Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[MrHammer]

You're missing the point. Why would a startup go look for a co-owner when they don't anything but a laptop and an internet connection. That is the realistic representation of the modern tech startup.

Why would you give 51% to some Thai, when you can go to Hong Kong or Singapore and own 100%?

[AYJAYDEE]

You're missing the point. Why would a startup go look for a co-owner when they don't anything but a laptop and an internet connection. That is the realistic representation of the modern tech startup.

Why would you give 51% to some Thai, when you can go to Hong Kong or Singapore and own 100%?

they shouldnt. they should go to hk or singapore!!

[Timwin]

they seem to think the ability to find their way around the digital world automatically makes them some kind of desirable person! lol

Are you seriously saying, a freelancer earning 10, even 20 times more than average Thai worker, is NOT contributing positively to Thailand's economy?! Jay-sus, some people are just bitter to the core.

[AYJAYDEE]

they seem to think the ability to find their way around the digital world automatically makes them some kind of desirable person! lol

Are you seriously saying, a freelancer earning 10, even 20 times more than average Thai worker, is NOT contributing positively to Thailand's economy?! Jay-sus, some people are just bitter to the core.

no

[timmyp]

None of us were really asking for permission to work on tourist visas...

I guess this is how the authorities are addressing the question of getting legal permission to work in Thailand as a digital nomad: "Oh, just work on a tourist visa."

I hope another visa option comes along. Japan has a freelancer option, so if you can prove you make about $3000 USD per month (showing bank statements, etc. and clients ensuring the work), then you can get a 1 year work visa. To renew, you have to prove the income again. I wish they would do that here. That's a decent salary for Thailand, and those people would be spending that money here.

[ukrules]

If you are classed as a resident for tax purposes you are usually required to pay tax on any income earned in or out of the country. There are usually a couple of tests, and one is residency or domicile. Most countries classify you as being a resident for tax purposes if you stay for 180 days or more. So if Thailand classifies you as a resident then you should pay tax on any monies earned and brought into Thailand. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that to be the law.

OB

People have attempted to pay it previously and they were laughed out of the office.

Getting a 'loan' is one of the oldest tricks in the book if you need some ready cash which isn't deemed income.

[Beetlejuice]

.

Yes, but remember, you won't be living here on tourist visa after tourist visa after tourist visa after visa exempt stamp ad nauseam. At some point you will be turned down.

I am sure the IO meant that a tourist can come and do his biz for the short time of his visit.

'nuff said

~

Yes, this is what I believe is the case also.

I think they mean anyone visiting Thailand on a holiday or for a short time as a tourist may continue their online businesses here only for a long as their tourist visa is valid.

[JLCrab]

Re: There is a reason Thailand is close to becoming a digital backwater, well if you can regard that it isn't already.

The Chairman of The Bank of Thailand, Dr. Prasarn Trairatvorakul has an MBA and PhD from Harvard Business School. If you contact his office c/o below, he may be delighted to hear your suggestions on how Thailand might avoid becoming or becoming worse of a digital backwater. You can always take a chance; the worst they can do is ignore you.

http://www.bot.or.th/English/Contactus/Pages/ContactUs.aspx

I'll consider taking you up on that.

And also thanks for a constructive response here on ThaiVisa that engages the issue. Not targeted at you, but it's a rarity.

I certainly don't have a PhD from Harvard but I have gone through 2 US focused startups, one that was seriously funded, as well as worked as a journo covering the industry previously so I'm not a spring duck when I talk about it.

OK. I only mentioned the Harvard part not to intimidate but to show this guy has wide exposure outside of any parochial Thailand views. Also that Harvard people in particular have a knack for realizing that useful information may come from unconventional sources. Good luck.

BTW I make these kind of contacts routinely where the most likely outcome is to be ignored but the few that do come through can make up for all the others.

[istinspring]

>Thats from the horses mouth, but in direct contradiction of every other immigration and labor office spokesperson or official statement.

No doubt it will soon be corrected in another statement saying that technically this kind of working is actually not allowed.

What they're really want to say is that this rule is not being enforced, and they are trying to rid the country of criminals and those working in jobs that Thai's could do.

If you're a digital nomad (or a millionaire playboy) it's interesting to know what the immigration and police departments deem worthy of enforcement.

The sanctimonious old codgers will continue to shout (where their ailing lungs allow) about their strict interpretation of the law and resentfully wish for the days of the 1900's when they were the only white man in town, and treated like the rare birds that they know themselves to be.

I do respectfully and humble; while doing so genuily, dare to ask an exact definition of a digital nomad?

Is it some random snipets of code who wander in the network, the so called 'angels' back in the 70' (term used in some Phd thesis at that time)?????

Or is a 'catch-all' word, used to easily define a group of human being unable to find a decent employment in their own country (too many candidates, so only the top best are selected) or in this country (too many candidates, even with top best out, so only the very best can compete)?

I do understand people such as Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckenberg or Bill Gates can, is they so choose, became digital nomads and earn billions a day working remotly; what I do not grasp is the same naming being used by Joe Smith, Mr Allcome, or a noboddy who barely get enought to buy a Chang in 7/11?

LAst, being an old codger myself (or about, I prefer to define myself as old french fart), I found both pathetic and humoristic kids trying to explain me what life is about (they certainly did not pee where I did, and will never do so) , while on the same time trying to explain me what my work is about (digital nomad is anathema to most the specialities they claim to master). There are works that can be done remote (Sun promoted it, I believe Apple did it also at one time); but there are others that are not possible, depending too much of the local conditions of the network (and that is starter , easy to understand by layman people; obviously there is more to say about it, but it will become too much tech blahblah for that place).

Dear sir, please, you're a bit outdated

In a recent study of U.S companies having more than 5000 employees, Brandman University surveyed 135 key managers about their use of virtual teams (http://www.brandman.edu/research/), finding that 40% of the companies already use them extensively and 56% expect their use to increase.

Instead of communicating face-to-face, these widely distributed teams are collaborating computer-to-computer...

I heard how SV millionaires told something like: "It's new reality caused by globalisation we have nothing to do with it. so should adopt and find the ways to use it",

[istinspring]

None of us were really asking for permission to work on tourist visas...

I guess this is how the authorities are addressing the question of getting legal permission to work in Thailand as a digital nomad: "Oh, just work on a tourist visa."

I hope another visa option comes along. Japan has a freelancer option, so if you can prove you make about $3000 USD per month (showing bank statements, etc. and clients ensuring the work), then you can get a 1 year work visa. To renew, you have to prove the income again. I wish they would do that here. That's a decent salary for Thailand, and those people would be spending that money here.

But i guess 3k$ is not too much for Japan...

[Soutpeel]

they seem to think the ability to find their way around the digital world automatically makes them some kind of desirable person! lol

Are you seriously saying, a freelancer earning 10, even 20 times more than average Thai worker, is NOT contributing positively to Thailand's economy?! Jay-sus, some people are just bitter to the core.

one assumes my dear little timmy, you have statisical data to prove your assertion that a so called "freelancer" (which BTW in the Thai context is a polite term for a whore) earns 10 to 20 times an average Thai worker ? or as always are just pulling various "statistics" out your bottom ?

[Soutpeel]

None of us were really asking for permission to work on tourist visas...

I guess this is how the authorities are addressing the question of getting legal permission to work in Thailand as a digital nomad: "Oh, just work on a tourist visa."

I hope another visa option comes along. Japan has a freelancer option, so if you can prove you make about $3000 USD per month (showing bank statements, etc. and clients ensuring the work), then you can get a 1 year work visa. To renew, you have to prove the income again. I wish they would do that here. That's a decent salary for Thailand, and those people would be spending that money here.

can you direct me to link which details this Japanese "freelance" option please ?

[Soutpeel]

None of us were really asking for permission to work on tourist visas...

I guess this is how the authorities are addressing the question of getting legal permission to work in Thailand as a digital nomad: "Oh, just work on a tourist visa."

Er no, if you had taken the time to read this thread, you would see a comment from someone who was actually at this meeting and the reporter in this link is quoting the question asked out of context, the question had nothing to do with "digital nomads" the question related to the legality of somone who is legtimately on holiday in Thailand checking work emails etc in their own countries etc... so you guessed wrong.

[Christie Paul]

Re: There is a reason Thailand is close to becoming a digital backwater, well if you can regard that it isn't already.

The Chairman of The Bank of Thailand, Dr. Prasarn Trairatvorakul has an MBA and PhD from Harvard Business School. If you contact his office c/o below, he may be delighted to hear your suggestions on how Thailand might avoid becoming or becoming worse of a digital backwater. You can always take a chance; the worst they can do is ignore you.

http://www.bot.or.th/English/Contactus/Pages/ContactUs.aspx

I'll consider taking you up on that.

And also thanks for a constructive response here on ThaiVisa that engages the issue. Not targeted at you, but it's a rarity.

I certainly don't have a PhD from Harvard but I have gone through 2 US focused startups, one that was seriously funded, as well as worked as a journo covering the industry previously so I'm not a spring duck when I talk about it.

OK. I only mentioned the Harvard part not to intimidate but to show this guy has wide exposure outside of any parochial Thailand views. Also that Harvard people in particular have a knack for realizing that useful information may come from unconventional sources. Good luck.

BTW I make these kind of contacts routinely where the most likely outcome is to be ignored but the few that do come through can make up for all the others.

Point taken and its not a bad one.

But it also should be noted that George Bush also went to Harvard - a man who can barely walk and talk at the same time.

And no disrespect to the Chairman, but as refined and charming as he no doubt is - his role is limited to the maintenance of the status quo. Whereby a handful of people quite literally own control everything. In this respect he's doing his part.

[JLCrab]

Re: There is a reason Thailand is close to becoming a digital backwater, well if you can regard that it isn't already.

The Chairman of The Bank of Thailand, Dr. Prasarn Trairatvorakul has an MBA and PhD from Harvard Business School. If you contact his office c/o below, he may be delighted to hear your suggestions on how Thailand might avoid becoming or becoming worse of a digital backwater. You can always take a chance; the worst they can do is ignore you.

http://www.bot.or.th/English/Contactus/Pages/ContactUs.aspx

I'll consider taking you up on that.

And also thanks for a constructive response here on ThaiVisa that engages the issue. Not targeted at you, but it's a rarity.

I certainly don't have a PhD from Harvard but I have gone through 2 US focused startups, one that was seriously funded, as well as worked as a journo covering the industry previously so I'm not a spring duck when I talk about it.

OK. I only mentioned the Harvard part not to intimidate but to show this guy has wide exposure outside of any parochial Thailand views. Also that Harvard people in particular have a knack for realizing that useful information may come from unconventional sources. Good luck.

BTW I make these kind of contacts routinely where the most likely outcome is to be ignored but the few that do come through can make up for all the others.

Point taken and its not a bad one.

But it also should be noted that George Bush also went to Harvard - a man who can barely walk and talk at the same time.

And no disrespect to the Chairman, but as refined and charming as he no doubt is - his role is limited to the maintenance of the status quo. Whereby a handful of people quite literally own control everything. In this respect he's doing his part.

So what? - maybe by doing something rather than posting on these esteemed ThaiVisa pages someone might nudge someone in the direction many on here want to go. There are also people at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs -- whose permanent secretary has a Master's from Johns Hopkins in international affairs -- who might be contacted.

About GWBush no comment.

[samran]

You're missing the point. Why would a startup go look for a co-owner when they don't anything but a laptop and an internet connection. That is the realistic representation of the modern tech startup.

Why would you give 51% to some Thai, when you can go to Hong Kong or Singapore and own 100%?

Not missing the point. They can own 100% and keep the majority of their assets and intellectual property there.

The 49% in Thailand only need be a service provider for the HK mother ship, enough to keep legal here in Thailand.

If these digital nomads were gods gift to the the poor little brown people of Thailand as so many here seem to make them out to be, a set up like this wouldn't be a second thought for them.

[impulse]

As you say at the end of your post "I'm pretty happy with what I'm making already", it's somehow assumed that because people choose to reside in Thailand that they should conduct business here. Everything I do is based and taxed outside of Thailand I simply spend a lot of time here because as most would agree it's a nice place to stay, from what I gather from people who do run businesses here it's not the easiest environment.

It seems to have caused much consternation on here that guys have asked for some sort of visa change which would entitle them to reside, pay tax and have some sort of legitimacy here. The fact is that as foreigners here whether running a business, on a retirement or any other kind of visa no matter how long you've been here or how fluent your Thai is as a foreigner we have little legitimacy and virtually no representation here. They run things as they want, I'm happy here but have no inclination to run a business.

I wish it were easy for everyone who would actually contribute to Thailand to hang out a shingle and work and live here if they wanted, (deporting those who prove to be a drain or just plain buttmunches).

But the rules are written differently. I didn't write them. I would have written them differently. But that's not going to happen.

We have 2 choices. We can gripe and moan about how unfair the rules are, wishing "they" would just see the light, or we can figure out how to get what we want in the world as it actually exists.

Anyone who complains about having to "give away 51%" of their business is just being lazy (or cheap), and dragging down and discouraging everyone who reads and believes them. You think Toyota or GE or Yamaha gave away 51% of their worldwide business to set up in Thailand? That alone should set some brains clicking- in line with Samran's post.

Wanna set up a perfectly legal business in Thailand, keep control yourself and live here legally? That's what legal consultants and accountants are for. (Web forums, not so much- though the advice here is free, it's worth just about what we pay for it). Is it easy? Depends a lot on your business, but probably not. Yet there are thousands of foreigners living their dream here in Thailand.

Wanna do it without spending any time, money and effort other than flying in, opening up a laptop and hooking into free wifi? Good luck with that. You'll be spending a lot of time griping about how unfair the world is.

BTW, this rant wasn't aimed at Chartist- but his was a handy post to respond to.

[mrtoad]

they seem to think the ability to find their way around the digital world automatically makes them some kind of desirable person! lol

Are you seriously saying, a freelancer earning 10, even 20 times more than average Thai worker, is NOT contributing positively to Thailand's economy?! Jay-sus, some people are just bitter to the core.

Got a visa yet?

[Timwin]

one assumes my dear little timmy, you have statisical data to prove your assertion that a so called "freelancer" (which BTW in the Thai context is a polite term for a whore) earns 10 to 20 times an average Thai worker ? or as always are just pulling various "statistics" out your bottom ?

http://www.simplyhired.com/salaries-k-freelance-jobs.html

The average salary for freelance jobs is $68,000.

That is about 176 000 Baht per month. Average Thai monthly salary is 13200 Baht. So about 13 times more on average.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/wages

So maybe you Mr. Soutpeel should stop now before making a total fool of yourself.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Timwin

[samran]

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

So shut down all tourism because they also do not pay tax for those "services". So what if i "pay tax" as you want mo to do and i get hit by a car. Does the service include medical expenses? Hell no!

Man get real. A farang working here online pays more tax in form of VAT than majority of Thais do in total in a lifetime.

Maaaaaan. What are you, like 12 dude?

Get a grip. You pay VAT. Bully for you.

You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

So duuude, I know your poo doesn't stink and all, but you are dodging the tax man otherwise. If you want tax free living, I hear Somalia is good this time of year.

So in your professional opinion, I mean you have actually written over 13.000 posts which make you believe that you are a pro in these issues, your you telling me that if I stay here over 183 days I have to tax my income twice because i walk on Thai streets. The cash the nomads put in the Thai economy is worth twice since its generated outside Thai economy. VAT is more than enough and the Thais should be happy about this.

Oh did you miss this? "A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand"

The "nomads" do not make their cash from sources in Thailand even if they stay here full time. Even a 12 year old can comprehend this.

If you bring that money into Thailand in the year it is earned, then yes, the potion you bring into Thailand is taxable. What is so hard to understand about that?

[Timwin]

one assumes my dear little timmy, you have statisical data to prove your assertion that a so called "freelancer" (which BTW in the Thai context is a polite term for a whore) earns 10 to 20 times an average Thai worker ? or as always are just pulling various "statistics" out your bottom ?

So freelancers are just a bunch of unclean whores? OK, who is your doctor? I am telling you, he is not helping you. Maybe you should try another one...

[metisdead]

A number of flame posts and replies have been removed.

[samran]

one assumes my dear little timmy, you have statisical data to prove your assertion that a so called "freelancer" (which BTW in the Thai context is a polite term for a whore) earns 10 to 20 times an average Thai worker ? or as always are just pulling various "statistics" out your bottom ?

http://www.simplyhired.com/salaries-k-freelance-jobs.html

The average salary for freelance jobs is $68,000.

That is about 176 000 Baht per month. Average Thai monthly salary is 13200 Baht. So about 13 times more on average.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/wages

So maybe you Mr. Soutpeel should stop now before making a total fool of yourself.

Of which he or she should be paying 20 to 30% income tax on. Or are you too good for that?

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Os noun. [oo hh ss]

A group of aged or bethrothed individuals who posses a deluded sense of self entitlement because of their current visa status.

Usage:

1. The Os hate young expatriates who get sex for free.
2. Most Os are too stupid to switch on a computer.
3. Most Os think that a line of code is something that a young druggie snorts at a party.

[Timwin]

Of which he or she should be paying 20 to 30% income tax on. Or are you too good for that?

In Europe you get social services, free or near-free healthcare and decent public education for your taxes. In Thailand you literally have to buy everything whether you have to pay taxes or not. Private school for kids, health insurances and savings for retirement. In Switzerland the average income tax is around 15 percent. Some countries do not even have income taxation.

[AYJAYDEE]

Of which he or she should be paying 20 to 30% income tax on. Or are you too good for that?

In Europe you get social services, free or near-free healthcare and decent public education for your taxes. In Thailand you literally have to buy everything whether you have to pay taxes or not. Private school for kids, health insurances and savings for retirement. In Switzerland the average income tax is around 15 percent. Some countries do not even have income taxation.

so you want the good thing about thailand without having to have the bad?

[Timwin]

so you want the good thing about thailand without having to have the bad?

How much taxes those retirement folks pay? Nothing to Thailand directly from their monthly pension. Quit the self-righteous bullshit already, it is really getting old.

[Guest]

Double post sorry, but I still think the 'government' and immigration system has shot itself in the foot, leg and goolies by not creating a new visa for farang who can make ample amounts of moolah on the internet legally, it is easily done in many different ways, and it takes away no jobs from the oh so precious Thai work force, and the money goes straight into the economy. Why have they not addressed this properly?

I would like to know how it is done easily and and in what ways, thanks in advance for any tips

[timmyp]

None of us were really asking for permission to work on tourist visas...

I guess this is how the authorities are addressing the question of getting legal permission to work in Thailand as a digital nomad: "Oh, just work on a tourist visa."

I hope another visa option comes along. Japan has a freelancer option, so if you can prove you make about $3000 USD per month (showing bank statements, etc. and clients ensuring the work), then you can get a 1 year work visa. To renew, you have to prove the income again. I wish they would do that here. That's a decent salary for Thailand, and those people would be spending that money here.

can you direct me to link which details this Japanese "freelance" option please ?

It has to be Japanese companies who are paying your income. If you get enough Japanese companies to show that you have an income of a certain amount (it seems to me it's 300,000 yen, which is about $3000 USD), then you can sponsor your own visa.

I have never done it, but plenty of people I know have. People call this "self-sponsorship", but there is no actual such category for a "self-sponsored" visa. You get the same visa for your profession (computer programmer visa, entertainer visa, teacher visa, or whatever the visa category), but when you apply for that visa, you submit copies of contracts from Japanese companies saying that they will be paying you a certain amount, and all of those contracts have to total at least $3000 (or whatever the minimum designated amount is).

If you hunt on Japan's immigration website, you will likely find it.

Unfortunately, the companies that you work for all have to be Japanese companies, and you have to be officially employed part-time at all of those companies (so it's not exactly freelance).

I'm not saying it's a perfect system Thailand should copy, I'm just saying it would be a nice option to have.

I work freelance via the net, but all of the companies I work for are outside Thailand, so it wouldn't really apply to me other "freelance nomads" working all online

[AYJAYDEE]

so you want the good thing about thailand without having to have the bad?

How much taxes those retirement folks pay? Nothing to Thailand directly from their monthly pension. Quit the self-righteous bullshit already, it is really getting old.

so that's a yes?? those retirees pay tax on their pensions in the country of origin and their country has a tax treaty with thailand. will you pay tax in your country of origin then?

Edited August 23, 2014 by AYJAYDEE