Jingthing Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Sure, talks can start when they stop shooting rockets and better yet agree to recognize Israel and disarm. Why should they disarm and not Israel? Let me check ... active war and they LOST. Of course Hamas acts like they won because they did win an international propaganda campaign but talking about arms here. If Israel caves on Hamas demands right away they are rewarding terrorism ... a bad lesson to all their enemies. Trust does not exist. Israel would be crazy to trust a power dedicated to doing a "RIver to the Sea" on them. Building trust is of course possible over many many years ... but it would take bold leadership on both sides for there to be any hope ... so face it folks, right now there is no such leadership so almost no hope. That's just realness. Yes I am blaming both sides. I always have, don't be shocked. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 You do understand what 'no preconditions' means, do you? You posts suggest not! If the British government had insisted on preconditions before talking to the IRA then innocent people in Northern Ireland and on the British mainland would still be dying and maimed today! You, obviously, refuse to see how the example of Northern Ireland can be applied to Gaza and how it can be made to work; but that's just your problem. But the Israeli government also fails to see the similarities and how a similar process can be used to bring peace; and that's the world's problem. The true meaning of the slogan 'From the river to the sea' has been discussed elsewhere; I see no point ion repeating that discussion here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Sorry, Gaza leadership has to take some steps first to reform their ideology about accepting the existence of Israel. No conditions is impossible. Their ideology is explicitly genocidal. That's not a place to start talking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) The IRA did not take any steps to reform their stance on the obliteration of Northern Ireland until AFTER the negotiations had started. If the British government had insisted on such a precondition then the IRA would not have agreed it; and the negotiations would not have been without preconditions and as a result have never begun. You can't have no preconditions and then insist on preconditions! I thought that was obvious to all; apparently I was wrong. Edited August 9, 2014 by 7by7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Different neighborhood, mate. Not the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Different, but very similar. The example of Northern Ireland has been used by many people in many media as a way forward in Gaza. The important part being that both sides should follow the example of entering into negotiations with no preconditions. That you have no argument to show otherwise does not change that. Edited August 9, 2014 by 7by7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Naive. Neither side is anywhere near that and there are good reasons for that ... on both sides. Also and this is important in that conflict there wasn't one side that was actually explicitly GENOCIDAL in rhetoric towards the other. People look at this conflict with liberal western eyes and they totally delude themselves. Dealing here with radical Jidahist Islam ... again, a cult of death. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 To use a Thai expression ... same but different. The situation with the Irish solution might be similar to the Gaza/Israel solution. Agreed ... they are not mirror images ... but their similarities outweigh their differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATF Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Different neighborhood, mate. Not the same situation. It's almost exactly the same situation. The Irish had the potato famine the Jews had the Holocaust. The Irish never really had their own country until recent times. Both countries have unwanted occupants - Northern Ireland. Israel and Ireland's wars are terrorist wars based on religion and race. The main difference is the British didn't bomb Dublin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Well, best of luck with optimism for a quick solution. I don't share it. Things have been set back now even more so. Both sides would need a radical change in leadership and what are the odds of that? In the short term, if Netanyahu makes a major cave and gives Hamas a win for a war they lost, he will be seen as rewarding terrorist tactics. Doesn't seem he could stay in power 5 minutes doing that. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATF Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well, best of luck with optimism for a quick solution. I don't share it. Things have been set back now even more so. Both sides would need a radical change in leadership and what are the odds of that? In the short term, if Netanyahu makes a major cave and gives Hamas a win for a war they lost, he will be seen as rewarding terrorist tactics. Doesn't seem he could stay in power 5 minutes doing that. I agree a lot of policies are politically motivated by the radical fundamentalist Jews baying for blood. It's not a question of rewarding terrorist tactics it's a case of saying enough is enough but good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well, best of luck with optimism for a quick solution. I don't share it. Things have been set back now even more so. Both sides would need a radical change in leadership and what are the odds of that? In the short term, if Netanyahu makes a major cave and gives Hamas a win for a war they lost, he will be seen as rewarding terrorist tactics. Doesn't seem he could stay in power 5 minutes doing that. I agree a lot of policies are politically motivated by the radical fundamentalist Jews baying for blood. It's not a question of rewarding terrorist tactics it's a case of saying enough is enough but good luck with that. Understood. There are forces to the right of Netanyahu that he needs to please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. I don't know the details but I reckon excellent chance same old Hamas tactics ... shielding arms and launchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Sorry, Gaza leadership has to take some steps first to reform their ideology about accepting the existence of Israel. No conditions is impossible. Their ideology is explicitly genocidal. That's not a place to start talking. As said to you in another thread; Hamas did take such steps; but these steps were ignored (rejected?) by Israel! According to Israeli news reports quoting Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas, as a condition of joining the PLO, Khaled Meshaal agreed to discontinue the "armed struggle" against Israel and accept Palestinian statehood within the 1967 borders, alongside Israel (source) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. I'm not defending Israel ... but I doubt that Israel would ever target a site that wasn't firing/storing rockets. It doesn't make sense because the weight of Public/World Opnion would condemn them for that. But I certainly agree with you that, by doing that ... they are 'poking at the bee hive'. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBR250 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Lets move forward, learn from the lessons of the past. Let Israel start a truce. Let them tell the world that they will not transgress the boarder with their their troops or their rockets. Let Israel with the military advantage show the courage to say ... ENOUGH ! Let the Palestines in the Gaza Strip see that Hamas is not the answer to their woes. Let the people realise that it is Hamas who the Israelis genuinely target. God pray that we have peace by Christmas, because I fear it may take this long. . I applaud your desire for a solution, but fear you are overly optimistic. I agree that the ball is in Israel's court as the biggest kid on the block to take the initiative. The problem is, Israel doesn't want peace. Well, that's not quite right - they want the peace that comes from having taken over the rest of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and subjugated any remaining "Arabs". And if Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's Foreign Minister, has his way, even those Arabs who are Israeli citizens “have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost.” He is an advocate of ethnic cleansing. Was convicted for bashing a 12 year old boy in 2004. Was a member of the (banned) political Kach party, which Israel and the US designated a "terrorist" group. He is under investigation for links to Russian mafia. Yet he is now Israel's Foreign Minister, and so would be the leader in the negotiations you suggest. Do you really see your desire for a "good will" approach being taken on board by this character? You will find that there are senior members of Hamas who could be Lieberman's twin. They have no interest in peace. Yet Israel has deliberately marginalised or imprisoned other potential Palestinian leaders who promote peace. Dr Mustafa Barghouti, a Palestinian MP and peace activist, was arbitrarily arrested by Israel, and had his knee cap smashed by a rifle butt during "questioning". Yet there is no bitterness - he still opposes the firing of rockets by Hamas. Netanyahu and previous Israeli leaders since Rabin have used the peace process as a smoke screen for stealing ever more land from Palestinians. Look up what Netanyahu, Lieberman and other Israeli leaders say and do. They do not want a two state solution (see eg http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.557637). Netanyahu keeps moving the peace goalposts: he is now insisting that Palestinians not only yield to Israeli control of major parts of the West Bank, including the entire Jordan Valley, and of all of the Palestinian state’s borders with the outside world, but that Palestinians also affirm the Zionist principle that Palestine is the historic national homeland of the Jewish people. (see above link) And there would be many experts on Middle East affairs, as well as numerous people on this site from both camps, who would disagree that "it is Hamas who the Israelis genuinely target". Some of the more irrational ultra-Zionists on here are quite clear that all ARABS are the target, not Hamas. You will recognise these posters very rapidly. You may choose what others do - ignore them altogether. They have nothing worthwhile to contribute. Many others - myself included - believe that Israel's war on Gaza is not only a war on Hamas - it is a part of the larger battle against the possibility of a future Palestine. So, good luck. I applaud your desire, but cannot see such a simple way forward. I believe that even BIGGER kids - the USA, EU, UN etc must make Israel cease its behaviour. Edited August 9, 2014 by CBR250 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. I don't know the details but I reckon excellent chance same old Hamas tactics ... shielding arms and launchers. Same old excuse. As said to you earlier; why don't the Israeli government take the moral high ground and say that while the rocket attacks my continue, they will hold to a ceasefire and stop the bombing? Why wont they say that they are willing to enter into negotiations with Hamas without any preconditions? They would then show themselves to be the ones looking for peace, and if Hamas did not agree then they would have a valid argument that Hamas doesn't want it! To much of the world, Israel's current stance and their massive military overreaction and indifference to and excuses for the deaths and injuries suffered by Palestinian civilians indicates that they want nothing less than the total obliteration of the Palestinians living in Gaza. If Israel really wants peace, let them hold out the olive branch. Edit, the above post, posted while I was typing this one, answers my questions! Edited August 9, 2014 by 7by7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Lets move forward, learn from the lessons of the past. I applaud your desire for a solution, but fear you are overly optimistic. I appreciate your considered reply ... And believe that the solution, for this conflict will come, most likely from pressure from the outside, because the political will, at the moment doesn't seem to exist from within the Israeli Government. What I don't understand from the Israeli side is that they have not tried to win the 'hearts and minds' of the ordinary Palestine and demonstrate that Hamas is not interested in the ordinary man's welfare but have a ideology aimed solely at destroying Israel and not trying to help solve the day to day worries of the 'average Palestine Person'. That said ... I never understand the dogma of a someone who is obsessed with a religion, be that Muslin, Jewish or other. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choctastic Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Do you want a prize that you have found one MP who says disgusting things? She is an MP, she is not the head of the Israeli government and there is no evidence her murderous views are Israeli government policy. Rubbish. The head of the Israeli government's wet dream is war with Iran. He is clearly a warmonger. The Israeli government know women and children will be slaughtered in these operations. They also fully understand what they are doing with the gradual and slow destruction of the people and everything they need, to subsist. Anyone who knows my posting history knows I have never favored far right wing Israeli politicians or the west bank settlement movement. Yet you are clearly acting as an apologist for them, only too happy to buy into the 'Hamas made me do it' excuse, from the School bully. Not the same thing as defending the right of Israel to defend itself from forces that don't accept it's right to exist on any borders. More talking point rubbish. Israel isn't going anywhere, it is too powerful and established. When will Israel state where its borders are? Has it finished ethnically-cleansing the land it covets yet? The fragmentation of the ME, as suggested decades ago, in the Yinon Plan, means Muslims are busily killing each other, assuring Israel's hegemony over the region. Gaza must be a thorn in the side. A persecuted people armed with mostly harmless rockets standing up to one of the world's most powerful military, who let's not forget was formed out of Zionist terrorists. Apparently not. The former head of the Australian Army has said Australia "needs to prepare for an increasingly savage, 100-year war against radical Islam"; by that he includes the rest of the Western world. More terror Boogah Boogah! Warmongering nations are creating the enemies they need, keeping spellbound populations cowed and begging for security, in true Orwellian style. 'The enemy are always at the gates'. Both Hamas and militant Islam are useful, in allowing the Military-Industrial-Complex, upon which the U.S. economy is so dependent, to feed. Saudi Arabia, with its radical Islam are provided with billions in weaponry and are best buddies with the U.S. Arm and train 100,000 Islamist 'terrorists' in Afghanistan, then use them and their spawn as a tool of destabilization. Seems like extremist Islam is only a threat when the radicals aren't on your own team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 ^^ * Sigh * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) As said to you earlier; why don't the Israeli government take the moral high ground and say that while the rocket attacks my continue, they will hold to a ceasefire and stop the bombing? What country on earth would call a ceasefire and allow the enemy to keep shooting thousands of rockets at them? That is just plain stupid. Edited August 9, 2014 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) That said ... I never understand the dogma of a someone who is obsessed with a religion, be that Muslin, Jewish or other. . I am so glad I am an Athiest, organised religions have caused so much bloodshed over human history.... all over a fairy tale man in the sky Edited August 9, 2014 by Soutpeel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 What other country targets such compact civilian areas? ANY country that has thousands of being rockets fired at them. No country on earth would allow it. But they're only being fired at military targets, using Hamas precision techniques! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 As said to you earlier; why don't the Israeli government take the moral high ground and say that while the rocket attacks my continue, they will hold to a ceasefire and stop the bombing? What country on earth would call a ceasefire and allow the enemy to keep shooting rockets at them? That is just plain stupid. Sometimes, a Nation, a bigger brother, takes a few bruises. Israel's defence shield will protect it. By doing so, Israel will regain the higher ground by showing that, while the Nation is strong, it can also show compassion. The World will notice ... Thus strengthen it's starting bargaining position. Compromise will end this War ... eventually. Maybe not by Christmas ... but eventually. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. I don't know the details but I reckon excellent chance same old Hamas tactics ... shielding arms and launchers. Ohh ! Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Lets move forward, learn from the lessons of the past. I applaud your desire for a solution, but fear you are overly optimistic. I appreciate your considered reply ... And believe that the solution, for this conflict will come, most likely from pressure from the outside, because the political will, at the moment doesn't seem to exist from within the Israeli Government. . Hate to say it but the only outside influence that can stop this merry-go-round of conflict is The United States of America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Steely Dan Posted August 9, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. You need a new Palestinian thesaurus. Mosque - Ammunition storage Hospital - Ammunition storage UN school - Ammunition storage Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBR250 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. You need a new Palestinian thesaurus.Mosque - Ammunition storage Hospital - Ammunition storage UN school - Ammunition storage Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand I think you mean "Israeli Thesaurus". And it also includes: Child's pockets - Ammunition storage Old man's scarf - ammunition storage Mother's shoes - Ammunition storage Ambulance worker's uniform - Ammunition storage 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Well done IDF. Now they are blowing up mosques. I think that is against the Geneva convention as well. Talk about poking at the bee hive. You need a new Palestinian thesaurus. Mosque - Ammunition storage Hospital - Ammunition storage UN school - Ammunition storage That's for sure! Rockets found in UNRWA school, for third time http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time/#ixzz39tsxoDhp Edited August 9, 2014 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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