UK MPs to vote on recognising Palestine as a state

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed. Again, the topic is Palestine.

[Loptr]

Israel has no right whatsoever to be in Palestine, period! it is an illegal occupation, lest not forget that Hamas was voted in to power by the Palestinian people, it is Israel that portrays them as terrorists using there zionist propaganda.

Define Palestine. It's unclear from your rant whether you are a river to the sea man, or not (at least openly).

Palestine = the entire region ceded to Israel by proclamation in 1948...

Here;s a map from 1947 to refresh your memory...

[Jingthing]

I didn't ask you ... and I don't really get exactly what you are saying either based on your phrasing.

Whatever you're saying, it's just an opinion.

My bigger issue is that Israel demonizers are often unclear about whether they consider ALL of Israel occupied or just West Bank and possibly Gaza.

To suggest the West Bank is occupied is a defensible position. To suggest Tel Aviv is occupied is another level.

If ALL of Israel is considered occupied then they are clearly in the river to the sea camp, representative of the majority of Palestinians now.

In any case, with any potential two state agreement borders will indeed need to be defined and that of course is always going to be a major area of dispute.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[7by7]

From a very popular Palestinian news facebook site, again revealing the TRUE feelings/long term intensions of the Palestinian masses (river to the sea):

10410910_781812298562340_3899134348666421045_n.jpg

The caption says:

Night photo of occupied TEL AVIV inside Palestine

https://www.facebook.com/QudsN/photos/a.119620728114837.22171.119605611449682/781812298562340/?type=1

Picture says 1000 words, eh?

Ah, someone posts it on Facebook; must be true, then!

(In case you suffer from Sheldon Cooperism; that's sarcasm!)

[Jingthing]

No, I posted a scientific poll showing the point. The facebook picture was just amplification of the results of that poll.

I really don't understand why it's so hard to believe that the "River to the Sea" goal is hugely popular among Palestinians.

Heck, if I was Palestinian, I'd probably feel the same way.

I DO understand why many Palestinian supporters want to deny it though!

The bottom line is "River to the Sea" and two state solution are not compatible.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[simple1]

OK, didn't research the timing of the poll, though, in my opinion, the same issues apply.

...

You suggested the clear majority support for "river to the sea" goals was caused by the recent Gaza war. But when caught out when it is shown such hard core Palestinian attitudes of total denial of the right of Israel to EXIST preceded that war, you simply don't have any response. Fascinating.

The results of that poll should be clear enough to reasonable people who aren't bending over backwards to make excuses for the clear Palestinian (and Iranian, etc.) goal of ending ALL of Israel, of not really accepting her existence, now or ever.

Yes personally, I can see there are good arguments and also national self interest for Israel to take more risks to try harder to bring about peace. But realistically, I can totally understand the reluctance and total lack of trust regarding ACTUAL Palestinian goals. Not the sugar coated PR some of their leaders push internationally, but the real political will on the ground among the people.

Why negotiate the end of your existence they might ask, and it is a really good question?

BTW, as I've said before, I ALSO understand the lack of trust from the Palestinian side regarding Israel's policies.

Frankly, nobody here (or probably anywhere) really has any quick and easy solution to this that will satisfy both sides. And so it goes.

I have already confirmed I made an error in not understanding the timeline of the poll, but at the same time the principal of my thoughts remain. Kindly do not infer that I am deliberately trying to misinform.

I have no doubt that many would have a desire for the destruction of the State of Israel.

My thinking was just maybe there is a glimmer of hope. I trust this time you will comprehend the context of my using the word 'conjecture'; as I said...

It is conjecture, but recognition of ‘Palestine’ by the Israelis, over time, should lead to a softening of attitudes by the general population. The rebuilding of the economy, housing and infrastructure would influence attitudes; on the downside the regime is very corrupt. Hopefully the corruption will fuel resentment against Hamas and bring about change in political leadership when elections are re-scheduled.

Edited October 19, 2014 by simple1

[Jingthing]

For Israel there is no assurance at all that a stronger, richer Palestine would change their tune about river to the sea, and by that time, they might have the chance to actually achieve that. So if Palestinians are serious about wanting peace and serious about ONLY wanting a separate state, the part of about DEMILITARIZATION is important to any chance of any agreement (slim as it is). In my opinion, I think the Palestinians mostly want to end ALL of Israel just as Iran does ... and the two state ploy of SOME of their leaders is just that, a TACTIC so they can gain power to hopefully better be able to win their real goal ... LATER. No of course they are nowhere near that capability now, but honest observers can't help but understand why Israel would work so that they NEVER do. BTW, in the last war, with Iron Dome, those thousands rockets from Gaza which Israel demonizers suggest are nothing would have been a serious military blow to Israel including their economy and morale. They would have definitely shut down the airport in Tel Aviv.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[7by7]

No, I posted a scientific poll showing the point. The facebook picture was just amplification of the results of that poll.

A 'scientific' poll conducted by the pro Israeli Washington Institute for Near East Policy!

Does PBS Know That "The Washington Institute" Was Founded By AIPAC? by M J Rosenberg

Professor Stephen Walt of Harvard had a great piece in Foreign Policy's blog this weekend which alluded to the fact that the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP or "The Washington Institute"), often featured on PBS and other news outlets as an independent source, is an American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) cutout.

Walt was responding to an attack on him by WINEP's current director, Robert Satloff, who indignantly went off on all those (especially Walt) who would even suggest that WINEP is an AIPAC front which invariably takes the Israeli point of view.

Walt is right. How do I know? Then an AIPAC employee, I was in the room when AIPAC decided to establish WINEP.......

POSTSCRIPT: It is worth noting that Martin Kramer, the academic from Israel who recommended suppressing the Palestinian birth rate to solve the "demographic problem" is a WINEP fellow.

Kramer's idea: cut food aid to Gaza and that will ultimately lead to fewer "superfluous [Palestinian] young men."

So, how scientific, let alone representative, is that poll? Not very, if at all, I would suggest.

I really don't understand why it's so hard to believe that the "River to the Sea" goal is hugely popular among Palestinians.

Heck, if I was Palestinian, I'd probably feel the same way.

I DO understand why many Palestinian supporters want to deny it though!

The bottom line is "River to the Sea" and two state solution are not compatible.

It may be popular among some Palestinians, and I, too, can understand why.

Just as I can understand why the obliteration of Palestine is popular among some Israelis and Israeli government supporters.

But the players on the Palestinian side, including Hamas, have abandoned this idea and have recognised the right of the Israeli state to exist.

Maybe were the Israeli government to do the same and recognise the right of the Palestinian state to exists some progress to a solution could be made.

At the very least it would show the rest of the world that Israel is serious in wanting a solution.

[bigjules007]

Israel has no right whatsoever to be in Palestine, period! it is an illegal occupation, lest not forget that Hamas was voted in to power by the Palestinian people, it is Israel that portrays them as terrorists using there zionist propaganda.

Define Palestine. It's unclear from your rant whether you are a river to the sea man, or not (at least openly).

When I say Palestine I mean the whole of Palestine.

If the rest of the world thought the same way as the zionist state of Israel, then the Italians could have a claim on the U.K considering that the Romans were there for so long, French might have a claim on Norway because there ancestors were from there and the Arabs could occupy Spain as they were there for 800 years.

TOTALLY illogical state of Israel.

[Scott]

Posts removed for a variety of reasons.

[Jingthing]

Go to any Palestinian political rally. What will you hear? River to the sea for days. That poll reflects reality.

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Edited October 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Israel has no right whatsoever to be in Palestine, period! it is an illegal occupation, lest not forget that Hamas was voted in to power by the Palestinian people, it is Israel that portrays them as terrorists using there zionist propaganda.

Define Palestine. It's unclear from your rant whether you are a river to the sea man, or not (at least openly).

When I say Palestine I mean the whole of Palestine.

If the rest of the world thought the same way as the zionist state of Israel, then the Italians could have a claim on the U.K considering that the Romans were there for so long, French might have a claim on Norway because there ancestors were from there and the Arabs could occupy Spain as they were there for 800 years.

TOTALLY illogical state of Israel.

Faulty logic. The Italians have a land called Italy, etc. The diaspora Jews had no modern state before Israel.

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[Jingthing]

You do realize Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years? So the motivation for Zionism is entirety rational. Other locations were considered such as part of Uganda but ultimately Israel was indeed the most ... logical.

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[Thorgal]

It is not surprising polls conclude the majority desire the removal of the State of Israel after the recent conflict, no political progression and the destruction (purely for punishment?) of civilian infrastructure. It is conjecture, but recognition of ‘Palestine’ by the Israelis, over time, should lead to a softening of attitudes by the general population. The rebuilding of the economy, housing and infrastructure would influence attitudes; on the downside the regime is very corrupt. Hopefully the corruption will fuel resentment against Hamas and bring about change in political leadership when elections are re-scheduled.

There are claims that 50 existing laws in Israel discriminate against Arabs, the response is this is not so, yet do not recall any counter ‘proving’ it is an erroneous claim. I would be interested in informed members’ opinion on the article below concerning recently enacted legislation.

New law dividing Christian, Muslim Arabs legalizes inequality

http://972mag.com/new-law-seeks-to-divide-christian-muslim-arabs/87705/

Yeah, sure thing, mate.

The survey was done June 15 - 17, 2014.

Project Cast Lead started July 8.

In case that wasn't clear, the survey was done BEFORE the recent flare up.

I think it's up to the Jews of Israel to decide about the validity of your optimistic so called conjecture. It's easy for an outsider to suggest they should risk it all and hope for the best from a people showing such opinions as shown in the survey. Any reasonable person can understand reluctance to trust (again from EITHER side).

On the legal situation of Arab Israel citizens, that's really off topic so I won't further comment nor am an expert on it. Except to say democracies are not perfect ... look at the situation of black people in the USA even with a black president, there remain major civil rights issues. So of course things are far from perfect for the Arab Israeli citizens. I don't see how that lack of perfection justifies the overall Palestinian "river to the sea" thing though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict

Operation Cast Lead started in 27th of December 2008 and finished on 18th of January 2009.

Where did you find it that it started on the 8th of July 2014 ?

Or did you mean Operation Protective Edge ?

Edited October 19, 2014 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

It is not surprising polls conclude the majority desire the removal of the State of Israel after the recent conflict, no political progression and the destruction (purely for punishment?) of civilian infrastructure. It is conjecture, but recognition of ‘Palestine’ by the Israelis, over time, should lead to a softening of attitudes by the general population. The rebuilding of the economy, housing and infrastructure would influence attitudes; on the downside the regime is very corrupt. Hopefully the corruption will fuel resentment against Hamas and bring about change in political leadership when elections are re-scheduled.

There are claims that 50 existing laws in Israel discriminate against Arabs, the response is this is not so, yet do not recall any counter ‘proving’ it is an erroneous claim. I would be interested in informed members’ opinion on the article below concerning recently enacted legislation.

New law dividing Christian, Muslim Arabs legalizes inequality

http://972mag.com/new-law-seeks-to-divide-christian-muslim-arabs/87705/

Yeah, sure thing, mate.

The survey was done June 15 - 17, 2014.

Project Cast Lead started July 8.

In case that wasn't clear, the survey was done BEFORE the recent flare up.

I think it's up to the Jews of Israel to decide about the validity of your optimistic so called conjecture. It's easy for an outsider to suggest they should risk it all and hope for the best from a people showing such opinions as shown in the survey. Any reasonable person can understand reluctance to trust (again from EITHER side).

On the legal situation of Arab Israel citizens, that's really off topic so I won't further comment nor am an expert on it. Except to say democracies are not perfect ... look at the situation of black people in the USA even with a black president, there remain major civil rights issues. So of course things are far from perfect for the Arab Israeli citizens. I don't see how that lack of perfection justifies the overall Palestinian "river to the sea" thing though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict

Operation Cast Lead started in 27th of December 2008 and finished on 18th of January 2009.

Where did you find it that it started on the 8th of July 2014 ?

Or did you mean Operation Protective Edge ?

Yes, that was an error. You are correct. Thanks for the correction. Of course I meant to refer to Operation Protective Edge as you can see in the LINK.

On 8 July 2014, Israel launched Operation Protective Edge ...

Edited October 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

Thanks for your positive feedback !

[7by7]

Go to any Palestinian political rally. What will you hear? River to the sea for days. That poll reflects reality.

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Really?

How many Palestinian political rallies have you been to?

Can't hear that chant here.

Before anyone says that video is from a Muslim source ( I couldn't find any mainstream media videos as long) and that the demonstration was full of Muslim extremists and western liberals; have a look at the guys at 8:20.

That WINEP poll reflects the 'reality' of it's paymaster; the American Israel Public Affairs Committee; the 'reality' of the propaganda arm of the Israeli government.

[Jingthing]

Truth in posting please.

The rally held by a group with this logo:

Note well. That is a map of ALL of Israel.

Do you get the message?

I do. The real agenda is no more Israel.

Just Palestine including all of Israel.

The real message is this group, like pro Palestinian groups in general, do NOT recognize the right of Israel to exist in ANY borders.

Note their policy statement -- right of return for Palestinians into Israel.

Only a total moron doesn't understand what that means -- the end of Israel.

This group may be more subtle than some about their agenda, but it's totally clear.

River to the sea chants at:

7.37

13.21

17.24

How many Palestinian rallies have I been to? Not responding to personal troll baits, so just stop that.

Extremist ultra religious anti-Zionist Jews representing a tiny percentage of global Jewry, even a tiny percentage of ultra religious Jews ... are you joking? Why do Israel demonizers keep obsessing over this tiny minority? This group is openly and aggressively against the existence of Israel, from the beginning to now based on extremist fundamentalist RELIGIOUS reasons. Their numbers are very tiny. This is not news. It would be news if they had numbers. They don't and they never will.

WINEP -- judge for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy

According to The New York Times, the Institute has earned a reputation for solid scholarship, is committed to the peace process, and is supportive of Israel, a relationship with which it believes helps advance U.S. security interests.^[8] However, the Institute does not identify as "pro-Israel," saying "the moniker projects two false impressions—first, that the Institute does not value American interests above special pleading for a foreign power and second, that the Institute must be 'anti' others in the region (Palestinians, Arabs)." It adds:

This shorthand terminology perpetuates "old thinking" that views the Arab–Israeli conflict as the key dividing line in a region where the division between moderates versus radicals is a more accurate prism through which to understand local politics. On the personal level, this one-dimensional description of the Institute's quarter-century of research does a disservice to the many current and former United States government officials and military officers at the Institute over the years as well as the numerous Institute scholars from Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, Morocco and other Middle Eastern countries over the years who have undertaken impeccable research on a broad array of topics.

[9]

Edited October 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[7by7]

The map on the Palestine Solidarity Campaign logo is not of all Israel; it is of the whole of the geographical area of Palestine; which includes Israel.

Geographical; not political.

From their website

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) campaigns for peace & justice for Palestinians, in support of international law and human rights & against all racism. Help us to build a new mass anti Apartheid movement for Palestine.

All Palestinians, those inside Israel and those outside. So of course their logo includes Israel as well as the West Bank and Gaza.

Why would allowing people who have been forcibly ejected from their homes and made into refugees in a foreign country being allowed to return home mean the end of Israel?

But I will grant you that if they were allowed home and given full citizenship rights it may mean that Israel would become a multi faith state instead of a Jewish one; it may mean that Israeli Arabs would at last enjoy the full rights of Israeli citizens currently reserved for Jews only.

I'll give you the first two occasions when "From the river to the sea" is chanted in that video; two occasions totalling about 20 seconds out of a 21 minutes 34 seconds video (so short I missed them first time round!). If you can hear that chant at 17:24, your hearing must be a lot better than mine; sounds to me like the same as the main chant in the rest of the 21 minutes; "Free, free Palestine!"

But demonstrations of all kinds attract extremists; only a fool would deny that.

You say: "How many Palestinian rallies have I been to? Not responding to personal troll baits, so just stop that."
You made a definite statement; "Go to any Palestinian political rally. What will you hear? River to the sea for days." The question is in context and fair. Your response shows that the answer is "None."

So you believe that Hassidic Jews demonstrating against Israeli policy on Palestinians are "extremist ultra religious anti-Zionist Jews" and 'demonise' Israel? Your standard response whenever presented with facts on this subject you don't like.

WINEP; two sources, one from Wikipedia, possibly written by them; one written by a man who was there when WINEP was set up.

Who to believe?

The Wikipedia piece says "A group of American citizens created The Washington Institute..." No mention in the entire piece of AIPAC!

Why not?

Why hide the association?

Are you saying that the WINEP was not set up by and an arm of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee?

Are you saying that Rosenberg is lying?

[Jingthing]

Definitely worth a listen:

No, I'm not endorsing everything he says or the tone of it, but it's a good balance to the "River to the Sea" crowd.

Basically, I agree with the gist that it's totally obvious that the real long term goal of the Palestinians is definitely NOT a two state solution. They want to kick out the Jews ... period ... whenever, however they can, and yes, they're patient.

I also think Israel doesn't want the two state solution either, for complex reasons, but mainly based on the understanding of the real intentions of Palestinians.

A mess ... I see no answers.

I realize that a lot of people are idealistic about this and think these two groups can really live together in peace. Bless their hearts. I don't see it anytime soon.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Some indication of the Palestinians next step.

It involves a THREAT.

No surprise there.

As if the U.S. won't VETO in the U.N.

Of course the U.S. WILL veto.

Top Palestinian Authority official Saeb Erekat has threatened that if the US vetoed the PA’s bid to gain a United Nations-backed timetable for an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, they would apply for membership in hundreds of international bodies as citizens of an occupied state in its own right

...

PA President Mahmoud Abbas, as the leader of “the occupied Palestinian state,” would then demand that Israel fulfill all its obligations as an occupying power, Erekat added, hinting that the PA itself would cease to function as an administrative body, leaving Israel to pick up the sla

...

Palestinian statehood was given a boost this month after both Sweden and Britain made symbolic moves toward recognizing the state.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-official-warns-of-consequences-if-us-vetoes-un-bid/

Edited October 22, 2014 by Jingthing

[7by7]

So if Palestine is not a state in it's own right; what, in your opinion, is it?

Israel does occupy a significant proportion of Palestine, controls it's borders and ports in Gaza etc.

If that isn't acting as an occupying power; what is?

Nice use of hyperbole in capitalising 'THREAT' by the way.

A word used only by your source; the Times of Israel (no surprise there!). All the other media I can find use the word 'warn.'

[Ulysses G.]

There has never been an Arab state called Palestine and there are no agreed on borders for the proposed state. According to the Oslo Accords - agreed to by both parties - this all has to be worked out between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs before a state is created.

[Jingthing]

So if Palestine is not a state in it's own right; what, in your opinion, is it?

Israel does occupy a significant proportion of Palestine, controls it's borders and ports in Gaza etc.

If that isn't acting as an occupying power; what is?

Nice use of hyperbole in capitalising 'THREAT' by the way.

A word used only by your source; the Times of Israel (no surprise there!). All the other media I can find use the word 'warn.'

I endorse the correct use of the word threat.

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[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed. Continued off-topic discussion of Israel will result in suspension. The thread is about the UK's vote to recognize Palestine. Stay on topic please.