Retirement Visa - Combination of pension + money in bank account

[fashi]

Hello

I am asking this question on behalf of someone who doesnt know a lot about internet. She has a retirement visa for several years now that expires in about 3 months. Her pension is about 60,000 Baht which makes 720,000 annually, so she needs another 80,000 in the bank to reach the 800,000 annual requirement.

Now, she usually had the 80,000 in there a while before renewing, but last year they told her that the 80,000 to top it up had to stay inside the bank account for 3 months prior to application and apparently made her sign a letter that she needs to have it in there for the next renewal 3 months before. Ive never seen a rule like that for retirement visas when using the pension + bank account combination before but obviously you never know what rules they make up along the way.

Has anyone heard of something like this?

Shes not very rich but lives comfortably off her 60,000 pension so she doesnt want to put more money than she absolutely has to in the account locked up for 6 months. Another worry is the exchange rate. If she puts 80,000 in the account now for 3 months, by the time she renews the exchange rate might be worse (or better, but who knows) and she would require 100,000 or 110,000 in there for 3 months prior to reach a total of 800,000.

Thats why I am confused, too ...why would she need the amount to reach the combined 800,000 in there for 3 months prior if you dont even know what the exchange rate in 3 months will be like?

Edited August 19, 2014 by fashi

[NancyL]

Some immigration offices do not require "seasoning" of funds if using the "combo" method, others do require that funds be seasoned for three months -- that would be the requirement if your friend were using just the 800,000 baht bank account method. In the current climate, it's not surprising that your friend is being told that the funds need to be in the bank for three months.

It's a good idea to have more than enough in savings to cover any changes in exchange rate. The same could happen to your friend's pension, after all. Presumably, her pension isn't paid in Thai baht is it? The value of that will fluctuate also.

Your friend should set aside about 100,000 baht in a Thai bank account that is solely in her name and not touch it for the three months prior to her retirement visa extension. That should take care of her nicely.

Edited August 19, 2014 by NancyL

[ubonjoe]

The police order clause for extensions of stay (it is not a visa) based upon retirement only requires the money be in the bank on the date of application when using the combination option.

There are however a few odd offices that will want it to be there for 3 months.

[larsjohnsson]

She must have a bit more than 80k. Just to cover for exchange rates that changes all the time

[KhunBENQ]

From a practical standpoint:

why not pay the pension into the account all over the year and spend the expenses from the account (by ATM withdraw or the like).

If she lives comfortably on the 60000 Baht there should always be enough left above the limit near the 3 month time span.

Make it a lving account.

Requires some discipline and thourough check of the balance though.

There should be no problem to add balance to the account during the 3 months I guess?

Edited August 19, 2014 by KhunBENQ

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

FWIW, I was renewing my retirement extension at BKK CW Immigration today, and used the monthly income method with no problem.

However, for the first time, I also brought along a bank income letter that I obtained for a less than 800,000 baht amount because I wanted to make sure the format used by my Thai bank and the paperwork I brought for it was correctly done as far as Immigration was concerned. So really, I was just asking, would this kind of letter and bank passbook photocopy be acceptable for the future, if I ever wanted to use the combo approach?

And to my surprise, the female Immigration supervisor who gave the final signoff on my paperwork, when I asked the question and showed her my bank documents, seemed to be saying that she expected the bank passbook to show the amount of my partial deposit for a three month period prior to my application. The bank passbook I showed her today did not show a 3 month history.

After hearing that, I questioned her again, pointing out that I wasn't talking about doing the solo 800,000 bank deposit only method, but instead, I was asking about the combo method of bank deposit combined with monthly income. But she continued to talk about wanting to see even the partial bank deposit proven for at least 3 months prior to my application.

As noted above, that approach isn't apparently what the actual language of the Police Order for the combo method requires, nor is it the approach that members here have historically reported Bangkok Immigration using.

[david555]

The police order clause for extensions of stay (it is not a visa) based upon retirement only requires the money be in the bank on the date of application when using the combination option.

There are however a few odd offices that will want it to be there for 3 months.

And how whe are expected to know wich office or wich officer aply wich rules ..... any shop selling those wanted christal balls ?

Even when asking on beforehand (so 3 month's by example to be preparing ) much can change again in that timeframe ....

What about Jomtien 5 wich rule ?

Edited August 19, 2014 by david555

[curtklay]

This is indeed a confusing and frustrating situation. A crystal ball would be helpful. But in lieu of that, the first thing to do is ask your local immigration office if they follow the official policy, or make up their own policy. If they require the 3 month seasoning, add a couple thousand extra to the current "make up" amount to cover any future change in exchange rates. Then when you go for your renewal, be prepared to hear something entirely different. This is Thailand...expect the unexpected.

[david555]

This is indeed a confusing and frustrating situation. A crystal ball would be helpful. But in lieu of that, the first thing to do is ask your local immigration office if they follow the official policy, or make up their own policy. If they require the 3 month seasoning, add a couple thousand extra to the current "make up" amount to cover any future change in exchange rates. Then when you go for your renewal, be prepared to hear something entirely different. This is Thailand...expect the unexpected.

And another personal question , if you go for application do they stamp your non o multiple as "used " before you know if the extension is granted ?

As in my case i can still go for another visa run because my visa runs out only "use before 3 october 2014" , my present "allowed untill stamp " runs out on 5 october

, so latest 2 october i can strecht another 90 days out of it .But when stamped" used "by just making the application could cancel that last chance ....iff they insist on that " maybe "seasoning !!

I would like to go now in september 30 days before current stamp ends, so i could have a "reserve period" in case immigration could request "seasoning savings" in my combo application for 3 months (2 months i could manage now already , as this is my first application and from 18 september more than sufficient money is on bank , but not for 3 month's time that moment )

Even when complete following the law and rules Thailand can mess you up

[ubonjoe]

They don't cancel your visa ever. It remains valid because getting and extension has nothing to do with it.

You can apply for your extension up to 45 days early at Jomtien.

As far as I can recall Jomtien does not not require the money to be in the bank any longer than the date you apply for the extension.

[david555]

They don't cancel your visa ever. It remains valid because getting and extension has nothing to do with it.

You can apply for your extension up to 45 days early at Jomtien.

As far as I can recall Jomtien does not not require the money to be in the bank any longer than the date you apply for the extension.

Thanks Joe , that keeps my" spare option" alive..... in case more changes should be declared last minute august .

Edited August 20, 2014 by david555

[watutsi]

I have just returned from Chaengwattana today I went there to extend my Retirement Visa using the pension plus balance in the bank method. This would be about the 10th year i have done this so i was not expecting anything different. To cut a long story short they refused to extend my visa and i have 2 weeks to leave the country. Why ? because about 20000 baht of the balance in my bank account had not been there for three months. When i protested and said it had never been like this before i was told the new rule came in last August and it is up to me to know the rules.I'm still in shock but i had began to think it was my fault for not paying more attention to the way the Thais make it up as they go along ,but this thread seems to suggest that this" new rule" is news to a lot of people.I would really like to know if other people using the pension + balance method have been denied because money was not in bank for 3 months.If as immigration say the rule is a year old why isnt everybody already aware of it.I'm still so shocked i don't know if i'm coming or going , literally.

[ubonjoe]

It has to be a CW rule only because even the new police order still says it only has to be in the bank on the date of application.

There have been a couple of reports of people being told that next time it would have to be in the bank for 3 months.

[watutsi]

Is there a way to get a copy of this police order, and is there any method of appeal? as so much is down to what officials you come across on any given day.

[Jingthing]

At Jomtien, I have never read one report of a need for seasoning when using the combo method. Of course that could change tomorrow but I think people can be reasonably confident that remains the situation there at this time.

[prodriver]

I have just returned from Chaengwattana today I went there to extend my Retirement Visa using the pension plus balance in the bank method. This would be about the 10th year i have done this so i was not expecting anything different. To cut a long story short they refused to extend my visa and i have 2 weeks to leave the country. Why ? because about 20000 baht of the balance in my bank account had not been there for three months. When i protested and said it had never been like this before i was told the new rule came in last August and it is up to me to know the rules.I'm still in shock but i had began to think it was my fault for not paying more attention to the way the Thais make it up as they go along ,but this thread seems to suggest that this" new rule" is news to a lot of people.I would really like to know if other people using the pension + balance method have been denied because money was not in bank for 3 months.If as immigration say the rule is a year old why isnt everybody already aware of it.I'm still so shocked i don't know if i'm coming or going , literally.

If they say that the new rule came out last August and that it was up to you to know the rules, you would surely not have been out of order to request that they show you the new ruling.

After all, how can one keep abreast of any rule changes without them being readily available for your perusal?

[ubonjoe]

See Clause 2.22 is for retirement extensions. Appeal info is at beginning of police order.

Effective Aug. 29 Thai Police Order 327/2557

Existing Police order 777-2551 extension of stay rules EN - T&G.pdf

[slipperylobster]

60,000 is awfully close to the 65000 per month requirement. Too bad she could not invest her money and draw 5000 baht interest/dividends. That would make her monthly income 65000.

What about a notarized letter from her Embassy?

Edited August 20, 2014 by slipperylobster

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I have just returned from Chaengwattana today I went there to extend my Retirement Visa using the pension plus balance in the bank method. This would be about the 10th year i have done this so i was not expecting anything different. To cut a long story short they refused to extend my visa and i have 2 weeks to leave the country. Why ? because about 20000 baht of the balance in my bank account had not been there for three months. When i protested and said it had never been like this before i was told the new rule came in last August and it is up to me to know the rules.I'm still in shock but i had began to think it was my fault for not paying more attention to the way the Thais make it up as they go along ,but this thread seems to suggest that this" new rule" is news to a lot of people.I would really like to know if other people using the pension + balance method have been denied because money was not in bank for 3 months.If as immigration say the rule is a year old why isnt everybody already aware of it.I'm still so shocked i don't know if i'm coming or going , literally.

I'll just note, Watutsi's experience reported here is IDENTICAL to the verbal advice I received from an Immigation supervisor at Chaengwattana yesterday, as I posted earlier in this thread.

So clearly, something is going on there..... The old "no seasoning" policy may not be in effect any longer as regards to using the combo method.

Edited August 20, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ovenman]

It has to be a CW rule only because even the new police order still says it only has to be in the bank on the date of application.

There have been a couple of reports of people being told that next time it would have to be in the bank for 3 months.

It's going beyond absurd when the authorities do not follow the rules issued in Bangkok at an immigrations office in Bangkok.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It has to be a CW rule only because even the new police order still says it only has to be in the bank on the date of application.

There have been a couple of reports of people being told that next time it would have to be in the bank for 3 months.

Usually, it's the outlying Immigration offices that tend to make up their own local wild-hair rules that are at odds with the official published rules and policies -- not the main CW Immigration Office in Bangkok.

So if CW Immigration is now following a 3 month seasoning requirement for combo method bank deposits, you kind of have to wonder if the same thing hasn't been or won't be exported to the other Immigration Offices.

I believe the supervisor lady who gave me that surprising answer yesterday (not the initial officer but the next one who gives the final sign-off) was the one working at the C39 station in the extension of stays section.

[ovenman]

It has to be a CW rule only because even the new police order still says it only has to be in the bank on the date of application.

There have been a couple of reports of people being told that next time it would have to be in the bank for 3 months.

Usually, it's the outlying Immigration offices that tend to make up their own local wild-hair rules that are at odds with the official published rules and policies -- not the main CW Immigration Office in Bangkok.

So if CW Immigration is now following a 3 month seasoning requirement for combo method bank deposits, you kind of have to wonder if the same thing hasn't been or won't be exported to the other Immigration Offices.

...and if that's the case, why didn't they put this change into the new police order that comes into effect on the 29th?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

When i protested and said it had never been like this before i was told the new rule came in last August and it is up to me to know the rules.I'm still in shock but i had began to think it was my fault for not paying more attention to the way the Thais make it up as they go along ,but this thread seems to suggest that this" new rule" is news to a lot of people.I would really like to know if other people using the pension + balance method have been denied because money was not in bank for 3 months.If as immigration say the rule is a year old why isnt everybody already aware of it.I'm still so shocked i don't know if i'm coming or going , literally.

Prior to this thread, I don't recall hearing any news or member reports about BKK Immigration at CW beginning to require 3 month seasoning for combo method bank deposits.

If such a rule really had been adopted and enforced a year ago, it's inconceivable to me that we all wouldn't have heard much more about it before now.

In my thinking, it's either got to be some misunderstanding by one or a few Immigration officers at CW, or, some kind of very recently enforced policy change there.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

See Clause 2.22 is for retirement extensions. Appeal info is at beginning of police order.

Effective Aug. 29 Thai Police Order 327/2557

Existing Police order 777-2551 extension of stay rules EN - T&G.pdf

Joe, fyi, when I open the PDF file for the Aug 29 version police order that you linked above, the words are being cut off at the far right margin.

Also, the section on the so-called retirement extension combo method has the translated English version reading at the top of page 12:

"(5) Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totaling no less than

Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date."

I'm not sure the banks in Thailand are quite equipped to handle those kinds of deposits.... Perhaps the translator could take another look at their work in addition to fixing the document formatting so the right margin words aren't being lost.

[watutsi]

It has to be a CW rule only because even the new police order still says it only has to be in the bank on the date of application.

There have been a couple of reports of people being told that next time it would have to be in the bank for 3 months.

Usually, it's the outlying Immigration offices that tend to make up their own local wild-hair rules that are at odds with the official published rules and policies -- not the main CW Immigration Office in Bangkok.

So if CW Immigration is now following a 3 month seasoning requirement for combo method bank deposits, you kind of have to wonder if the same thing hasn't been or won't be exported to the other Immigration Offices.

I believe the supervisor lady who gave me that surprising answer yesterday (not the initial officer but the next one who gives the final sign-off) was the one working at the C39 station in the extension of stays section.

I already had my new visa in my passport and stamped , paid my money etc.It was the supervisor who signs off on everything who at the very last moment started giving me trouble.When i started explaining it had never been that way before she went and checked with 2 other ladies , they had a conversation of about 15 minutes before she returned to tell me that that was the rule , so there does feel like there is doubt about what they were doing but they are not about to admit it.Not certain if it is the same lady , but this one was young slim and reasonably attractive.

[ubonjoe]

See Clause 2.22 is for retirement extensions. Appeal info is at beginning of police order.

Effective Aug. 29 Thai Police Order 327/2557

Existing Police order 777-2551 extension of stay rules EN - T&G.pdf

Joe, fyi, when I open the PDF file for the Aug 29 version police order that you linked above, the words are being cut off at the far right margin.

Also, the section on the so-called retirement extension combo method has the translated English version reading at the top of page 12:

"(5) Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totaling no less than

Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date."

I'm not sure the banks in Thailand are quite equipped to handle those kinds of deposits.... Perhaps the translator could take another look at their work in addition to fixing the document formatting so the right margin words aren't being lost.

The fluids has been reported and I am waiting for a change. That is not the only clause where it is fluids instead of funds.

The margin problem is a problem with the conversion from a doc file to PDF. I will let somebody know about that, I had not noticed it because I have been using the doc version.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just got off the phone with a retirement section supervisor at BKK Immigration. She spoke some English, at least enough for me to pose the question to her, and for me to understand her answer.

Basically, the Retirement section supervisor at CW I just spoke with is claiming that there was some kind of new order dated Aug. 13, 2014 that she claims invokes a 3 month seasoning rule for combo method bank deposits, and she of course also claimed that the rule is effective for all Immigration Bureaus, not just Bangkok.

I told her I was reading the above linked Police Order, 327/2557. And when I pressed her as to what new order she was referring to, the only reference she could give me other than the Aug. 13 date was a #4499.

I'm pretty sure the Immigration supervisor I spoke with understood I wasn't asking about the straight 800,000 baht bank deposit approach, but instead, the combination method of bank deposit and monthly income. But given the language issues, I can't guarantee that. Except to note, there's nothing new about the 3 month seasoning rule for 800,000 baht bank deposits. So there wouldn't have been any change about that. Which makes me more inclined to think she was in fact talking about a change for the combo method.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

When i started explaining it had never been that way before she went and checked with 2 other ladies , they had a conversation of about 15 minutes before she returned to tell me that that was the rule , so there does feel like there is doubt about what they were doing but they are not about to admit it.Not certain if it is the same lady , but this one was young slim and reasonably attractive.

I think I saw and noticed that youngish supervisor during my visit yesterday. But the one who gave me the same guidance relating to combo method bank deposits was instead a pleasant, but middle-aged female supervisor... and I should have said correctly earlier.. at the L39 station in the extensions section.

So it's clearly not just a one-off mistake by a particular staff member operating under a mistaken impression. Note the report of my phone call to CW Immigration today, as posted above.

--------------------

I just don't get how and/or where the folks at Thai Immigration expect their customers are supposed to hear about their periodic rule and policy changes, when they occur. They rarely seem to actually announce them in English. Most of the time, what we do hear comes from ThaiVisa reports or individual member reports when people get caught by surprise, as is the case in this thread.

The Immigration website historically has been out-of-date. And AFAIK, there are no news releases or email updates offered by Immigration that anyone can subscribe to for news/information about Immigration rules/policies/changes, etc.

Apart from whatever else they do, surely Immigration deserves an F grade for communicating effectively with their customers.

Edited August 20, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[watutsi]

Just got off the phone with a retirement section supervisor at BKK Immigration. She spoke some English, at least enough for me to pose the question to her, and for me to understand her answer.

Basically, the Retirement section supervisor at CW I just spoke with is claiming that there was some kind of new order dated Aug. 13, 2014 that she claims invokes a 3 month seasoning rule for combo method bank deposits, and she of course also claimed that the rule is effective for all Immigration Bureaus, not just Bangkok.

I told her I was reading the above linked Police Order, 327/2557. And when I pressed her as to what new order she was referring to, the only reference she could give me other than the Aug. 13 date was a #4499.

I'm pretty sure the Immigration supervisor I spoke with understood I wasn't asking about the straight 800,000 baht bank deposit approach, but instead, the combination method of bank deposit and monthly income. But given the language issues, I can't guarantee that. Except to note, there's nothing new about the 3 month seasoning rule for 800,000 baht bank deposits. So there wouldn't have been any change about that. Which makes me more inclined to think she was in fact talking about a change for the combo method.

In retrospect i began to think that the supervisor meant to say to me August 13" last week" and not" last year", which is what she did say.Which now brings us to Thai logic if you are going to bring in a new order about seasoning for 3 months how in the hell can you start imposing it the following week, surely it needs some warning longer than 3 months.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

More vagary here... In my phone conversation with the Retirement section supervisor this afternoon, at one point, she seemed to start talking about the policy change having been made in the past, perhaps a year back, but then she seemed to start talking about that not having been enforced... until now this month that they began enforcing it.

I didn't press her on the history of the matter, given the language issues we were having in the conversation. I was more interested in trying to be clear that she understood my question, and hopefully her answer, was about combo method funds.... and not just the normal 3 month requirement for the bank deposits only method. At this point, I'm pretty clear that she was telling me there is now a 3 month seasoning rule in effect for combo method bank deposits.