Does Britain have a jihadi problem?

[Steely Dan]

No one has denied there is a problem in the UK with fundamentalist Muslims.

No one has denied that a handful of mosques either promote this or allow others to use their premises to do so.

The problem lies not with 'fundamentalists' that's just a smoke screen, the problem lies with Islam itself, the Koran and the life of the Prophet, individual Muslims and groups however, you want to describe them are all the victims of it.

Do you understand how stupid your statements are, if the names of the religion are changed, no, I thought not!

The problem lies not with 'fundamentalists' that's just a smoke screen, the problem lies with Christianity itself, the Bible and the life of Jesus, individual Christians and groups however, you want to describe them are all the victims of it.

You are all getting to the crux of the problem, monotheism, the belief that there is but a single religious eschatology that is the correct view, and in order for that final judgement day to arrive all must be converted into believers. The only rational intellectual argument against Islam is to deny god, to look someone who cries "Allah akbar" and just laugh and say no, there is no god.

The only rational intellectual argument against Islam is to deny god, to look someone who cries "Allah akbar" and just laugh and say no, there is no god.

And if you do that in the UK to an Islamic radical, you can be killed.

I recently read that Allah Akbar actually means 'Our God is the greatest', not 'God is great', which is the commonly held assumption. Thus the shout of Allah Akbar is not just an affirmation of belief by Deists, but the battle cry of Deist supremacists.

[Ulysses G.]

The guardian article; read it and you will see that only very few mosques are involved.

According to an article I posted earlier in 2006 45% of UK Mosques had been infiltrated by the conservative (extreme) Diobandi sect, what with the UK contributing the second largest Western contingent fighting for IS I see the situation being worse rather than better. You can spin your tiny minority meme all you like, but you would have more joy gilding a dog turd - nobody believes you any more and few even pretend to.

7by7 continually pretends that articles and sources say things that they did not say - much like dexterm - and either ignores other members who point out these falsehoods or just keeps denying the obvious. That article did not say that "only very few mosques are involved." In fact, it suggested the opposite. The spinmeisters never rest.

[Steely Dan]

The guardian article; read it and you will see that only very few mosques are involved.

According to an article I posted earlier in 2006 45% of UK Mosques had been infiltrated by the conservative (extreme) Diobandi sect, what with the UK contributing the second largest Western contingent fighting for IS I see the situation being worse rather than better. You can spin your tiny minority meme all you like, but you would have more joy gilding a dog turd - nobody believes you any more and few even pretend to.

7by7 continually pretends that articles and sources say things that they did not say - much like dexterm - and either ignores other members who point out these falsehoods or just keeps denying the obvious. That article did not say that "only very few mosques are involved." In fact, it suggested the opposite. The spinmeisters never rest.

When the source can't be policed all that's left is to misrepresent the content. Indeed that the Guardian should run a story like this is a stunning commentary as to how bad things actually are.

[slipperylobster]

Judging from the news of the beheading of a British Citizen...I suppose a slight problem has existed for some time. I suggest the world community pay more attention to a very volatile situation. Americans have never been the "only target". We are a scapegoat and a distraction, excuse to implement a centuries old style of law/civilization. What is being conveyed is that these people will go to any lengths, and target any individuals from Britain, USA or anyplace else...if they are defied.

[hawker9000]

Yet another helpless innocent beheaded. From the UK this time. Will this "great Muslim majority" that so scorns the brutality and bestiality of the "extremists" among them be out in the streets, any streets, anywhere, tomorrow screaming their resentment and anger over this latest outrage? Will there be demonstrations by muslims demanding that these acts being committed in the name of their religion stop? Will muslims anywhere be standing up to these imams and other muslim cult leaders openly and loudly criticizing the hijacking of "their religion"? Will there be outspoken support by muslims for anti-ISIL military action? Will muslims be massing to offer their condolences and moral support to the family of this latest victim?

Of course not. But we're supposed to believe that all of the widespread violence, destruction and killing attributable to Islam are the acts of a pitiful, isolated, misguided, "very few" who are "outlier" crazies who have no widespread, grassroots, global support or sympathy.

We can get out heads out of the sand, or be buried in it (not necessarily in one piece...).

[slipperylobster]

Yet another helpless innocent beheaded. From the UK this time. Will this "great Muslim majority" that so scorns the brutality and bestiality of the "extremists" among them be out in the streets, any streets, anywhere, tomorrow screaming their resentment and anger over this latest outrage? Will there be demonstrations by muslims demanding that these acts being committed in the name of their religion stop? Will muslims anywhere be standing up to these imams and other muslim cult leaders openly and loudly criticizing the hijacking of "their religion"? Will there be outspoken support by muslims for anti-ISIL military action? Will muslims be massing to offer their condolences and moral support to the family of this latest victim?

Of course not. But we're supposed to believe that all of the widespread violence, destruction and killing attributable to Islam are the acts of a pitiful, isolated, misguided, "very few" who are "outlier" crazies who have no widespread, grassroots, global support or sympathy.

We can get out heads out of the sand, or be buried in it (not necessarily in one piece...).

Actions do seem louder than words. Even inaction can do the same. I expect to read only but a few, short comments that their communities do not endorse this type of "thing". Perhaps it is fear of retribution.

[Ulysses G.]

Will this "great Muslim majority" that so scorns the brutality and bestiality of the "extremists" among them be out in the streets, any streets, anywhere, tomorrow screaming their resentment and anger over this latest outrage? Will there be demonstrations by muslims demanding that these acts being committed in the name of their religion stop? Will muslims anywhere be standing up to these imams and other muslim cult leaders openly and loudly criticizing the hijacking of "their religion"?

NO.

[chiang mai]

No one has denied there is a problem in the UK with fundamentalist Muslims.

No one has denied that a handful of mosques either promote this or allow others to use their premises to do so.

The problem lies not with 'fundamentalists' that's just a smoke screen, the problem lies with Islam itself, the Koran and the life of the Prophet, individual Muslims and groups however, you want to describe them are all the victims of it.

Do you understand how stupid your statements are, if the names of the religion are changed, no, I thought not!

The problem lies not with 'fundamentalists' that's just a smoke screen, the problem lies with Christianity itself, the Bible and the life of Jesus, individual Christians and groups however, you want to describe them are all the victims of it.

PS: the last part of your sentence made no sense to me.

Sorry ol' chum but that don't make sense to me. Are you saying Christianity is the real problem...?

No I'm not. But if you look at the statement that was made it states that extremist individuals are not to blame, the entire religion is - the notion that so many hundreds of millions of people are the problem is ludicrously absurd and takes generalization to a whole new level. To see that in a different context, substitute Christianity for Islam in that sentence and see how illogical the concept is. Whilst we would all agree that there are bad and evil Christians it would inane to label all Christians the same way, it would mean that you and I are evil if we use that same standard of measure.

I can't decide however if the strenuous ant-Islam bigotry from one of two posters here is bloody mindedness, extreme Islamphobia, inbred hatred, fear or ignorance, or a combination of those elements, whatever the reason I find elements of their views distasteful from time to time..

[slipperylobster]

When pushed into a corner....as both "sides" are...there is little compromise available. Negotiations? Is there hope for that? It seems that there is a perceived idea that it is "do or die". How does one fight somebody who is willing to die for their cause...in fact..rewarded (in theory).

If there is something that can be reversed....some injustice done.... I would like to see that.

Constant news of beheadings, bombings, tribal hatred, Polarization of the Moslem vs the Western Communities... this is all wearing thin on the nerves.

Sombody hurry up and find a fresh, new planet and I am going to grab about 30 of the cutest looking Thai ladies, some eunuchs (for labor) and an unlimited supply of Leo beer. Load up the starcraft...and head out.

Just need some solar panels, 10 Terabytes of movies and music for my bar up there. Anybody who can follow gets a free beer and bar fine.

[jacky54]

No comment on the different lives and examples set to followers by Jesus and Mohamed then, what a surprise, just more finger pointing by people in a glass house. As far as I know the Catholic Church does not declare that gays should be killed, those leaving the faith killed, unbelievers killed, adulterers killed and does not support child marriage, genital mutilation and the teaching that while Catholics are the best of people all that do not believe are the worst of people, as it does in the Koran referring to Muslims.

As I have said before, I have a life and a family and so am not a pathetic nerdish geek who spends all his waking hours glued to this forum waiting to reply to your posts.

I have shown you what the catholic church has to say about gays; I have quoted passages from both Old and New Testaments.

I have pointed out to you that the crimes you list are not restricted to Muslims.

But none of that suits your or your mates' agenda, so you either ignore it or dismiss it as lies.

Comments by you and others here show that you and they believe all Muslims are out to behead you, rape your children, establish a worldwide caliphate etc., etc.

Fortunately, the vast majority of Muslims have no desire to do any of that, and the vast majority of non Muslims do not share your ignorant prejudices.

I pity you and your mates; living with so much irrational hate inside you.

How about replying to the comparisons on the lives and example to followers set by Jesus and Mohamad? You keep on and on mentioning the Church but actually show and come up with almost nothing and certainly nothing compared to the hate, division and calls to violence contained in the Koran. You cannot seem to accept the appalling life of the prophet and the jihadist instructions in the Koran. Pointing out that relatively few Muslims actually carry out the violent commands of Islam is not much comfort to the victims and the numbers willing to kill and die for their cause is not going down but up, so the rest of them are either doing nothing to stop it or not enough.

Accusing people here of 'hate' again, it's not about hate and a dislike of Islam is entirely rational.

Edited September 14, 2014 by jacky54

[chiang mai]

Bible vs Koran, "an eye for an eye" would be a good comparative starting point!

[Scott]

The thread is about Britain's possible jihad problem. It's not about the Bible or comparisons to the Koran.

As interesting as some of these discussions can be, they need to be done in the context of the topic.

[jacky54]

Seems even Britains hardest man has been threatened to have his head cut off by Muslims- in prison. Complaining about the noise they make the former Charles Bronson, the UK's most notorious prisoner was threatened, he was at one time a Muslim himself but had the good sense to denounce the religion, maybe another reason for the decapitation threat

Notorious criminal Charles Salvadore has been rowing with Islamic inmates who threatened to cut off his head in a clash over noise, his brother has claimed.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/charles-bronson-prison-row-muslim-inmates-threaten-cut-170207134.html#2UD5ngl

Edited September 14, 2014 by jacky54

[boomerangutang]

It's a little off-topic, but what % of those listed actually kill someone because of honor?

Don't know, but official figures claim currently around 12 honour killings p.a. in UK. nearly all within Muslim families, a small number by Hindus / Sikhs.

Stats about honor killings are about as reliable as stats about rapes. A family is as likely to report an honor killing ("excuse me constable, I'd like to report that my son stabbed his little sister repeatedly in the neck, at the dinner table last night.") as a young woman will report a life-staining rape.

The real numbers are certainly much more than reported.

[simple1]

It's a little off-topic, but what % of those listed actually kill someone because of honor?

Don't know, but official figures claim currently around 12 honour killings p.a. in UK. nearly all within Muslim families, a small number by Hindus / Sikhs.

Stats about honor killings are about as reliable as stats about rapes. A family is as likely to report an honor killing ("excuse me constable, I'd like to report that my son stabbed his little sister repeatedly in the neck, at the dinner table last night.") as a young woman will report a life-staining rape.

The real numbers are certainly much more than reported.

That's why I used italicised font for "official"

[Albertosez]

Here we go again - another beheading and we head ever closer to a " tit for tat " slaying on the streets. The bigger picture is getting bigger; Obama, Cameron and the Pope are now all contributing in public about ISIS......the high profiling of this situation is a double edged sword, but we are now fighting against an enemy that has only one intention and is not looking for a negotiated solution. So, there is no choice here, the enemies at war have to play this out to a " win / lose " conclusion, nothing else is on the table. Air Strikes are now ongoing and this is only just the starting point.

Returning to my previous " far- fetched " predication that England will face Civil War within the next 7 yearns; -I think it could be closer than I first thought ! I still have family there and I will do whatever I can to get them out. Final point - just putting myself in the shoes of a Moderate Muslim Man / Family living in England at the moment - I wouldn't be feeling comfortable at all - this is going to kick off, and, as usual, it will be the innocent ones that get caught up in the crossfire !

England once had a significant Racist element. Many of them have since been pacified / educated to give things a chance. Once the " Middle Class " get on their high horse and start fighting back we will see the previously " pacified element " return. The " tit for tat "exchanges on the street will make England a very dangerous place to be.

[Albertosez]

Camels and swords have their place in intimidating and terrifying local villages and settlements, but they are no match for Drones, F16s and Laser Guided Missiles.

[canuckamuck]

Here we go again - another beheading and we head ever closer to a " tit for tat " slaying on the streets. The bigger picture is getting bigger; Obama, Cameron and the Pope are now all contributing in public about ISIS......the high profiling of this situation is a double edged sword, but we are now fighting against an enemy that has only one intention and is not looking for a negotiated solution. So, there is no choice here, the enemies at war have to play this out to a " win / lose " conclusion, nothing else is on the table. Air Strikes are now ongoing and this is only just the starting point.

Returning to my previous " far- fetched " predication that England will face Civil War within the next 7 yearns; -I think it could be closer than I first thought ! I still have family there and I will do whatever I can to get them out. Final point - just putting myself in the shoes of a Moderate Muslim Man / Family living in England at the moment - I wouldn't be feeling comfortable at all - this is going to kick off, and, as usual, it will be the innocent ones that get caught up in the crossfire !

England once had a significant Racist element. Many of them have since been pacified / educated to give things a chance. Once the " Middle Class " get on their high horse and start fighting back we will see the previously " pacified element " return. The " tit for tat "exchanges on the street will make England a very dangerous place to be.

They have tats for tits now too, but Muslims don't like those either, not officially.

[jacky54]

I can't decide however if the strenuous ant-Islam bigotry from one of two posters here is bloody mindedness, extreme Islamphobia, inbred hatred, fear or ignorance, or a combination of those elements, whatever the reason I find elements of their views distasteful from time to time..

To be anti Islam is not 'bigotory' more like pro freedom and pro life. Labelling other views with meaningless insults like this along with racist and of course the good old 'Islamphobia' is not an argument but more like the bigotry you complain of. Anti Islam has nothing to do with hatred, that's the fuel of the Muslim 'extremists' As for ignorance the posters with anti islamic views certainly seem to know more about the religion and it's history than the apologists. When it comes to ignorance you might want to check the spellings of a couple of the labels you posted.

[chiang mai]

I can't decide however if the strenuous ant-Islam bigotry from one of two posters here is bloody mindedness, extreme Islamphobia, inbred hatred, fear or ignorance, or a combination of those elements, whatever the reason I find elements of their views distasteful from time to time..

To be anti Islam is not 'bigotory' more like pro freedom and pro life. Labelling other views with meaningless insults like this along with racist and of course the good old 'Islamphobia' is not an argument but more like the bigotry you complain of. Anti Islam has nothing to do with hatred, that's the fuel of the Muslim 'extremists' As for ignorance the posters with anti islamic views certainly seem to know more about the religion and it's history than the apologists. When it comes to ignorance you might want to check the spellings of a couple of the labels you posted.

A few points:

My quote taken out of context, in keeping with your history you have selectively quoted another poster.

There are no insults involved or intended, just factual observations.

Grammar and spelling police tactics are the last bastion of an indefensible argument and an incapable poster!

[jacky54]

There are no insults involved or intended, just factual observations.

I think people wrongly accused of hating, being a bigot, racist and so on DO find it insulting and that this name calling is the last bastion of people with no arguments and who find it difficult to carry on defending the indefensible. Islamophobic of course is not an insult at all as any sane minded person should be afraid of Islam. It is of thrown around like racist to stifle debate and is used like a thought crime control, - lets not say anything about girls being raped, or about radicals taking over Schools, they might accuse us of Islamophobia!

To not stray off topic i'm reading Islamic Jihad by M A Khan, a Muslim and a couple of quotes I found interesting on jihad:

‘…one must go on Jihad at least once a year… One may use a catapult against them when

they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire on

them and/or drown them.’

-- Imam al-Ghazzali, the second greatest scholar of Islam after Muhammad

‘In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of

the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by

persuasion or by force.’

-- Ibn Khaldun, The Muqaddimah

Edited September 14, 2014 by jacky54

[chiang mai]

There are no insults involved or intended, just factual observations.

I think people wrongly accused of hating, being a bigot, racist and so on DO find it insulting and that this name calling is the last bastion of people with no arguments and who find it difficult to carry on defending the indefensible. Islamophobic of course is not an insult at all as any sane minded person should be afraid of Islam. It is of thrown around like racist to stifle debate and is used like a thought crime control, - lets not say anything about girls being raped, or about radicals taking over Schools, they might accuse us of Islamophobia!

To not stray off topic i'm reading Islamic Jihad by M A Khan, a Muslim and a couple of quotes I found interesting on jihad:

‘…one must go on Jihad at least once a year… One may use a catapult against them when

they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire on

them and/or drown them.’

-- Imam al-Ghazzali, the second greatest scholar of Islam after Muhammad

‘In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of

the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by

persuasion or by force.’

-- Ibn Khaldun, The Muqaddimah

[Thorgal]

Seems even Britains hardest man has been threatened to have his head cut off by Muslims- in prison. Complaining about the noise they make the former Charles Bronson, the UK's most notorious prisoner was threatened, he was at one time a Muslim himself but had the good sense to denounce the religion, maybe another reason for the decapitation threat

Notorious criminal Charles Salvadore has been rowing with Islamic inmates who threatened to cut off his head in a clash over noise, his brother has claimed.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/charles-bronson-prison-row-muslim-inmates-threaten-cut-170207134.html#2UD5ngl

Your quote : ...maybe another reason for the decapitation threat...

Michael Gordon Petersen is known by the British press as the most violent prisoner in Britain.

He married in 2001 a muslima named Fatima Saira Rehman, in which he converted to Islam.

After 4 years, he divorced and stopped praying and practicing Islam.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Salvador

He didn't really start or stop practicing Islam because he feared a beheading...

OP is about a killing inside the society. Flaming Islam outside boundaries of the society with false arguments is not really wise...

Edited September 14, 2014 by Thorgal

[boomerangutang]

Here we go again - another beheading and we head ever closer to a " tit for tat " slaying on the streets. The bigger picture is getting bigger; Obama, Cameron and the Pope are now all contributing in public about ISIS......the high profiling of this situation is a double edged sword, but we are now fighting against an enemy that has only one intention and is not looking for a negotiated solution. So, there is no choice here, the enemies at war have to play this out to a " win / lose " conclusion, nothing else is on the table. Air Strikes are now ongoing and this is only just the starting point.

Returning to my previous " far- fetched " predication that England will face Civil War within the next 7 yearns; -I think it could be closer than I first thought ! I still have family there and I will do whatever I can to get them out. Final point - just putting myself in the shoes of a Moderate Muslim Man / Family living in England at the moment - I wouldn't be feeling comfortable at all - this is going to kick off, and, as usual, it will be the innocent ones that get caught up in the crossfire !

England once had a significant Racist element. Many of them have since been pacified / educated to give things a chance. Once the " Middle Class " get on their high horse and start fighting back we will see the previously " pacified element " return. The " tit for tat "exchanges on the street will make England a very dangerous place to be.

There won't be a civil war in England any more than there will be a civil war in Thailand. Reason: it's too easy for one side (usually the losing or outnumbered side) to slip in to the shadows and/or claim they're good guys. There will be flare-ups in the U.K., for sure, but no sustained war.

For a war, there needs to be defined adversaries on each side, with at least one side wearing uniforms or defining clothing - or there needs to be physical differentiation (blacks vs whites, for example). There are too many moderates in Britain for such stratification. Britain and other European countries are paying the price for decades of too-liberal policies of allowing hoards of outsiders to come and reside in their countries. The ratio (of newcomers to old-timers) will only get more lopsided as time goes by. No person and no policy can put the toothpaste back in the tube.

The best England can hope for is a decline in the % and/or shrillness of Muslim extremists, and hope that hot-heads of today will mellow with age. There is no way to kill the problem nor expel them back to their countries of origin. It's not like Saudi Arabia, which can keep out Jews and Churches. In Britain, even the most obvious miscreant gets a fair trial. In places like Brunei, S.Arabia, China or N.Korea, there are summary executions after a half hour show trial with no input from the defense.

[uptheos]

The OP asks, does Britain have a jihadi problem?

I'm not sure why the question needs to be asked, it's been evident for some time and getting worse.

Now, we even have people travelling abroad in numbers to commit violent 'jihad'.

They are scum and not wanted back home, they should never be allowed to return

IMO they should know before they go that there is absolutely no going back to civilised society

Lawyers would say you cannot render someone stateless, I say it's time to ignore these people.

Islamic State is a country right? (Well at least in their minds), so they wouldn't be stateless.

Let them be issued an Islamic State passport, whether it can be used or not isn't our concern.

I would go one step further with British jihadists who are definitely a danger whilst living in the UK.

Fly them into 'Islamic State', under the cover of darkness and just drop them off, now go and knock yourself out.

No ID, no passport, no money nothing! Well maybe a Koran.

Now go and join your buddies and have a very happy life under Shariah, don't send any postcards!

[jacky54]

An interesting site this, it gives 1609 as the first date of jihadist attack on English soil when Barbary pirate slavers occupied Lundy Island but moves on to say:

From a howling Jihad, we now have a stealthily creeping Jihad The Muslims of our times invaded Britain through the customs and immigration counters!

http://www.historyofjihad.org/britain.html

Edited September 14, 2014 by jacky54

[chiang mai]

An interesting site this, it gives 1609 as the first date of jihadist attack on English soil when Barbary pirate slavers occupied Lundy Island but moves on to say:

From a howling Jihad, we now have a stealthily creeping Jihad The Muslims of our times invaded Britain through the customs and immigration counters!

http://www.historyofjihad.org/britain.html

A fine authoritative and globally acknowledged reference site - my arse!

[jacky54]

An interesting site this, it gives 1609 as the first date of jihadist attack on English soil when Barbary pirate slavers occupied Lundy Island but moves on to say:

From a howling Jihad, we now have a stealthily creeping Jihad The Muslims of our times invaded Britain through the customs and immigration counters!

http://www.historyofjihad.org/britain.html

A fine authoritative and globally acknowledged reference site - my arse!

Lets try and keep your arse out of it shall we, what points on the site do you disagree with? After 7 minutes you have obviously read everything on it!

[simple1]

The OP asks, does Britain have a jihadi problem?

I'm not sure why the question needs to be asked, it's been evident for some time and getting worse.

Now, we even have people travelling abroad in numbers to commit violent 'jihad'.

They are scum and not wanted back home, they should never be allowed to return

IMO they should know before they go that there is absolutely no going back to civilised society

Lawyers would say you cannot render someone stateless, I say it's time to ignore these people.

Islamic State is a country right? (Well at least in their minds), so they wouldn't be stateless.

Let them be issued an Islamic State passport, whether it can be used or not isn't our concern.

I would go one step further with British jihadists who are definitely a danger whilst living in the UK.

Fly them into 'Islamic State', under the cover of darkness and just drop them off, now go and knock yourself out.

No ID, no passport, no money nothing! Well maybe a Koran.

Now go and join your buddies and have a very happy life under Shariah, don't send any postcards!

Fundamental flaw in your fantasy in that the UK Jihadists or from any other Western country would thus have the opportunity to carry out horrific crimes where they are located.

Perhaps a better approach would be to amend UK Law / unilaterally attach amendments to existing relevant international agreements, to enable the Courts to indefinitely detain the messengers of hate and those who support them. Expensive, but likely to be cheaper with less harm in the longer term.

[chiang mai]

An interesting site this, it gives 1609 as the first date of jihadist attack on English soil when Barbary pirate slavers occupied Lundy Island but moves on to say:

From a howling Jihad, we now have a stealthily creeping Jihad The Muslims of our times invaded Britain through the customs and immigration counters!

http://www.historyofjihad.org/britain.html

A fine authoritative and globally acknowledged reference site - my arse!

Lets try and keep your arse out of it shall we, what points on the site do you disagree with? After 7 minutes you have obviously read everything on it!

There is no need for anyone to read a web based article from an unknown source. For my part, I first look to see who wrote the article and what their credentials are, if it doesn't pass that test the article doesn't get read. Cretins and idiots who know basic English and web page construction are abundant.