh, and one more question - which Apartheid is there in Israel?

Edited August 3, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Jay Sata]

I wish the mods would sort the trolls so we can have a decent debate.

[sirineou]

 

 

 

Just because it is your opinion that that opposition to this occupation is futile it does not make it so. Obviously the Palestinians do not think so. The region has seen countless of occupiers come and go, and the Zionists are one of them that just as the others could be consign to the dust bins of history . 

 

 

 

How long do you think Israel would survive with out the support of the west? Do you think the tax base of Israel has the capacity to support the Israeli military complex? Fortunes in the west could change. and some will say, are changing.

But that's besides the point, the point is that the Palestinians, as any other people have   every right to resist occupation, and every right to complain when they are slaughtered in doing so. And just like the Jews to self determination in their own land, but unlike the Jews they are not trying to achieve it by taking other peoples land, but by defending what is theirs.

Would you give up so easily if it was your land that was taken over, and you were forced to live in the worlds largest open air concentration camp? 

Rather than advising them to give up , you should be supporting their efforts, or at the very least  be outraged that such thing could be happening in this time and age by so called civilized people,

 

 

From your entire blaming post I still didn't get a few things:

What is occupied exactly?

What do you suggest that Israel ("The-Zionists") will do exactly? 

What do you suggest the Palestinians will do exactly?

What are the resolution to the problems you describe?

 

Blaming post? If I have any blame it would be for the insensitivity of the Zionist apologists to the plight of the Palestinian people

If by now you don't know the answers to your above questions, I am afraid I can not help you

But I will tell you this, the Greeks resisted Ottoman occupation for 400 years and were eventually successful they did not give up because it was futile, obviously it was not.

if you think the Palestinians will give up and capitulate in a few decades you lack the necessary historical perspective .

Apartheid was wrong for South Africa, and it is wrong for Israel.

 

 

I don't want or need you to help me. I certainly know what I think about it, I have no idea what you think/know tho.

Your post included an opinion that lacked answers to the key points, makes your post quite vague and incomplete.

So you can't answer the questions? Too tough?

 

Oh, and one more question - which Apartheid is there in Israel?

 

You might not want my help but you certainly need it, at least in this subject. also you did not answer my question "if it was your land would you give up so easy?" so why should I answer yours?

[Morch]

 

Most if not all members here are debating who to blame and who is at fault, who are the victims and who are the aggressors.

(My personal opinions on this are known after the 100+ posts I made on this topic)

Aren't you guys interested in peace?

I don't remember seeing any posts about:

- Constructive suggestions on how to resolve the conflict

- Realistic suggestions on how to stop the bloodshed once and for all

 

I'd really love to read your opinions. I believe many would.

 

 

 

 

1. Israel ends its illegal blockade of Gaza.  Then, so does Egypt.  The UN then becomes responsible for monitoring what goes in and out of Gaza.

2. Hamas allows a UN agency to safely destroy the tunnels.  The rocket attacks must also stop.

3. Israel stops rationing water, food and medical supplies to Gaza.  The IMF and World Bank make commitments to revitalize the Palestinian economy with infrastructure projects and a sound education and agricultural policy.

4. Fatah forms a unity government with Hamas and assists with the demilitarization of Gaza.

5. Israel ends its occupation of the West Bank and stops once and for all the illegal settlements.  It also forces the illegal settlers to leave immediately.

6. Israel and the unity government negotiate in good faith to return to the pre-1967 borders and the two state solution.

 

The above don't necessarily need to occur in the order I listed.

 

Some of the above was included in Thomas Friedman's recent New York Times article.
 

 

 

Just to address your repeated posts regarding getting no replies - not all posters are on the same time zone, and not all are

necessarily free to post at all times. Personally, trying to read most of the posts before replying and taking the time to dispel

quite a lot of nonsense claims make for a slow progress. Give a man a break .

 

Many of the points listed have to do with Hamas accepting both the notion of peace negotiations and recognition of Israel.

To this day, there is no sign that this is on the menu. The best formulation was to offer a truce (after Israel withdraws to the

1967 lines and other conditions met), which in this context does not amount to neither peace, recognition or more than a

temporary breather (even if long term) until the good fight is renewed. So this would be a major hurdle right there. As long

as Hamas holds on to his ideology, there cannot be peace, and if it lets go of its ideology it would cease to be Hamas.

 

The blockade is not really that hard to tackle, if satisfactory inspections and monitoring are put in place. The trouble with

this is that to date, there was no agreement on how this will work. The UN is not all that keen to get directly involved, as

it is unclear who are the inviting parties. Israel probably would have some misgiving seeing the UN role on Lebanon, not

quite as stellar as it would like. Hamas will have issues with PA/Israeli involvement (the first due to domestic politics, the

second due to ideology). Egypt - Hamas relationship makes Egyptian involvement tricky as well.

 

Once the blockade is down, the whole rationing bit is moot. Funding should not be much of an issue, whether though

IMF, Muslim countries or the new BRICS effort. The problem with that is more of monitoring projects, as seen when

Israel allowed a huge influx of cement and funds by Qatar which did not end up being used for the benefit of the Gazans

but for Hamas projects. Whether such monitoring will be allowed and be effective is an open question.

 

The unity government, or Palestinian reconciliation effort is paramount. As long as the Palestinian speak with a split

voice, things are always going to get more messed up then they already are. The standing issues with this are, again,

Hamas holding on its ideology when it comes to Israel (this both precludes negotiations and makes the PA position quite

shaky in relations to international status and previous agreements with Israel), and its refusal to transfer control over its

armed wing militia. As long as there is an independent fighting force which does not answer to the Palestinian leadership

things could always go wrong.

 

Israeli illegal settlement effort must stop, that's a given. Some ought to be cleared as soon as possible, especially when

near or within Palestinian cities. Whether all are cleared or some stay in return for border adjustments is somewhat of a

detail, but not germane. I would imagine this could not be managed in one stroke and not without plenty of trouble both

vs. the Palestinians and domestically. Jerusalem may be announced to be a shared capital (with the Palestinians on the

eastern side), and an international (or joined) body taking over management of the holy places. Security barrier will be

adjusted or dismantled in a manner that will answer its original purpose while easing life for effected Palestinians. Border

with Jordan (which is basically part of the West Bank) will, at least for quite a long term, be monitored by Israel, or some

form of joint/international credible effort (this has a lot to do with how things pan out for Jordan's future).

 

Arab and Muslim countries will recognize Israel and normalize relations. This would probably not be applicable to all -

Iraq, Lebanon and Syria not in a shape to sign anything, Iran unwilling.

 

Right of Return - monetary compensation to be preferred, as well as assimilation within current host countries where

this will not cause an overdue pressure on political and economic stability. A limited and gradual actual Right of Return

to both Israel and Palestine, and without displacement of existing settlements (excluding illegal Israeli settlements in

the West Bank mentioned earlier). Similar compensation and conditions offered to Israeli Jews from relevant Arab

countries.

 

There probably need to be some international  framework for negotiations accepted on both sides, with limited power

to play arbiter on certain issues.

 

Sure I have missed more than one thing, and of course most of this is depending on a lot of conditions coming true,

but hey - if we can argue about make belief accusations, we might as well dream up some more positive (not delusional)

ideas.

[Jay Sata]

An attack that killed 10 people at a UN-run Gaza school was a "moral outrage and a criminal act", UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has said.

It constituted a "gross violation of international law", Mr Ban said.

State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said the US was appalled by the "disgraceful" shelling.

Source BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28632287

Let us hope we see the warmongers led by Netanyahu in The Hague court soon.

In the meantime the world must boycott Israel . Edited August 3, 2014 by Jay Sata