Bangkok Bank 'chip' debit card - can use in foreign ATMs?

[Disparate Dan]

I ask because my Bangkok Bank Visa debit card got damaged (put in washing machine - we have already done the 'money-laundering jokes, thanks) and has to be replaced. At my branch they told me I can only have the newer 'chip' card, "which can only be used at Bangkok Bank ATMs" - ie not other banks' ATMs.

When I asked if the chip card will work in ATMs abroad (the old, tattered card certainly did), there was just a shrug and "Don't think so."

Anyone know if I can use the newer card outside Thailand, or is it useless?

[Saan]

I had to replace my lost card yesterday and was also given a card that will only work at Bangkok Bank atms.

I was told that the usual card was out of stock and that I could replace the one issued when stock came in.

I suspect, as the card we've been issued can only be used at Bangkok Bank atms, you will have no joy with your card at foreign atms.

[Canada]

I've been through this. Politely ask them to order you an old style card. It may take up to a week.

[Disparate Dan]

I had to replace my lost card yesterday and was also given a card that will only work at Bangkok Bank atms.

I was told that the usual card was out of stock and that I could replace the one issued when stock came in.

I suspect, as the card we've been issued can only be used at Bangkok Bank atms, you will have no joy with your card at foreign atms.

That chimes with what I have since been told by the bank - they are quoting 'end of the month' for old-style cards.

They also say the chip cards do not have the conventional magnetic stripe (ie ONLY the chip), which is counter to the global EMV standards - and means they won't work in some overseas ATMs. The standard is intended to ensure everyone can continue to use facilities with and without chip readers, but of course Thailand once again goes its own way and screws up.

But I only have the bank's info to go on....

[Pib]

You should be able to use the Be1st Smart chipped card in any "Visa EMV-enabled" ATM abroad (i.e., ATMs capable of reading chipped cards)...pretty common in some countries like European countries; not so common in other countries. But within Thailand you are still limited to only using Bangkok Bank ATMs since other Thai banks have not upgraded to EMV-enable ATMs yet. This situation of being in a country with not many EMV-enabled ATMs, even like the U.S., can cause issues for a person needing money. All countries are moving toward chipped cards. But a person can also have the the regular Be1st magnetic strip card (i.e., you can get both cards) but of course you'll pay for it via the annual fee of Bt200 for the magnetic strip card and Bt300 for the chipped card.

See below cut and paste from Bangkok Bank website.

[JimGant]

They also say the chip cards do not have the conventional magnetic stripe (ie ONLY the chip), which is counter to the global EMV standards - and means they won't work in some overseas ATMs. The standard is intended to ensure everyone can continue to use facilities with and without chip readers, but of course Thailand once again goes its own way and screws up.

My BB chip ATM/Debit "smart" card has a magnetic stripe, presumably with information on it. And, when inserted in an ATM machine, the first thing apparently read is the lead of the magnetic stripe, which says something like, "this card only works with chip capable ATM machines." Which, as we know, BB is currently the only holder of such.

But, most Thai businesses don't have chip capable POS machines, so it was my understanding that smart "chip" debit cards would be backward compatible to the old 'swipe and sign' mode for POS transactions. Otherwise, most BB smart debit cards would only be good for ATM transactions at BB ATM machines -- certainly negating any profit center for these cards in POS mode. Anyway, that is why I zeroed out my daily POS limit for my smart ATM/Debit card -- since I thought a cloned smart card would only be secure from fraud in the ATM mode, not POS mode.

This quote from http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/04/28/banks-replace-debit-and-credit-cards-next-year seems to support my assumption:

Starting next year all Thai banks must switch to more secure ATM cards, according to the Bank of Thailand.

With skimming of customer accounts a perennial problem, banks will be required to issue so-called "chip and PIN" cards, which rely on a small embedded chip for identification instead of a magnetic strip. Purchases from vendors with compatible technology will require a PIN code be entered to complete the transaction. The cards will still include magnetic stripe for vendors without chip readers.

[Pib]

Jim,

Where you say most Thai businesses don't have chip capable POS machines, I don't think that's right because I see Thais handing checkout clerks cards at Lotus, Big C, Makro, grocery stores, misc businesses, etc., and they are usually "credit cards" with chips. The clerk slips the chip end of card into the machine...about a third of the card is insert into the front of the machine...the transaction is run...card given back to the person. The magnetic strip on the card is not used at all in this case. Yeap, see it all the time.

Pib

[JimGant]

Where you say most Thai businesses don't have chip capable POS machines, I don't think that's right because I see Thais handing checkout clerks cards at Lotus, Big C, Makro, grocery stores, misc businesses, etc., and they are usually "credit cards" with chips. The clerk slips the chip end of card into the machine...about a third of the card is insert into the front of the machine...the transaction is run...card given back to the person. The magnetic strip on the card is not used at all in this case.

Pib,

Hadn't seen that, although I only pay attention to my transactions, which are strictly US credit cards -- non chip Capital One, and a "chip and sign" Bank of America. Both are swiped, as they apparently ignore the chip in the BofA card, falling back on strictly the magnetic swipe info.

I hadn't realize there were Thai chip cards out there, credit and debit, other than the Be1st smart ATM/Debit card. Interesting that a clerk now has to determine whether a card is magnetic stripe only (thus, must be swiped), or is a chip card -- and should be inserted into the chip reading POS machine, not swiped. Did you see whether or not the insert chip card transaction required a Pin -- or just a signature?

But seems to me one machine could suffice, if all cards were first swiped (I think they all still do have magnetic stripes), then if the clerk is warned this is a chip card ('cause the lead in on the magnetic stripe says so), then she could then insert to read the chip. But, I guess with my BofA chip card, I've only had it swiped at an older, non chip reader POS machine, 'cause it reverts to only reading the magnetic stripe.

practical experience and consumer feedback indicate that you can still use magnetic stripe credit cards pretty much anywhere that will accept a chip-and-signature card. And the few places where magstripe cards don’t work (i.e. certain unattended kiosks), chip-and-signature cards don’t tend to work either.

Which leads me back to whether or not the BB smart card is backward compatible as a magnetic swipe card in a POS transaction? (We know it's not in an ATM transaction.) Has anyone reading this used their Be1st smart debit card in a swipe and sign POS transaction -- where you witness the card being swiped, not inserted? (And, of course, by definition no Pin is required, being swipe and sign, not swipe and Pin.)

[Pib]

Where you say most Thai businesses don't have chip capable POS machines, I don't think that's right because I see Thais handing checkout clerks cards at Lotus, Big C, Makro, grocery stores, misc businesses, etc., and they are usually "credit cards" with chips. The clerk slips the chip end of card into the machine...about a third of the card is insert into the front of the machine...the transaction is run...card given back to the person. The magnetic strip on the card is not used at all in this case.

Pib,

Hadn't seen that, although I only pay attention to my transactions, which are strictly US credit cards -- non chip Capital One, and a "chip and sign" Bank of America. Both are swiped, as they apparently ignore the chip in the BofA card, falling back on strictly the magnetic swipe info.

I hadn't realize there were Thai chip cards out there, credit and debit, other than the Be1st smart ATM/Debit card. Interesting that a clerk now has to determine whether a card is magnetic stripe only (thus, must be swiped), or is a chip card -- and should be inserted into the chip reading POS machine, not swiped. Did you see whether or not the insert chip card transaction required a Pin -- or just a signature?

But seems to me one machine could suffice, if all cards were first swiped (I think they all still do have magnetic stripes), then if the clerk is warned this is a chip card ('cause the lead in on the magnetic stripe says so), then she could then insert to read the chip. But, I guess with my BofA chip card, I've only had it swiped at an older, non chip reader POS machine, 'cause it reverts to only reading the magnetic stripe.

practical experience and consumer feedback indicate that you can still use magnetic stripe credit cards pretty much anywhere that will accept a chip-and-signature card. And the few places where magstripe cards don’t work (i.e. certain unattended kiosks), chip-and-signature cards don’t tend to work either.

Which leads me back to whether or not the BB smart card is backward compatible as a magnetic swipe card in a POS transaction? (We know it's not in an ATM transaction.) Has anyone reading this used their Be1st smart debit card in a swipe and sign POS transaction -- where you witness the card being swiped, not inserted? (And, of course, by definition no Pin is required, being swipe and sign, not swipe and Pin.)

Jim,

Here in Bangkok I see folks paying with Thai "credit" cards all the time. I think it's standard operating procedure for Thai credit cards to be issued "with chips"; but not the same story for Thai debit cards except the Bangkok Bank Be1st Smart (chipped) debit card. And quite often when I hand a checkout clerk my U.S. Capital One credit card (mag strip only) many of them will try inserting it like a chipped card...probably an automatic reflex since it appears Thai credit cards are chipped and they get handed those a lot at least here in Bangkok. But most clerks seem to look at the card when I hand it "to them to determine if it has a chip or they must use the magnetic strip" since most Thai debit cards don't have chips similar to how most U.S. debit/credit cards don't have chips yet...but as you know the U.S. is slowly changing to chipped cards.

For example I just went to the Kbank webpage and took below snapshot of their "credit" card offerings...notice each one of their credit cards has a chip.

Additonally, I have never seen any PINs entered since almost 100% of the time the POS machine is kept close to or under the cash register with little ability to move it around...it's purely a signature transaction. Now a lot of the stories have a separate PIN entry pad which the customer could easily access (usually right next to the little pad where they sign the card receipt) but I've "never, ever" seen the PIN entry pad used. Like mentioned, they put the chipped card in the POS machine, it spits out a receipt for signature and the customer signs it.....just like using a mag strip card.

Pib

Edited November 13, 2014 by Pib

[Crossy]

Two of my three Thai credit cards are chipped (the exception is AmEx).

I've never been asked for my PIN when using a Thai card, but I'm often (but not always) asked for my PIN when using my UK cards.

[JimGant]

For example I just went to the Kbank webpage and took below snapshot of their "credit" card offerings...notice each one of their credit cards has a chip.

Thanks for that. I've never paid much attention to credit card offerings in Thailand.

I've never been asked for my PIN when using a Thai card, but I'm often (but not always) asked for my PIN when using my UK cards

Have you been asked for a PIN when using your UK cards in Thailand? Were that to happen to me, I guess I'd be out of luck, since Bank of America's credit cards, with chips, are strictly "chip and sign."

When using your Bank of America chip credit card, you'll be prompted for a signature to complete the transaction. When traveling internationally, on rare occasions, you may be asked to provide a PIN. Just communicate to the merchant that the credit card requires a signature only. Bank of America doesn't currently offer consumer credit cards that include PIN authorization for purchases.

[Pib]

Two of my three Thai credit cards are chipped (the exception is AmEx).

I've never been asked for my PIN when using a Thai card, but I'm often (but not always) asked for my PIN when using my UK cards.

Interesting about the Thai AmEx card not being chipped. I went to this Bangkok Bank webpage to look at their credit card offerings since they offer Visa, Mastercard, AmEx, and China Union Pay credit cards. All their Visa and Mastercard logo cards were chipped but the AmEx and Union Pay logo credit cards were not.

[Disparate Dan]

Gents - thanks for the comments. One poster says: "My BB chip ATM/Debit "smart" card has a magnetic stripe, presumably with information on it."

BB itself (well, one of its staff) told the cards do NOT have the stripe. May I assume that is INcorrect? Because if they DO have the stripe, I believe they would be usable in any ATM (worldwide) just like a good old 'dumb' card.

[claynlr]

My BB card is a "Be 1st Smart" debit card that I got about 2 months ago. It has a chip and a strip on it.

[Disparate Dan]

My BB card is a "Be 1st Smart" debit card that I got about 2 months ago. It has a chip and a strip on it.

Thanks. So BBL don't know what they are talking about. Who'd have thought it..................

[JimGant]

BB itself (well, one of its staff) told the cards do NOT have the stripe. May I assume that is INcorrect? Because if they DO have the stripe, I believe they would be usable in any ATM (worldwide) just like a good old 'dumb' card.

Dan, my Be1st smart ATM/Debit card definitely has a physical stripe. Whether or not it contains data, I don't know.

But if it does, we know that data does not allow it to be backward compatible in a non-chip equipped ATM machine -- which, for now, are all non Bangkok Bank ATM machines within Thailand. This is supposed to change in the near future.

What I don't know is, is there sufficient data on that magstrip to allow me to use it at a mom and pop store that hasn't changed over to chip readable POS machines? I.e, is the stripe programmed to be backward compatible for POS transactions -- but not for ATM transactions? Dunno.

[GarryP]

How difficult is it to find an ATM in the UK that will accept my BB chip ATM/Debit "smart" card. I would rather not have to use my credit card and am not even sure that is possible as it is also chipped Krungsri card.

[Swiss1960]

How difficult is it to find an ATM in the UK that will accept my BB chip ATM/Debit "smart" card. I would rather not have to use my credit card and am not even sure that is possible as it is also chipped Krungsri card.

In the UK (and in all of Europe) all ATM are EMV upgraded since years. Therefore, your BB VISA Debit Card should work on all of them.

[Swiss1960]

BB itself (well, one of its staff) told the cards do NOT have the stripe. May I assume that is INcorrect? Because if they DO have the stripe, I believe they would be usable in any ATM (worldwide) just like a good old 'dumb' card.

Dan, my Be1st smart ATM/Debit card definitely has a physical stripe. Whether or not it contains data, I don't know.

But if it does, we know that data does not allow it to be backward compatible in a non-chip equipped ATM machine -- which, for now, are all non Bangkok Bank ATM machines within Thailand. This is supposed to change in the near future.

What I don't know is, is there sufficient data on that magstrip to allow me to use it at a mom and pop store that hasn't changed over to chip readable POS machines? I.e, is the stripe programmed to be backward compatible for POS transactions -- but not for ATM transactions? Dunno.

EACH EMV capable (chipped) Visa or MasterCard Debit or Credit Card has data on BOTH the chip and the magstripe. The reason why the BB VISA Debit Card can only used for cash advance on EMV capable ATM's is the following:

On both the magstripe and the chip, there is a section containing information about what transactions are allowed, this is the so called "CVM list" (Card Verification Method list) . For cash transactions, the issuer of the card (in this case Bangkok Bank) defines in that section whether

- he will allow cash transactions with PIN only

- he will allow cash transactions on Chip only

- he will allow cash transactions as "magstripe fallback" transactions

- he will allow cash transactions in online mode only (meaning verification agains the bank account) or also offline (i.e. with daily cash limits that only arrive at the bank on next day)

- he will allow .... many other things

- and of course all above can also be reverse

So Bangkok Bank set up their EMV VISA Debit Cards for cash transactions as "Chip & PIN only" and since it is a debit card, I am 100% sure it works only, if the ATM can go online and check against the bank account. For retail transactions, the CVM list will probably define that the card shall

- first use chip and pin

- then use magstripe and pin

- then use magstripe and signature

- else decline

that is what is on the card. And since the terminal (either ATM or POS in the shop) does contain a similar CVM list, the card and the terminal will first of all communicate with each other and agree on the verification method until the find a common method allowed for both the card and the terminal. That means that a BB debit card which only allows "chip and pin" will work on any ATM worldwide that is also chip enabled, but will never work on ATM's that do not have chip capability. And since for retail transactions, BB allows magstripe and Pin or magstripe and signature, you can use the card in shops with non-EMV POS (Point Of Sales) terminals and will have to sign.

This is a worldwide standard, not specific to Thailand, the only specific for Thailand is how far behind they are with rollout of EMV cards and terminals compared with the rest of the world.

[Heng]

*bump*

Anyone travelling with their BBL (chipped or unchipped) ATM outside of Thailand at the moment? Just wondering if there have been any issues. I often use mine but my last trip was before this back office software BOT 'upgrade' with their ATMs. Just wondering if there are any issues with declines. Just want to make sure before my next trip. I also have my US cards, but I like to have the BBL cards available as well.