Gaza school strike 'criminal' - UN

[Scott]

There have been a lot of off-topic posts. This thread has a relatively narrow focus. I would suggest for a more general discussion of the Israeli/Palestinian history and conflict that members post in the thread about the Marches:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744382-thousands-march-for-gaza-in-london-clashes-in-paris-over-israeli-onslaught/

That topic has a broader range for discussion.

[dexterm]

We could have had a peace agreement 14 years ago, which would bring untold wealth and prosperity to Israel and Palestine.

Indeed. Only Arafat rejected Barak's offer at the Camp David Summit and refused to make a counter-offer at all. You can't make peace when one side refuses to negotiate.

Muddying the waters again, UG.

Clinton asked for Arafat's map, he pulled out the 1967 borders for negotiation, Barak offered 97% of that including some land swaps. If only Clinton had stayed longer and got that up a few acres more (even bits of the Negev) to 100% it would have been a face saving for both done deal, with Barak keeping the major settlements and Arafat got a compromise over 67 borders

Nonsense. Arafat rejected the offer and did not propose a counter-offer of any kind. In fact, he REFUSED to offer one. Arafat refused the deal and refused to negotiate further - not Clinton and not Israel.

Nonsense yourself. Get your facts straight...Clinton wasn't even there, when it all fell apart. they had to send a search party out for Barak, as he was hiding in the grounds afraid to negotiate.

[Scott]

There have been a lot of off-topic posts. This thread has a relatively narrow focus. I would suggest for a more general discussion of the Israeli/Palestinian history and conflict that members post in the thread about the Marches:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744382-thousands-march-for-gaza-in-london-clashes-in-paris-over-israeli-onslaught/

That topic has a broader range for discussion.

Please see the above notice.

Posts deleted.

[rsokolowski]

It's Genocide. Israelis plan is to take Gaza. It's clear now. Though of course they will deny it.

This is the first time in human history that a population allegedly subject to genocide has a population that is increasing rather dramatically.

The Palestinian population has quintupled since Israel came into existence and has doubled since 1990, but Israel is being accused of genocide.

Yes, the population of Palestinians is increasing. And the tactic of demographic flooding (similar to what the Han Chinese have done in parts of China) will ensure that Israel faces increasing troubles far into the future. As Peter Grigorenko, a little known but influential political theorist once said: "It is the duty of every revolutionary to have 12 children". Demographics trumps history.

The deliberate failure by Israel to make peace when things were far easier back in the 1990s has created a more difficult situation to now resolve. Imagine if Rabin and Arafat had been encouraged to keep moving forward towards peace. Today Israel would be a far richer and happier state. Sure, they wouldn't own as much land, and a few extreme Zionists would be gnashing their teeth, but the vast majority of Israelis would raise their children without any sense of threat.

And it may be that the failure to build toward peace today by Israel will lead to even more difficulties in any future attempts. I suspect so, because of the generational hatred engendered by this latest assault on Gaza. Israel will "win" the war, but is by far the biggest loser if peace is an aim. (Well, it isn't an aim for Netanyahu, Lieberamn and many Israelis - stealing more land is the aim. But for others, peace is their dream).

As long as Israel exists in some form the Palestinians will not allow peace.

[Kalebiran]

It's Genocide. Israelis plan is to take Gaza. It's clear now. Though of course they will deny it.

This is the first time in human history that a population allegedly subject to genocide has a population that is increasing rather dramatically.

The Palestinian population has quintupled since Israel came into existence and has doubled since 1990, but Israel is being accused of genocide.

Yes, the population of Palestinians is increasing. And the tactic of demographic flooding (similar to what the Han Chinese have done in parts of China) will ensure that Israel faces increasing troubles far into the future. As Peter Grigorenko, a little known but influential political theorist once said: "It is the duty of every revolutionary to have 12 children". Demographics trumps history.

The deliberate failure by Israel to make peace when things were far easier back in the 1990s has created a more difficult situation to now resolve. Imagine if Rabin and Arafat had been encouraged to keep moving forward towards peace. Today Israel would be a far richer and happier state. Sure, they wouldn't own as much land, and a few extreme Zionists would be gnashing their teeth, but the vast majority of Israelis would raise their children without any sense of threat.

And it may be that the failure to build toward peace today by Israel will lead to even more difficulties in any future attempts. I suspect so, because of the generational hatred engendered by this latest assault on Gaza. Israel will "win" the war, but is by far the biggest loser if peace is an aim. (Well, it isn't an aim for Netanyahu, Lieberamn and many Israelis - stealing more land is the aim. But for others, peace is their dream).

As long as Israel exists in some form the Palestinians will not allow peace.

as long as Palestine is trying to get back land stolen by Israel. Israel will use violence to surpress the Palestinians . Of course taking on an opponent when you have a far superior military is easy. A more heavily armed one makes an aggressor think twice.It will happen sometime

[Ulysses G.]

It has been pointed out to you numerous times that Israel did not "steal" anything and that the Arabs had military superiority over Israel when they attacked them in 1948 and were robustly vanquished. The same thing happened several times afterwards, until Israel built up one of the best armies in the world and the Palestinians strictly turned to ineffectual terrorism instead.

[Seastallion]

It has been pointed out to you numerous times that Israel did not "steal" anything and that the Arabs had military superiority over Israel when they attacked them in 1948 and were robustly vanquished. The same thing happened several times afterwards, until Israel built up one of the best armies in the world and the Palestinians strictly turned to ineffectual terrorism instead.

Why are the Israeli borders always expanding? Because they steal the land.

[Ulysses G.]

Stop being disingenuous. The borders have decreased quite a bit since 1967, because Israel traded land for peace with Arabs who were willing to negotiate in good faith.

[Thorgal]

Stop being disingenuous. The borders have decreased quite a bit since 1967, because Israel traded land for peace with Arabs who were willing to negotiate in good faith.

The map from resolution 181 is still not what it should be...

Land taken and given back after yum kippur for peace is a nill operation.

[Ulysses G.]

Malarkey. It has kept the peace between Israel and Arab countries for many years. In the Middle East, that is a great SUCCESS. .

[David48]

Stop being disingenuous. The borders have decreased quite a bit since 1967, because Israel traded land for peace with Arabs who were willing to negotiate in good faith.

UG ... I like you.

I have a neutral position on this question.

But I have to call you on this Map.

The Source ... Elder of Ziyon, is an influential American^[1] pro-Israel blog.^[2] It is written anonymously.^[3]

The blog's name is an ironic reference to the anti-Semitic Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which makes the claim that Jews control the world. On his web page, "Elder" explains that the name of the blog "is meant to be ironic, of course. Now it makes it a little harder for me to be taken seriously by the media at large

Source

[Ulysses G.]

As long as the map is factual, what does it matter that it was originally on a pro-Israel blog? Of course they are going to produce all the facts they can to bolster their case. The problem is with posting FAKE QUOTES and dishonest information as some posters do continually, not accurate information like this.

[David48]

As long as the map is factual, what does it matter that it was originally on a pro-Israel blog? Of course they are going to produce all the facts they can to bolster their case. The problem is with posting dishonest information as some posters do continually, not accurate information like this.

Mate, I don't have a issue per se about the source of the Map.

I have an issue about the accuracy of the Map.

... and I agree ... there is much positioning on this thread that is emotionally (understandably) based and not having their origins in fact .. but rather on desire.

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[Ulysses G.]

Mate, I don't have a issue per se about the source of the Map.

I have an issue about the accuracy of the Map.

You indicated that you don't trust it, because it comes from "pro-Israel blog."

If the map is not accurate, you need to prove that. Just stating that you have "an issue about the accuracy of the map", without any evidence that it is inaccurate, is pointless. I would not post it, if I thought that it was not based on facts.

[David48]

Mate, I don't have a issue per se about the source of the Map.

I have an issue about the accuracy of the Map.

You indicated that you don't trust it, because it comes from "pro-Israel blog."

If the map is not accurate, you need to prove that. Just stating that you have "an issue about the accuracy of the map", without any evidence that it is inaccurate, is pointless. I would not post it, if I thought that it was not based on facts.

UG ... the onus of proof is not on the receiver, but with the Poster.

JT ... your likes add no credibility ...

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[David48]

UG ... seriously ... I have heaps of Maps which contradict what you suggest above.

But do we really want to do this?

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[dr_lucas]

Mate, I don't have a issue per se about the source of the Map.

I have an issue about the accuracy of the Map.

You indicated that you don't trust it, because it comes from "pro-Israel blog."

If the map is not accurate, you need to prove that. Just stating that you have "an issue about the accuracy of the map", without any evidence that it is inaccurate, is pointless. I would not post it, if I thought that it was not based on facts.

UG ... the onus of proof is not on the receiver, but with the Poster.

JT ... your likes add no credibility ...

You are of course correct, the liability to prove is with the poster.

Which part of it is inaccurate in your opinion?

[David48]

BTW ... just for the Record ... I'm a moderate ... I can walk a mile in both sides shoes.

I initially supported Israelis response to what happened to the missile issues there.

The indiscriminate shelling into Israel is 100% WRONG.

But, in public opinion, Israel's response, in the end probably went too far.

I wish the Israelis good feelings ... I hope they can move on after this War has finished.

They deserve respect ... but not domination.

My humble thoughts which will last as long as a snow flake in an Israeli Summer.

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[Steely Dan]

UG ... seriously ... I have heaps of Maps which contradict what you suggest above.

But do we really want to do this?

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David,

Finding a source of information about Israel that truly does not have a dog in this fight is extremely difficult, and I would include supposedly mainstream news sources in that. But aren't we getting blindsided? Sure there are issues regarding Israeli settlements on disputed land in the West Bank, but Israel unilaterally moved out of Gaza in 2005' it has not been occupied since then, but Hamas still persist in attacking Israel consistently. Would it not be a reasonable conclusion that in the case of Gaza, which Hamas controls, land is not the issue.

[Jingthing]

Obviously. Gaza land is in the hands of Hamas. This land was given back by Israel. FACT. If someone has a problem with a map, bloody explain what your issue is with it instead of playing silly time wasting games.

[David48]

Obviously. Gaza land is in the hands of Hamas. This land was given back by Israel. FACT.

Prove that FACT ...

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[David48]

Obviously. Gaza land is in the hands of Hamas. This land was given back by Israel. FACT. If someone has a problem with a map, bloody explain what your issue is with it instead of playing silly time wasting games.

Swearing is seriously not COOL ...

Passion, combined with fact, I can understand .. but swearing ...

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[dr_lucas]

Obviously. Gaza land is in the hands of Hamas. This land was given back by Israel. FACT.

Prove that FACT ...

What is there to prove? And what type of proof will satisfy you?

Also - you still didn't say what, in your opinion, is inaccurate in the map?

[David48]

Obviously. Gaza land is in the hands of Hamas. This land was given back by Israel. FACT.

Prove that FACT ...

What is there to prove? And what type of proof will satisfy you?

Also - you still didn't say what, in your opinion, is inaccurate in the map?

"proof will satisfy you?"

Proof that is documented by a 'neutral' and accurate source.

I'm not attacking Israel ... I desire a debate based on fact ... not on passion.

I have no issues with Israel ... I respect them and their Sovereign Nation.

But opinions and sentiments are flexible.

[Jingthing]

He wants proof Israel gave back Gaza. Oy very. That is basic. Just do wiki. Next.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dr_lucas]

And what is inaccurate in the map?

You suggested you have plenty of maps that you can show to contradict this map.

Please prove it, but only from documented, neutral and accurate source.

[Ulysses G.]

UG ... seriously ... I have heaps of Maps which contradict what you suggest above.

But do we really want to do this?

If something is not correct, prove it. Do not expect us to rely on your "gut feelings". We have been over and over these things on these threads. Go back and read them, if you have questions.

[David48]

He wants proof Israel gave back Gaza.

Are you talking to me?

If so Dude... please use the quote function.

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[Ulysses G.]

Obviously. Gaza land is in the hands of Hamas. This land was given back by Israel. FACT.

Prove that FACT ...

Again this has been covered in great depth on these threads and quite frankly, if you don't know that is a FACT you need to do a lot of studying on this issue, before challenging anyone else.

[David48]

UG ... seriously ... I have heaps of Maps which contradict what you suggest above.

But do we really want to do this?

If something is not correct, prove it. Do not expect us to rely on your "gut feelings". We have been over and over these things on these threads. Go back and read them, if you have questions.

UG ... it's not my opinion that counts in this debate .. but the World's opinion.

On that PR front ... Israel has lost this.

This is the bit I don't understand.

I'm a neutral ... my mind is open.

Attacking me is not going to win my heart.

Hearts and Minds will swing the balance for Israel.

MHO ... dismiss it if you wish.

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