Ukraine 'slipping out of control', Germany warns

[Publicus]

Lovetotravel,

It is no different, it's just dressed up differently.

US bombed Isis in Iraq on what basis ? To help surrounded towns?

How would Russia bombing Ukrainian army be different? East is surrounded, no water or food or any basic supplies.

Ukraine shells civilians .

There is no evidence at all of Russia being in Ukraine . There is a satellite image with caption Russian army, unless you have X-ray vision, for the life of me I do not know how you consider blur to be evidence.

"There is no evidence at all of Russia being in Ukraine."

Do try to keep up.

The first rule of getting out of a deep hole is to stop digging.

I know this factual article is not available to you in the Russian language so as a public service I provide it to you to read in English.

Your welcome.

Why Putin no longer conceals Russian casualties in Ukraine

By allowing discussions about casualties in Ukraine, the Kremlin is attempting to control protests against the war and gradually to prepare society for new shipments of “cargo 200″ from the Donbas.

After several days of silence and secret burials of the Pskov paratroopers, a number of individuals in Russia have finally begun to declare publicly that Russian soldiers are dying in Ukraine,

Based simply on one day and only on the battle for Snizhne, already at least 100 Russians have been killed and 300 wounded.

To hide anything, especially the massive deaths of their own citizens in a neighboring country in the era of the Internet, is practically impossible, and sooner or later the Russian authorities would have to admit to a war with Ukraine, as they did regarding the “green men” in Crimea.

http://euromaidanpre...ies-in-ukraine/

"Why Putin no longer conceals Russian casualties in Ukraine."

NIce photo and a twist of truth.

This is humanitarian convoy which was diverted , stopped, refused and attacked.

PS. have you noticed how caring EU and US have not sent an ounce of aid to civilians of East?

They are getting killed, burned and misplaced and not a single word

Do you realize you are quoting from the Kremlin?

Actually, yes, you do know and realize it.

Russian aid to Ukraine arrives in main battle tanks, artillery, warplanes, missiles, ammunition trucks (that get blown to smitereens). I suppose we'll hear next that the Russian armed forces are conducting a benevolent urban renewal project in the cities and communities of eastern and southeastern Ukraine.

Reducing "overpopulation" there besides.

[lovetotravel]

NIce photo and a twist of truth.

This is humanitarian convoy which was diverted , stopped, refused and attacked.

PS. have you noticed how caring EU and US have not sent an ounce of aid to civilians of East?

They are getting killed, burned and misplaced and not a single word

Wait a minute. It was a covert convoy (they refused to be inspected by the international red cross) that went into another country's sovereign territory illegally, and was never attacked. I don't know where you are from, but I'm sure you have another country on your border. How do you think your military would reply if that neighbor sent in 200 trucks without inspection into your country, ignoring the border control agents, and delivered the contents to people inside your country. You know the answer.

The people behind this are in Moscow. The western world doesn't have their military fighting this country. Only Russia does.

How about respecting the desires of the citizens of Ukraine? Not yours, not mine, but theirs. Putin's obviously not interested:

http://currentnewstoday.net/battle-rages-near-ukraine-airport/

Residents in the strategic port city of Mariupol held an anti-Russia rally over the weekend

You can hear the pleas from the residents here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29010985

[Jingthing]

The USA has a free press. Putin's Russia doesn't. Fact.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

Russia is a dictatorship now. Putin controls all press. Comparing to American press freedom is silly.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[craigt3365]

OK, please show some respect to each other. A few posts with bickering and unsubstantiated rumors have been removed. Please respect each other and provide links to credible news sources.

[Publicus]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it?

Russia is the largest producer of oil and gas, so what does Ukraine has to offer that Russia so badly needs?

Answer is NOTHING.

Ukraine heavily relies on Russian gas

If Russia was interested in Ukraine, they would have already occupied and nothing US or EU could do.

It is Ukrainian aim and determination to get Russia into war with the West.

Ukraine is the one making wild accusations and claims and then US all over sudden produces " unrecognizable" evidence.

Were you aware, the night before idiot Poroshenko made the claim Russian troops are in Ukraine, he had 4 hour meeting with Putin, which finished at 2am?

Name dates Poroshenko or his pro Nazi party members, had a meeting or negotiations with the so called rebels? NEVER!!!

Here is the reality, US sponsored and supported an illegal overthrow of democratically elected government.

US then installed its chosen people.

All this, just to piss off Russia.

If anything, Putin has been outsmarting US every step of the way, he is an excellent tactician.

Russia has been playing very cool, and level headed, but i am not sure if Putin will continue to do so for much longer.

Putin does hold the power to make US and EU lives hell.

Also, can you think of any legitimate reason why every single proposal for peace in Ukraine put forward by Russia at UN gets blocked by US?

Some guy with a thick mustache keeps driving through the neighborhood in a badly hand painted orange truck spewing thick black CO2 out its rear gagging and choking everyone. Hard to see the sun these days.

A couple of our guys pulled him over after noticing his vanity license place BORAT on the front which in the corner had a passport size photo of Sarah Palin seeing Russia.

When the neighbors told the guy to get out of the neighborhood and to stay out the guy bellowed something about "the power to make US and EU lives hell."

The guy demanded to speak to a German American but none would give him the time or satisfaction.

He said we all were Nazis and sped away.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Publicus

[konying]

Seriously, for what possible reason could Russia desire to sneak a few troops over the border? To me, it makes no sense what-so-ever. I am as certain as I can be that Russia is preoccupied with other matters. Hungary sold Kiev some 80 T-72 tanks last week for their scrap metal price. Only Russia still uses the out dated T-72. Kiev uses only the T-80 and the T84.

I am seriously not trying to defend Russia. I fought the Cold War against them my entire professional career. That experience i hope does not make me stupid. Things still have to make sense.

Plenty of reasons. Feeling intimated by NATO, securing military bases (like the Crimea invasion), securing energy resources (quite a few in Ukraine), securing transport corridors for their energy deliveries to Europe. Lots of reasons.

Unfortunately, only a few don't accept Russia's involvement. The majority do. We're on the verge of a full scale war and Russia's right in the heart of it. Stirring things up.

Did you read about their trucks crossing into Ukraine without authorization? Under the guise of "humanitarian" supplies? If that was the case, why not let the red cross, who were right there, check each truck? They opted not to do that and cross with their personnel and supplies illegally. Perhaps they were hiding something????

You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it?

Russia is the largest producer of oil and gas, so what does Ukraine has to offer that Russia so badly needs?

Answer is NOTHING.

Ukraine heavily relies on Russian gas

If Russia was interested in Ukraine, they would have already occupied and nothing US or EU could do.

It is Ukrainian aim and determination to get Russia into war with the West.

Ukraine is the one making wild accusations and claims and then US all over sudden produces " unrecognizable" evidence.

Were you aware, the night before idiot Poroshenko made the claim Russian troops are in Ukraine, he had 4 hour meeting with Putin, which finished at 2am?

Name dates Poroshenko or his pro Nazi party members, had a meeting or negotiations with the so called rebels? NEVER!!!

Here is the reality, US sponsored and supported an illegal overthrow of democratically elected government.

US then installed its chosen people.

All this, just to piss off Russia.

If anything, Putin has been outsmarting US every step of the way, he is an excellent tactician.

Russia has been playing very cool, and level headed, but i am not sure if Putin will continue to do so for much longer.

Putin does hold the power to make US and EU lives hell.

Also, can you think of any legitimate reason why every single proposal for peace in Ukraine put forward by Russia at UN gets blocked by US?

Some guy with a thick mustache keeps driving through the neighborhood in a badly hand painted orange truck spewing thick black CO2 out its rear gagging and choking everyone. Hard to see the sun these days.

A couple of our guys pulled him over after noticing his vanity license place BORAT on the front which in the corner had a passport size photo of Sarah Palin seeing Russia.

When the neighbors told the guy to get out of the neighborhood and to stay out the guy bellowed something about "the power to make US and EU lives hell."

The guy demanded to speak to a German American but none would give him the time or satisfaction.

He said we all were Nazis and sped away.

Funny, little sad , nevertheless funny.

In December 2012, the European Parliament expressed concern regarding Svoboda's growing support, recalling "that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against theEU's fundamental values and principles," and appealed "to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with" Svoboda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)#Allegations_of_neo-nazism_and_political_extremism

EU's acceptance of Ukraine's radical Svoboda party is shameful http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/eus-acceptance-ukraines-radical-svoboda-party-shameful-301110

Svoboda—which currently has thirty-six deputies in the 450-member Ukrainian parliament—began life in the mid-1990s as the Social National Party of the Ukraine, but its roots lie in World War II, when Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis found common ground in the ideology of anti-communism and anti-Semitism. In April 1943, Dr. Otto von Wachter, the Nazi commander of Galicia—the name for western Ukraine—turned the First Division of the Ukrainian National Army into the 14 Grenadier Division of the Waffen SS, the so-called “Galicia Division.” http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt

Edited September 2, 2014 by konying

[konying]

OK, please show some respect to each other. A few posts with bickering and unsubstantiated rumors have been removed. Please respect each other and provide links to credible news sources.

I am sorry, here you go

If You Trust The American Press, Here's A Thought Experiment http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/05/12/if-you-trust-murdochs-fox-news-or-wsj-heres-a-thought-experiment/

As of February 12th 2014, the United States is ranked 46th in the Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index.^[20] This is a measure of freedom available to the press, encompassing areas such as government censorship, and not indicative of the quality of journalism. There was a fall from 20th in 2010 to 42nd in 2012, which was attributed to arrests of journalists covering the Occupy movement.^{[21] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_the_United_States}

U.S. Press Freedom Fell 27 Places Last Year to 47th in the World http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/02/us-press-freedom-fell-27-places-last-year-to-47th-in-the-world/252391/

[rijb]

A French agency about as pro-American as you are.

[Publicus]

OK, please show some respect to each other. A few posts with bickering and unsubstantiated rumors have been removed. Please respect each other and provide links to credible news sources.

I am sorry, here you go

If You Trust The American Press, Here's A Thought Experiment http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/05/12/if-you-trust-murdochs-fox-news-or-wsj-heres-a-thought-experiment/

As of February 12th 2014, the United States is ranked 46th in the Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index.^[20] This is a measure of freedom available to the press, encompassing areas such as government censorship, and not indicative of the quality of journalism. There was a fall from 20th in 2010 to 42nd in 2012, which was attributed to arrests of journalists covering the Occupy movement.^{[21] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_the_United_States}

U.S. Press Freedom Fell 27 Places Last Year to 47th in the World http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/02/us-press-freedom-fell-27-places-last-year-to-47th-in-the-world/252391/

Reporters Without Borders does much excellent work and since initiating the Press Freedom Index in 2002 have provided the global community with a valuable public service.

RWB however continue to experiment with their Index methodology, changing it almost annually. Consequently, the Index as it pertains to the United States varies greatly year to year. The Index presents wide variations of press freedom in the U.S. as if the US were a third world country used to coups that suddenly change a free press to a martial law governed press / media.

For instance, let's look at the variations the RWB Index has assigned to the U.S. since the Index was first presented in 2002:

In 2002 the US ranked 18th and by the end of 2013 ranked 33rd, presently ranking 46th.

Meanwhile, in 2004 the US ranked 20th. In 2005 it suddenly ranked 43rd. In 09 the US was back to 20th. But in 2011 the US "plunged" to 44th.

RWB has what the Washington Post calls a "complex" methodology which the Post points out changes from year to year. The reality and fact of the matter is that press freedoms in the United States hardly vary from year to year or even from decade to decade. Freedom of the Press / Media is a cornerstone of US democracy and it is a constant of US democracy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/12/is-u-s-press-freedom-really-plummeting-not-if-you-look-at-the-data/

Additionally, the Forbes article makes no suggestion the U.S. government take ownership or operating control of the nation's mass media as Moscow and Beijing did long ago. The Atlantic notes that Niger, which this year ranks above the U.S., has a new president and government that have applied U.S. First Amendment freedoms to a long censored and dissolved press and media there.

The post makes no mention or reference to deaths of Nurkadilov and Sarsenbaev, the trumped-up rape charges against journalist Sergei Duvanov who's previously been arrested for "insulting the dignity of the President," as well as the highly suspicious death of journalist Lira Baiseitova. Aside from Vladimir Putin, the Anna Politkovskaya murder still does not have even one suspect.

Russia meanwhile ranks where it usually ranks regardless of the continuing variations of RWB methodology, further declining to 148th from 138 and the following statement by RWB:

Russia, which suffers from a basic lack of democracy, continues slowly but steadily dismantling the free media, with industrial groups close to President Vladimir Putin buying up nearly all independent media outlets and with passage of a law discouraging NGO activity.

Each year several journalists are murdered in Russia with complete impunity. The person who ordered the July 2004 killing in Moscow of Paul Klebnikov, editor of the Russian edition of Forbes magazine, remains publicly unknown. The murder of investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya in early October 2006 is a poor omen for the coming year.

http://seansrussiablog.org/2006/10/24/russia-ranked-147th-in-press-freedom-index/

Russia is in good company so to speak with China at 173rd of the 180 countries.

The United States is not in violation of news and information guarantees enshrined in international law, specifically, Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the 1977 Protocols Additional 1 and 2 to the Geneva Conventions. Russia is in official violation of all of them......and then some..

[Publicus]

You keep referring to Ukraine's energy resources. Please name it?

Russia is the largest producer of oil and gas, so what does Ukraine has to offer that Russia so badly needs?

Answer is NOTHING.

Ukraine heavily relies on Russian gas

If Russia was interested in Ukraine, they would have already occupied and nothing US or EU could do.

It is Ukrainian aim and determination to get Russia into war with the West.

Ukraine is the one making wild accusations and claims and then US all over sudden produces " unrecognizable" evidence.

Were you aware, the night before idiot Poroshenko made the claim Russian troops are in Ukraine, he had 4 hour meeting with Putin, which finished at 2am?

Name dates Poroshenko or his pro Nazi party members, had a meeting or negotiations with the so called rebels? NEVER!!!

Here is the reality, US sponsored and supported an illegal overthrow of democratically elected government.

US then installed its chosen people.

All this, just to piss off Russia.

If anything, Putin has been outsmarting US every step of the way, he is an excellent tactician.

Russia has been playing very cool, and level headed, but i am not sure if Putin will continue to do so for much longer.

Putin does hold the power to make US and EU lives hell.

Also, can you think of any legitimate reason why every single proposal for peace in Ukraine put forward by Russia at UN gets blocked by US?

Some guy with a thick mustache keeps driving through the neighborhood in a badly hand painted orange truck spewing thick black CO2 out its rear gagging and choking everyone. Hard to see the sun these days.

A couple of our guys pulled him over after noticing his vanity license place BORAT on the front which in the corner had a passport size photo of Sarah Palin seeing Russia.

When the neighbors told the guy to get out of the neighborhood and to stay out the guy bellowed something about "the power to make US and EU lives hell."

The guy demanded to speak to a German American but none would give him the time or satisfaction.

He said we all were Nazis and sped away.

Funny, little sad , nevertheless funny.

In December 2012, the European Parliament expressed concern regarding Svoboda's growing support, recalling "that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against theEU's fundamental values and principles," and appealed "to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with" Svoboda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)#Allegations_of_neo-nazism_and_political_extremism

EU's acceptance of Ukraine's radical Svoboda party is shameful http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/eus-acceptance-ukraines-radical-svoboda-party-shameful-301110

Svoboda—which currently has thirty-six deputies in the 450-member Ukrainian parliament—began life in the mid-1990s as the Social National Party of the Ukraine, but its roots lie in World War II, when Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis found common ground in the ideology of anti-communism and anti-Semitism. In April 1943, Dr. Otto von Wachter, the Nazi commander of Galicia—the name for western Ukraine—turned the First Division of the Ukrainian National Army into the 14 Grenadier Division of the Waffen SS, the so-called “Galicia Division.” http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt

Svoboda has drifted between being the 4rd political party of Ukraine or the third to entering parliament just recently with roughly 10 percent of the votes of the electorate.

Svoboda is not running the government of Ukraine, is not the government of Ukraine, does not command the armed forces against Russians in Ukraine or Russian supported insurgents. They are newcomers to formal government and have an insignificant numerical presence in the parliament.

Svoboda is a minor political party which, like the tea party in the U.S., gets disproportionate attention because of its outsized rhetoric and demonstrations, party paraphernalia, colorful personalities in leadership; continuing and ringing denunciations of Russia, Putin, the energy oligarchs.

So the post reminds me of a quote I read recently,

*A good guide to judging how close a person is to the Kremlin position on Ukraine is how often and how loudly s/he informs you that “fascists” are running that country.*

http://20committee.c.../#ixzz39jg1FB5S

[Mzungu]

Germany warns?? We ought to listen, they surely know about wars...

[lovetotravel]

OK, please show some respect to each other. A few posts with bickering and unsubstantiated rumors have been removed. Please respect each other and provide links to credible news sources.

I am sorry, here you go

If You Trust The American Press, Here's A Thought Experiment http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/05/12/if-you-trust-murdochs-fox-news-or-wsj-heres-a-thought-experiment/

As of February 12th 2014, the United States is ranked 46th in the Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index.^[20] This is a measure of freedom available to the press, encompassing areas such as government censorship, and not indicative of the quality of journalism. There was a fall from 20th in 2010 to 42nd in 2012, which was attributed to arrests of journalists covering the Occupy movement.^{[21] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_the_United_States}

U.S. Press Freedom Fell 27 Places Last Year to 47th in the World http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/02/us-press-freedom-fell-27-places-last-year-to-47th-in-the-world/252391/

Great source of information. Did you notice Russia's place? Nobody says they 100% trust any media source. And all media has their bias. But when the same things are being consistently reported, you tend to get the true picture. Which is happening now with Ukraine and the Russian invasion.

Great article on foreign fighters in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28951324

It is no secret that Russian citizens have occupied senior posts among the rebels, the most famous of them being Igor "Strelkov" Girkin, who reportedly held the rank of reserve colonel in Russia's Federal Security Service as late as last year.

There is strong evidence that rank-and-file Russian fighters have entered east Ukraine to join the rebels, but whether they are volunteers making common cause with ethnic Russians in Luhansk and Donetsk, or mercenaries, is a grey area.

Rebel leader Alexander Zakharchenko has stated publicly that between 3.000 and 4,000 Russian "volunteers" have fought for the rebels since the start of the uprising in April.

"There are also many in the current Russian military that prefer to spend their leave among us, brothers who are fighting for their freedom, rather than on a beach," he said on 28 August.

Evidence has mounted that regular Russian soldiers are involved, with 10 paratroopers captured inside Ukraine and indirect evidence of military casualties at home in Russia.

[Pakboong]

The sad part of all this for me at least is, I need the West to prevail and for Putin's plan for BRICS to fail miserably. He is of course trying in every way possible to avoid a war. What I really need to maintain my life style and comfort is for Putin to back out of his grand financial plan to take over what is currently controlled by the IMF. Nobody knows how much the IMF makes every year. It is well into the $trillions. Compare that to taking a beyond bankrupt country. I seems to me that this should be a no-brainer but obviously it is not.

The IMF has the third largest gold reserve in the world, the Ukraine can't even afford a loaf of bread. Nobody could seriously think Putin is that stupid but I must be wrong because everybody seems to think Ukraine has already been invaded.

[lovetotravel]

The sad part of all this for me at least is, I need the West to prevail and for Putin's plan for BRICS to fail miserably. He is of course trying in every way possible to avoid a war. What I really need to maintain my life style and comfort is for Putin to back out of his grand financial plan to take over what is currently controlled by the IMF. Nobody knows how much the IMF makes every year. It is well into the $trillions. Compare that to taking a beyond bankrupt country. I seems to me that this should be a no-brainer but obviously it is not.

The IMF has the third largest gold reserve in the world, the Ukraine can't even afford a loaf of bread. Nobody could seriously think Putin is that stupid but I must be wrong because everybody seems to think Ukraine has already been invaded.

Sorry, but Putin has started this war. The only people who don't believe it are the Russian nationals who are not being told the truth and those who only trust Russian media. Ukraine has been invaded. It's a matter of fact now. Reports of Russian mothers grieving their dead sons is pretty solid evidence. And reporters being run off when trying to interview these people or visit the graves. Pretty bad. They even attack their own investigative reporters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582

Russian journalists say they have been attacked while investigating reports that soldiers were secretly buried after being killed in Ukraine.

The paratroopers were buried in a village near the western city of Pskov, where they were based.

What appears to be fresh graves of the killed paratroopers were first spotted in the village by Pskovskaya Guberniya, a local newspaper.

Its journalists say they were attacked at the cemetery.

[konying]

Svoboda has drifted between being the 4rd political party of Ukraine or the third to entering parliament just recently with roughly 10 percent of the votes of the electorate.

Svoboda is not running the government of Ukraine, is not the government of Ukraine, does not command the armed forces against Russians in Ukraine or Russian supported insurgents. They are newcomers to formal government and have an insignificant numerical presence in the parliament.

Svoboda is a minor political party which, like the tea party in the U.S., gets disproportionate attention because of its outsized rhetoric and demonstrations, party paraphernalia, colorful personalities in leadership; continuing and ringing denunciations of Russia, Putin, the energy oligarchs.

So the post reminds me of a quote I read recently,

*A good guide to judging how close a person is to the Kremlin position on Ukraine is how often and how loudly s/he informs you that fascists are running that country.*

http://20committee.c.../#ixzz39jg1FB5S

Its not the running party? No.... its members are and so is the ideology, unless you believe yellow arm bands with swastika are the new fashion in the military

[Publicus]

Svoboda has drifted between being the 4rd political party of Ukraine or the third to entering parliament just recently with roughly 10 percent of the votes of the electorate.

Svoboda is not running the government of Ukraine, is not the government of Ukraine, does not command the armed forces against Russians in Ukraine or Russian supported insurgents. They are newcomers to formal government and have an insignificant numerical presence in the parliament.

Svoboda is a minor political party which, like the tea party in the U.S., gets disproportionate attention because of its outsized rhetoric and demonstrations, party paraphernalia, colorful personalities in leadership; continuing and ringing denunciations of Russia, Putin, the energy oligarchs.

So the post reminds me of a quote I read recently,

*A good guide to judging how close a person is to the Kremlin position on Ukraine is how often and how loudly s/he informs you that fascists are running that country.*

http://20committee.c.../#ixzz39jg1FB5S

Its not the running party? No.... its members are and so is the ideology, unless you believe yellow arm bands with swastika are the new fashion in the military

People in Putin's corner who come out swinging wildly are in fact hiding or ignoring a great deal that is central and thus determinant in the people's movement for democracy in Ukraine.

Diversity and legitimacy.

Ukraine protesters are comprised of an unusually diverse and legitimate group which includes the Afghan journalist Mustafa Nayem who used social media to incite the revolution, Ukrainian veterans of the Soviet Red Army who invaded Afghanistan in 1979, Muslims from the south, Jews from Kiev, Roma from the north, feminists, academics and the ever propagating and menacing gay population.

The small Svoboda political party is a part of the Ukraine center-right and has just recently entered parliament. Svoboda has fewer than 10% membership of the entire parliament. Within Svoboda is a small faction known to Ukrainians as the Right Sector, The faction within Svoboda and Svoboda itself has as much clout in Ukraine politics as I have at TVF.

It is the noisy and high profile but marginal Right Sector fragment of the small Svoboda party to which Putin and his propagandists refer. And propagandists have two means and methods, namely to lie and to lie by exaggeration.

GAY NEO-NAZIS TAKE OVER UKRAINE!

In Russia, state TV reports the Ukraine protests are part of a larger gay conspiracy. Euromaiden is the name of the square where the massacre of over one hundred non-violent protesters took place at the behest of Mr. Yanukovych. Russian media’s moniker for this site is ‘Gayeuromaiden.’

Meanwhile, Western media was repeatedly told that the protesters were neo-Nazis

Simultaneously, the former Ukraine regime instructed riot police that the opposition movement was led by a large Jewish conspiracy (as if the words fell from the very mouth of Mel Gibson).

http://danteruffalo.com/2014/03/16/gay-neo-nazis-take-over-ukraine/

Putin's propagandists around here have not presented Putin's vile nonsense passed on daily to Russians in Russia because people here know better, as enough TVF members reject outright this kind of virulent Putin campaign of lies, hate and false vilification.

The bottom line is that the Svoboda party is a small part of the Ukraine political center-right and that the Right Sector of Svoboda is marginal within it.

[BATHIK]

It's not just Svoboda and Right Sector, even "moderate" Ukrainians have gone fully genocidal.

Check out this article, it's very long but it's one of the best reads on the situation I have ever seen, far better than endless "they are nazis, nor they are not, yes they are, too" arguments.

[Publicus]

It's not just Svoboda and Right Sector, even "moderate" Ukrainians have gone fully genocidal.

Check out this article, it's very long but it's one of the best reads on the situation I have ever seen, far better than endless "they are nazis, nor they are not, yes they are, too" arguments.

The writer Keith Gessen is of course an accomplished writer of fiction and about real life politics, the latter almost always Russian/Soviet. For a guy born in the Soviet Union he has absolute mastery over the English language (Harvard etc). He needs however to work on fully recognizing the difference between fiction and real life politics and their implications beyond Russia/Eurasia.

Which is to say Gessen needs to work profoundly on his attitude Russians have no apologies or regrets to state for (the 74 years of) Stalinism and the USSR. Strange that Konstantin "Keith" Gessen is firm to say Germany did indeed need to apologize profusely and extensively for its 12 years of Nazism but that Russia basically gets a free pass on its police state Soviet era, instead perhaps to apologize a little bit at some unspecified time distant (after everyone affected by it all has transited the Pearly Gates).

When Gessen says Putin is Putin he may as well be saying Stalin was Stalin.

Oh, Gessen does say that too.

My god.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/discussions/audio-video/foreign-affairs-focus-on-books-keith-gessen-on-russias-soviet-le

[BATHIK]

<snip. Moderation comment>

Anyway, why should Russians apologize for Stalin? Which Russians, btw, those who survived his repressions? Die hard communists? Why should the rest apologize for what some, not all communists think? What about about Russians who say Stalin was Georgian? Why should they apologize? Georgians don't seem to be too apologetic for producing one of history's greatest tyrants, why Russians should?

Stalin died sixty years ago and his "personality cult" was officially dismantled right after that. Practically every currently living Russian was taught that Stalin was an aberration, even communist sympathizers, they do not feel any personal responsibility for his actions.

Unlike Hitler, his repressions were directed mostly at Russians themselves and he wasn't prejudiced against any particular ethnicity, his enemies were ideological ones and his supporters were also defined by ideology. Most of his terror apparatus he purged himself and after he was gone there was no one responsible for pre-war atrocities left.

That chapter is closed and has been closed for half a century.

Holodomor that Ukrainians love to go on about was not a strictly Ukrainian affair, just as many people were starved in the same years and by the same policies in Russia's own heartland. It was nothing personal, as they say.

Ukraine was one of the most prosperous, most developed regions in the USSR, they had top notch science, technology and industry, and high standards of living, better than in most of Russia. Should Russians apologize for doing that to them, too?

Then they decided to be independent and became Europe's worst screw-ups, bar Moldova. Who owes them good life now? EU? Good luck with that.

Fact is, most of their industry is closely integrated with Russia, their clients are Russian, their supply chains are Russian, the technology is Russian. They can't cut themselves off. They already tried in the 90s, it didn't work, free market is not a very friendly place to newcomers.

They teamed up with Airbus once but Airbus took their designs (they used to build world largest airplanes) and showed them a finger, saying they better build this stuff themselves and in Europe proper. Companies that used to design and built engines for fighter jets were told to make vacuum cleaners instead and compete with Chinese, didn't work out. After years of starvations they found their way back into the Russian market and then this Maidan happened.

It's even worse for Donbass, they barely survived deindustrialisation in the 90s and now they are told to go through it again just because snobs in Kiev want a European kind of life.

Without close integration with Russia Ukraine is nothing, it won't survive. Europe is not a place of opportunity where everyone can make a fortune. They have 25 percent unemployment in some parts of it as it is, they don't need Ukraine and its chocolate, nor can they afford to. Days when they poured huge some of money in Eastern Europe are gone.

Maidan revolutionaries live in a la-la land they imagined by watching old Hollywood movies.

[Publicus]

It should be embarrassing to miss the point that the USSR cost the world many lives and a lotta bucks during the Cold War, forcing school systems in free democracies to also teach their primary school children to duck under the desk when the big one arrived special flash delivery from the Kremlin. Kruschechev almost blew up the planet with his missiles in Cuba in 1962, all because he in his gross and nearly catastrophic peasant stupidity severely misjudged Prez Kennedy and the United States.

Russia owes the world its apology for screwing up the world big time for generations of people who wanted nothing more than to live their lives in peace and prosperity. Stalin gave Kim in North Korea the green light to invade the South thus dragging in the U.S. and its UN allies The United States would not have stumbled in to Vietnam if the only totalitarian state in the world had been China alone which was ignoring Vietnam due to China's cultural revolution insanity.

More to the immediate point, Ukraine is a sovereign and independent nation despite Russia's post-Soviet blues and inferiorities so Russia and Tsar Putin (much more a tsar in these times than a Soviet) needs to recognize the fact. Moscow needs to learn to respect the fact and to respect Ukraine's 21st century decisions, preferences, choices to align with the EU, the West, the United States. If doing should screw Ukraine, which is a preposterous proposition, then that's Ukraine's' choice and you guys have to learn to live with it as the mature adults that you are not.

The 19th century time when countries altered the borders of others by military force and due to tribal irredentism and raw revanchism are past, done and should rightfully and morally be over with, yet Russia led by RasPutin retains its Romanoff ruminations. Rasputin's Ukraine adventure marks the first and only time since World War II that a leader, a tyrant and a ruthless despot, has tried to alter the borders of a country in Europe and by military force besides.

.Russia lost the Cold War and now Russia is losing the peace of Europe and of the world at large. Its not apologizing for the Cold War has left it to carry on in irresponsible and lethal ways that are simultaneously tsarist and Soviet. Which leaves the rest of us no choice but to smack Russia down yet once again, good and hard yet once again.

Hillary Clinton has more balls than Obama and Putin combined which makes her your worst nightmare since Ronald Reagan..

Edited September 4, 2014 by Publicus

[BATHIK]

Demagoguery is strong with you, Publicus.

Russia apologize for the Cold War? Despite what you think, neither Soviets nor Russians see themselves as aggressors there, the west was the victim of its own paranoia. Nor do they feel a lot of sympathy for poor suffering Americans.

Russians respected Ukrainian choice for over twenty years and will continue to do so, they are not going to cry over ruined Ukrainian industry.

As for altering the borders - Crimea didn't accept regime change in Kiev and neither did Donbass. Russians only helped, and it wasn't long ago when lots of people in Donbass felt betrayed by Moscow. They counted on a lot more help then Moscow delivered.

Ukraine's own insanity was what caused its regions to break away and seek reunification with Russia.

[Publicus]

Demagoguery is strong with you, Publicus.

Russia apologize for the Cold War? Despite what you think, neither Soviets nor Russians see themselves as aggressors there, the west was the victim of its own paranoia. Nor do they feel a lot of sympathy for poor suffering Americans.

Russians respected Ukrainian choice for over twenty years and will continue to do so, they are not going to cry over ruined Ukrainian industry.

As for altering the borders - Crimea didn't accept regime change in Kiev and neither did Donbass. Russians only helped, and it wasn't long ago when lots of people in Donbass felt betrayed by Moscow. They counted on a lot more help then Moscow delivered.

Ukraine's own insanity was what caused its regions to break away and seek reunification with Russia.

Fantasy land.

[BATHIK]

Fantasy land.

That's the problem with post-Maidan Ukraine - they can't possibly comprehend that there might be genuine, rational people who do not like them and do no accept their ideas. They can't believe that people of Crimea or Donbass actually want to separate, they still think that they are all either terrorists or Russian agents.

This latest episode demonstrates the whole situation rather well:

You can see the Russians, you can see the Ukrainians, and you can see the actual clash of ideas.

[craigt3365]

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[lovetotravel]

Fantasy land.

That's the problem with post-Maidan Ukraine - they can't possibly comprehend that there might be genuine, rational people who do not like them and do no accept their ideas. They can't believe that people of Crimea or Donbass actually want to separate, they still think that they are all either terrorists or Russian agents.

This latest episode demonstrates the whole situation rather well:

You can see the Russians, you can see the Ukrainians, and you can see the actual clash of ideas.

RT has zero credibility, as does UT. You might as well be listening to Fox News. Same, same, same.

[BATHIK]

Wasn't a question of credibility, just an illustration of what we are dealing with here.

The eyes on that Ukrainian executive producer are really something. She isn't some whackjob out of the woods either, Ukraine Today is their brand new state sponsored propaganda news channel, hence the invitation to introduce themselves on RT, and they introduced themselves, didn't they?

[konying]

It's not just Svoboda and Right Sector, even "moderate" Ukrainians have gone fully genocidal.

Check out this article, it's very long but it's one of the best reads on the situation I have ever seen, far better than endless "they are nazis, nor they are not, yes they are, too" arguments.

The writer Keith Gessen is of course an accomplished writer of fiction and about real life politics, the latter almost always Russian/Soviet. For a guy born in the Soviet Union he has absolute mastery over the English language (Harvard etc). He needs however to work on fully recognizing the difference between fiction and real life politics and their implications beyond Russia/Eurasia.

Which is to say Gessen needs to work profoundly on his attitude Russians have no apologies or regrets to state for (the 74 years of) Stalinism and the USSR. Strange that Konstantin "Keith" Gessen is firm to say Germany did indeed need to apologize profusely and extensively for its 12 years of Nazism but that Russia basically gets a free pass on its police state Soviet era, instead perhaps to apologize a little bit at some unspecified time distant (after everyone affected by it all has transited the Pearly Gates).

When Gessen says Putin is Putin he may as well be saying Stalin was Stalin.

Oh, Gessen does say that too.

My god.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/discussions/audio-video/foreign-affairs-focus-on-books-keith-gessen-on-russias-soviet-le

Of course everything and anything including everyone and anyone is wrong because they oppose US views?

Only US knows the truth , while the rest of the world are idiots?

Try to open your eyes a little and try quoting or linking something else besides US media and propaganda

[konying]

Fantasy land.

That's the problem with post-Maidan Ukraine - they can't possibly comprehend that there might be genuine, rational people who do not like them and do no accept their ideas. They can't believe that people of Crimea or Donbass actually want to separate, they still think that they are all either terrorists or Russian agents.

This latest episode demonstrates the whole situation rather well:

You can see the Russians, you can see the Ukrainians, and you can see the actual clash of ideas.

RT has zero credibility, as does UT. You might as well be listening to Fox News. Same, same, same.

Because it opposes mainstream propaganda? Or offers another point of view?

[lovetotravel]

Wasn't a question of credibility, just an illustration of what we are dealing with here.

The eyes on that Ukrainian executive producer are really something. She isn't some whackjob out of the woods either, Ukraine Today is their brand new state sponsored propaganda news channel, hence the invitation to introduce themselves on RT, and they introduced themselves, didn't they?

I watched that video also. I saw it as a screw up by RT. It was an interview of the UT producer by the RT. I could hear feedback, missing video, etc. Definitely a screw up on the part of RT and the producer just went on with her point of view. Which is what a lot of world agree with. Other than viewers of RT.

Then the RT went on and on about this. They are totally out of it.