British rights activist to face defamation verdict in Thailand

[ukrules]

Well. At least we got one judge today making fair and wise decision in freedom of speech case. Bravo

One anonymous and deliberately unnamed judge.

I know the Thai courts work a little differently to those in the west these days by having a kind of panel of judges who decide the cases so perhaps naming one of them would not be appropriate as it's a joint decision by the panel, they should instead name them all.

This kind of setup reminds me of the 'star chamber' (google it) they used to have in the UK half a millennium ago.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ukrules

[micmichd]

This will be huge, internationally. I hope Thailand grows up a bit and does the right thing: removing these draconian defamation laws.

They'll have to grow up more than a bit to get rid of the defamation laws, it's all about face. How many years will it take for an adult decision to be made by a primary school kid?

So all countries should or just Thailand? Because most all countries have them.

Yes, but in democratic countries like the UK defamation, as with libel and slander, is not a criminal offence and can only be pursued in civil courts. Defending against such an action is much easier, as proof that the alleged defamation was in the public interest is justification enough for publication. This is not the case in Thailand, where the defamation law is used to deter public complaint, in particular against businesses. For example, if a builder screws up your house and you complain to a third party he or she can sue you for defamation irrespective of whether the complaint was legitimate and in the public interest. The Thai defamation law is the equivalent of having a hit man on hand to take out "difficult" people and needs to be rewritten to bring it more in line with international norms.

[micmichd]

You are lucky you don't live in Germany where defamation IS a crime.

[German Viking]

"The charge is dismissed due to unlawful interrogation process under section 120 of the criminal procedure code."

So, dismissed on a judicial technicality, but not in principle?

This is just the thai way to solve this problem without to loosing face.

[German Viking]

If the migrant workers agree with the lower then minimum wages and are happy to work for that then what's the problem? As long as they get treated well then i don't see the problem. This is Asia, not Europe.

Europeans have the choice to buy any brand of fruitjuice, expensive ones or cheap ones so if they don't like it then buy another brand from another country.

The way the thais have treated her ?

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-court-awards-tortured-12-year-old-burmese-girl-143k-in-compensation.html

Well of course i'm against slavery or abuse against migrants but as long as they are not harmed, free to stop working, always get paid what was promised, have the right to call the police without fear then i don't see the problem.

This is not good enough they also have to earn the minimum salary of 300THB/day.

[kannot]

When Natural Fruit says "appeal" is that code for "pay a bigger bribe"

[kannot]

If the migrant workers agree with the lower then minimum wages and are happy to work for that then what's the problem? As long as they get treated well then i don't see the problem. This is Asia, not Europe.

Europeans have the choice to buy any brand of fruitjuice, expensive ones or cheap ones so if they don't like it then buy another brand from another country.

The way the thais have treated her ?

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-court-awards-tortured-12-year-old-burmese-girl-143k-in-compensation.html

Well of course i'm against slavery or abuse against migrants but as long as they are not harmed, free to stop working, always get paid what was promised, have the right to call the police without fear then i don't see the problem.

This is not good enough they also have to earn the minimum salary of 300THB/day.

Some workers aremt worth 1 baht a day, I disagree let the workers decide, if the salaries too low they wouldnt come, the market decides, minimum wages are a joke.

[englishoak]

Let us hope this small victory over stupid Thai defamationlaws are the first of many to follow!!

And best of all, it actually proves that foreigners can win in Thai courts!!

He didn't win but the the case was thrown out on technical grounds. He is still facing serious charges under the ridiculous Computer Crimes Act that was supposedly intended to protect people from cyber fraud and a large civil suit.

Andy still needs a lot of support. I believe there is a defence fund for him with details on his website.

The irony is that his work is in the interests of Thailand and the government should recognise that and give him full support. All of Thailand's Western trading partners believe that the exploitation of foreign labour in Thailand is a serious problem and, if nothing is done, Thailand will suffer. There is nothing unique about Thailand's export products, all of which can be sourced elsewhere for the same or cheaper prices. Even 'Thai" jasmine rice is grown in the US and Vietnam.

I suspect theres an awful lot of support and pressure being brought to bare regarding Andys cases.

The timing of things couldnt be better for media interest and public awareness, I think today we saw the beginnings of the Thai courts backing away from such high profile and ludicrous defamation cases.... It has potential to become very very embarrassing to the Thai law system.

​The world is watching very very closely ......

[Bluespunk]

You are lucky you don't live in Germany where defamation IS a crime.

Defamation is an offence in many countries, but generally not for telling the truth.

[Thai at Heart]

The whole point that Andy was trying to make was that Migrant workers in Thailand are treated completely different to Thais.

They are paid much less than the minimum wage, they have no rights of complaint and no legal protection. They can leave their job yes.... But they will just get the same treatment everywhere in Thailand.

Andy just held up the National Foods case as an example of what is widespread across Thailand and is a pretty disingenuous display of lack of human rights to be treated equally and not some sort of commodity to be used and abused.

Regardless of whether this is Europe or not. The European public rely on this exact sort of exposure for them to even begin to exercise their ability to choose which produce they want to and not want to buy. If it not reported on by the likes of Andy Hall. Then how are they expected to base that decision?

The world market has a fundamental right to know if what they are buying, they are indirectly sponsoring this sort of disgusting abuse.

To be cynical about it, this is all about a fait market. There may well be a company out there that pays the proper wage and does the right thing, but its product is more expensive and thus doesn't have as much business.

Thus, paying under the legal minimum is cheating the market. Funny this. Free marketeering being only implemented if everyone plays by the rules and regs.

The owners of this company have been making excessive profit. That is unfair. Simple.

I agree.

That is why Andy actually chose this as an example.

Cheap has a high price.

That's why this needed to be exposed, so the western markets can make their decision whether they want to trade with these people or not.

Now let's see if this next charge results in a similar ruling.

The last thing Thailand wants is the western markets putting the spotlight back on this.

National Foods wants to watch their <deleted>. If Andy goes down, nobody in the west will trade with them again. It will be game over (i hope).

Apparently the ownership are staunch democrat supporters. They won't be happy to lose this, but I am sorry,times change.

The world is a small place these days and most consumers would rather not buy products produced from exploitation.

If the Thais don't like it, they can just go home and leave our markets right?

Yes.. But it won't be a case of Thailand leaving our markets. It will be a case of our markets leaving Thailand.

Correct consumers won't want to buy products produced from exploitation. But it won't be so much as the consumer doing the damage directly to Thailand. It will be the consumers putting pressure on the big supermarkets. It will be the big chain stores that will boycott Thailand to keep their consumers happy and on board.

Which is why Carforre suspended its orders of seafood if I remember correctly. The supermarkets recognise that their customers don't want to have to walk around their stores squinting at every label to see where it is from. They rely on the supermarket to do that for them.

Thais will have to conform to their bare minimum. Isn't that what they expect of foreigners coming to live here?

The shoe is on the other foot.

[Bluespunk]

If the migrant workers agree with the lower then minimum wages and are happy to work for that then what's the problem? As long as they get treated well then i don't see the problem. This is Asia, not Europe.

Europeans have the choice to buy any brand of fruitjuice, expensive ones or cheap ones so if they don't like it then buy another brand from another country.

The way the thais have treated her ?

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-court-awards-tortured-12-year-old-burmese-girl-143k-in-compensation.html

Well of course i'm against slavery or abuse against migrants but as long as they are not harmed, free to stop working, always get paid what was promised, have the right to call the police without fear then i don't see the problem.

This is not good enough they also have to earn the minimum salary of 300THB/day.

Some workers aremt worth 1 baht a day, I disagree let the workers decide, if the salaries too low they wouldnt come, the market decides, minimum wages are a joke.

Nope.

[German Viking]

You are lucky you don't live in Germany where defamation IS a crime.

This is total bullshit, who told you this?

[German Viking]

Well of course i'm against slavery or abuse against migrants but as long as they are not harmed, free to stop working, always get paid what was promised, have the right to call the police without fear then i don't see the problem.

This is not good enough they also have to earn the minimum salary of 300THB/day.

Some workers aremt worth 1 baht a day, I disagree let the workers decide, if the salaries too low they wouldnt come, the market decides, minimum wages are a joke.

You sounds like a slave trader, if they are not worth 1 baht, then don't employ them, this is the right way to do it.

[Cake Monster]

Thats one bonefire put out. Plenty more to go.

[micmichd]

You are lucky you don't live in Germany where defamation IS a crime.

This is total bullshit, who told you this?

[micmichd]

In Germany defamation is a crime after § 186 StGB ("üble Nachrede")

If you find witnesses that are not afraid of loosing their job or are bribed by a company, you might be able to prove the truth. If and only if.

Of course, there is a conflict with the constitutional freedom of speech. If you are tough enough to claim it, and if you have time and money (or supporters) you can win such a case.

[micmichd]

You are lucky you don't live in Germany where defamation IS a crime.

This is total bullshit, who told you this?

[micmichd]

"The charge is dismissed due to unlawful interrogation process under section 120 of the criminal procedure code."

So, dismissed on a judicial technicality, but not in principle?

This is just the thai way to solve this problem without to loosing face.

[micmichd]

It is also common in European countries like Germany. Avoid a material decision by dismissing the case in the procedural way.

Please be comparative before blaming Thai authorities for decisions that are real common in Farangistan.

[micmichd]

After all:

Go on, Andy, you're right, the world should know.

[micmichd]

Oh no.

In German Farang Magazine I just read that they are trying to charge Andy for Cyber crime now. Does anyone have a reliable source for that?

[micmichd]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Thai-court-dismisses-case-against-British-rights-a-30246495.html

So, it looks like this is gonna go on for a while...

[Laughing Gravy]

This will be huge, internationally. I hope Thailand grows up a bit and does the right thing: removing these draconian defamation laws.

They'll have to grow up more than a bit to get rid of the defamation laws, it's all about face. How many years will it take for an adult decision to be made by a primary school kid?

So all countries should or just Thailand? Because most all countries have them.

Yes Thailand should, as well as other countries but this is a forum for Thailand. Please don't try and defend this silly, childish, accepted part of Thai culture that brings the country down. We want to see Thailand improve and develop and what is being said here, about removing the deformation law would be a huge step, in the right direction IMHO.

[expat_4_life]

Oh no.

In German Farang Magazine I just read that they are trying to charge Andy for Cyber crime now. Does anyone have a reliable source for that?

It's mentioned in the OP ....

Andy faces a total of 4 court cases, the first of which was dismissed on a technicality on Wednesday and is back in court today facing

a $10 MIllion civil suit. According to the OP the cyber crime charges are due to be tried in November.

From another website AD that we cannot quote here ....

The third case, computer crimes act and criminal defamation charges, will proceed on 17th of November at the Southern Bangkok Criminal Court. Dates for a fourth US$4 million civil case have not yet been confirmed.

Edited October 30, 2014 by expat_4_life

[German Viking]

In Germany defamation is a crime after § 186 StGB ("üble Nachrede")

If you find witnesses that are not afraid of loosing their job or are bribed by a company, you might be able to prove the truth. If and only if.

Of course, there is a conflict with the constitutional freedom of speech. If you are tough enough to claim it, and if you have time and money (or supporters) you can win such a case.ved

This is the Theory in fact this fish industry case would in germany never go trail, sure proved by the court in advance and than dismissed, like it supposed to be in a democracy.

This § 186 is made to proctect ppl and institutions from defamation and their damages and not to misuse this rules, caused germany is still not a banana state.

For Example: If this case would be a real defamation, then would go this to trail, caused of the big commercial and reputation damages this could be on the end a maximum punishment of 250,000 € and no prison.

[German Viking]

It is also common in European countries like Germany. Avoid a material decision by dismissing the case in the procedural way.

Please be comparative before blaming Thai authorities for decisions that are real common in Farangistan.

This case would be dismissed in germany with a clear statement, caused it is the truth.

There would also start a real investigation against the fish industry, cuased abuse of employees and believe me one of this ppl in charge in this company would serve several years in prison.

[German Viking]

Oh no.

In German Farang Magazine I just read that they are trying to charge Andy for Cyber crime now. Does anyone have a reliable source for that.

Please provide me a link.

[German Viking]

It is also common in European countries like Germany. Avoid a material decision by dismissing the case in the procedural way.

Please be comparative before blaming Thai authorities for decisions that are real common in Farangistan.

The difference between Germany and Thailand in a case like this, the german authorities would not try to protect the fish industry when there is no defamation, they would do the opposit and try to punish them.

[German Viking]

Oh no.

In German Farang Magazine I just read that they are trying to charge Andy for Cyber crime now. Does anyone have a reliable source for that?

It's mentioned in the OP ....

Andy faces a total of 4 court cases, the first of which was dismissed on a technicality on Wednesday and is back in court today facing

a $10 MIllion civil suit. According to the OP the cyber crime charges are due to be tried in November.

From another website AD that we cannot quote here ....

The third case, computer crimes act and criminal defamation charges, will proceed on 17th of November at the Southern Bangkok Criminal Court. Dates for a fourth US$4 million civil case have not yet been confirmed.

This is Civil cases are the reason why the court made technical decision, caused if they would clear had dismissed this case, then this cases would be gone too.

The Thai Authorities still did'nt got any idea to real investigate against the fish industry.

They will be faced with the consequences of theier decisions and still not like to realize that this having start already.

Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall (Pride becomes for the fall).

They still mean the High season will wash all this away, Dreamer

Som nam na.

[micmichd]

Maybe I'm blind, I cannot see anything about 3 more cases against Andy in the original OP. Anyway, that's clarified now.

The whole situation would be easier if Andy had reliable witnesses for wage dumping. Witnesses that do not face deportation because they might be considered to be illegal immigrants.

Once again, there is no difference between Thailand and Germany in that. In Germany immigrants get a working permit only for one job. If they start whistleblowing about their working conditions, then the company can simply cancel the contract, then the immigrant has no valid working permission anymore and faces deportation.

Up to you whether you call it the behaviour of a banana state or not.

I hope you catch the problem.