How safe is 800,000 baht in any/all Thai banks for retirement visa?

[thailiketoo]

Google images "facta bank form Thailand" if you want a picture of the request for taxpayer ID number.

Edited November 22, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Gumballl]

(I'm not American.)

...

As far as US taxes on the interest is concerned, would that not also depend on whether or not you were out of the US for a certain period of time ? For example, a lot of the contractors over here are not taxed on their earnings, as long as they don't spend more than 35 days per year in the US. If you were in Thailand for more than 330 days/year, would you have to pay (US) taxes at all ?

...

I love the first sentence above (about not being an American). It lends proof that some of the information you have written is not quite factual.

From the IRS website:

If you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien of the United States and you live abroad, you are taxed on your worldwide income. However, you may qualify to exclude from income up to an amount of your foreign earnings that is adjusted annually for inflation ($91,500 for 2010, $92,900 for 2011, $95,100 for 2012, and $97,600 for 2013). In addition, you can exclude or deduct certain foreign housing amounts.

In summary, regardless of where the US citizen resides, if deriving income from employment or other means (e.g. investments), they still have to file taxes each year. They may have the option of claiming deductions on their tax liability so that they can minimize the actual amount they may owe.

[toho]

a: if money not needed for a longer period, then put it on a fixed deposit (now 11 months= about 2,8% - 15% tax).

b: every bank account balance is guaranteed by the Thai state for at least 1 million THB.

c: you can use the fixed account for obtaining the bank letter, stating you have 800k THB in your account, necessary for retirement visa extension.

[ScotBkk]

OP, you asked some quesitons:

How might it be lost, taken, stolen, etc...?

Ans: Lax personal banking security like letting someone else know/get your debit card PIN. Losing your debit card and the bad guy who finds it goes on a shopping spree. Your debit card getting skimmed. Falling in lust/love and your money getting took through kisses and hugs and ????? Similar type stuff which could occur most anywhere in the world including the U.S. of A. Sure, there is more banking consumer protection laws in the U.S., but they still don't protect you from everything like kisses and hugs....and stupidity (not to imply anything).

How to best protect?

Ans: Maintaining good personal banking security (i.e., keep your PIN to yourself, strong ibanking password, treat your debit card like cash, etc). Try not to allow lust/love to cause a lapse in your personal banking security. You can also open an account with "no debit" card or ibanking which means the only way to get your money is "you" show up a the branch with your passbook and passport. Or open two bank accounts, one with debit card and one without...and keep the account with debit card access at a lower level...recharge it as necessary by ibanking/ATM transfer from your account with no debit card...That's what I do. If you want a debit card with a "chip" for better anti-skimming protection, then get a Bangkok Bank Be1St Smart Debit Card (fancy name for their chipped debit card compared to their regular magnetic strip debit card). Other Thai banks have not came out with chipped debit cards yet...all Thai banks do have chipped credit cards mostly but all Thai banks do not chipped debit cards (only Bangkok Bank). Your deposits in banks is also covered/insured by the Thai govt up to Bt50M right now; possibly going to Bt1M in a couple of years.

How is this being tracked by the US govt, irs, facta, etc...

Ans: All Thai banks now have FATCA agreements with the IRS since around Apr 14, which means each year they may report banking info on your to the IRS like interest earned, amount on deposit, etc. And they are still opening accounts for Americans as before...ignore the Chicken Little posts....it's just Americans have a couple extra easy forms to complete now (and maybe just in one combo form)...one is a questionnaire asking about citizenship and one is a W-9 Tax Payers Identification form to obtain your social security number....a W-9 form you have no doubt fill out quite a few times in your lifetime with your employer, bank, mutual fund, etc.

Anyone been penalized for NOT reporting it to the USA govt once a year/tax time?

Ans: Who knows. Up to you if you want to ignore the law and face the possible consequences. Just file your yearly FBAR report and report the interest earned on your tax return...why be looking over your shoulder all the time for Uncle Sam/that IRS letter showing up in the mail.

Any alternatives?

Ans: if you don't need the Bt800K for day-to-day living expenses, just put it in a Thai bank traditional fixed savings account where you can earn around 3% right now, which is a lot higher than what you can get in a U.S. bank right now. A Thai govt 15% withholding tax is applied to the interest earned, but you can get a refund easy enough from the local tax revenue office...several threads on this subject. Or put the money in a Thai bank "hybrid" fixed saving account that will earn around 2 to 2.5%, no Thai tax withholding unless you go over Bt20K interest earned per year (then just do the refund thing), and you can still access the money a couple times per month without interest penalty like with a traditional fixed account. I have both types of fixed accounts (traditional and hybrid), but I keep the Bt800K in a traditional fixed savings account due to the higher interest earned. I consider it my emergency money like I need big money "now/today" in Thailand and also use it each year for my retirement extension of stay source of income...costs me Bt100 at Bangkok Bank for the income letter...I get it the morning of my extension applicaiton...takes about 10 minutes to get; in my book sure beats the embassy letter route that cost $50/Bt1,600, associated trip to the embassy, etc.

Excuse me. Your not the author of World At War by any chance !!!! That saga was pretty elongated as well ..

[TravelerEastWest]

It could be stolen by bank employees but very, very low chance.

Best method of protection is to open an account without an ATM card and with ZERO involvement of any Thai g/f, wife or partner you may have.

If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers.

The best alternative is the 65,000 Baht a month option via affidavit from the U.S. Embassy.

Last year I forgot to keep money in a Thai bank just before my extension and the required amount was around 40,000 per month.

I am American has something changed to require 65,000 this year for a visa extension? Or is that amount for your work permit?

[fey]

possibly claimed or frozen from complications in country. lawsuits, courts, taxes, business deals gone wrong, marraiges gone wrong ...

i would never keep significant assets, like 401k or large stock accojnts and that sort of thing in a thai bank. it's safer in my home country for me.

in the us at least there are many more safeguards against creditors or anyone seizing assets. it must go through court.

not sure what the process is in thailand but i'm not interested in figuring it out not even knowing the language.

he's not talking about losing his PIN number you pinheads. get a brain. he's referring to large scale seizure or loss of funds. not gf taking pin number shich is the only think your brain can understand.

Edited November 22, 2014 by fey

[MANICMINER]

I have the 800k in SCB for the imm.retirement visa. What worries me is would I be able to make ATM withdrawals if I returned to the UK.Most people say there is no problem because it is a Mastercard but others have had their card rejected.In the UK my "local" SCB bank is 6,000 miles away in Chiang Mai.

Check on the back of your card: if it has a Link Plus or Cirrus logo, you should have no problems.

[thailiketoo]

possibly claimed or frozen from complications in country. lawsuits, courts, taxes, business deals gone wrong, marraiges gone wrong ...

i would never keep significant assets, like 401k or large stock accojnts and that sort of thing in a thai bank. it's safer in my home country for me.

in the us at least there are many more safeguards against creditors or anyone seizing assets. it must go through court.

not sure what the process is in thailand but i'm not interested in figuring it out not even knowing the language.

Ha, ha, ha. I have 3 ex wives who live in the USA. My money would be safer in a soi dogs collar on Soi Buakhow than a US Bank.

I used to get sued once a year for some fictional claim or other by one of my ex's in in the USA. Thailand for 10 years not one time.

[mrfaroukh]

Put it in fix deposit, you get better interest as well as you have no ATM for possible fraud

[connda]

You need to file a FinCen Report 114 or FBAR each year by June 15 of each calendar year. You can do that online. I wrote up the linked information earlier this year.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/708551-filing-the-fincen-report-114-fbar-online/#entry7521337

Hope this helps regarding what you need to do if you're worried about FATCA banking requirements.

[MJP]

Let's steady down a bit. There's been a couple of really nasty posts made that had to be removed. Please don't assume you know about someone's private life.

[beechguy]

It could be stolen by bank employees but very, very low chance.

Best method of protection is to open an account without an ATM card and with ZERO involvement of any Thai g/f, wife or partner you may have.

If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers.

The best alternative is the 65,000 Baht a month option via affidavit from the U.S. Embassy.

Last year I forgot to keep money in a Thai bank just before my extension and the required amount was around 40,000 per month.

I am American has something changed to require 65,000 this year for a visa extension? Or is that amount for your work permit?

40k per month for extensions based on marriage, 65K per month for extensions based on retirement. No, nothing has changed.

[Suradit69]

It could be stolen by bank employees but very, very low chance.

Best method of protection is to open an account without an ATM card and with ZERO involvement of any Thai g/f, wife or partner you may have.

If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers.

The best alternative is the 65,000 Baht a month option via affidavit from the U.S. Embassy.

"If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers."

This myth continues to be spread. Virtually all Thai banks are FATCA compliant. They may not want to open some investment account for you, but for the standard savings account there is no legal problem and nothing onerous for them once they've established compliance.

Branches with few farang customers or counter clerks who figure you're going to be an annoying customer may not want you, but all the major Thai banks will accept farang (and even American) accounts at some/most of their branches.

O/P: As far as fraud or theft is concerned, if you plan to retire in Thailand but are getting started with some xenophobic fear of businesses that you will need to deal with on a regular basis, you're going have a tough time here surrounded by all these "foreigners."

It's far more likely that American or European banks will defraud, embezzlor nickle & dime their customers or collapse than Thai banks.

[Time Traveller]

possibly claimed or frozen from complications in country. lawsuits, courts, taxes, business deals gone wrong, marraiges gone wrong ...

i would never keep significant assets, like 401k or large stock accojnts and that sort of thing in a thai bank. it's safer in my home country for me.

in the us at least there are many more safeguards against creditors or anyone seizing assets. it must go through court.

not sure what the process is in thailand but i'm not interested in figuring it out not even knowing the language.

he's not talking about losing his PIN number you pinheads. get a brain. he's referring to large scale seizure or loss of funds. not gf taking pin number shich is the only think your brain can understand.

Your biases are misleading you.

Having worked in litigation and debt collection in both Thailand and USA, I can tell you for a fact it is much much easier in the USA for a creditor to get a judgement to seize your accounts than it is in Thailand. Yes it may take several years to go through the courts, but whether you are even aware of the unpaid debts or not, the creditor can easily trace your accounts by SSN or even place liens on other properties such as real estate all over debts as low as $1000 or more, and judgement can be awarded without requiring the creditor to appear in court.

In Thailand the only bank account seizures are in cases such as drug or money laundering crimes.

Frankly, if you are a dead beat then you should be more comfortable with cash in a Thai bank than with cash in an American bank.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Time Traveller

[williet98248]

The best alternative is the 65,000 Baht a month option via affidavit from the U.S. Embassy.

Anybody out there know what is required to get this affidavit from the U.S. Embassy???

would a letter from my company stating my monthly salary or show my pay stubbs,yearly w2 etc (over 65,000 Baht a month) be ok to show as proof of income?

Then i could use this affidavit for Thai immigration/visa applications???

instead of the 800,000 thb requirement ?

The U.S. embassy will not ask for that proof as you are swearing in the affidavit (and subject to the possible penalties of lying on the affidavit) that what you state on the affidavit is true....they are taking your word for it. However, but, immigration may ask for proof in addition to the affidavit....and if the proof doesn't satisfy them then the affidavit worthless. From posts some immigration offices do ask for proof sometimes....and I sure don't know what may trigger them to ask for proof.

Never asked by Immigration in Phuket for proof of income. The Affidavit has always been sufficient. They take a copy of my credit card though. You can get the Income affidavit from the US Embassy, Bangkok or the US Consular Outreach when it visits your area. You can check the US Embassy for the schedule to your area. They usually visit two to four times a year.

[arkom]

If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers.

I'm sure you can reference numerous ThaiVisa posts for folks who have been refused Thai bank accounts because they are American--NOT!! Sure, you can find quite a few posts of farangs who had a hard time finding a branch that would open an account for them, but these farangs were of various nationalities and just ran up against the age old problem that some Thai bank branches are not farang friendly....just don't want their business. Fortunately, most branches are not like that.

Oh, by the way, I'm American and since FATCA has been around I've opened a bank account at Bangkok Bank and Krungsri Bank....just a couple extra easy forms to complete. You can find quite a few of such posts from Americans in the variety of Chicken Little threads regarding FATCA.

Could you offer what banks you found the easiest to work with and what documentation they might require ? Thank you in advance.

Bangkok Bank, Kaiskorn Bank and Siam Commerical Bank (SCB) seem to be the ones most farangs go with based on posts I read on ThaiVisa, but you still see plenty of farangs going with many other Thai banks. I have accounts with Bangkok Bank and Krungsri Bank...happy with both. My wife who is dual citizen (American and Thai) also has an account with KrungThai Bank...works just fine. Bangkok Bank also has special, lower cost methods for some nationalities to transfer money from their home country bank to a Bangkok Bank account...like for Americans Bangkok Bank is the only Thai bank with the ability to accomplish low cost inbound ACH transfers....that can reduce a person's money transfer fees a lot in comparison to most pricey SWIFT fees.

In terms of documentation needed: just your passport and preferably a work permit or long term visa; however, but, plenty will open accounts with just a tourist visa or the 30 day entry stamp you get at the airport. It will vary from branch to branch....most are farang friendly, but some seem to just not want farang business. If one branch turns you down, just walk down the soi and try the next branch.

Curious to know about your wife, I am also dual citizen (Thai/American), is she allowed to open all types of accounts? I have no problems opening a savings of fixed interest accounts.

But when it comes to ones that are tax free, was told I can not open it.

On side note, the FATCA form is required for anyone opening a bank account, Thai citizens included.

Edited November 22, 2014 by arkom

[CMBob]

Some good information and a few posts with bad information.

As for opening a bank account, yes, the banks are now requiring US citizens to fill out a couple of forms, one of which includes your social security number. Easy to fill out the forms....no problem at all.

As for earnings which are excludable from income, that only applies to wages....so, yes, a US citizen is required to report interest income earned in a Thai bank on his/her US income tax return. No big deal, you'll earn 2-3 times as much in a Thai bank than you will in a US bank.

As noted repeatedly, the Thai government is essentially insuring your accounts here (25 million baht but currently slated to drop to 1 million baht in 2016 - but I'll bet a few baht that, like before, that amount will be increased before the "slated" drop ever occurs).

If you at any one moment during a given tax year have more than $10,000 (US) value in a bank here, you're required to file the FBAR with Treasury by sometime in June of the next year....and you can now only file that online. Very easy to do. And, if you have at any moment in a tax year have $50,000 (US) value in a bank here, you're also required to file another form with your income tax return the following year. Again, very easy to do.

As for the 15% that is withheld on some time deposits here in Thailand, you can get all that back if you are not earning any other income (mainly wages) here in Thailand. Fairly easy to do.

I do the 800k deal here for several reasons: (1) I earn a hell of a lot more interest here than in the US on the same amount; (2) I consider it a source of ready cash in case an emergency arises and I really need it; and (2) I'd rather pay my bank 200 baht for the annual bank letter than pay 2000+ baht to the consulate for their notarization.

[PMZ]

It could be stolen by bank employees but very, very low chance.

Best method of protection is to open an account without an ATM card and with ZERO involvement of any Thai g/f, wife or partner you may have.

If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers.

The best alternative is the 65,000 Baht a month option via affidavit from the U.S. Embassy.

"If you are American, you will find it more difficult to open an account. Thai banks may have to report details to American agencies if requested. This is onerous for Thai banks so they prefer to avoid U.S. customers."

This myth continues to be spread. Virtually all Thai banks are FATCA compliant. They may not want to open some investment account for you, but for the standard savings account there is no legal problem and nothing onerous for them once they've established compliance.

Branches with few farang customers or counter clerks who figure you're going to be an annoying customer may not want you, but all the major Thai banks will accept farang (and even American) accounts at some/most of their branches.

O/P: As far as fraud or theft is concerned, if you plan to retire in Thailand but are getting started with some xenophobic fear of businesses that you will need to deal with on a regular basis, you're going have a tough time here surrounded by all these "foreigners."

It's far more likely that American or European banks will defraud, embezzlor nickle & dime their customers or collapse than Thai banks.

Thanks to Suradit, a very sensible and rational response. Seemingly, sensible and rational are rare on this forum.

If the op is worried about the stability of Thai banks, choose a reputable one and you have as much chance of default as in any other county.

Any other concerns are valid in any bank in any country.

I have been here 11 years and with the exception of dull boring banking processes face to face, all other Banking matters are totally at international standards.

Internet banking here varies in ease terms, but basically you will get your money out easily.

I use SCB and Kriungsri and both are great. I used UOB in the past and found their Internet Banking archaic, but otherwise OK.

Edited November 22, 2014 by PMZ

[Torrens54]

Probably a lot safer than some of your American Banks.

Didn't a number of them have to be "bailed out" not so long ago, as they were about to Go Bust?

If you think your money isn't safe in a Thai Bank, I suggest you run home to Mommy in Obama Land and get her to stash it under her pillow for you.

[SheungWan]

Probably safer than in a Western bank.

Just ask customers of the Bank of Cyprus. Jacked for up to 80% of their deposits when the troika bailed out the country's banking system.

Cyprus banks on a black money planet of their own. Dodgy money chasing high interest rates and sloshed over to Greece. No tears please.

As for Thai banks, well the OP could decide to hold his 800k in Standard Chartered or Citibank if he wanted a Western flavoured bank in Thailand.

[jacko45k]

I have had a deposit for many years and have no worries as to the security wrt within the bank.

Doing silly things like sending a recent TGF off to the ATM for you might make it more risky.

Bangkok Bank has chip embedded technology to eliminate the skimming worry.

As to how the bank/USA IRS situation is, well that should be answered by those from the 'land of the free'.

[Laza 45]

I think the best advice you have had is to get a document stating your income and get it certified at your embassy .. just take it in and they will stamp it for you.. if your pension is short of the 65,000/month another document stating your cash holdings can make up the difference... no need to have money in a Thai bank.. Some countries will do the verification online.. I don't know what the US Embassy does but with the Australian Embassy I have to front up in person.. My pension is just short of the 65k.. depending on exchange rates.. my $$ is in an investment fund in OZ.. a letter from my fund does the trick.. From the posts I've read it seem the bar is higher or lower depending on what immigration office you go to.. I use Sakon Nakon..and they are good..

[kerrysum]

I would say to get rid of FATCA, it is only beginning, and was created by the treasury department of the United States. And mind you without the blessings of Our elected officials. Remember one thing, it can be changed at any time.... Simply another law passed, without full divulgence of what is behind it...... any questions? Do some research...... Just my thoughts....

[hhgz]

Have you ever read where money was stolen from a bank, and an individual depositor lost money? No. Worry about something else.

[PhillyBoy]

Exactly as another post said, if you are American then you don't need the 800K in the Bank if it is a Retirement Visa.

Just go to the Embassy or if in Pattaya or other locations find out when the American Embassy will be visiting a place near you and get the Affidavit signed there indicating that you have at least $2500 monthly income. Just an Affidavit.....no proof needed....just swear to it. Sign it and take it to Immigration office and get your Retirement Visa. That simple.

[akentryan]

Krungthai Bank was paying 4% for 60 months on a fixed deposit with interest paid monthly. Report the 800,000 annually to the USA on the form for bank deposits in excess of $10,000. Include the interest.on your US Income Tax Return and get a credit for the tax deducted. At year end, get a form from your Thai bank branch and file a Thai Income Tax Return and get the 15% tax deducted back. This means you would also have to report the tax refund in the subsequent year on your US tax return. Been banking here since 1986 and have never had a problem. Be careful what ATM machines you use as some in isolated locations have been used for data skimming. If you need help with form numbers or how to report it on your US return let me know.

[Eneukman]

I've had an account with Bangkok Bank for 10 years now and have never had a problem. Whenever I make a withdrawal at an ATM, I always take a slip afterwards showing the balance on my account so any discrepancy would be picked up immediately.

One word of caution about failing to report the account details or the interest paid on the account to the appropriate authorities. I used to deal with the administration of estates of people who had died. Most of these people had lived in the UK but occasionally we would get an estate where someone had died in Scotland but had for some reason was in receipt of an American Social Security pension. One such individual had failed to complete and American income tax return and we, as her executors, were required to submit American tax returns for the a number of previous years (I forget just how many).

Alan

[Pib]

I would say to get rid of FATCA, it is only beginning, and was created by the treasury department of the United States. And mind you without the blessings of Our elected officials. Remember one thing, it can be changed at any time.... Simply another law passed, without full divulgence of what is behind it...... any questions? Do some research...... Just my thoughts..

FATCA created without the blessings of our elected officials!? The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act was debated and passed into law by our elected officials in Congress. So, not only did FATCA have the blessings of the majority of our elected officials those elected officials are ultimately responsible for FATCA even though many will no doubt play stupid over what they voted into law in order to win reelection. Many in Congress play stupid really well.

[thailiketoo]

Write down the amount of money in your wallet and put it in a safe place before you go to sleep.

[Robert24]

Suggest you only open a passbook savings account, no ATM card and no Internet banking. This way you can avoid the ATM and Internet scammers. Otherwise I would regularly check the balance on the account by updating the passbook.

Yes so basically, take your banking back to the Dark Ages.

Beat ATM skimmers - Only use ATMs in busy locations or inside branches

Beat internet scammers - Don't log in to your account using unfamiliar devices like those in internet cafes

Fair point about dark ages. But it's a question what is more important to you, security of your money or your convenience. I'd seriously recommend not using an ATM card unless it's chip based. Busy locations and bank branches won't help you, plenty of cases where it happened inside malls, right outside bank branches etc. Probably skimmers like busy locations.

The effort and headache to claim your money back once it happens to you is far greater than going to withdraw money at the bank teller with your passbook. The problem here is that ATM security is in the dark ages hence why so many skimmers come to Thailand.

About Internet banking: the key here really is to make sure your bank has a solid 2FA process. 1FA is risky and many banks and brokers here still work this way.

Hope this helps. Obviously up to everyone themselves what their priorities are.