The Overcrowded BTS

[bkkjames]

Two reasons.

1) Ordering additional rolling stock typically has about a 2-year lead time, so much planning must be done in advance... when will an operator actually "need" to add additional rolling stock based on passenger loads, desired load factor, revenue per passenger, etc.?

2) Following the foregoing, the BTS has not reached the point (yet) where it really needs to add carriages as they are apparently happy with the existing ridership / revenue mix.

Some riders may dislike existing "overcrowding," but you cannot run a profitable system with empty trains, hence no rush to add carriages. As both the BTS and MRT are run by publicly listed companies, strategic planning decisions will almost always have to take shareholders "welfare" into account. Folks should not confuse the fact that while the BTS and MRT are public transit, they are not a public good.

I think this sums it up pretty well. While its a bugger to catch a train at peak hour. During quieter times its still very pleasant, hardly crowded at all.

If I go to the station at 8:30am its a bit of a pain, sometimes waiting for 3 or 4 trains. But if I plan my day and get on at 9:30 its as different as night and day.

A 24 hour service wont happen anytime soon because there is no ridership to make it profitable. Like previously stated, this aint for the benefit of the public, this is for the benefit of the shareholder.

Pretty sure they could cut back on the number of trains from midnight to 6am....

[dagobert]

It's not just the number of trains, then you have staff costs, security, cleaners.

"not very efficient"

A wiser more cost efficient way in my view would be a secure bus system that could

service the areas instead of being on a fixed line?

[eeeya]

Two reasons.

1) Ordering additional rolling stock typically has about a 2-year lead time, so much planning must be done in advance... when will an operator actually "need" to add additional rolling stock based on passenger loads, desired load factor, revenue per passenger, etc.?

2) Following the foregoing, the BTS has not reached the point (yet) where it really needs to add carriages as they are apparently happy with the existing ridership / revenue mix.

Some riders may dislike existing "overcrowding," but you cannot run a profitable system with empty trains, hence no rush to add carriages. As both the BTS and MRT are run by publicly listed companies, strategic planning decisions will almost always have to take shareholders "welfare" into account. Folks should not confuse the fact that while the BTS and MRT are public transit, they are not a public good.

I think this sums it up pretty well. While its a bugger to catch a train at peak hour. During quieter times its still very pleasant, hardly crowded at all.

If I go to the station at 8:30am its a bit of a pain, sometimes waiting for 3 or 4 trains. But if I plan my day and get on at 9:30 its as different as night and day.

A 24 hour service wont happen anytime soon because there is no ridership to make it profitable. Like previously stated, this aint for the benefit of the public, this is for the benefit of the shareholder.

Pretty sure they could cut back on the number of trains from midnight to 6am....

I dont think that would be very efficient for a business trying to be profitable., a whole train running up and down the tracks with 1 or 2 passengers on it, still employing ticketing staff, security, maintenance staff ( who are probably performing maintenance during shutdown periods already).

or those one or 2 people could just use alternate transport eg. taxi which would be taking up less resources.

[Lakegeneve]

What is the 5 year plan for handling the congestion at the ticket entry / purchase areas? Ever try to get through Asoke or Siam at rush hour. With the new extensions underway....boggles the mind what it will be like.

At MBK the planning is walk past all the ticket machines to stand in line to get change and then walk back to ticket machines and then turn-around and walk back towards turnstyles.

I can hear it now "buy a pre paid card". Oh yes, forgot about that beauty where-in everybody is lining up to re-load their cards by credit card x5 the amount of time vs someone wanting change.

When will we have the good old octopussy card that can be used on either system (bts and mrt)?

Expect the much delayed common ticketing system by around the 3rd quarter of 2015. Testing should start in March 2015. The common ticketing platform will be for BTS, MRT, ARL and eventually buses and ferries. (Expressways too but I'm not concerned about that)

BSV Group (including BTSC) won the tender to roll out the system. Finally, after 7 years of promise to start ticket integration the stupid private concessionaire system in BKK with each operator using their own ticketing system will change. It's like BKK transport catching up to the 90s!

Prepaid does significantly reduce ticketing and entry lines. Also, as I previously mentioned there are plans to redesign or expand some stations in the future. It will probably be delayed and not be implemented within a timeframe to meet pax demand but it will eventually occur.

[eeeya]

I often wonder why so many people que up for tickets during peak hour times. Is there that many dis organised people out there who haven't got the forethought to buy a prepaid card.

Most of the times when you get to your destination the ticket desk is relatively empty so you can just swing back, buy or top up your card and then continue on.

[bkkjames]

I often wonder why so many people que up for tickets during peak hour times. Is there that many dis organised people out there who haven't got the forethought to buy a prepaid card.

Most of the times when you get to your destination the ticket desk is relatively empty so you can just swing back, buy or top up your card and then continue on.

its amazing how many people line up to top up their cards are peak hour times....

[dagobert]

Good one eeeya swing back for your ticket back, get the return ticket.

then continue on.

[eeeya]

Good one eeeya swing back for your ticket back, get the return ticket.

then continue on.

well actually i just monitor the credit on the swipe cards (MRT and BTS) and when it starts to get a bit low i keep an eye out for when the booth looks empty.

I use them every day and have never stood in a mega cue.

[David48]

Just for something a little different.

We live past the end of the line.

So, when we catch the BTS ... we are the first in.

Man ... those things are like IceBoxes when empty ... Summer or Winter!

Even I get goosebumps till we get some hot bodies into the carriage.

[Lakegeneve]

Better an ice box inside than snow outside....

For those that may be interested I have just posted a little update of what new lines & exts will be funded next - it includes a little BTSC update graphic, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/406991-the-new-skytrain/page-13#entry8271645

[Shenta]

Without proper under table incentive, why they should add more car? Welcome to Thailand.

[taony]

Bts promised six car trains six months after opening but never happened. Bunch of cheap bastards that don't know their ass from their elbow. I remember doing our Sasin termpaper on BTS in 2000. Got to go to interview the CEO or MD or whatever he called himself. Not only an idiot, but an a hole and treated his staff like slaves. There is no hope for BTS. And the whole system is a joke where different sections are run under different concessions and if you go to certain stations, the pass you bought for too much money doesn't even work without adding money to it. 2000 was back in the day when BTS even refused to put escalators anywhere. Even today there are some stations without them and most have only one. Forget about the piss poor design of the stations that only gets copied and pasted everywhere... jeez, I'm on my mobile or i could write a book.

[David48]

Bts promised six car trains six months after opening but never happened. Bunch of cheap bastards that don't know their ass from their elbow. I remember doing our Sasin termpaper on BTS in 2000. Got to go to interview the CEO or MD or whatever he called himself. Not only an idiot, but an a hole and treated his staff like slaves. There is no hope for BTS. And the whole system is a joke where different sections are run under different concessions and if you go to certain stations, the pass you bought for too much money doesn't even work without adding money to it. 2000 was back in the day when BTS even refused to put escalators anywhere. Even today there are some stations without them and most have only one. Forget about the piss poor design of the stations that only gets copied and pasted everywhere... jeez, I'm on my mobile or i could write a book.

I reckon the BTS is great !

Is it perfect ... No

But it works for me.

I can't wait for it to come closer to where I live.

[BKK Blues Brother]

Bts promised six car trains six months after opening but never happened. Bunch of cheap bastards that don't know their ass from their elbow. I remember doing our Sasin termpaper on BTS in 2000. Got to go to interview the CEO or MD or whatever he called himself. Not only an idiot, but an a hole and treated his staff like slaves. There is no hope for BTS. And the whole system is a joke where different sections are run under different concessions and if you go to certain stations, the pass you bought for too much money doesn't even work without adding money to it. 2000 was back in the day when BTS even refused to put escalators anywhere. Even today there are some stations without them and most have only one. Forget about the piss poor design of the stations that only gets copied and pasted everywhere... jeez, I'm on my mobile or i could write a book.

I reckon the BTS is great !

Is it perfect ... No

But it works for me.

I can't wait for it to come closer to where I live.

I don't think the BTS has any plans to extend Australia

[bkkjames]

In Singapore they have been testing a free early morning transit program - apparently with success.

Last week, Toronto mayoral candidate David Soknacki made a bold suggestion to improve the morning transit commute: offer free rides to anyone traveling before rush-hour. The idea is that by encouraging more early bird riders (in this case, those traveling between 6 and 7 a.m.), city subways and buses will be less crowded at the peak of the morning peak. Here's Soknacki, via the Toronto Star:

"Even if only a portion of those commuters do switch, it frees up capacity in rush hour when people can't or won't change their travel time."

An offer of free transit during a political campaign might seem too good to be true—the real-world equivalent of every middle-school student council candidate who's ever promised to get a soda machine for the cafeteria. But Soknacki's proposal, in keeping with his general approach to transit policy, is both reasonable and realistic. In fact, Singapore's transport authority has been running a similar pre-peak program for more than a year.

Singapore's program started in June 2013 for commuters using the MRT, the city's crowded subway system. Riders paid no fare if they exited at one of 16 heavily used MRT stations in the city core by 7:45 a.m. on weekdays. (Riders who exited at one of these stations between 7:45 and 8 a.m. got a slight discount—a little grace period before the true peak.) To facilitate the shift, MRT ran more off-peak trains and officials worked with large employers to promote flexible work schedules.

What Singapore wanted was what every subway commuter wants: just a little space to breathe on the rush-hour train, thank you. As of March 2013, when the MRT program was announced, about 36,000 people exited at one of the 16 core stations between 7 and 8 in the morning on weekdays, compared to 99,500 who got off at the same places between 8 and 9—a peak-off peak ratio of nearly 2.8 to 1. Ridership was nearly as high in the 15 minutes before 9 a.m. as it was in the whole hour before 8 ... http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2014/07/singapores-early-morning-free-transit-program-has-been-a-huge-success/374909/?sf29131558=1

[namdocmai]

@Lakegeneve

I'm not sure what a "normal place in the skytrain" is.....

Well i won't say a normal place is a seat but while standing i don't want to touch anybody around me and in peak hours that is not possible while hanging in the bts. It is impossible to jam even 1 more person in the train before they leave, i don't feel happy to be in an overfull train like that.

If this bts was not built by Siemens but by Thai then sure i wouldn't go in an overloaded skytrain but i have to admit the quality of the carriages is outstanding.

The only real serious problem we have with the skytrain is the parkinglot at Mochit which is always overfull.

I have never understood why they don't expand that parkinglot with some more floors.

[Lakegeneve]

@Lakegeneve

I'm not sure what a "normal place in the skytrain" is.....

Well i won't say a normal place is a seat but while standing i don't want to touch anybody around me and in peak hours that is not possible while hanging in the bts. It is impossible to jam even 1 more person in the train before they leave, i don't feel happy to be in an overfull train like that.

If this bts was not built by Siemens but by Thai then sure i wouldn't go in an overloaded skytrain but i have to admit the quality of the carriages is outstanding.

The only real serious problem we have with the skytrain is the parkinglot at Mochit which is always overfull.

I have never understood why they don't expand that parkinglot with some more floors.

Okay thank you for the clarification. I would actually suggest that it is very normal in the last 5 years in many western capitals at peak hour to experience the type of overcrowding on both metros and commuter trains that one experiences on the BTS here. That is not to justify the experience but to observe that in the whole pax rates have increased significantly around the world post the GFC (in some cases to record levels) but networks (lines) and capacity (ie. extra rolling stock and thus increased frequencies) have generally in the main lagged behind this growth because most transport planners did not foresee such growth. Or perhaps more accurately the decision makers (govts) didn't fund it ahead of time.

Bangkok is not that different from Paris, London, Melbourne nor NYC in this regard.

Mo Chit Depot park and ride

The Mo Chit parking lot (depot) was built on the former Mo Chit bus station (moved to its current site - which will be moved again in 3-4 years). The parking lot - and air rights of the depot - were always intended to be developed in some way with commercial and residential buildings built on top. A concession for this was granted nearly 20 years ago (1996).

Treasury has been pushing this process in recent years and it is much closer with an attempted deadline of the end of September to finalise the details of utilising this land. The most recent proposal calls for a mixed use commercial development with offices, a shopping center, cinema, hotel/serviced apartment and a convention center.

A new park and ride facility will also need to be built but note that the Mo Chit extension north includes 2 park and ride buildings. Arguably some of the demand to park at Mo Chit will be displaced to further north along the line at these two facilities. As well as the fact that some pax will no longer need to park once that extension opens - a station will be closer to their home so no need to drive.

Here is some background info on the development of the site

Development plans for the 63-rai old Mor Chit bus station must be completely redone, given the tremendous changes in Bangkok's transport plans and environment over the past 17 years, says Naris Chaiyasoot, director-general of the Treasury Department. The cabinet last week approved in principle plans to restart development of the public site located on Phahon Yothin Road.

In August 1996, the Treasury Department signed a 19.7-billion-baht concession contract with Sun Estate Co, later renamed Bangkok Terminal, to develop the property as a multi-use complex to serve as a main transport hub for the northern routes out of Bangkok. But the project collapsed amid allegations of corruption, economic turmoil following the 1997 crisis and legal questions over whether the project complied with terms of the 1992 Joint Public-Private Venture Act. The only work completed was a depot for the BTS skytrain, which was to serve as the foundation for a much larger commercial complex built on top.

However, the Central Administrative Court has ruled the concession contract between the Treasury Department and Bangkok Terminal remains in force. As a result, the department may either negotiate with the original concessionaire to restart operations or pay compensation to close the original contract and accept bids from new project developers. In any case, officials believe development plans should be redone from scratch, given the changes in the capital's mass transit systems over the past two decades. The original concession was awarded prior to the launch of the skytrain in 1999 or the MRT subway system in 2004.

The skytrain depot was funded by Bangkok Mass Transit System Plc, the BTS operator, with Bangkok Terminal to pay compensation later for the costs involved in the foundation work of the office complex. After Bangkok Terminal ceased work on the project, BTS filed suit with the court to seek repayment of its investment from the Treasury Department as the project owner, winning a judgement of 1 billion baht. Since the repayment has yet to be made, interest has accumulated at the rate of 100,000 baht for each day of the delay.

In essence, that limited parking that you are complaining about will not longer exist in a few years. However, other facilities will.

[bkkmick]

Talking about overcrowding reminds me of The Drain. Waterloo to Bank. What a way to start a working day.

[David48]

Have a look at this post ... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753730-care-about-your-city/

It's about the BTS Phaya Thai interchange with the Airport Rail Link.

What the member writes about is a major problem and absolutely stupid planning by the Thai Authorities.

The lack of a Down Escalator as you egress the Airport Rail Link.

Sadly, the member went about it the wrong way and the topic is locked ... but his content and highlighting of the problem is valid.

Any news update on this?

.

[taony]

Would like to read that thread as I live near there and yes, piss poor design. But that is par for the course. Add to that how they close off the transfer even before the trains stop running and it makes you want to scream.

The topic is no longer available unfortunately/

[Lakegeneve]

Have a look at this post ... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753730-care-about-your-city/

It's about the BTS Phaya Thai interchange with the Airport Rail Link.

What the member writes about is a major problem and absolutely stupid planning by the Thai Authorities.

The lack of a Down Escalator as you egress the Airport Rail Link.

Sadly, the member went about it the wrong way and the topic is locked ... but his content and highlighting of the problem is valid.

Any news update on this?

.

Extra escalators from platform to concourse have already been installed at Phaya Thai, Ratchaprarop and Ram stations. (Of course it took much longer than first announced)

The next batch of stations to get extra escalators are Hua Mark, Lat Krabang & Ban Thap Chang.

I've made the point many times in the Airport Line thread (where we have critiqued other design flaws), http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/369458-airport-rail-link-again-sorry/page-23, that when the BTS system first opened only around 40% of the current escalators were installed. Even at Siam station I can remember the BTSC installing extra escalators from platform to concourse level back in 2001/2.

Some MRT stations still do not have down escalators at some entrances nor from concourse to platform level. That is not to excuse a major oversight with the ARL stations but to acknowledge that the issue is across all the metro lines. Of course if we were to compare with other countries.....

[David48]

^^ LG, I'm a little confused by your answer above.

I'm referring to the lack of a down escalator at the terminal station of the Airport Rail Link, not the BTS.

Has it been built in the past 12 months?

Last time I used it, just stairs there.

[Lakegeneve]

^^ LG, I'm a little confused by your answer above.

I'm referring to the lack of a down escalator at the terminal station of the Airport Rail Link, not the BTS.

Has it been built in the past 12 months?

Last time I used it, just stairs there.

Yes I know, all of the stations listed are ARL stations. Yes in the past 18-24.

"Extra escalators from platform to concourse have already been installed at Phaya Thai, Ratchaprarop and Ram stations. (Of course it took much longer than first announced) "

That does mean that every single platform at every station now has down escalators as they are all being progressively installed.

The mention of the BTS was for comparison purposes.

[namdocmai]

One day i arrived with my big suitcase and took the bts to Phaya Thai and i thought to take a taxi from there. I had to carry the suitcase down myself (30 kg) and then see how i could stop a taxi on that busy road. Very dangerous and i will never use that airport link again. An airport link without escalator or place to take a taxi safely, what a huge mistake!

Because the parking at Mo chit is always overfull we don't go to the city very often. If the new skytrains are finished it will still take a lot of time to go to the city even when i live very close to the new built lines which are not running yet.

Now we have the ebola disease, in the plane to BKK i sat next to an african and i didn't feel comfortable with that. Imagine standing in an overfull skytrain while a group of africans come in, i think i would go out because i don't want to be near them now untill the ebola has been exterminated.

I know that many other big city's on the world also have overloaded trains but i guess soon that will be illegal/over because of diseases like ebola. Who wants to risk his life by travelling in a crowded train? Not me.

In Berlin Germany the new airport is allready to small before it is even finished. I hope that problem won't happen with the new skytrains in Bkk.

[teatree]

What is the 5 year plan for handling the congestion at the ticket entry / purchase areas? Ever try to get through Asoke or Siam at rush hour. With the new extensions underway....boggles the mind what it will be like.

At MBK the planning is walk past all the ticket machines to stand in line to get change and then walk back to ticket machines and then turn-around and walk back towards turnstyles.

I can hear it now "buy a pre paid card". Oh yes, forgot about that beauty where-in everybody is lining up to re-load their cards by credit card x5 the amount of time vs someone wanting change.

When will we have the good old octopussy card that can be used on either system (bts and mrt)?

The only thing (along perhaps with toilets) the ARL has over the BTS/MRT is the self service top up machines.

There is no reason why the BTS couldn't have them.

[teatree]

^^ LG, I'm a little confused by your answer above.

I'm referring to the lack of a down escalator at the terminal station of the Airport Rail Link, not the BTS.

Has it been built in the past 12 months?

Last time I used it, just stairs there.

There is no down escalator to from the concourse level to the connection with the BTS.

There is the world's smallest rail station lift which can amply fit at least two anorexic midgets and their luggage in it at one time.

[doctorproc156]

One day i arrived with my big suitcase and took the bts to Phaya Thai and i thought to take a taxi from there. I had to carry the suitcase down myself (30 kg) and then see how i could stop a taxi on that busy road. Very dangerous and i will never use that airport link again. An airport link without escalator or place to take a taxi safely, what a huge mistake!

Because the parking at Mo chit is always overfull we don't go to the city very often. If the new skytrains are finished it will still take a lot of time to go to the city even when i live very close to the new built lines which are not running yet.

Now we have the ebola disease, in the plane to BKK i sat next to an african and i didn't feel comfortable with that. Imagine standing in an overfull skytrain while a group of africans come in, i think i would go out because i don't want to be near them now untill the ebola has been exterminated.

I know that many other big city's on the world also have overloaded trains but i guess soon that will be illegal/over because of diseases like ebola. Who wants to risk his life by travelling in a crowded train? Not me.

In Berlin Germany the new airport is allready to small before it is even finished. I hope that problem won't happen with the new skytrains in Bkk.

Why didn't you just use the Elevator then if your bag was so heavy?

[mike324]

whats the fuss? its the same in every city around the world during rush hour. They do add additional trains during rush hour, especially on sukhumvit line.

[namdocmai]

One day i arrived with my big suitcase and took the bts to Phaya Thai and i thought to take a taxi from there. I had to carry the suitcase down myself (30 kg) and then see how i could stop a taxi on that busy road. Very dangerous and i will never use that airport link again. An airport link without escalator or place to take a taxi safely, what a huge mistake!

Because the parking at Mo chit is always overfull we don't go to the city very often. If the new skytrains are finished it will still take a lot of time to go to the city even when i live very close to the new built lines which are not running yet.

Now we have the ebola disease, in the plane to BKK i sat next to an african and i didn't feel comfortable with that. Imagine standing in an overfull skytrain while a group of africans come in, i think i would go out because i don't want to be near them now untill the ebola has been exterminated.

I know that many other big city's on the world also have overloaded trains but i guess soon that will be illegal/over because of diseases like ebola. Who wants to risk his life by travelling in a crowded train? Not me.

In Berlin Germany the new airport is allready to small before it is even finished. I hope that problem won't happen with the new skytrains in Bkk.

Why didn't you just use the Elevator then if your bag was so heavy?

I didn't see any elevator and since then i have never used that airportlink again.

[David48]

Why didn't you just use the Elevator then if your bag was so heavy?

I didn't see any elevator and since then i have never used that airportlink again.

There is the world's smallest rail station lift which can amply fit at least two anorexic midgets and their luggage in it at one time.