The Thai Schooling system - just how bad is it?

[Morakot]

That 2 + 2 = 4 ... rather then why 2 + 2 = 4.

That's rather profound!

If you set the bar that high, I'm sure they will do pretty well in the future.

[Morakot]

If you hate your kids educated them here .

What pointless generalisation. Best to read this thread for more information.

[LucidLucifer]

The minimum Key Stage 1 (ages 5-7) National Curriculum level deemed acceptable by OFSTED for reading, writing and maths is a 2c. Data compiled over the last 20 years clearly shows that any child that misses a 2c in only one of the three core skills at the end of KS1 only has a 19% chance of achieving 5 GCSEs grade A-C, and if they miss two, that chance falls to around 8%. Five A-C passes is the normal requirement to procede on to A-levels and then university entrance.

Good schooling at all ages is imperative - if a child doesn't have a solid start and the right foundations of skills, they will forever be playing catch up.

I'm not in anyway doubting the importance of good early years schooling. In fact I agree wholeheartedly that it is hugely important. However, we also know that students with poor early years education, given the right opportunities, can in later years do extremely well.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Ofsted performance data also included cognitive ability test data? This type of data really makes me think about how much of the outcome was to some extent pre-ordained by genetic potential...

As I said, i'm not doubting the value of quality early years education, it's just that to me that Ofsted data presents a very incomplete picture, with no clear identification of cause, just a statistical link.

The figures I quoted were not actually from Ofsted, they were compiled by a cluster group of LEAs in England. However, you're absolutely right - as with all data, it doesn't paint the whole picture, and without doubt a good percentage of the children who missed the age-expected benchmark were less able or SEN. It does give food for thought though, especially if you were to put it into the context of the Thai school system where there is a complete lack of acknowledgement and provision for less able/SEN children. Any child in a Thai school with any form of additional need would basically be condemed to a life of failure. Conjecture, I admit, but I would bet that UK figure of 19% would fall to virtually zero in a Thai school.

To a degree, Ofsted peformance data does include CATs type data - this is the value added figure they publish for schools, which in my opinion, is the best assessment of whether a school is any good.

[cooked]

This is a bit like the ever repeating thread topic about cost of living. Everybody is in a different situation , has different needs and aspirations.

Our bright 8 years old granddaughter goes to a private school in Buriram, involving a 100Km drive every day for me. There are a few things I don't like there but in comparison to a state school it is infinitely preferable. In parallel, we only speak English with her, she understands a lot of our conversations now after one year with us. I also try to find games for her that don't just involve colouring in drawings. On top of that she twirls a mean drum stick and I let her make bread last week (don't ask if it was eatable). So home schooling to some extent and we have another person in the family that takes interest in her schooling.

At the age of 11 and/or at the age of 15 or 16 we will ponder on whether we can integrate her into a year's schooling in the UK or Switzerland. She would of course have to restart her Thai education from the point where she left off.

By the way I try to avoid the English teacher in the village as I can't understand a thing he says, nor he me.

[Fellini]

Now, er... let me tell you what I think as an adolescent, David.

I have quite a few biracial younger cousins who are like me, but as far I can I see the Western-educated ones are just as stupid as the ones who go to school here. I don't think the school itself really matters greatly. I suppose it does matter if you send them to a really bad school, as it could become a disincentive to further learning in later life, but you can counter that by homeschooling them, or encouraging them to learn most of what they really need to know outside of school.

I've talked to Edinburgh and Cornell students in the past, and many of them are stupid arrogant ****s, so even Western schools don't teach people all that much.

[AYJAYDEE]

Now, er... let me tell you what I think as an adolescent, David.

I have quite a few biracial younger cousins who are like me, but as far I can I see the Western-educated ones are just as stupid as the ones who go to school here. I don't think the school itself really matters greatly. I suppose it does matter if you send them to a really bad school, as it could become a disincentive to further learning in later life, but you can counter that by homeschooling them, or encouraging them to learn most of what they really need to know outside of school.

I've talked to Edinburgh and Cornell students in the past, and many of them are stupid arrogant ****s, so even Western schools don't teach people all that much.

bingo

[khunpa]

Take a good look around you and you will find the answer :-)

[Chicken George]

It will be upto you as they say but remember if you do teach your kids in your home country they may not be able to come back here and live in the future. The reason I say this is because they will probably not be able to speak Thai. Its down to what you think thats good or bad thing for the future. My 10 year old speaks and reads and writes Thai as he should as he was schooled here. When he was 5 years of age we went back for a extended holiday 3 months. He went to school and was top in his class for English. His teacher there said that this was often the norm for children who are bi lingual. Iam not saying he is a highly intelligent child but his school does teach him. He also speaks and writes Chinese. In arabic as well. He does extra lessons for Chinese He is also taught Japanese. What Iam saying is children can do well here and will have the choice where to live and work in the future if they are taught here. Maybe not if day they go to school in say the UK. One big tip is only let them watch TV here in English. I too was worried about education here but you have to make the best of it.. Not everyone will agree but its working out well very well for my kids here. Listen to everyone and make your own informed choice.

Sent from my GT-I9082 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[IMA_FARANG]

Bad.

Personal opinion here:

The Thai school system was designed to produce exactly what the high-so elite in Thailand wanted then .... half educated drones that would make perfect low wage factory workers to maximize the owners profits and not ask too many questions why they should be low paid workers and not bosses.

It still is today, although the situation has changed and today Thailand needs original thinkers that can think outside-the-box not factory workers.

Unfortunately the Thai education system still has the same old ingrained attitudes it has had for at least 50 years or more.

Here ends the rant

------------------

Now you as a parent, can not rely on the school system here to educate your (we will assume intelligent) children.

If you want them to be able to think outside-the-box you will have to teach them that process.

Keep asking them that critical question .... WHY.

Teach them to question ..... why should it be that way?

How could it be done better?

Here in Thailand you can't rely on the schools to teach that. The system is set up to discourage such thinking.

If you want your children to think that way, you will need to be the one to teach them to ask questions that start with why.

Beware though, it won't make them popular here in Thailand.

[David48]

That 2 + 2 = 4 ... rather then why 2 + 2 = 4.

That's rather profound!

If you set the bar that high, I'm sure they will do pretty well in the future.

Actually that statement comes from my Uni days.

I did a Bachelor of Business.

We had two accounting subjects.

One was plain old Accounting ... double entry ledgers etc.

The other was Managerial Accounting ... which I hated with a passion.

When I was asked the difference between the two I used to say that 'Accounting' was 2 + 2 = 4 ... and 'Managerial Accounting' was why does 2 + 2 = 4. The expression has stayed with me.

.

[LucidLucifer]

Now, er... let me tell you what I think as an adolescent, David.

I have quite a few biracial younger cousins who are like me, but as far I can I see the Western-educated ones are just as stupid as the ones who go to school here. I don't think the school itself really matters greatly. I suppose it does matter if you send them to a really bad school, as it could become a disincentive to further learning in later life, but you can counter that by homeschooling them, or encouraging them to learn most of what they really need to know outside of school.

I've talked to Edinburgh and Cornell students in the past, and many of them are stupid arrogant ****s, so even Western schools don't teach people all that much.

Your statements couldn't be further from the truth. It's simple - bad schools do not give children the required knowledge and skills to maximise their potential, good schools enable children to fulfil and exceed expectations. The top few percent will likely always rise to the top, however bad their school may have been, but how much further could every child in a poor school have gone if they had benefited from quality teaching and learning from day one?

Your statement about Edinburgh and Cornell students also smacks of a complete lack of understanding of schools and education. Please, enlighten me how you are able to judge all the different facets of intelligence through a mere conversation. I would sincerely love to also have this skill.

[sandyf]

From a slightly detached viewpoint, to condemn the system overall is a bit much, it may well depend on where you live. My wife's niece came through the state school system and her education cannot be faulted. Her knowledge of the english language is far greater than mine, conversation was a weak point but her english teacher was a Philippino. A couple of years ago I tried to help her with the english homework but failed, not quite into that depth of english grammer.

In her last year we went to nearly a dozen universities to sit entrance exams, I think she was offered 5 places, varying from veterinary to chemical engineering. She really wanted clinical medicine so it was a difficult choice, stay in Thailand or look elsewhere. She tried China and got a place at Sun Yat Sen, she is at home now after the first year. Last week her first year results came through, all subjects in the nineties.

The state system cannot be all bad.

[ozsamurai]

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Surely what matters is where the children are going to spend their lives post-school.

It would be cruel to bring them up to be questioning and challenging when such an attitude isn't going to help them living in Thailand.

Conversely, you wouldn't want them hidebound by their education if they're going to live and work in the Occident.

That hits the nail on the head David48..... Its all about who you are going to be and who you want them to be. My kids are Aussies first.

Oz

[Fellini]

Surely what matters is where the children are going to spend their lives post-school.

It would be cruel to bring them up to be questioning and challenging when such an attitude isn't going to help them living in Thailand.

Conversely, you wouldn't want them hidebound by their education if they're going to live and work in the Occident.

Funny... for I always thought of that as a cross-cultural thing...

[onionluke]

That 2 + 2 = 4 ... rather then why 2 + 2 = 4.

That's rather profound!

If you set the bar that high, I'm sure they will do pretty well in the future.

Actually that statement comes from my Uni days.

I did a Bachelor of Business.

We had two accounting subjects.

One was plain old Accounting ... double entry ledgers etc.

The other was Managerial Accounting ... which I hated with a passion.

When I was asked the difference between the two I used to say that 'Accounting' was 2 + 2 = 4 ... and 'Managerial Accounting' was why does 2 + 2 = 4. The expression has stayed with me.

.

http://youtu.be/SJcshY5ywro

I'm a 2 + 2 = 4 man .

[evadgib]

Dual nationals in Govt schools could take advantage of the excellent education that's available via the military in their 2nd countries by signing up for a stint in their armed forces once they're old enough.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/

http://www.army.mod.uk/

http://www.raf.mod.uk/

(Non poms please delete & insert)

What was that about hating your kids?

[willyumiii]

David,

I have worked as a native English speaker in some "very good" Thai public schools. ( notice I did not claim to be a teacher )

It is the rote or "parrot" system of learning.

Students digest and regurgitate whatever the "teacher" feeds them.

Students asking any questions is considered an insult to the teacher and is just not done.

Students cheating or copying each other's work is tolerated, almost condoned. It's good to have something on paper even if it is false.

Students tell each other answers to questions openly and the teachers seem to condone it.

I was assigned Thai English teachers to assist me in the class room.

Thai English speakers could not speak proper English and would teach the students impropper pronnciation and sentenence structure, they would actually teach Tinglish, not English.

When I would ask the students questions, the Thai English "teacher" would give the students the answers before the students even had time to consider the questions!

It is a very poor system that discourages rather than teach critical thinking.

Some students could rattle off memorized English for a half hour...and not understand a single word they had repeated.

The International schools are expensive David, but the cost of a poor education is much higher in the long run.

[HeijoshinCool]

Hi David,

I was a language teacher here for twenty years so I am more than qualified to tell you how it is. The Thai education system suppresses any creativity and imagination from K1 onwards. The kids are programmed to be followers and are taught how to remember stuff in order to pass an exam. By the end of grade 6, you have a young person with almost zero imagination and no initiative. The kids sorely lack analytical skills and are unable to work together in groups to problem solve. International schools do not follow this concept by the way so if the funds can stretch then you will get a decent education for your kids. Seriously consider this before sending your kids to a Thai school.

Personally have two boys here, both at Uni now, I gave them the input they needed outside of school hours from day one and subsequently they are above average regarding thinking outside the box.

Rote learning is the norm here and I don't see anything on the horizon that will change it.

.

Excellent.

+1

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I think the OP is on about the state system and not private Schools here. They do not really educate that's the problem and they have far too many poor (jobs for life) teachers in them. Several are teachers and heads of Schools in our family, and from what I have seen and been told the state education system is more like the Thai indoctrination system. Kids are not taught to think, they are taught to accept all things Thai are beautiful, that's about it.

Jacky, thanks for raising that point, I forgot it from the OP.

So I am referring to the Thai Government Schools.

.

In a Thai government school week,

3 days learning to love the King, the flag and the Thai nation, 1 day sport and dance, 1 day lessons

They get 5 uniforms, 2 days normal school uniform, 1 day dance outfit, 1 day scouting (or guide or nurse) outfit, 1 day sports outfit.

Essentially, they do all learn to read and write Thai, but that's about it.

[losworld]

I'm having major problems with my son at a big international school in Chiang Mai. They failed him last year so when I got back here I tried to see why. Turns out he can't read or write properly yet. He is 13. All the school was interested in is that he must do his homework. I asked how he can do his homework if he can't read?

I get a phone call this morning. I cut his hair last night, short but apparently it's not short enough for them. I had to ask, I never get contacted by the school about the fact he can't read or how he is failing and what can we do about it, no. I get a call about his hair is 1mm too long. Hair police.

No one is interested in helping you help your child. I think he may be dyslexic but I'm no professional. What do I do? In the west the school would give you some help and direction about how to help a struggling child. Here, It's up to you to sort that out for yourself. No school will ever tell you your kid needs help for fear of loss of face for the parents.

If I had a kid in Thailand I would do everything in my power to train him outside of school to do something like fix computers or some type of skill. Even if the kid was a genius he could end up like Slingblade in the Thai school system lol. I have seen graduates of law schools who are totally incompetent. One major problem is the corruption as one can buy their way through school and not lean a thing. Another problem is the school leaders pocket all the money that should go to the kids - they'll be the ones pulling up to the school in the new Benz. I would love to see the army clean up the education corruption.

Ask yourself how Laos and Cambodia and Phillipines can kick Thais butt in education with a fraction of the resources? Because by the time the money gets to the kids here it has been spent.

[HeijoshinCool]

I think the OP is on about the state system and not private Schools here. They do not really educate that's the problem and they have far too many poor (jobs for life) teachers in them. Several are teachers and heads of Schools in our family, and from what I have seen and been told the state education system is more like the Thai indoctrination system. Kids are not taught to think, they are taught to accept all things Thai are beautiful, that's about it.

Jacky, thanks for raising that point, I forgot it from the OP.

So I am referring to the Thai Government Schools.

.

.

One good thing here is that, unlike in most of the States, parents can choose what public school they want to send the kids to. There's a government school about 40 k up the road from Rhek Thum. Everyone calls it the "Chinese School." But it is government. The wealthier parents here take their kids there everyday. The less wealthy shove them on a song taew.

I have no independent verification that the outcome of attending it will be any better, though people swear it's much, much better. It's still Thai, and as others have noted, by 6th grade the kids have been inculcated deeply into the culture of herding.

[kannot]

Could you not teach them yourself David at least for the first 3-4 years??

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Try to start a basic, really basic, conversation (about the food, the weather ...) with someone who graduated Bachelor with major in English, English Business Administration, ...

That will give you the answer.

Fair comment, and I'm sure you are not wrong.

But I'm sort of focused on their early learning needs ... they aren't even in Kindy (pre-school) yet!

.

Early learning is a crock, as long as they know the letters of the alphabet(s) and can read a bit, they are fine for high school.

Junior/infants schools in the west are more about play and socialisation.

[kannot]

my experience is that i could get by with what i learnt in class at first year. the rest of all those years are just pure waste.

'Getting by' is one thing - thriving and prospering is something completely different. I am sure the absolute majority of people don't want to see their children just 'get by,' they want to see them achieve, fulfill their potential and be the best they can.

From what i see in my local village id say they couldnt care less, the only important thing appears to be how pwetty they look in the uniform.

[user82374298374]

If you hate your kids educated them here .

Concur 100%.

Just look at all the incompetence, graft, corruption, and disorganization in Thailand - all the people responsible for it are products of the Thai educational system.

Do you really want your child to grow up to become the same way?

[MrJohnson]

I'll share our story and some observations.

Two daughters - now 10 and 13.

Commenced at a private, girls-only school at Aubaan 1 - age 3

moved to an international school 3 years ago.

Both kids are fluent AND literate in Thai - a primary reason to send them to the school

Both of my girls (and we parents) really struggled with the rigid nature of the school. It was all fluff and very little substance with the exception of the Thai language teaching which was solid, if completely joyless. The rigidity extended well beyond hair length, uniform, length, correct wai-ing, etc. the very black and white nature regarding creative arts like painting, creative writing etc. took much of the joy out of these activities. The girls were discouraged from expressing any of their own opinions and this took quite some time to 'undo' when they went to the international school. In fact the relationship with their teachers has been one of the most difficult to change. Fortunately I think we got them out just in time so that now they can at least interact with their teachers in a meaningful, mutually respectful and productive manner, rather than simply being compliant little 'soldiers' which was the case at the Thai school. In fact there is a pseudo-militaristic thread that runs through all Thai schools right from the flag raising, marching, chanting and other activities which are all part of the school day. It was all rote - reproductive learning and very little autonomous thinking and/or learning encouraged. As others have pointed out, this all fits in the broader cultural context that is Thailand. Don't rock the boat, argue, disagree or stand out from the crowd. There was another disturbing thing about the school and that was the gender stereotyping. I remember one day my eldest daughter who was around 8 years old coming home from school to find me cooking dinner. 'Dad, what are doing? Khun Kru said that it is the mother's job to do the cooking and that you should be relaxing after work' (My wife and I both work) There were numerous other examples of this but this was the one that really sticks out. Anyway, we moved the kids to an international school and have never been happier. All of us - we as parents and the kids. The new school is expensive. If I had not been able to afford that I am not sure I would still be here but that each individuals decision to make. I for one am glad that my kids are no longer in teh Thai system.

I might also add that I have been involved with a number of teacher-training programs in the Thai Government school system in Bangkok and beyond. I can say, without hesitation, that the system is broken. Badly broken. From the funding, administration, teaching, curriculum and assessment, it is broken and needs a major overhaul. Unfortunately it is a political hot potato and it will not change in a hurry.

Good luck coming to a solution that suits you

[Blindside]

In the main its pretty bad. I agree with many of the reasons put forward above.

One of my eternal memories;

A few years ago I taught at a government high school in Phuket, we were busy with exams and I was invigilating one of the M4 classes. At some point the tea and kanom arrived, I came to the door to accept mine and I see all the Thai teachers eating, drinking and talking in the corridor. I eat and drink in the doorway facing the class. A teacher comes and cajoles me to join them telling me not to be "so serious". (Cheating / copying = mai pen rai) - in fact I think it was expected.

You are going to have to be involved with your child's education. You will need to question everything that they learn. You will need to challenge them to think for themselves.

You will also be shocked at some of the stuff they learn. I have seen whole lessons on Thai fruit and on Kanom. Don;t get me started on the "History" that is taught.

One upside of many Thai schools is that many children are very polite and can be a real pleasure to work with. Especially in private Thai programs.

[garyinhuahin]

Probably exceptions to everything, but:

• Catholic schools are way better than state schools, and not terribly expensive.
• Private international schools range from pretty good to big ripoff. Investigate before you enroll.

I'm lucky enough to live near the Patravadi School in Hua Hin, know the director, and at present have sufficient means at hand. My newly-adopted 9-year old is getting started there after early training in the lower ranks of state boarding schools. He loves it so far and the teachers say he's bright. The school has an approach that in my experience is unique in Thailand and is likely to produce some real leaders for the country's future. It will be very interesting to watch my lad in the next few years.

I have him in a boarding program for now. It's costing about 300k per annum. Day school would be half that.

[mogo51]

My partner is a Philippine teacher in Thai Government School. The Administration is disgraceful starting from the Director (a poor term). The corruption in Education challenges the Police. Who suffers = Students.

Filipino teacher are looked down on, mainly because they are way smarter than the Thais. The who system needs revamping and some accountability, so there are less flash cars and more education equipment and proper wages for foreign teachers that reflect their qualifications.

[VINCENT2012]

Here's some data on the subject from the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), which tests 15-year-olds in many countries every few years. This test attempts to measure the ability of students to reason, not merely to repeat learned information. The math results for 2012 are below. Out of 65 countries tested, Shanghai is #1 (also in reading and science) the US is 36, lagging virtually all the rich countries, and Thailand is 50 worse than Romania, but better than Mexico. Results were similar for reading and science. Thailand is not a good place to educate children on the average.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA_2012_Tests

1 Shanghai, China 613

2 Singapore 573

3 Hong Kong, China 561

4 Taiwan 560

5 South Korea 554

6 Macau, China 538

7 Japan 536

8 Liechtenstein 535

9 Switzerland 531

10 Netherlands 523

11 Estonia 521

12 Finland 519

13= Canada 518

13= Poland 518

15 Belgium 515

16 Germany 514

17 Vietnam 511

18 Austria 506

19 Australia 504

20= Ireland 501

20= Slovenia 501

22= Denmark 500

22= New Zealand 500

24 Czech Republic 499

25 France 495

26 United Kingdom 494

27 Iceland 493

28 Latvia 491

29 Luxembourg 490

30 Norway 489

31 Portugal 487

32 Italy 485

33 Spain 484

34= Russia 482

34= Slovakia 482

36 United States 481

37 Lithuania 479

38 Sweden 478

39 Hungary 477

40 Croatia 471

41 Israel 466

42 Greece 453

43 Serbia 449

44 Turkey 448

45 Romania 445

46 Cyprus 440

47 Bulgaria 439

48 United Arab Emirates 434

49 Kazakhstan 432

50 Thailand 427

51 Chile 423

52 Malaysia 421

53 Mexico 413

54 Montenegro 410

55 Uruguay 409

56 Costa Rica 407

57 Albania 394

58 Brazil 391

59= Argentina 388

59= Tunisia 388

61 Jordan 386

62= Colombia 376

62= Qatar 376

64 Indonesia 375

65 Peru 368

happy to see that france is before english and americans and more....... ..............thailand with the 50 th place is has to expect rather at the end of the queue.

but you dont have to look at the kids to know how the education is here ...just look at the senior, talk to them and you will realize the nivel of knowledges and clue they have...it take only a few minutes