Ukraine 'slipping out of control', Germany warns

[BATHIK]

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do.

Russian involvement is either there or it isn't, people can have their opinions about it but it won't change facts on the ground.

The way this involvement is described in the media makes it look like worthless propaganda. BBC spotted a tank, so what? It's a part of a rebel column, it follows rebels orders and depends on rebel supplies. What makes it "Russian army"? Nothing, just imagination.

Rebels admitted that they just got 1,200 people trained by Russians, that we can easily believe. We can believe that some Russian soldiers take "vacations" and go fight in Donbass, that still doesn't make it a "Russian army".

Russian army, if it gets involved, would bring with it the entire command structure and supply chain, and a lot of other forms of visible, undeniable support, like aviation and missile strikes. So far it hasn't happened.

Covertly, they can shell Ukrainian territory from across the border, provide intelligence, train troops and even have a few instructors on the ground assigned to rebel artillery units, for example, but they would still be acting under rebel command, separated from Mother Russia.

The west has the right to complain about this type of involvement and Russians will continue denying it, it's par for the course, there's nothing particularly outrageous about it, nothing the US wouldn't have done itself if situation was reversed. I bet right now the US is dying to have the opportunity to provide its own covert support to the same extent Russians do, their moral indignation is just for public consumption.

They say that without Russian support rebel army would collapse but Ukraine would collapse without material and especially political support from the US, too. EU would force it to the negotiating table in no time and there's only one outcome to this - Donbass will break away.

Everybody realizes now that Ukraine is in no position to solve this militarily, they have their asses handed to them and the winter is coming, talks will inevitably come first, so the shitstorm directed at Russia right now it just to weaken its position in future negotiations.

[dutchisaan]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it?

Russia is the largest producer of oil and gas, so what does Ukraine has to offer that Russia so badly needs?

Answer is NOTHING.

Ukraine heavily relies on Russian gas

If Russia was interested in Ukraine, they would have already occupied and nothing US or EU could do.

It is Ukrainian aim and determination to get Russia into war with the West.

Ukraine is the one making wild accusations and claims and then US all over sudden produces " unrecognizable" evidence.

Were you aware, the night before idiot Poroshenko made the claim Russian troops are in Ukraine, he had 4 hour meeting with Putin, which finished at 2am?

Name dates Poroshenko or his pro Nazi party members, had a meeting or negotiations with the so called rebels? NEVER!!!

Here is the reality, US sponsored and supported an illegal overthrow of democratically elected government.

US then installed its chosen people.

All this, just to piss off Russia.

If anything, Putin has been outsmarting US every step of the way, he is an excellent tactician.

Russia has been playing very cool, and level headed, but i am not sure if Putin will continue to do so for much longer.

Putin does hold the power to make US and EU lives hell.

Also, can you think of any legitimate reason why every single proposal for peace in Ukraine put forward by Russia at UN gets blocked by US?

Well it is clear that you spend your time on Russian media only. Fine with me, but please spare the other members of this form the propaganda that your here Putin spreads around.

I don't even want to respond on all your BS in your post, but let me be honest and ask you just one responce, sorry make that two.

Please give me a link that proofs that the US blocked any peace deal by Russia. And please be correct in your answer, was it only the US, or also other countries. Don't forget, EVERY proposel.

And please show some proof that the US has installed it's puppet regime in the Ukraine.

Buy the way, installing a puppet regime is a Russian invention.

I'm looking forward to your reply.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[konying]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it?

Russia is the largest producer of oil and gas, so what does Ukraine has to offer that Russia so badly needs?

Answer is NOTHING.

Ukraine heavily relies on Russian gas

If Russia was interested in Ukraine, they would have already occupied and nothing US or EU could do.

It is Ukrainian aim and determination to get Russia into war with the West.

Ukraine is the one making wild accusations and claims and then US all over sudden produces " unrecognizable" evidence.

Were you aware, the night before idiot Poroshenko made the claim Russian troops are in Ukraine, he had 4 hour meeting with Putin, which finished at 2am?

Name dates Poroshenko or his pro Nazi party members, had a meeting or negotiations with the so called rebels? NEVER!!!

Here is the reality, US sponsored and supported an illegal overthrow of democratically elected government.

US then installed its chosen people.

All this, just to piss off Russia.

If anything, Putin has been outsmarting US every step of the way, he is an excellent tactician.

Russia has been playing very cool, and level headed, but i am not sure if Putin will continue to do so for much longer.

Putin does hold the power to make US and EU lives hell.

Also, can you think of any legitimate reason why every single proposal for peace in Ukraine put forward by Russia at UN gets blocked by US?

Well it is clear that you spend your time on Russian media only. Fine with me, but please spare the other members of this form the propaganda that your here Putin spreads around.

I don't even want to respond on all your BS in your post, but let me be honest and ask you just one responce, sorry make that two.

Please give me a link that proofs that the US blocked any peace deal by Russia. And please be correct in your answer, was it only the US, or also other countries. Don't forget, EVERY proposel.

And please show some proof that the US has installed it's puppet regime in the Ukraine.

Buy the way, installing a puppet regime is a Russian invention.

I'm looking forward to your reply.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Its hilarious reading your post

It is so un informed that i do not even know where to start.

You want evidence US installed its puppets, you seriously that out of touch?

But since we are now demanding evidence, please post for me clear evidence of Russian army being in Ukraine. and i do not mean a blur with caption, but clear readable evidence?

Now i am waiting for your reply

[Asiantravel]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

" You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it? "

you cant be serious ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ukraine-a-rich-seam-for-gas-firms-despite-crisis-9220155.html

Edited August 31, 2014 by Asiantravel

[lovetotravel]

" You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it? "

you cant be serious ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ukraine-a-rich-seam-for-gas-firms-despite-crisis-9220155.html

They don't have the reserves of Saudi Arabia, but they definitely have energy resources. AND a are a major transit hub for Russia's resources. A great target for Russian "meddling".

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/russia-is-crushing-ukraines-hopes-for-energy-independence/360281/

Russia Is Crushing Ukraine's Hopes for Energy Independence

Eastern Ukraine is home to nine-tenths of the country's coal and one of Europe's largest shale-gas deposits. Will the region soon be Moscow's?

Energy politics and Ukrainian politics are often the same thing. Around 40 percent of the energy Ukraine consumes comes from natural gas, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Three-fifths of the 50 billion cubic meters of natural gas Ukraine uses each year is imported from Russia, with the rest domestically produced. This gives Russia a significant bargaining chip in its relations with Kiev—one that Moscow isn't afraid to use. Gazprom, a Russian energy conglomerate with close ties to the Kremlin, raised gas prices for Ukraine by 81 percent earlier this month, prompting Ukraine's interim prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, to accuse Russia of "economic aggression."

[lovetotravel]

Its hilarious reading your post

It is so un informed that i do not even know where to start.

You want evidence US installed its puppets, you seriously that out of touch?

But since we are now demanding evidence, please post for me clear evidence of Russian army being in Ukraine. and i do not mean a blur with caption, but clear readable evidence?

Now i am waiting for your reply

Great video. Since it was leaked by the Russian government, I guess it proves they are spying on American diplomats and others. And seem to be keenly interested in Ukraine politics? Can you imagine the outcry if the US government leaked a phone conversation of Russian diplomats talking like this? To think the Russian's don't is extremely naive. Neither country is innocent here. Admit the one you support isn't perfect either and we'll have a great basis for discussion.

Understanding both sides of the debate is an admirable trait.

[konying]

Its hilarious reading your post

It is so un informed that i do not even know where to start.

You want evidence US installed its puppets, you seriously that out of touch?

But since we are now demanding evidence, please post for me clear evidence of Russian army being in Ukraine. and i do not mean a blur with caption, but clear readable evidence?

Now i am waiting for your reply

Great video. Since it was leaked by the Russian government, I guess it proves they are spying on American diplomats and others. And seem to be keenly interested in Ukraine politics? Can you imagine the outcry if the US government leaked a phone conversation of Russian diplomats talking like this? To think the Russian's don't is extremely naive. Neither country is innocent here. Admit the one you support isn't perfect either and we'll have a great basis for discussion.

Understanding both sides of the debate is an admirable trait.

No relevance , but flash news , US spies on everybody, including it's own citizens and countries US considers friends .

Though that still does not change the fact that it was US who caused the problem and still is US who is making sure problem gets bigger.

[konying]

Lobetotravel,

Ukraine was nothing and is nothing, that's just a fact and how it's been for centuries.

Natural resources are nothing in comparison to neighbouring countries and minimal to Russia.

If it was of such importance, Russia would have stepped in months ago.

US also could not care less about Ukraine resources.

You see I have the pleasure of watching not only US propaganda but also Russian in both languages English and Russian .

I do not need to read someone else's opinion of what they think is happening , only because their opinion is just that an opinion.

Referring to it is silly, because someone else's opinion does not make it a fact.

So , because I can watch and read the 2, it gives me ability to analyse and see 2 sides of the story , truth is always somewhere in between.

Have you noticed how US media hardly shows civilian casualties ??? Why do you think that is?

There are over 2000 killed and close to 300 000 seeking refuge in Russia, again why no outrage from US?

Why no investigation into people being burned alive in Odessa ?

US was very loud when the plane was shot down and had all the evidence, so where is the evidence?

US did not see Russian troops in Ukraine? But after idiot poroshenko claimed there were, US instantly found blurry images??

Now, do I think Russia is supporting rebels ? Yes I do

Do I think Ukraine is trying everything and everything to make a war, yes I do .

How is this going to end ? I do not know. But if US keeps on pushing sleeping bear, it will wake up

[dutchisaan]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it?

Russia is the largest producer of oil and gas, so what does Ukraine has to offer that Russia so badly needs?

Answer is NOTHING.

Ukraine heavily relies on Russian gas

If Russia was interested in Ukraine, they would have already occupied and nothing US or EU could do.

It is Ukrainian aim and determination to get Russia into war with the West.

Ukraine is the one making wild accusations and claims and then US all over sudden produces " unrecognizable" evidence.

Were you aware, the night before idiot Poroshenko made the claim Russian troops are in Ukraine, he had 4 hour meeting with Putin, which finished at 2am?

Name dates Poroshenko or his pro Nazi party members, had a meeting or negotiations with the so called rebels? NEVER!!!

Here is the reality, US sponsored and supported an illegal overthrow of democratically elected government.

US then installed its chosen people.

All this, just to piss off Russia.

If anything, Putin has been outsmarting US every step of the way, he is an excellent tactician.

Russia has been playing very cool, and level headed, but i am not sure if Putin will continue to do so for much longer.

Putin does hold the power to make US and EU lives hell.

Also, can you think of any legitimate reason why every single proposal for peace in Ukraine put forward by Russia at UN gets blocked by US?

Well it is clear that you spend your time on Russian media only. Fine with me, but please spare the other members of this form the propaganda that your here Putin spreads around.

I don't even want to respond on all your BS in your post, but let me be honest and ask you just one responce, sorry make that two.

Please give me a link that proofs that the US blocked any peace deal by Russia. And please be correct in your answer, was it only the US, or also other countries. Don't forget, EVERY proposel.

And please show some proof that the US has installed it's puppet regime in the Ukraine.

Buy the way, installing a puppet regime is a Russian invention.

I'm looking forward to your reply.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Its hilarious reading your post

It is so un informed that i do not even know where to start.

You want evidence US installed its puppets, you seriously that out of touch?

But since we are now demanding evidence, please post for me clear evidence of Russian army being in Ukraine. and i do not mean a blur with caption, but clear readable evidence?

Now i am waiting for your reply

Man, I realy had this dream to get a normal answer!

Just answer the questions asked, and please, do it honest. Everybody can see the Russian propaganda.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Publicus]

Germany has been speaking with Russia on daily basis .

Germany is the only one with level head.

Germany is in no denial on who runs Ukraine and what to expect .

Russia's support for the rebels is no different than US support for the rebels in Syria or even Iraq .

Even accepting US propaganda that Russia sent troops in Ukraine , it is again no different to US bombing in Iraq .

All the reports about Chancellor Angela Merkel are that she quit on Putin when he accused Ukraine of shooting down the Malaysian airliner. "Delusional" is Merkel's word that came out of a recent phone call Merkel and Prez Obama had about Putin.

Putin in case some have failed to notice has no allies in this tsarist adventure into Ukraine to include Crimea. The Boyz in Beijing are wondering what's going on in the Kremlin among the power brokers and why Putin is careening around like Mao Zee Tung used to.

It looks now that the 26 nation Nato alliance wants Putin out because it's clear to all of 'em that Putin has lost it and is threatening the security and stability of Europe and Eurasia.

This is the year 2014 but it's beginning to remind Europeans too much of 1914..

[lovetotravel]

This just in. Another (reliable) source saying Russia is inside Ukraine. Hard to argue this any other way, though some still try.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/28/6079967/nato-satellite-images-show-russian-forces-in-ukraine

NATO is releasing satellite imagery today that it says depicts Russian troops engaging in military operations within Ukraine. Russia has slowly been encroaching on Ukraine since earlier this year, and its actions are increasingly beginning to look like an invasion — even if no one is willing to say it. "Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine," brigadier general Nico Tak, of NATO's crisis center, says in a statement."The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory."

Tak says that NATO has seen Russia giving large quantities of "advanced weapons," such as tanks and air defense systems, to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine, and he calls the situation "increasingly grave." NATO believes that the images show that Russia is attempting to destabilize Ukraine by supplying the separatists and extending the length of the conflict they've been in. Obama, too, agrees that these images show that Russia is behind the violence. "The new images of soldiers inside Ukraine make that plain," he said at a press conference this afternoon.

And as I reported earlier, even Russian media are saying their troops are inside Ukraine:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/08/ukraine-rebels-say-russia-troops-among-forces-201482882338716351.html

A pro-Russia rebel leader has said serving Russian soldiers, on leave from their posts, are fighting Ukrainian troops alongside the country's separatists in eastern Ukraine, the website of a Russian state television channel has reported.

"Among us are fighting serving soldiers, who would rather take their vacation not on a beach but with us, among brothers, who are fighting for their freedom," said Zakharchenko in an interview posted on Thursday on Vesti.ru.

[lovetotravel]

And let's look at the rebel's leader:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

Igor Vsevolodovich Girkin (Russian: Игорь Всеволодович Гиркин, Ukrainian: Ігор Всеволодович Гіркін Ihor Vsevolodovich Hirkin), also known as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov(Russian: Игорь Иванович Стрелков), born on 17 December 1970,^%5B1%5D is a Russian citizen from Moscow^%5B2%5D who is a key figure behind the War in Donbass as the military commander of the Donetsk People's Republic rebellion.^{%5B3%5D%5B4%5D} Strelkov, a Russian nationalist and veteran of several other conflicts, was charged by Ukraine authorities with terrorism^%5B5%5D and is currently sanctioned by the European Union for his leading role in the insurgency in eastern Ukraine.^%5B6%5D By his admission, he served in the Russian FSB until March 2013,^%5B7%5D and according to Ukrainian and EU authorities, he is a retired Russian military intelligence GRU colonel who has previously participated in the 2014 Crimea crisis.^{%5B6%5D%5B8%5D%5B9%5D}

How much more evidence is needed???

[Publicus]

Russia is in no shape to fight a world war, unless it goes nuclear, it is also pretty much strategically surrounded. China will not step in to help if it's a conventional war

But its strategic ally Iran is quite capable of closing the Srait of Hormuz and starving the world of oil supplies from the Middle East.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iran-to-close-strait-of-hormuz-if-its-security-is-threatened-warns-naval-chief-1.451011

Flat out warmongering. Full throated war madness.

Completely reckless popping off at the mouth.

Iran is not going to war against the United States and Nato for Russia.

To block Hormuz means oil.

Even the Nato allies are not sanctioning energy supplies and the global markets would collapse across the board if energy supplies were dragged into the Ras-Putin madness by anyone on either side of these issues.

Btw, your link is to an article written in 2012 and possible additional sanctions over Iran's nuclear program and all sides have progressed well beyond that and then. Your post and link have absolutely nothing to do with the present situation in Ukraine.

Warmongering.

[Publicus]

While Ras-Putin controls virtually all the mass media, he's having a bad time controlling the internet.

Reports are saturating the Internet about Russian soldiers dying in Ukraine.

The Committee for Soldiers’ Mothers are giving Putin holy hell as thousands of mothers had no idea where their sons in the Army were until some in the Ukraine managed to contact home to provide updated information. So it is they who broke the secret news that's now reported in the article that follows.

Exclusive - Over 100 Russian soldiers killed in single Ukraine battle - Russian rights activists

By Thomas Grove

MOSCOW (Reuters) - More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed in eastern Ukraine in a single battle this month while helping pro-Russian separatists fight Ukrainian troops, two members of the Russian Presidential Human Rights Council said on Thursday, citing accounts from eyewitnesses and relatives of the dead.

Ella Polyakova and Sergei Krivenko, both members of the council - an advisory body with no legal powers and an uneasy relationship with the Kremlin - said around 300 people were wounded in the same incident on Aug. 13 near the town of Snizhnye, when a column of trucks they were driving, full of ammunition, was hit by a sustained volley of Grad missiles in an ambush by Ukraine forces.

They said they had spoken to around 10 relatives of the dead and fellow soldiers who witnessed the attack, some of whom had accompanied the bodies back to Russia. Their sources said there was no documentation proving the soldiers had been in Ukraine, and the death certificates were filled out to suggest they had died elsewhere.

"When I talk to the guys who accompanied these coffins of these contract soldiers, they tell me that the order was given orally, there were no forms of documents," said Polyakova.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-casualties-idUKKBN0GS20H20140828

Edited by Publicus due to technical issues.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Publicus

[konying]

Lovetotravel ,

I admire your research , only Rebels leader is Alexander Zakharchenko

Edited September 1, 2014 by konying

[Pakboong]

" You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it? "

you cant be serious ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ukraine-a-rich-seam-for-gas-firms-despite-crisis-9220155.html

They don't have the reserves of Saudi Arabia, but they definitely have energy resources. AND a are a major transit hub for Russia's resources. A great target for Russian "meddling".

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/russia-is-crushing-ukraines-hopes-for-energy-independence/360281/

Russia Is Crushing Ukraine's Hopes for Energy Independence

Eastern Ukraine is home to nine-tenths of the country's coal and one of Europe's largest shale-gas deposits. Will the region soon be Moscow's?

Energy politics and Ukrainian politics are often the same thing. Around 40 percent of the energy Ukraine consumes comes from natural gas, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Three-fifths of the 50 billion cubic meters of natural gas Ukraine uses each year is imported from Russia, with the rest domestically produced. This gives Russia a significant bargaining chip in its relations with Kiev—one that Moscow isn't afraid to use. Gazprom, a Russian energy conglomerate with close ties to the Kremlin, raised gas prices for Ukraine by 81 percent earlier this month, prompting Ukraine's interim prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, to accuse Russia of "economic aggression."

You are aware are you not that Ukraine is beyond bankrupt. They have nothing worth having based upon their current situation. The IMF is in the middle of a 17 billion dollar bailout loan that won't even begin to keep them in crackers. The IMF stake in this outcome is huge, the Ukrainian stake is miniscule by comparison.

Putin would have to be an idiot to get involved any farther than he already has. It should be crystal clear by his obvious inaction that he wants nothing to do with the Ukraine. He wants BRICS to mature before he gets his country any more involved in regional pissing contest where there is next to nothing at stake. Try to imagine how much money would be at his disposal should BRICS come to fruition. Do you seriously think the shareholders of the IMF are simply going to let him horn in on their gravy train?

[Pakboong]

While Ras-Putin controls virtually all the mass media, he's having a bad time controlling the internet.

Reports are saturating the Internet about Russian soldiers dying in Ukraine.

The Committee for Soldiers’ Mothers are giving Putin holy hell as thousands of mothers had no idea where their sons in the Army were until some in the Ukraine managed to contact home to provide updated information. So it is they who broke the secret news that's now reported in the article that follows.

Exclusive - Over 100 Russian soldiers killed in single Ukraine battle - Russian rights activists

By Thomas Grove

MOSCOW (Reuters) - More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed in eastern Ukraine in a single battle this month while helping pro-Russian separatists fight Ukrainian troops, two members of the Russian Presidential Human Rights Council said on Thursday, citing accounts from eyewitnesses and relatives of the dead.

Ella Polyakova and Sergei Krivenko, both members of the council - an advisory body with no legal powers and an uneasy relationship with the Kremlin - said around 300 people were wounded in the same incident on Aug. 13 near the town of Snizhnye, when a column of trucks they were driving, full of ammunition, was hit by a sustained volley of Grad missiles in an ambush by Ukraine forces.

They said they had spoken to around 10 relatives of the dead and fellow soldiers who witnessed the attack, some of whom had accompanied the bodies back to Russia. Their sources said there was no documentation proving the soldiers had been in Ukraine, and the death certificates were filled out to suggest they had died elsewhere.

"When I talk to the guys who accompanied these coffins of these contract soldiers, they tell me that the order was given orally, there were no forms of documents," said Polyakova.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-casualties-idUKKBN0GS20H20140828

Edited by Publicus due to technical issues.

Blogs are simply opinions. I read them all. Here is one that is more comprehensive than others and will show details of the other side of the argument. There are clearly two sides and if the mainstream media is your only support, you really have no support.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/tom-sullivan/obama-s-catastrophic-defeat-ukraine

[lovetotravel]

Lovetotravel ,

I admire your research , only Rebels leader is Alexander Zakharchenko

Thanks. A bit about this guy, who is the PM. Notice the link to the guy I posted above, Girkin?? And how he succeeded a Russian FSB general? LOL! Putin is in this up to his neck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Zakharchenko

Aleksandr Vladimirovich Zakharchenko (Russian: Александр Владимирович Захарченко, Ukrainian: Олександр Володимирович Захарченко; born 1976^[1]) is the current Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic that declared its independence from Ukraine on 12 May 2014.^[2][3][4][5]

He succeeded the alleged ^[6] Russian FSB general Alexander Borodai on 7 August 2014,^[7] who then reportedly became his Deputy Prime Minister.^[8] He is a Ukrainian citizen.^[9]

According to Borodai (whom he addressed to as "my friend") Zakharchenko is a "person from Donetsk"^[10] and an "outspoken leader of a unit of independence supporters called Oplot".^[11] Oplot is a part of the Donbass People's Militia and Zakharchenko was indeed its leader and on 24 July 2014 was awarded the rank Major by Igor Girkin.^[12] According to Girkin he was then (also) Deputy Interior Minister.^[12] On 16 May 2014 he had been appointed 'The military commandant of Donetsk'.^[13

[lovetotravel]

You are aware are you not that Ukraine is beyond bankrupt. They have nothing worth having based upon their current situation. The IMF is in the middle of a 17 billion dollar bailout loan that won't even begin to keep them in crackers. The IMF stake in this outcome is huge, the Ukrainian stake is miniscule by comparison.

Putin would have to be an idiot to get involved any farther than he already has. It should be crystal clear by his obvious inaction that he wants nothing to do with the Ukraine. He wants BRICS to mature before he gets his country any more involved in regional pissing contest where there is next to nothing at stake. Try to imagine how much money would be at his disposal should BRICS come to fruition. Do you seriously think the shareholders of the IMF are simply going to let him horn in on their gravy train?

Yes, I'm aware they are broke. I believe that's pretty much what started all this. Aligning themselves with either the EU or Russia to help them out financially.

I'm not sure Putin can back out now? It's all about face to him. They need to provide him a face saving opportunity to back out. Otherwise, he'll be occupying Eastern Ukraine for a long time.

The BRICS are interesting, but only one country really matters there. China.

[lovetotravel]

Blogs are simply opinions. I read them all. Here is one that is more comprehensive than others and will show details of the other side of the argument. There are clearly two sides and if the mainstream media is your only support, you really have no support.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/tom-sullivan/obama-s-catastrophic-defeat-ukraine

Wow. That has to be one of the worst websites I've ever seen. So far out there is hard to believe people read that stuff. And all opinions.

[Pakboong]

Blogs are simply opinions. I read them all. Here is one that is more comprehensive than others and will show details of the other side of the argument. There are clearly two sides and if the mainstream media is your only support, you really have no support.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/tom-sullivan/obama-s-catastrophic-defeat-ukraine

Wow. That has to be one of the worst websites I've ever seen. So far out there is hard to believe people read that stuff. And all opinions.

At least it is an honest point of view that involves many opinions and is reasonably well documented. I just read this today. There are hundreds and the advantage they have over the mainstream media is that they are free to say what they want. The Mainsteam Media is completely censored. Not to mention that the Mainstream Media is also opinion.

I have never liked Russia nor have I liked Russians but this is not about nationalism, to me it is about what makes sense and what doesn't. Putin doesn't have to back-out, he has never backed-in.

[lovetotravel]

Well, hard to argue with the PM of the rebels. Straight from his mouth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-27211501

The conflict in eastern Ukraine has escalated, with the pro-Russian separatists admitting that many soldiers from Russia are helping them.

A local field commander, Mr Zakharchenko became the "prime minister" of the self-styled "Donetsk People's Republic" (DPR) in early August after his predecessor, Russian citizen Alexander Borodai, announced he was stepping down.

On 28 August Mr Zakharchenko admitted that thousands of Russian citizens, including many professional soldiers, were fighting alongside the separatists.

He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. "Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass," he said.

Impossible to say Putin doesn't know what's going on. Impossible.

[Pakboong]

Well, hard to argue with the PM of the rebels. Straight from his mouth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-27211501

The conflict in eastern Ukraine has escalated, with the pro-Russian separatists admitting that many soldiers from Russia are helping them.

A local field commander, Mr Zakharchenko became the "prime minister" of the self-styled "Donetsk People's Republic" (DPR) in early August after his predecessor, Russian citizen Alexander Borodai, announced he was stepping down.

On 28 August Mr Zakharchenko admitted that thousands of Russian citizens, including many professional soldiers, were fighting alongside the separatists.

He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. "Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass," he said.

Impossible to say Putin doesn't know what's going on. Impossible.

I don't recall anyone saying he doesn't know what is going on. The disagreement really is about "what is going on". The link I posted has little to do with my opinion. My opinion is entirely based on what I believe about his focus on BRICS. The stuff in that particular post was based upon a level of thinking and involvement well below BRICS. If BRICS succeeds, it will take half of the business currently under IMF control. We are talking $trillions. I don't care if China is the dominant player, Putin is the brains behind the play. Seriously. Ukraine is chump change by comparison. So, who would want to put a dent in Putin's financial aspirations? In fact, who would have enough clout in our world to bring both the US and the EU into the mess?

Edited September 1, 2014 by Pakboong

[BATHIK]

This just in. Another (reliable) source saying Russia is inside Ukraine. Hard to argue this any other way, though some still try.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/28/6079967/nato-satellite-images-show-russian-forces-in-ukraine

NATO is releasing satellite imagery today that it says depicts Russian troops engaging in military operations within Ukraine. Russia has slowly been encroaching on Ukraine since earlier this year, and its actions are increasingly beginning to look like an invasion — even if no one is willing to say it. "Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine," brigadier general Nico Tak, of NATO's crisis center, says in a statement."The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory."

Tak says that NATO has seen Russia giving large quantities of "advanced weapons," such as tanks and air defense systems, to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine, and he calls the situation "increasingly grave." NATO believes that the images show that Russia is attempting to destabilize Ukraine by supplying the separatists and extending the length of the conflict they've been in. Obama, too, agrees that these images show that Russia is behind the violence. "The new images of soldiers inside Ukraine make that plain," he said at a press conference this afternoon.

And as I reported earlier, even Russian media are saying their troops are inside Ukraine:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/08/ukraine-rebels-say-russia-troops-among-forces-201482882338716351.html

A pro-Russia rebel leader has said serving Russian soldiers, on leave from their posts, are fighting Ukrainian troops alongside the country's separatists in eastern Ukraine, the website of a Russian state television channel has reported.

"Among us are fighting serving soldiers, who would rather take their vacation not on a beach but with us, among brothers, who are fighting for their freedom," said Zakharchenko in an interview posted on Thursday on Vesti.ru.

What makes NATO say that these four self-propelled artillery units are Russian?

The answer from NATO is right there: "This configuration is exactly how trained military professionals would arrange their assets on the ground, indicating that these are not unskilled amateurs, but Russian soldiers."

I'm afraid it's unacceptable, though. Everyone knows Russians arrange their artillery in the shape of hammer and sickle, a five pointed star, or a vodka bottle, and they put their command and support vehicles right in the middle, not at a safe distance.

/sarcasm

When rebel leader says that thousands of Russian soldiers "on leave" fight alongside separatists he rules out Russian army invasion, or they wouldn't be on leave.

[Publicus]

Blogs are simply opinions. I read them all. Here is one that is more comprehensive than others and will show details of the other side of the argument. There are clearly two sides and if the mainstream media is your only support, you really have no support.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/tom-sullivan/obama-s-catastrophic-defeat-ukraine

Wow. That has to be one of the worst websites I've ever seen. So far out there is hard to believe people read that stuff. And all opinions.

At least it is an honest point of view that involves many opinions and is reasonably well documented. I just read this today. There are hundreds and the advantage they have over the mainstream media is that they are free to say what they want. The Mainsteam Media is completely censored. Not to mention that the Mainstream Media is also opinion.

I have never liked Russia nor have I liked Russians but this is not about nationalism, to me it is about what makes sense and what doesn't. Putin doesn't have to back-out, he has never backed-in.

You are putting the website you linked along with the Russian mass media controlled absolutely by Ras-Putin up against Reuters?

[Pakboong]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Blogs are simply opinions. I read them all. Here is one that is more comprehensive than others and will show details of the other side of the argument. There are clearly two sides and if the mainstream media is your only support, you really have no support.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/tom-sullivan/obama-s-catastrophic-defeat-ukraine

Wow. That has to be one of the worst websites I've ever seen. So far out there is hard to believe people read that stuff. And all opinions.

At least it is an honest point of view that involves many opinions and is reasonably well documented. I just read this today. There are hundreds and the advantage they have over the mainstream media is that they are free to say what they want. The Mainsteam Media is completely censored. Not to mention that the Mainstream Media is also opinion.

I have never liked Russia nor have I liked Russians but this is not about nationalism, to me it is about what makes sense and what doesn't. Putin doesn't have to back-out, he has never backed-in.

You are putting the website you linked along with the Russian mass media controlled absolutely by Ras-Putin up against Reuters?

alt=cheesy.gif width=32 height=20>

I was not putting that website against anything. But, that website is not censored, Reuters is. I put that up as a comprehensive opinion on the other side of the arguement. My opinion is based on what I believe about BRICS. I don't really use opinions other than my own.

[Publicus]

Lovetotravel,

It is no different, it's just dressed up differently.

US bombed Isis in Iraq on what basis ? To help surrounded towns?

How would Russia bombing Ukrainian army be different? East is surrounded, no water or food or any basic supplies.

Ukraine shells civilians .

There is no evidence at all of Russia being in Ukraine . There is a satellite image with caption Russian army, unless you have X-ray vision, for the life of me I do not know how you consider blur to be evidence.

"There is no evidence at all of Russia being in Ukraine."

Do try to keep up.

The first rule of getting out of a deep hole is to stop digging.

I know this factual article is not available to you in the Russian language so as a public service I provide it to you to read in English.

Your welcome.

Why Putin no longer conceals Russian casualties in Ukraine

By allowing discussions about casualties in Ukraine, the Kremlin is attempting to control protests against the war and gradually to prepare society for new shipments of “cargo 200″ from the Donbas.

After several days of silence and secret burials of the Pskov paratroopers, a number of individuals in Russia have finally begun to declare publicly that Russian soldiers are dying in Ukraine,

Based simply on one day and only on the battle for Snizhne, already at least 100 Russians have been killed and 300 wounded.

To hide anything, especially the massive deaths of their own citizens in a neighboring country in the era of the Internet, is practically impossible, and sooner or later the Russian authorities would have to admit to a war with Ukraine, as they did regarding the “green men” in Crimea.

http://euromaidanpre...ies-in-ukraine/

"Why Putin no longer conceals Russian casualties in Ukraine."

Edited September 1, 2014 by Publicus

[Publicus]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Wow. That has to be one of the worst websites I've ever seen. So far out there is hard to believe people read that stuff. And all opinions.

At least it is an honest point of view that involves many opinions and is reasonably well documented. I just read this today. There are hundreds and the advantage they have over the mainstream media is that they are free to say what they want. The Mainsteam Media is completely censored. Not to mention that the Mainstream Media is also opinion.

I have never liked Russia nor have I liked Russians but this is not about nationalism, to me it is about what makes sense and what doesn't. Putin doesn't have to back-out, he has never backed-in.

You are putting the website you linked along with the Russian mass media controlled absolutely by Ras-Putin up against Reuters?

alt=cheesy.gif width=32 height=20>

I was not putting that website against anything. But, that website is not censored, Reuters is. I put that up as a comprehensive opinion on the other side of the arguement. My opinion is based on what I believe about BRICS. I don't really use opinions other than my own.

You say Reuters is censored - in Russia no doubt by Ras-Putin no doubt. Only.

The other Brics are lying low in this.

What have other Brics governments said in support of Ras-Putin or against Nato?

When do the Brics paratroopers arrive in Ukraine to give their support to Ras?

Not in this lifetime which for the Moscow madman is beginning to look awfully hairy.

[losworld]

I'm at a loss as to how Russian President Vladimir Putin can compare the siege of Leningrad by Nazi Germany to what is happening now in Eastern Ukraine.

The sovereign state of Ukraine has an internal problem whereby some of its citizens in the eastern part of the country are violently advocating independence. This is an internal affair and must be solved by the Ukrainian government.

Russian interference in the affairs the sovereign state of Ukraine with the takeover of Crimea is comparable to the actions of Nazi Germany annexation of Czechoslovakia in 1938.

It seems that the western world is making the same mistakes again... looking on and allowing Russian aggression against the sovereign state of Ukraine.

I think this comparison to the sieges has about as much validity as comparing Putin's action to those of Hitler. Both sides are full of b.s. with suckers caught in the middle. Don't believe any of the b.s. do your own research and stop being manipulated.

[konying]

Lovetotravel,

It is no different, it's just dressed up differently.

US bombed Isis in Iraq on what basis ? To help surrounded towns?

How would Russia bombing Ukrainian army be different? East is surrounded, no water or food or any basic supplies.

Ukraine shells civilians .

There is no evidence at all of Russia being in Ukraine . There is a satellite image with caption Russian army, unless you have X-ray vision, for the life of me I do not know how you consider blur to be evidence.

"There is no evidence at all of Russia being in Ukraine."

Do try to keep up.

The first rule of getting out of a deep hole is to stop digging.

I know this factual article is not available to you in the Russian language so as a public service I provide it to you to read in English.

Your welcome.

Why Putin no longer conceals Russian casualties in Ukraine

By allowing discussions about casualties in Ukraine, the Kremlin is attempting to control protests against the war and gradually to prepare society for new shipments of “cargo 200″ from the Donbas.

After several days of silence and secret burials of the Pskov paratroopers, a number of individuals in Russia have finally begun to declare publicly that Russian soldiers are dying in Ukraine,

Based simply on one day and only on the battle for Snizhne, already at least 100 Russians have been killed and 300 wounded.

To hide anything, especially the massive deaths of their own citizens in a neighboring country in the era of the Internet, is practically impossible, and sooner or later the Russian authorities would have to admit to a war with Ukraine, as they did regarding the “green men” in Crimea.

http://euromaidanpre...ies-in-ukraine/

"Why Putin no longer conceals Russian casualties in Ukraine."

NIce photo and a twist of truth.

This is humanitarian convoy which was diverted , stopped, refused and attacked.

PS. have you noticed how caring EU and US have not sent an ounce of aid to civilians of East?

They are getting killed, burned and misplaced and not a single word