Bought a car. Dealer wont move plates or take my calls.

[konying]

Short update as we are doing some things that we just don't want the dealer to see coming but one of the things he now knows about is that he will be charged with fraud in court.

The sad thing is that this guy has been known to do this and has done it to more than one person on this forum. It is a real shame that we can't give the name of the Auto Exchange that keeps doing this to people. I did a google search before I bought the car but nothing came up. I now have TV members telling me about how they have been in court with this guy for years pulling the same stunts.

The dealer has reportedly even spent some time in jail for check fraud by writing bad checks to pay for cars he has to get back becasue he can't get the books. So in the end he gets the book and the car and the buyer gets a bad check. And well that means more years of court.

OCBP keeps saying they are trying to get the guy to come up here to talk things out. Clearly that won't work.

But have you gone through Bangkok OCBP and lodged a claim there? or keep listening to the local guy?

[ChaangNoi]

As far as I understand it the OCBP Bangkok office will now sue the Auto Exchange located in Pattaya but use the Bangkok court system. I was told today I will be getting a letter from them in a few days to confirm everything. If this happens I will come back here with an update.

Anyway the dealer guy clearly has issues, owes a lot of people money and has even been to jail for fraud/theft. Hopefully the OCBP will shut down the unnamed operation so no one else becomes a victim.

Edited March 2, 2015 by ChaangNoi

[seedy]

Hope it works out for you. Fingers Crossed !

[ChaangNoi]

Hope it works out for you. Fingers Crossed !

Thanks but we have the car and we are going to be able to keep it. The only problem would be if we wanted to sell it or use it to back a mortgage, something I do not care about.

"Section 1332. When a person has in good faith purchased property at a sale by public auction or in open market or from a trader dealing in such things, he shall not be bound to return it to the true owner unless the latter reimburses the purchase price."

http://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-code-part-3.html

Thanks to the TV member who pointed that out to me.

The book holder on the car can not take it back from me unless I get a full refund. If the book holder on the car has an issue with Sam who sold it to me he needs to take him to court. If they do try to take the car from me as in steal it I have insurance on the car for theft.

[konying]

Hope it works out for you. Fingers Crossed !

Thanks but we have the car and we are going to be able to keep it. The only problem would be if we wanted to sell it or use it to back a mortgage, something I do not care about.

"Section 1332. When a person has in good faith purchased property at a sale by public auction or in open market or from a trader dealing in such things, he shall not be bound to return it to the true owner unless the latter reimburses the purchase price."

http://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-code-part-3.html

Thanks to the TV member who pointed that out to me.

The book holder on the car can not take it back from me unless I get a full refund. If the book holder on the car has an issue with Sam who sold it to me he needs to take him to court. If they do try to take the car from me as in steal it I have insurance on the car for theft.

I do not think it's your safety net at all.

Recall just the other week they confiscated a Lamborghini, because previous owner bought it with ill gained money.

Yet it was confiscated from the second owner.

[ChaangNoi]

The police taking a car and the book holder taking the car is a different matter as far as I understand it.

Unless the book holder is willing to report to the police that the car was stolen by the dealer I do not think there is a chance of that happening.

I'm also going to bet that it does not happen as the book holder seems to have about 40 cars with mortgages on then at a single loan company. For whatever reason my loan was paid off but the loan company still has their name with the other guy in the book.

The loan company has no claim on the car so the only other person who can is the guy who has his name in the book. However unless the car really is stolen and reported I really doubt he is going to get involved too much directly. He is what my wife calls a "big guy" and I doubt he would want his name in the press connected to this sort of questionable activity.

But this is Thailand so who knows.

[ChaangNoi]

I also want to add that as far as I understand it, the guy who lost his Lambo got away with it at first. They were going to take it but he won in court. He then went on social media and talked about how he knew the seller of the Lambo really well. This made the court assume that he knew about how the money was gained illegally and thus he assumed the risk when he bought it.

This is what I was told second hand so don't quote me.

I had no reason at all to assume that my car had any issues what so ever. They sell Lambo's where I bought my car and everything seemed to be legit.

Edited March 2, 2015 by ChaangNoi

[apidge]

this is the second time i have posted anything on here..

i have been offered a motorcycle that does not have a green book. it has a copy only. i am told it is a repossion . i have a gut feeling something is not right, my better half recons it is quite legal to do this. Any sugestions please

[ChaangNoi]

this is the second time i have posted anything on here..

i have been offered a motorcycle that does not have a green book. it has a copy only. i am told it is a repossion . i have a gut feeling something is not right, my better half recons it is quite legal to do this. Any sugestions please

Are you asking is it legal or if it is a good idea? It might be legal depending on who you are buying it from. It seems that the law will protect you if you are buying from a legit registered seller. However if it is just from some guy there is a huge risk it is stolen or has a loan on it. Also this can happen with a dealer as well. So it is a bad idea if you know you wont get a green book, but it might be legal.

If it is a dealer and they own the bike it would not be too much trouble for them to get a new book. If they can't get a new book I would run far far away.

[steve187]

this is the second time i have posted anything on here..

i have been offered a motorcycle that does not have a green book. it has a copy only. i am told it is a repossion . i have a gut feeling something is not right, my better half recons it is quite legal to do this. Any sugestions please

repossessions are sold by auction, the green book takes a month to filter through the system, but the seller will have a sales receipt from the auction, and a copy of the green book is the man a dealer?

[billd766]

this is the second time i have posted anything on here..

i have been offered a motorcycle that does not have a green book. it has a copy only. i am told it is a repossion . i have a gut feeling something is not right, my better half recons it is quite legal to do this. Any sugestions please

Personally I would not touch ANY motorbike that did not have a green book that I can hold in my hand, get a photocopy and even take photos of with my phone camera.

IMPO trust your gut feelings. Another bike will come along later.

[LivinLOS]

A photocopy isnt enough to process annual road tax.. Green book or nothing.

[Anthony5]

this is the second time i have posted anything on here..

i have been offered a motorcycle that does not have a green book. it has a copy only. i am told it is a repossion . i have a gut feeling something is not right, my better half recons it is quite legal to do this. Any sugestions please

It maybe a bike that still belongs to the finance company, where the finance holds the green book until the bike is sold. The only way to know if it is a safe deal is to contact the finance company directly over this matter.

[ChaangNoi]

A photocopy isnt enough to process annual road tax.. Green book or nothing.

It is enough, I have done it myself.

[LivinLOS]

A photocopy isnt enough to process annual road tax.. Green book or nothing.

It is enough, I have done it myself.

The book has to have the tax updated on the later pages.. And believe me should you be in an accident the cops want that page copied, with the tax payment printed on it.

How do you get that page updated without possession of the book ??

[Anthony5]

A photocopy isnt enough to process annual road tax.. Green book or nothing.

It is enough, I have done it myself.

The book has to have the tax updated on the later pages.. And believe me should you be in an accident the cops want that page copied, with the tax payment printed on it.

How do you get that page updated without possession of the book ??

When my car was on finance I always paid the road tax at the local transport department, since I live only a few hundred meters away as the crow flies, and the leasing company charged me a premium.

I only used a copy of the book, since the book stays withe leasing company, and emailed them the tax sticker after which they updated the book.

[ChaangNoi]

If the police want the book if it was involved in an accident why not tell them to contact the holder of the book? The leasing company or whoever it might be should be the one to deal with that. Most people who are in accidents will not have the book on them but the police can check on the computer if the taxes were paid.

Also when I went to pay for the taxes on this car and I did so with out the book I paid for 2 years as they had not been paid the year before.

[ChaangNoi]

Update: Well I got the letter and it was not exactly what I thought it would be.

The local office sent a letter to the Auto Exchange in Pattaya and said they had 15 days to explain where the book is or else the local office would turn it over to the Bangkok office.

So after being told for months by Bangkok they can't do anything we now get to start over. The BKK office will try to make contact with the Auto Exchange and then after 4 or 5 months assuming they never respond and the BKK office wishes to do so they can take the dealer to court. The whole thing should be done in 2 to 3 years if the dealer does not delay it too much.

That being said he is still going to be brought up on fraud charges in about 2 months. And once that happens I'm going to sue him in civil court up here locally just to be an ass. I want to make him defend everything I can toss at him.

He must really be in a bad bad way as this is going to in the end cost him way more than the value of the car. I will not make a deal so he will be forced to spend his time in jail paying back what he stole. Hopefully that will mess him up in all the other cases he is involved with enough that he just never gets out.

[Lancashirelad]

Sorry to hear the issue has become so serious.

Just one thing I noticed reading the recent updates. You mention the car is insured against theft. You might want to read the small print as there might be an exclusion when the ownership is in dispute or similar wording. Not saying there is, just suggesting to check ......... and good luck. What a pain after finding the car you wanted and buying in good faith!

Edit: I'm in Pattaya at the moment, but only for the next few days. Might go and just have a nose around this dealer you cleverly haven't named ;-) Anyone want to come?

Edited March 8, 2015 by Lancashirelad

[paz]

A photocopy isnt enough to process annual road tax.. Green book or nothing.

It is enough, I have done it myself.

Same I did for a motorbike.

[billd766]

A photocopy isnt enough to process annual road tax.. Green book or nothing.

It is enough, I have done it myself.

Same I did for a motorbike.

I did the same thing for a pickup truck before.

[ChaangNoi]

Semi related update:

Was talking to a lawyer about this stuff and he mentioned that a person just needs to wait 5 years and then can go get a new book with our name in it. So we thought this would be good if true but doubted it. We called our contract at the DMV to check and he said a person could only get a new book this way if their name was already in it. So it seems the lawyer was wrong. Also the DMV guy did say we could go to court and petition the court to let them give us a new book with our name. No idea what we need to get that done but I would assume we need a lot of stuff to prove we own the car legally.

Anyone know anything about this? Thx

[konying]

Semi related update:

Was talking to a lawyer about this stuff and he mentioned that a person just needs to wait 5 years and then can go get a new book with our name in it. So we thought this would be good if true but doubted it. We called our contract at the DMV to check and he said a person could only get a new book this way if their name was already in it. So it seems the lawyer was wrong. Also the DMV guy did say we could go to court and petition the court to let them give us a new book with our name. No idea what we need to get that done but I would assume we need a lot of stuff to prove we own the car legally.

Anyone know anything about this? Thx

No personal experience, but i would assume showing proof of purchase, money transfer/payment and may be accompanying letter from OCBP confirming your attempts to get the book and a letter from the finance company stating car is fully paid off.

[ScarpoFongness4U]

Sounds like the OP bought a stolen car....

The question is.....

Was it sold too low, for the OP to not know?

[ChaangNoi]

Sounds like the OP bought a stolen car....

The question is.....

Was it sold too low, for the OP to not know?

Sadly the price on the car was if anything a bit too high. I paid extra to get it from a registered dealer.

Also the car does not seem to be stolen. It would have been "missing" for months but no one has bothered to make a police report or put it in the computer system. We have been looking very hard for the "owner" in the book but he can't be found by the police or lawyers.

Edited March 13, 2015 by ChaangNoi

[LivinLOS]

A photocopy isnt enough to process annual road tax.. Green book or nothing.

It is enough, I have done it myself.

Same I did for a motorbike.

I did the same thing for a pickup truck before.

I stand corrected then..

I only know someone who had a bike with only a photocopy of the owners paper because an ex had run off with his stuff.. He couldnt get road tax on the bike and it became a ongoing problem with police road blocks. He couldnt get tax and IIRC after 3 years of no tax the plate is also invalid and cant be renewed with back taxing ?

[ChaangNoi]

Update:

Criminal Court: Went pretty much as expected. Sam did not show up but did send a lawyer. The lawyer did try to make a deal with us before hand but we rejected it before even hearing the terms. In the past it seems he has gotten out of a case by giving someone a bad check. This does not solve his problem but moves the case to a different court. Check fraud is a real crime but it is handled differently than selling stolen cars. Anyway the first thing Sam's lawyer did was ask for the date to be pushed back a few months. We told the judge that it was not okay as we had flew in from far away and were waiting for this to get resolved. Judge said to do it now. We more or less told the story of how we bought the car and were told we would get the book in 2 weeks. This was last September. Judge then asked why Sam did not give us the book and she said the car was financed and they had not paid the company. There was some other stuff that happened but nothing significant. The judge more or less said Sam has until the next court date to give us back the money or we press on with criminal charges. So he has about 2 months to refund the money or we have a court date where we give more evidence that he committed a crime. He then gets 2 more months to pay us back evidently. If he has not done it by then he has to go to court and an "adjustment" is done. This is where if the car is not paid for he is taken to jail. Don't know for how long but it sure will be fun seeing him there for a while. He has many cases going on right now and if he is in jail it will pretty much force him to lose many of the others making him stay in jail even longer.

The OCPB case has not really progressed. The local office sent off the stuff to BKK but did not hear from them in a month so resent it all. I called down in BKK to see what was going on but the person doing our case was in the hospital. She said if we had the number she could look it up. However since the locals resent it to BKK there is a new case number. The locals claim they do not have that number and we should get that number from Bkk in a week or two. So I do not know what is going on but no one seems to know what is going on. We are still going to take both paths but dealing with the OCPB has been interesting to say the least.

I will keep updating but it might be a few months.

[BSJ]

The first 2 scooters I bought here were S/H and the wife insisted I go to the police ad ask for a stolen vehicle check. From that I got an official police letter with police stamp and police signature to say the scooter wasn't stolen. If it had been no-one could take it off me.

Another thing you can do if your vehicle has run out of registration/tax/insurance is go to the police station and get a permission letter to use it on the roads so you can go to DLT or a repair shop. Next day we took the PU with 6 months expired rego on the road to a tyre shop and lo 'n' behold there is a police road block, the police officer starts babbling to the wife in Thai about the expired disk, she whips out the letter, he has a quick read, hands it back to her and salutes and says have a nice day....or something, and we are on our way again!

[ChaangNoi]

The car has not been reported stolen at this time. However he did sell a car he does not own. He sold a car that is owned by a fiance company. This is what his lawyer told the judge.

No one can take the car from me other than the true owner and only if they give me 100% of the price back. If the true owner of the car has an issue he needs to take it up with the registered Thai company Auto Exchange. Because we bought the car from a legal and registered company and had no reason to expect anything was wrong the owner can not do anything to us. They can only go after Sam and his company.

We have been able to pay taxes on the car becasue we have a copy of the register book and it was imported into Thailand legally. We also have insurance on the car, I think "someone" might try to steal it.

Sam has put himself in a tricky spot as in about 6 months if he does not give us back the money he goes to jail. Also we have no obligation to give him back the car and honestly it might be criminal for us to do so as we now know he is not the owner. So assuming we get the money we then go to the police and try to find and contact the true owner of the car. This clearly could take a while.

The other option is that Sam just gives us the book, however this is clearly something he is unable to do or he would not have paid a lawyer to fight this in court.

Anyway it is interesting to see what will happen. Glad he is finally getting some really pressure put on him.

Edited April 22, 2015 by ChaangNoi

[Robert24]

The car has not been reported stolen at this time. However he did sell a car he does not own. He sold a car that is owned by a fiance company. This is what his lawyer told the judge.

No one can take the car from me other than the true owner and only if they give me 100% of the price back. If the true owner of the car has an issue he needs to take it up with the registered Thai company Auto Exchange. Because we bought the car from a legal and registered company and had no reason to expect anything was wrong the owner can not do anything to us. They can only go after Sam and his company.

We have been able to pay taxes on the car becasue we have a copy of the register book and it was imported into Thailand legally. We also have insurance on the car, I think "someone" might try to steal it.

Sam has put himself in a tricky spot as in about 6 months if he does not give us back the money he goes to jail. Also we have no obligation to give him back the car and honestly it might be criminal for us to do so as we now know he is not the owner. So assuming we get the money we then go to the police and try to find and contact the true owner of the car. This clearly could take a while.

The other option is that Sam just gives us the book, however this is clearly something he is unable to do or he would not have paid a lawyer to fight this in court.

Anyway it is interesting to see what will happen. Glad he is finally getting some really pressure put on him.

Do you worry that this Sam would leave Thailand given he has many legal issues and I think you mentioned he is not a Thai national? Or do you simply just keep the car in that case?