Pros/cons of registering for Thai citizenship

[QuantumMech]

Hi there, I'm almost 40 years old, born (and raised) in the US to a Thai mother and non-Thai father. My understanding is that I'm a Thai citizen, and can get a Thai birth certificate and passport if I want one. Is there any reason that I might not want one? I don't have any pressing reasons to want a Thai passport, other than making visits to Thailand a bit easier, and perhaps eventually retiring there? (Although at least at the moment, I don't see myself doing that). I guess it's an "if there's a chance it might be useful, and there's no downside, why not?" type of thing.

Also, if I do want to get a Thai passport, exactly what's required? I think the first step is getting a Thai birth certificate, and I've read http://www.thaiembdc.org/dcdp/?q=Registration_of_Birth and the birth certificate application form, but am still unclear on what's needed. Oh, it looks like the Thai version at http://www.thaiembdc.org/dcdp/?q=both/birth_certificate is more informative. BTW, the English version says "Remarks: If the child was born before 1st March, 1992 (B.E.2535)" without completing the rest of the sentence, but the Thai version doesn't seem to say anything about that. Anyone know if there's anything special about being born before 1992?

In any case, it sounds like I need a copy of my mom's house registration document or national ID card? She immigrated to the US around 50 years ago and is a naturalized US citizen, and no longer has any Thai documentation. If she first needs to get her documentation, how difficult is that? She was born in the 1940s in Chacheongsao. We're going to Thailand for a visit in the next few months, and if it's something relatively easy, perhaps she can get the documentation... but if it's a big hassle, I don't need the passport

[Mario2008]

There are no disadvantages that I see.

Step one would indeed be to apply for the Thai birth certificate with the help of your parents at the Thai embassy or general consulate for the area where you were born. At the same time you can apply for a Thai passport.

How easy It is for your mother to get the documents depends on the amphur where she was born and how well they have kept their records. The most important thing is her birth certificate, she must have at least a copy of it for her US citizenship application? if not it will be important that she has some family in the US that can vouch for her that she is indeed who she says she is.

Date of birth should not be significant in your case.

When that is arranged you will be registered and can enjoy the same rights as any other Thai, which include the right to own land in Thailand if you want to retire there.

[samran]

The main case for doing it now is your mum is still alive and it will be relatively easy for her to track down her documentation, which likely will be hand written in old ledgers.

On her next trip here you'll likely need to hire someone at the local office to dig through old files as my aunt, now residing in Australia but born in the early 1950s recently did. She's since got her ID card.

With your mum back on the books so to speak, it will be easy for you to get the Thai birth certificate via Washington dc.

If she is no longer with us, and you don't have access to her paperwork, you'll need to submit yourself to DNA testing with remaining relatives in Thailand to prove the link.

As for the relevance of 1992, not much for you, only to say that it was the date which effectively returned thai citizenship to those who may have married a foriegner and lost their Thai citizenship, and by consequence, returned Thai citizenship automatically to their children.

I was in the same boat as you, and despite being born many years before 1992, only got my Thai birth cerificste in 92 as a result of the law changes.

[QuantumMech]

Thanks for the information While my mom had her Thai documentation back in the '60s, they've been lost or thrown out over the years... the oldest documentation she has are her original US naturalization papers. So I guess we'll try to get copies of her Thai documents; hopefully that won't be too difficult. Does anyone have a link to a website with more details on how to do that? (Chachoengsao province, A. Phanom Sarakham) Thai language is fine.

Also, does anyone happen to know if her birth certificate is enough, or does she need a house registration or ID card too? I don't know anything about house registrations, and my mom's fuzzy about it too... she hasn't lived there in 50+ years; is she still registered somewhere? And http://www.thaiembdc.org/dcdp/?q=both/birth_certificate says, "หลักฐานทางราชการไทยของบิดา และ/หรือ มารดาที่มีสัญชาติไทย เช่น ทะเบียนบ้านหรือบัตรประจำตัวประชาชนไทยที่ระบุหมายเลข 13 หลัก พร้อมสำเนา", which I'd translate as something like "Thai government documentation of father and/or mother's Thai citizenship, such as house registration or ID card with 13-digit number." The "เช่น/such as" part makes it sound like there are other acceptable forms of documentation--is a birth certificate one of them?

[Mario2008]

This falls under DOPA, department of public affairs.

They have a website: www.dopa.go.th where you should be able to get some info. It also list contact details.

[ubonjoe]

You could also contact the Amphoe where she is registered to see if the will help by finding the registry before you get there. You can go to http://amphoe.com to find contact info for it.

[samran]

Thanks for the information While my mom had her Thai documentation back in the '60s, they've been lost or thrown out over the years... the oldest documentation she has are her original US naturalization papers. So I guess we'll try to get copies of her Thai documents; hopefully that won't be too difficult. Does anyone have a link to a website with more details on how to do that? (Chachoengsao province, A. Phanom Sarakham) Thai language is fine.

Also, does anyone happen to know if her birth certificate is enough, or does she need a house registration or ID card too? I don't know anything about house registrations, and my mom's fuzzy about it too... she hasn't lived there in 50+ years; is she still registered somewhere? And http://www.thaiembdc.org/dcdp/?q=both/birth_certificate says, "หลักฐานทางราชการไทยของบิดา และ/หรือ มารดาที่มีสัญชาติไทย เช่น ทะเบียนบ้านหรือบัตรประจำตัวประชาชนไทยที่ระบุหมายเลข 13 หลัก พร้อมสำเนา", which I'd translate as something like "Thai government documentation of father and/or mother's Thai citizenship, such as house registration or ID card with 13-digit number." The "เช่น/such as" part makes it sound like there are other acceptable forms of documentation--is a birth certificate one of them?

My mother had an ancient ID card and that was evidence enough for me in 92 to get a Thai birth certificate issued. It may be worth speaking directly to the embassy to see what they will accept.

The house registration system is simply the registered address of every that citizen. You don't actially have to live there.

Your mother will have a good idea of where she was born and where she grew up, so there certainly will be old paper records. Her parents and siblings details should be on the same register.

[QuantumMech]

Well, my mom and I didn't go to Thailand last year as planned, but we are definitely going this year So I'm looking into getting my papers again, and found something that seems a bit concerning. Here is a helpful document from the Thai Embassy at DC that explains what's needed to get a Thai birth certificate, and one of the required documents is คำร้องนิติกรณ์สำหรับขอสูติบัตร, which seems to be an affidavit of sorts that my mom would fill out. The bottom of it says "ขอรับรองว่าข้าพเจ้ามีสัญชาติไทย และยังมิได้เปลี่ยนสัญชาติหรือถือสัญชาติอื่น," which I'd translate as something like "I certify that I hold Thai citizenship, and have not naturalized or hold any other citizenship." But as I mentioned, my mom is a naturalized US citizen.

Any thoughts on this? I used the contact form on their website to ask for more details (I didn't specifically mention that sentence, but did say that my mom's a naturalized US citizen and no longer has her Thai documents), but I haven't heard back yet. And this page doesn't seem to mention that a dual-citizen parent can't get a Thai birth certificate for their child.

Thanks

[QuantumMech]

I'm in Thailand now, and my mom was able to get her Thai ID card surprisingly easily. They easily found her info in the computer and printed up a new house registration booklet with her as the ผู้อาศัย (and with nobody else in the booklet), then after getting the village ผู้ไหญ่ (who turned out to be her childhood friend's son) and her first cousin's daughter to be witnesses, they printed up her ID card. Then they checked her tabian baan booklet again, and changed her to be the เจ้าบ้าน (with a notation that the change was made according to คำร้องที่ 7711/2559, whatever that is... maybe it's because everyone else registered at that address has passed away?)

 

While at the amphoe office, we asked about getting me an ID too, and they said I should just bring my US birth certificate and a translation of it. Which seems a lot easier than the method listed on the Thai Embassy in Washington DC's website. I thought I was going to have to send my birth certificate to the embassy, so I didn't bring it with me to Thailand. But if I can get everything taken care of during this trip, that'd certainly be convenient. I've arranged for my birth certificate (which has already been authenticated by the US Dept of State) to be sent here, and will see if this method will actually work.

 

Any thoughts about whether I need the translation certified by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

Edited December 18, 2016 by QuantumMech

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, QuantumMech said:

While at the amphoe office, we asked about getting me an ID too, and they said I should just bring my US birth certificate and a translation of it. Which seems a lot easier than the method listed on the Thai Embassy in Washington DC's website. I thought I was going to have to send my birth certificate to the embassy, so I didn't bring it with me to Thailand. But if I can get everything taken care of during this trip, that'd certainly be convenient. I've arranged for my birth certificate (which has already been authenticated by the US Dept of State) to be sent here, and will see if this method will actually work.

 

Any thoughts about whether I need the translation certified by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

That looks to easy. If they do it it will be great for you.

I suggest you have the translation certified by the MFA.

[LivinLOS]

I would certainly do it as you never know when windows close.. 

 

I lost out on Australian citizenship by hereditary due to not knowing and missing the deadline by a few months. Other than USA which tax you worldwide more is usually better. 

[Issangeorge]

Good luck, sometimes things here are very fast and efficient, other times not. A lot depends on the particular office you are working with, sounds like you have a good one. To be on the safe side and prevent future problems I would get your birth certificate translation certified, then you will be put on your mother's house registration book, and be assigned an ID number, and then you will get an ID card which I believe is good for ten years. Once you get that you can apply for a Thai Passport.

Sent from my ASUS_T00J using Tapatalk

[thsxtreme]

I had a similar situation with me and my mom. I am also half Thai with a Thai mother and non thai father. My moms ID and passport expired around 1972 and they deleted her from the system. We had to get her a one year emergency temp. passport and when we went to Thailand she was able to get her ID card and while I was there They asked if I wanted to try to get my ID. I waited a year later which was last year. I brought my USA born abroad certificate and my thai birth certificate . Also I needed my moms divorce certificate translated. pictures of me and a family member then I had to get the head village guy to come to the  amphoe office. After about 3 interviews I was able to finally get my Thai ID. The Thai passport is very easy to get. All you need is your Thai ID card and thats pretty much it . I got my passport this year.

[QuantumMech]

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to get the MFA legalization--my flight back to the US is leaving tomorrow morning, and it wouldn't be ready in time. I decided to try at the amphoe anyway, but was turned down (unsurprisingly, but I thought there was a slight chance they'd do it despite the lack of legalization). That said, the guy there (palat amphoe, I think) was insistent that I just needed the MFA legalization (or one from an embassy in the US). I'm pretty sure I saw a page on some Thai government website that said that an embassy in the country of birth had to do the legalization; it couldn't be done by the MFA.

 

He also said that my mom had to be present to vouch for me (which seems to contradict thsxtreme's previous post where they were able to use pictures). My mom's getting old and she doesn't feel like making the trip from the US anymore, but she says she'll do it if needed.

 

In any case, I'm back to my original plan of getting a Thai birth certificate from the embassy in DC. Hopefully that'll go well :) And if so, I'll try for my ID card next time I'm in Thailand.

[QuantumMech]

A quick update: Got my Thai birth certificate last week, and am applying for a Thai passport. I was told that I can get the passport here in the US, but that the ID card and being added to the tabien baan have to be done at the amphoe office (which matches what I had understood from info I saw online). The Thai Embassy in Washington DC's mobile passport service is coming to my area in May, so hopefully I'll get my passport after that :)

[Arkady]

The significance of 1992 is that a new Nationality Act in that year amended the provision that proscribed that Thai nationality by descent passed only through the father, not the mother.  The wording was changed to "any Thai parent" instead of father and that was made retroactive.  Thai women did no have to give up Thai nationality when they married a foreigner before 1992 but they might have been obliged to do so by the other country to get foreign citizenship.  Thai women did automatically lose Thai nationality when married foreigners in the past but that was prior to the current 1965 Nationality Act. 

[QuantumMech]

Received my Thai passport from the embassy today. It sure is fancy, with the laser-punched photo, engraving, and other security features on the main page. US passports are boring by comparison! :) Apparently I don't have an ID number yet; it's blank on the passport. I was wondering if perhaps they'd assign me one when issuing the passport, but I guess I'll only get one when I go to the amphoe and apply for an ID card.

 

Any advice for my first trip to Thailand using the new passport? From what I've gathered from other threads, I should try to use the automatic gate in order to avoid dealing with an immigration officer, but if it doesn't work and the IO hassles me about entering with a blank passport, I should ask to speak with a supervisor.

 

And I guess I'll give more details on what I did to get my Thai birth certificate and passport. As mentioned in my first post, I was born in the US to a Thai mother and a non-Thai (Chinese) father. My mom didn't register my birth with the Thai embassy when I was born, so that was the first thing that needed to be done. I ordered a certified copy of my US birth certificate, then sent that to the Secretary of State of the state where I was born (Louisiana) for authentication. They attached a page in front of the birth certificate basically saying that the signature and seal on the birth certificate were authentic. Then I sent that to the US Secretary of State for authentication, and they attached another page to the front saying that the seal of the Louisiana Secretary of State's authentication page was authentic.

 

I (well, my mom, but I did most of the work) then sent the application for a Thai birth certificate to the Embassy in Washington DC along with the following documentation:

• Louisiana birth certificate with its two layers of authentication (plus a copy of all pages)
• an application for legalization (คำร้องนิติกรณ์สำหรับขอสูติบัตร) plus a copy
• a statement/affidavit with some information on my parents ("คำให้การของมารดา (กรณีบิดาเป็นชาวต่างชาติ)") plus a copy
• two recent passport-sized photos
• my mom's original Thai passport plus two copies of the main page
• a certified copy of my parents' marriage records plus a copy of it with a notarized statement from me saying that it's a true copy (apparently at least in Texas, a notary public can't make certified true copies of records such as birth/death/marriage/divorce certificates; I should've ordered two certified copies of the marriage records from the clerk of court, but the Thai embassy didn't say anything about my self-certification)
• my mom's original Thai ID card plus two copies
• my mom's blue tabien baan plus two copies

As I said in post #8 above, the คำร้องนิติกรณ์สำหรับขอสูติบัตร form has at the bottom something to the effect of "I certify that I hold Thai citizenship, and have not naturalized or hold any other citizenship," but my mom is a naturalized US citizen. I've heard that on some US immigration documents, there's a question to the effect of "Are you a terrorist (or Nazi)? Yes/No", where the point of the question isn't that they expect anyone to answer "Yes" to it, but that if someone answers "No", eventually naturalizes as a US citizen, and it's later found out that they lied on an immigration document, they could have their citizenship revoked. So just to be on the safe side, I didn't want my mom to sign a false certification which perhaps later might cause someone to decide that my Thai birth certificate was invalid--I drew a line through the "and have not naturalized or hold any other citizenship" part, just leaving the "I certify that I hold Thai citizenship" part. I expected the Embassy to say something about that, but they either didn't notice or didn't care.

 

What they did care about was something that seemed pretty trivial to me. My middle name is a romanization of a Chinese name, and like most Chinese names, it's two characters (e.g., the President of China's personal name is Jinping, made up of two characters, jin and ping). On my birth certificate, it was written as one word, but I've always written it with a hyphen separating the two characters (e.g., Jinping vs. Jin-ping). So I put the hyphenated version on the application, and the embassy apparently thought it was a big deal that my middle name on the Thai birth certificate application didn't exactly match the US one. And there was a similar issue with my dad's name--it was written inconsistently between my birth certificate and the marriage record; once with nothing separating the two parts, once with a hyphen between them, and once with a space. The embassy asked for a copy of my dad's passport, but I told them that my parents are divorced and I didn't have access to his passport. So they asked for a copy of the divorce decree; I was able to get that and email it to them (they didn't ask for a certified copy). They also wanted my middle name written with Thai letters—I had originally only given it in English and only supplied my first and last name in Thai.

 

Also, on the application form, in the spaces for mother and father's address in the US, I put the address from the US birth certificate, which was their address 40+ years ago. Apparently it's supposed to be their current address.

 

Finally, they sent "บันทึกการสอบปากคำ (กรณีขอให้ออกสูติบัตรให้กับบุตรซึ่งได้รับสัญชาติไทยย้อนหลัง บุตรเกิดก่อนปี พ.ศ.2535)" for my mom to fill out (I guess this is related to what Arkady mentioned in post #16), and a "Form for a notary public to notarize an applicant's signature". (They didn't need either physically mailed to them... I just emailed scans).

 

After all that, they emailed a scan of my Thai birth certificate and asked for us to look it over for any spelling errors or other problems. There was a minor error, which they corrected, then they mailed the original.

 

Then for the passport, I read through the instructions for the outreach service, emailed the application, the form for people who lost their old passport/old passport expired over a year ago/are applying for a passport for the first time, an my Thai birth certificate. They asked for some more documentation, including a scan of my dad's passport, but I said that I didn't have that readily available, but could probably get it if they really needed it. They replied saying that it's probably fine without his passport, so I emailed them scans of: my mom's ID card and passport, marriage record, my US passport and driver's license. When my appointment time came around, I showed up at the Thai temple where they were doing the mobile passport service and gave them the originals of all the documentation plus copies. The lady processing my application took my fingerprints and picture, and asked if I had my dad's passport or other ID. I said I didn't, and that over email, I was told it probably wouldn't be necessary. She said if I can get a copy of his passport, it'd probably be better... something about how the folks in Bangkok actually making the passport might hold things up without it; and that I could just email them a scan. So the next day I got my dad to email me a scan his US passport, which I then sent to the embassy. And a month later, I got my passport.

 

All in all, a pretty straightforward process. Now I just need to get my ID card next time I'm in Thailand :)

[ubonjoe]

25 minutes ago, QuantumMech said:

Received my Thai passport from the embassy today. It sure is fancy, with the laser-punched photo, engraving, and other security features on the main page. US passports are boring by comparison! :) Apparently I don't have an ID number yet; it's blank on the passport. I was wondering if perhaps they'd assign me one when issuing the passport, but I guess I'll only get one when I go to the amphoe and apply for an ID card.

You will get your Thai ID number when you are registered in a house book at an Amphoe.You will have to get info from them as to what will be required since it seems to vary from one to the other. You will certainly need your birth certificate. After you are registered in a house book you will be able to get your ID card.

[YetAnother]

On 10/20/2014 at 2:03 PM, Mario2008 said:

and how well they have kept their records.

vital; the amphoe i was married in, 18 years ago, cannot locate my original marriage certificate; computerized system in the meantime...

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

vital; the amphoe i was married in, 18 years ago, cannot locate my original marriage certificate; computerized system in the meantime...

You and your wife are the only ones that has a original marriage certificate. Not sure an Amphoe would even have a copy of it. They only keep the application, affirmation to permit to marry and etc in their files.

If you have a copy of your marriage certificate they will do a certified copy of it and attach a updated Kor Ror 2 to it.

[YetAnother]

i heard, quite a while ago, that there is a quota system in place for granted citizenships; was explained to me it was  by country and is an across-the-board system; so the maldives gets the same number as china,india,etc;

anyone know if this is the case ?

if so, then suggests applying early in the year rather than later, right ?

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

i heard, quite a while ago, that there is a quota system in place for granted citizenships; was explained to me it was  by country and is an across-the-board system; so the maldives gets the same number as china,india,etc;

anyone know if this is the case ?

if so, then suggests applying early in the year rather than later, right ?

You are going off topic since this topic is about a person establishing his Thai nationality from birth.

There is no quota for citizenship. The quota is for applying for permanent residency.

[Chelbysea]

Thank you! This is helpful, I am starting the process for my Thai birth certificate. For the house registration, do you think it has to be the original or just a copy? I have a copy that my aunt gave me last time I was in Thailand. 

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, Chelbysea said:

Thank you! This is helpful, I am starting the process for my Thai birth certificate. For the house registration, do you think it has to be the original or just a copy? I have a copy that my aunt gave me last time I was in Thailand. 

They will accept a copy.

[Chelbysea]

Thank you!

 

how many difficulties do you think I will have if my dad who is thai passed away? Do you think they will request a DNA test? Which I suppose I could do with one of my aunts....

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, Chelbysea said:

Thank you!

 

how many difficulties do you think I will have if my dad who is thai passed away? Do you think they will request a DNA test? Which I suppose I could do with one of my aunts....

It is not normally asked for. If asked for a DNA test from an aunt would be accepted.

[QuantumMech]

What's probably the final chapter of my Thai citizenship story: I went to the amphoe office today with my Thai birth certificate and Thai passport, my mom and her tabien baan and ID card, and since I found this page beforehand, a couple passport-sized photos. They remembered my mom and me from the last time we were there 8 months ago--don't know if it was because they don't get many foreign-born people trying to get an ID card, or if it was because one of the ID card ladies is the daughter of my mom's friend. Or maybe they just have good memories :)

 

In any case, one of the workers asked if I got a properly-authenticated birth certificate, so I provided that and my passport. The passport probably wasn't needed, but she looked at it, made a copy, scanned it, etc... so maybe it was helpful. She asked if I had a picture, and I gave them a couple. That web page says only one picture is needed, but she took two. And she asked my mom for her ID card and tabien baan. After a couple of minutes of reading stuff, printing forms, and looking through a large book of what appeared to be a handwritten register of people who were added to a tabien baan (all kids from what I saw, although I only saw a few pages), she pasted one of my pics into the register and wrote some stuff in it (I couldn't tell what all it said, although I did recognize my Thai passport number as one of the things she wrote). Printed some forms, had my mom sign them, pasted another photo on one of the forms, and gave the forms and the book to the palat amphoe to sign/stamp. She then printed my info in my mom's blue book, typed up a short statement about how I was added to a tabien baan on 18 Aug 2560 at the amphoe office and was assigned ID number 5 XXXX XXXXX XX X, and printed the statement on the back of my birth certificate. Total cost, 20 baht.

 

I then went over to the ID card desk to get fingerprinted and photographed... the process wasn't any different from any one else, except I can't really write Thai and messed up when writing/signing my name... wrote a ม instead of น; even though I have no trouble remembering which is which when reading, writing threw me off :). The lady said it was fine and just to write the correct letter on top of the bad one. But then she had to redo my ID card (wrong religion on it... she asked if I knew my blood type, but never asked about my religion) so I had to get fingerprinted, photographed, and fill out the form again, and I did a much better job writing my name the second time around :) ID card was free (apparently the first one's free?)

 

So I'm now the proud holder of a Thai ID card :) I found the whole process to be straightforward and not particularly difficult. Certainly a lot of hunting for documentation and sending paperwork around to get the initial birth certificate, but I didn't have any problem getting what was required. And once I had the birth certificate, the rest went pretty quickly.

 

As I said in my original post, I don't currently have any plans to move to Thailand, but it's nice that the option is available to me. I see all the posts here about non-Thais jumping through hoops with getting new visas and extensions, 90 day reporting, etc... in order to stay here long-term, so I figure there's a good reason for that. And I love being able to use the automatic gate at the airport :)

 

Thanks to everyone for their information and advice!

Edited August 18, 2017 by QuantumMech

[Arkady]

On 8/18/2017 at 9:42 PM, QuantumMech said:

I then went over to the ID card desk to get fingerprinted and photographed... the process wasn't any different from any one else, except I can't really write Thai and messed up when writing/signing my name... wrote a ม instead of น; even though I have no trouble remembering which is which when reading, writing threw me off :). The lady said it was fine and just to write the correct letter on top of the bad one. But then she had to redo my ID card (wrong religion on it... she asked if I knew my blood type, but never asked about my religion) so I had to get fingerprinted, photographed, and fill out the form again, and I did a much better job writing my name the second time around :) ID card was free (apparently the first one's free?)

 

 

When I got my ID I asked if it was essential to have my religion on it, as I believe this is a personal matter that is none of the government's business.  It turned out that you are allowed to leave that part of the form blank and your ID will not mention religion.

[amidia808]

You should definitely try registering!