Asian suspects raped English tourist

[jackspade]

Have they stated if they found DNA from one person, or multiple? There must have been more than one person involved in this crime.

That has been established. According to all recent reports at least three people were involved. I would say 4. David appeared to be a tall and strong lad. It would take at least two Asian men to overcome him and drag him to the sea where he was allegedly drowned.

We must take all research into account. According to statistics it only takes 1.3 asian men to drag a Tall and Strong Lad into the sea if one of the 1.3 asian men involved has samurai blood. Has the DNA been tested for samurai blood?

Edited September 21, 2014 by jackspade

[Baerboxer]

I was a copper for 35 + years and I'm totally gobsmacked at the way the Thai Police have/are handling this. They appear to go public with every bit of information they acquire, without holding anything in reserve (having an Ace up their sleeve)to counter bogus alibis, red-herrings etc.

Do the general public NEED to know EVERY intimate detail ?

Serious question: Do the RTP go through ANY type of training or are they just given a uniform, a gun and told to go out there and be seen?

If I had performed my duties the way the RTP do, I would be ashamed to admit that I was once a Police Officer.

I AM DISGUSTED WITH, NEEDLESS TO SAY, THE INCIDENT BUT ALSO THE PROFESSIONALISM OF BOTH THE POLICE AND THE MEDIA.

I've got family on my wifes side who became a police officer a year back and the training they get is way below any standard in the western world. Even security companies in the west gets better training.

Which areas of training are you specifically referring to?

Some constables in the UK have poor knowledge of the actual laws they are supposed to be enforcing for instance, IME. The standards in rural and holiday parts of Spain, Portugal, Greece have standards of policing, including training, that I would not put on a par with the French, German and most British Forces,

Maybe it was the area he trained in, or his ability to absorb the training (do disrespect intended) that you noticed.

UK security companies, some very large with big operations outside the UK, have not been covered in glory over recent years, thanks to some very poor performances. Much of this appears to be down to recruiting unsuitably qualified or capable people, poor training, poor management and supervision and poor wages.

The RTP and Thai security companies could no doubt benefit from better training, pay, motivation and management - but then so could many in the West. They may be judged better, but are far from being high performers (as a generalization) themselves.

[BangkokHank]

Sorry I still don't believe only two Thai sorry Asian men could do this to David who is around 6 2 or 3 I would suggest. Whilst also subduing Hannah. David is fit and quite muscular and would have done some damage to whoever has attacked him Coming at him from the side in the dark with a lump of wood may do it. But he would have had the ability to at least keep an oversight of two men. More than two certainty rings true for me.

Also in my experience Thai s will do these types of "follow ups" after losing face but always in gangs of 4 or 5. They know they are small and targeting a large farang guy would prepare them to have as many friends or family as they could round up.

Your theory that a local lost face and had to call in re-enforcements is interesting. It would certainly be worth somebody(except local Koh Tao poice!) checking the cellphone records of all calls sent/received on the island and in particular in the south Sairee vicinity between 1am and 5am on Koh Tao assuming such a task is possible. There may have been a flurry of calls as the murderer called his mates to propose his plan.

This is an excellent idea. The best one I have heard so far, in fact. Now all we have to do is find a way to suggest this to the Thai police - without causing them to lose face for not having thought of it themselves.

[ramrod711]

Or when he does it gets wiped -

ok without saying it-

Let me hint-

Guns - hostage

Think Bank and hostages having sympathy for the robbers holding them.

Then go Nation -

Again

Get it ?

Not hard to figure .

But lets stick to the topic which is they aint getting the helicopter .

It was a Thai!!! ….no escape.

Fred Flinstone, now I get it. What you are saying is that you wanted to make a political statement in a thread about a tragic rape and double murder. So you went about it in an indirect cowardly fashion, hoping that you wouldn't have your off topic criticism of the Junta removed. You are so smooth, and such a tool. Be a man, have something to say, say it directly.

[pasak]

At some point, given that no one put a gun to anyone's head to force anyone to live here, the question does need to be asked, 'Why not leave?"

Life overall in a nanny state country back home would be even worse, and other SE Asian countries are worse. That and/or having dependants. It's ok to vent on a forum from time to time.

Societies with a high level of education and social care do have their critics but overall those societies are more stable and more cogent than a poorly educated capitalist society.

Thailand is a society continually in crisis. Crises in the past have been borne out of economic or political malfunction but I believe that in the future the problems will be largely social.

I went to a party at a local school two days ago. There was no evidence whatsoever of the pupils' scholastic or creative achievements. No play, no artwork, no speeches, nothing. The evening started with dancing to nauseous music, aged 3-5, then the same, age 6-9, then 10-13 etc etc. This was interspersed with hired dancers, dancing to tinny, high volume Louk Toong music. There were so many invitees that they had erected large screens and projected images from the stage onto them. The cameraman was constantly zooming in on the performers' private parts. What sort of message does that send to the kids? Kids of 3+, though they could hardly manage it and seemed innately concerned as to why they should be doing it, were encouraged to swing their hips and kiss each other.

A fat four year old boy scrambled across a dinner table on all fours to get to the dish in the middle, then retreated to stuff his face and chuck the remnants on the ground. His elders did not reprimand him or even notice him. There was little conversation at the table, just blank stares.

Anything demanding more thought would have been considered too serious.

I am currently managing a resort, unpaid and as a favour to the Thai owner. Thai groups come and go. What most of them have in common is that they want dancing and karaoke, whisky and grub, not much else. Hardly anyone is not bold enough to grab the mike and let rip a cat's chorus. There's no quiet intellectual discussion. Afterwards the place is strewn with litter and empty bottles. Not many guests think of putting their rubbish in the bins provided.

None of this instills a feeling that this society is going anywhere. On the contrary it is floundering and noone has the will or motivation to stop the rot.

The traumatic double murder and rape on Koh Tao is yet another in a long line of shocking murders and rapes that we have seen over the years in Thailand. Nothing changes and nor will it with the way kids are educated and brought up across large swathes of the country.

I hope the family and friends of the victims will find closure, sooner rather than later. As for the relatives of past victims of Thai rape and murder, some of whom have come to post recently on this forum, I hope the scars you bear are somehow reconciled. A civilized society gives every assistance within its power to help its bereaved achieve that.

Edited September 21, 2014 by pasak

[Number 3]

Sorry I still don't believe only two Thai sorry Asian men could do this to David who is around 6 2 or 3 I would suggest. Whilst also subduing Hannah. David is fit and quite muscular and would have done some damage to whoever has attacked him Coming at him from the side in the dark with a lump of wood may do it. But he would have had the ability to at least keep an oversight of two men. More than two certainty rings true for me.

Also in my experience Thai s will do these types of "follow ups" after losing face but always in gangs of 4 or 5. They know they are small and targeting a large farang guy would prepare them to have as many friends or family as they could round up.

Your theory that a local lost face and had to call in re-enforcements is interesting. It would certainly be worth somebody(except local Koh Tao poice!) checking the cellphone records of all calls sent/received on the island and in particular in the south Sairee vicinity between 1am and 5am on Koh Tao assuming such a task is possible. There may have been a flurry of calls as the murderer called his mates to propose his plan.

This is an excellent idea. The best one I have heard so far, in fact. Now all we have to do is find a way to suggest this to the Thai police - without causing them to lose face for not having thought of it themselves.

Hotel staff on that night would have had to have heard something as well. Guests would not know how to contact police but bets are some did call the front desk to report what they heard. Front desk managers should have been reporting or trying to call the police station. I m sure the police didn't pick up or the police said to call back at 10am when the station opened. I d check call records from the hotels along that strip as well. The police won't appear in the best light here but there's no hope that no one or only David heard anything.

[sprq]

I guess haplo group O was found in the Y DNA. They should be able to narrow that down. But so far it means perpetrator is most likely from the area spanning from southern China and Philippines to Southern Thailand and Eastern Burma.

Yeah, the use of that additional term is a bit weird. They should just have said "Asian."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid

No, they definitely shouldn't. Using the word "Asian" is hopelessly wrong, since it in effect covers everybody from Turkey to Japan. Mongoloid is correct. Look at Wikipedia: Mongoloid is the term for the general physical type of some or all of the populations of East Asia, Central Asia, Southeast Asia, Siberia, the Arctic, parts of the Americas and the Pacific Islands, and small parts of South Asia. Individuals within these populations often share certain associated phenotypic traits, such as epicanthic folds and neoteny. In terms of population, it is the most widely distributed physical type, constituting over a third of the human species.

The vast majority of Mongoloid people are found in East Asia and Southeast Asia, and include Thais. In other words, Thais are possible perpetrators of this crime, and Europeans (Caucasians) are not.

Edited September 21, 2014 by sprq

[Tham1]

Maybe he could get a little more definitive results from the world expert analysts compared to the local staff who have neither the depth of training, experience or equipment. It bemuses me that Thais do not understand how far they are behind the world scientifically.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Does it also bemuse you that Thailand has a university in the top 50 for pharmacology and social science (that's the top 0.2% in the world), top 100 for medicine, life science, bio-medicine and chemical engineering and top 150 for chemistry and earth science? That is out of all the 22,000 universities in the world. Do you have a degree from a world class university?

If they are so advanced why are they not in the forefront of inventions and discoveries because I have not noted many local Thai's trailblazing - have you?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Good point...How many Thais have won a Nobel Prize?

and I'm just putting this out there....

can anyone name ONE major contribution to the advancement of civilization/medicine/technology that has been pioneered by the Thai people? It's a question, if there is one, I'd love to know.....

Also, before coming to Thailand, I had never heard of any Thai universities being recognized as top tier...maybe in the region of Southeast Asia, but certainly not on a global scale

LOL Nobel prize, that's a good one. As for major contributions from Thais - Didn't they invent a sword, muay Thai, Siamese twins and a short time?

[ScotBkk]

I really deep down have great difficulty in understanding people of your ilk. Thai apologists are people who vent their disgust on their own kind ..... very strange indeed ..

ScotBkk:

I don't know what you mean by the term: 'Thai apologist.'

Is defending someone who you think is being unfairly criticized being an 'apologist?' I have presented an objective basis for my defense of the Thai police's performance. For me, the word 'apologist' suggests someone who blindly tries to defend something which doesn't deserve to be defended. I don't think that is the case here.

I do know, however, what the term "ethnocentric" means.

Ethnocentric: "holding the belief that one's own cultural tradition or racial group is superior to all others."

I think there are plenty of people on this forum - - like you - - who think it is their perogative to endlessly fault-find and critique Thais, Thai culture, Thai intelligence, Thai competency, Thai 'you-name-it' who are far more guilty of ethnocentric if not outright racist thinking than I will ever be guilty of being a Thai apologist. Since when is showing awareness, sensitivity and respect for cultural differences being an 'apologist?' Since when is the purpose of travel to criticize anything which doesn't meet our expectations?

We may share English as our mother tongue, but once you move beyond that I'm not sure how much we have in common. I feel more at home here than I ever felt living in the US, and a big part of my reason for moving here was to get away from people who think they are innately superior to other people.

I can appreciate that Thailand may not be everyone's cup of tea. But if it isn't, the solution isn't to endlessly bellyache about it in cyberspace. The solution is to go somewhere else where you feel more at home. That's what I did when I moved here. Maybe you should do the same and head back home.

Who has been rattling your cage ....... How did you manage to make so much out of so little. You take umbrage at my post even though what the other 95% are saying in the same mold? Get a grip of yourself mate. I am not sacking everyone to keep you happy......... same old song eh""" go home ... Laughable mate !!

[socrates28]

Maybe he could get a little more definitive results from the world expert analysts compared to the local staff who have neither the depth of training, experience or equipment. It bemuses me that Thais do not understand how far they are behind the world scientifically.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Does it also bemuse you that Thailand has a university in the top 50 for pharmacology and social science (that's the top 0.2% in the world), top 100 for medicine, life science, bio-medicine and chemical engineering and top 150 for chemistry and earth science? That is out of all the 22,000 universities in the world. Do you have a degree from a world class university?

If they are so advanced why are they not in the forefront of inventions and discoveries because I have not noted many local Thai's trailblazing - have you?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Good point...How many Thais have won a Nobel Prize?

and I'm just putting this out there....

can anyone name ONE major contribution to the advancement of civilization/medicine/technology that has been pioneered by the Thai people? It's a question, if there is one, I'd love to know.....

Also, before coming to Thailand, I had never heard of any Thai universities being recognized as top tier...maybe in the region of Southeast Asia, but certainly not on a global scale

I think you will find with a bit of research that the King is responsible for several inventions to do with helping it rain during droughts ....

[Thai at Heart]

"If u don't like it,go home", should be the same as Godwin's law.

It is actually a very Thai solution to complaints and to hear foreigners parroting it is quite humorous really.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[Wilsonandson]

Nearly one week after these horiffic murders and still no definitive leads. Someone is definitely covering all angles to make sure this stays unsolved. Been reading TV from the start of this terrible crime. You all are as shocked ask am . We all want closure for the families of the victims and to understand why this could happen on a tiny island with no previous murders. Keep pressing for answers as many view TV news as a reliable source of info. My heart goes out to the victims families and friends, RIP young lady and young man. Heaven has 2 more angels.

[Mackie]

Slowly but surely the investigation is moving forward. I would like to see a man named Matt come forward. In addition that shirtless Asian guy running is probably the crucial witness in order to solve this puzzle. From my point of view, he has either witnessed the crime or has been part of the gang who committed the crime. Someone must know who that person is.

DNA links two Asians to Thai murders as police say male victim may have tried to stop sex attack

http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/20/thai-murders-final-moments-of-british-backpackers-before-they-were-murdered-on-thai-beach-caught-on-cctv-4876291/

...Royal Thai Police recently released 13 suspects, including two childhood friends of Mr Miller, after DNA evidence found on Miss Witheridge’s body and on a cigarette butt did not match that belonging to those in custody.

Thai police are thought to have asked for assistance from British police to acquire DNA samples from an English man named only as ‘Matt’ who joined Miss Witheridge late on the night of 14 September.

They are also said to be hunting a topless man seen running away from Sairee beach that night...

Edited September 21, 2014 by Mackie

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Just enhance image and you got him. But you knew that already.

Well all I can tell you is send that piece of shit cctv image to the FBI. DNA and Blurry People are their meat and potatoes. We all have seen Thai robbery subjects on far more blurred cctv footage from a small gold shop and they seem to get their man, even when the blurred subject is wearing a motorcycle helmet. But they seem to be dumbfounded and falter when it is a Farang. I guess gold is a better motivator.

[artodeeto]

I know this is a common style, but couln't help notice the resemblance.

http://imgur.com/XtZcYhr

Be careful with that , a lot of young thais has that kind of haircut....

Yes, I know it is a common haircut, but how many of the locals on Koh Tao have that style?

Edited September 21, 2014 by artodeeto

[Paulzed]

Well after reading this, I am sure that the police General in charge of this investigation, will infact step down as the officer in charge and hand over the investigation to the Thai visa Crime Scene Investigators (TVCSI) to quickly rap up this investigation and have an arrest and conviction before the final commercial break.

[Neeranam]

This case has been blown out of all proportion. Murders happen all over the world even in the likes of the USA there are huge blunders - look at OJ Simpsons one.

The DNA suggested Mongoloid, this is a genetic thing which will be useful for catching the murderers.

[PaPiPuPePo]

Cambodia is way more dangerous than Thailand, you can get away with murder much more easily there. Heck its a country where you could bribe the army to use a bazooka.

You just flapping your jaws. I stay in both and the main crimes here are petty thief. You have more foreigners die from homicides in Pattaya, in a month, than die by homicide in the entire Kingdom of Cambodian in a year. Unsolicited nonsense. There are more military grade ordinance fired at civilians in Thailand than the number of bazooka rounds fired at haystacks. I rather mourn a haystack.

Thanks for pointing that out. There's too much unjustified, knee-jerk disparagement of Cambodia in Thailand, I've noticed expats pick up and parrot the nasty things Thais say about their neighbours.

I've talked to many Khmers over the years mainly because IME they are very warm and friendly and I'm curious about their experience; they've all seemed like hard-workers and very mellow, even meek. I think they're aware of their precarious situation, aware the Thais really look down on them and only tolerate them as low-wage workers, and so IMO it's pretty unlikely a Khmer worker on the island would do something like this.

Thai mafia types like the ones I've seen on Koh Tao, on the other hand, I can easily see having done something like this. I've spent some time in Thailand, not a new-comer, and have heard many stories, and plan to return to KT for more diving instruction, but feel like I have had blinders removed about these locals and will be much, much more cautious. I spent a month there last year walking alone every night up the road from Sairee to my GH near the cliffs, getting passed by numerous locals on bikes. I won't do that again.

[PaPiPuPePo]

I thought people came to Thailand and choose to live here because they like it here.

Silly me.

The amount of Thai-bashing on this thread is breath-taking and truly mesmerizing.

It's pretty obvious that the old adage, "Some people aren't happy unless they have something to complain about" is applicable to many posters on this thread.

The question "Why not leave?" is a legitimate one. I keep posing the question, not because I want to shut anyone up, but because it seems like it would make the world a better place if people were where they were happiest.

How come no one wants to answer this question????

It's important to remember that not everyone is in a situation where they can just up and leave....a lot of people have jobs, family and roots here and aren't simply retirees who have decided they want to sail into the sunset of their lives by hanging out in Thailand...I'm sure that plenty of people who complain about Thais/Thailand on this forum would leave at the first chance they had, but as I said, it isn't that easy for lots of us.....it's not as if these people wake up and think "well, I could go home, but I'd rather just stay in Thailand and complain about it." There are so many different walks of life on this forum with so many different stories....as I said before, some don't have the choice or ability to wake up tomorrow and say "that's it, I'm headed somewhere else" I'm one of those, believe me I am making plans and figuring out how I can leave this place for good for greener pastures, but it is easier said then done.

Agreed. Been here for a very long time .

The retiree is a new phenomena of the last 15 years some where here as young men and have had families ,businesses here, learn the language , read the newspapers and more fully understand Thai society.. The more you understand the more you disrespect it.

I would like to move on because there are too many foreigners here now compounded with the deterioration of Thai society as well.

The guys who come on here and say there is too much thai bashing are correct , but I am sure they have no real idea of how Thailand really is because they live on the outside as do most farangs who come here later in life and just live a bit of a bubble.

I was driving a bike in Phuket with an American guy we were stopped by 5 Thais with rocks who wanted money because the American had picked up this girl and he had no idea he had to pay . He paid ..the lady who ran the bungalow told us Thailand can be a violent place especially in the south.. The year 1978.

There were more than us , secondly they had weapons ..sound familiar!!

It was obvious this incident was Thai related. The police knew it, the locals knew long term farangs would also have known it.

There is a lot wrong with Thailand ..infact they could learn a lot from the west..

I am critical but this is my home and it's not because one is unhappy but I want a better society for my children, why does Thai bashing having to equate with someone being unhappy .

Any foreigner who comes on here and says how wonderful it is has to be looked at with a jaundice eye.. Probably not been here long, found company etc..doesn't do much, doesn't have to deal with Thai institutions etc.. Let's the wife do everything, probably doesn't even know how to pay the bills !!

Your premise is therefore wrong.. And this why don't you go home crap borders on childish arrogance..

Well put. Thailand is IMO pretty screwed up in many ways but unfortunately so are a lot of places. So it's pretty easy to find a target near or far to vent on.

I can say from 10 years experience living elsewhere in Asia that among long-term expats, there's an assimilation that occurs where you don't say anything bad about the host country, because the locals never do or allow it. That's compounded by the financial factors, so that any criticism is met with "love it or leave it" by long-timers, or for that matter folks still in the honeymoon phase (6 mos. to many years depending). Expats can get worse than Thais/Japanese/Chinese in this regard.

[paddyjenkins]

Yes,but the uk police wouldn't give out false information,false hopes for the families,nor would they describe the injuries in quite such graphic detail.

....

Can people imagine some grisly murder and rape in the UK of some foreign tourists, with the UK police stating that no British person would ever do something so evil and thus exclude all British people from the investigation, focusing their investigation solely upon foreigners?

If they did, imagine the outcry, imagine the national shame. The police responsible would be immediately fired and attacked in the media.

Here in Thailand, well, it's another story isn't it. Tells you something doesn't it, says quite a lot.

Edited September 21, 2014 by paddyjenkins

[Credo]

There has been a lot of talk about the 'shared' cigarette and the DNA on it. The cigarette may have been taken from her or she may have been told to light it and then given to him. It doesn't mean she voluntarily shared a cigarette with her killer.

[metisdead]

A post containing a Royal reference has been removed. Other off topic and nonsense posts have been removed as well as the replies.

[lucaswallachia]

David's body was naked with the clothes strewn around, so he either was stripped by the murders, skinny dipping, or having sex with Hannah.

[timewilltell]

This case has been blown out of all proportion. Murders happen all over the world even in the likes of the USA there are huge blunders - look at OJ Simpsons one.

The DNA suggested Mongoloid, this is a genetic thing which will be useful for catching the murderers.

I think you have no sense of proportion.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[Richard W]

eh... your stats show he worked on 1 million murders in toronto ? my my tough town :-)

My Uncle was a forensic detective in Toronto for 25 years, he is here right now...I ran this story by him and he said in 99.99999% of cases he has seen if there is a murder/rape the two crimes are committed by the same person..

You have confused a stated percentage for a case count.

One can determine a minimum case count from a correctly rounded percentage. For example, 17% implies a minimum sample size of 6. The arithmetic can be more complicated, e.g. for 29%.

[thairay]

i am shocked no one is blaming the russians as the mongols were there and surely left some dna behind

[sydneyjed]

Only in Thailand will they disclose every nook and cranny / every intimate detail about an individual and the autopsy(even before the official coroners report has been released!)and completely strip every ounce of dignity and respect out of a human being by releasing DNA 'evidence' !Incredibly the real answers everyone is waiting for are seldom answered!

[PaPiPuPePo]

Well put. Thailand is IMO pretty screwed up in many ways but unfortunately so are a lot of places. So it's pretty easy to find a target near or far to vent on.

I wanted to edit this right away: should have written "there are a number of screwed-up things going on." Every society has its positives and negatives. I do think there are some very serious problems in Thailand but for what my opinion's worth, not much, a lot of places that have gone from agricultural to more or less modern quickly seem to be having a bumpy ride of it, to put it mildly.

[belg]

dna the whole island, so if the culprits have any relatives left or right...

[belg]

Just enhance image and you got him. But you knew that already.

Well all I can tell you is send that piece of shit cctv image to the FBI. DNA and Blurry People are their meat and potatoes. We all have seen Thai robbery subjects on far more blurred cctv footage from a small gold shop and they seem to get their man, even when the blurred subject is wearing a motorcycle helmet. But they seem to be dumbfounded and falter when it is a Farang. I guess gold is a better motivator.

one blurry picture and pixels

might be less blurry on other places on the next

with some specialist software, the image can be filtered and cleaned

not only CSI on tv