Israel says it broke up Hamas terror plot

[Ulysses G.]

What about the fact that Palestinian are being murdered every day in Gaza, why dont the media report those stories.

Probably because it is Palestinians killing Palestinians and has nothing to do with Israel. Israel strikes from time to time when they have become fed up with terrorist attacks, but the day to day stuff is usually politically motivated violence against each other.

[konying]

Hamas were elected in to power replacing the Fatah party, but in spite of Hamas’ electoral victory, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah, initially refused to surrender control of the government to his party’s rival.

Having finally seized political power in Gaza, Hamas quickly exerted control over the region’s infrastructure, helping run food banks, schools, and hospitals. This increased Hamas’ popularity among Palestinians and helped to cement the party’s legitimacy as the leader of Gaza.

Ive said it over and over, one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, the pro Israelis among us always seem to forget the root cause of this conflict, The illegal occupation and colonisation of the Palestinan people, it's that simple.

When you target civilians and civilians only, it makes you a terrorist,, when you terrorize your own people it makes you a terrorist but again do not let facts get in a way of arab lies.

stick with your freedom fighter version, it has done well in the past.

Below are some great examples of your freedom fighters.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/22/hamas-shoots-18-palestinians-accused-of-spying-for-israel_n_5699163.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e49_1353437540

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-claims-execution-of-informants-for-israel/

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-08-22/dozens-watch-public-executions-in-gaza-outside-mosque/

http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10604:pchr-calls-for-stopping-extra-judicial-executions-in-gaza&catid=36:pchrpressreleases&Itemid=194

Ok so lets break down your post. When you target civilians and civilians only it makes you a terrorist. You could say this about Israel also, you are not stupid so look at the mortality rates and also look at what the criteria according to Israel is for someone actually being labelled a militant or terrorist. Does walking down the wrong street at the wrong time make you a terrorist? According to Israel it does.

When you terrorise your own people it makes you a terrorist, so the biggest terrorist in the world is obviously America then! Them poor Americans are in such a state of terror they dont know if theyre coming or going, whipped up to a frenzy so there government can do anything they want with the consent of the masses. Think they are still looking for the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

i can also post Israeli attrocities if you want, including blowing up kids on the beach, Hotel David massacre, Sniping kids paying football on roofs in Gaza by IDF. But they only get taken down. So a pointless futile exercise, much the same as discussing this conflict with Pro Israeli apologists.

Not only you could, but you would say any rubbish about Israel, whether its true or not is another matter.

Ans the truth is Israel DOES not target civilians, IF Israel did, there would be Gazza no more.

[bigjules007]

What about the fact that Palestinian are being murdered every day in Gaza, why dont the media report those stories.

Probably because it is Palestinians killing Palestinians and has nothing to do with Israel. Israel strikes from time to time when they have become fed up with terrorist attacks, but the day to day stuff is usually politically motivated violence against each other.

Links pertaining to your post regarding Palestinians killing Palestinians on a daily basis please.

Or is it the usual propaganda nonsense.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

When was the last time you checked? Decades ago? Gaza is most definitely occupied as defined by international law and the UN.

Please keep up, you're years behind.

If Gazza is occupied than you might want to look up definition of what occupation means, but as usual do not let facts get in a way of your lies

Actually I'd have to say that Gaza is occupied. Not by Israel but by the international terrorist organization known as Hamas.

Comments like this is proof of the effectiveness of Western Medias twisted and Pro Zionist portrayal of the illegal occupation/colonisation of the Palestinian people.

It is increasingly understood that the word "terrorist", which by the way has no agreed definition, is so subjective as to be devoid of any inherent meaning and that it is commonly abused by governments and others who apply it to whomever or whatever they hate in the hope of demonising their adversaries, thereby discouraging and avoiding rational thought and discussion and, frequently, excusing their own illegal and immoral behaviour.

Netanyahu's assertion that Hamas "calls for the destruction of Israel" requires rational analysis as well.

He is not the only guilty party in this regard. The mainstream media in the West habitually attaches the phrase "pledged to the destruction of Israel" to each first mention of Hamas, almost as though it were part of Hamas' name.

Wow! Impressive. Hats of to you. Finally somebody who really has all the background details on this conflict (which I obviously don't). Good you joined this discussion.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Hamas were elected in to power replacing the Fatah party, but in spite of Hamas’ electoral victory, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah, initially refused to surrender control of the government to his party’s rival.

Having finally seized political power in Gaza, Hamas quickly exerted control over the region’s infrastructure, helping run food banks, schools, and hospitals. This increased Hamas’ popularity among Palestinians and helped to cement the party’s legitimacy as the leader of Gaza.

Ive said it over and over, one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, the pro Israelis among us always seem to forget the root cause of this conflict, The illegal occupation and colonisation of the Palestinan people, it's that simple.

When you target civilians and civilians only, it makes you a terrorist,, when you terrorize your own people it makes you a terrorist but again do not let facts get in a way of arab lies.

stick with your freedom fighter version, it has done well in the past.

Below are some great examples of your freedom fighters.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/22/hamas-shoots-18-palestinians-accused-of-spying-for-israel_n_5699163.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e49_1353437540

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-claims-execution-of-informants-for-israel/

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-08-22/dozens-watch-public-executions-in-gaza-outside-mosque/

http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10604:pchr-calls-for-stopping-extra-judicial-executions-in-gaza&catid=36:pchrpressreleases&Itemid=194

Ok so lets break down your post. When you target civilians and civilians only it makes you a terrorist. You could say this about Israel also, you are not stupid so look at the mortality rates and also look at what the criteria according to Israel is for someone actually being labelled a militant or terrorist. Does walking down the wrong street at the wrong time make you a terrorist? According to Israel it does.

When you terrorise your own people it makes you a terrorist, so the biggest terrorist in the world is obviously America then! Them poor Americans are in such a state of terror they dont know if theyre coming or going, whipped up to a frenzy so there government can do anything they want with the consent of the masses. Think they are still looking for the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

i can also post Israeli attrocities if you want, including blowing up kids on the beach, Hotel David massacre, Sniping kids paying football on roofs in Gaza by IDF. But they only get taken down. So a pointless futile exercise, much the same as discussing this conflict with Pro Israeli apologists.

Could you share with us 'your twenty cents' on what is the way out of this conflict? Thanks.

[Ulysses G.]

Wow! Impressive. Hats of to you. Finally somebody who really has all the background details on this conflict (which I obviously don't). Good you joined this discussion.

He knows nothing about the conflict. He constantly copies articles without giving credit to the REAL writer or a link to the material. This is PLAGIARISM.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/netanyahu-destruction-israel-mant-2014547543645520.html

[Ulysses G.]

What about the fact that Palestinian are being murdered every day in Gaza, why dont the media report those stories.

Probably because it is Palestinians killing Palestinians and has nothing to do with Israel. Israel strikes from time to time when they have become fed up with terrorist attacks, but the day to day stuff is usually politically motivated violence against each other.

Links pertaining to your post regarding Palestinians killing Palestinians on a daily basis please.

Day to day meaning on a routine basis, not "daily". YOU are the one that said "Palestinian are being murdered every day in Gaza", not me. Why don't YOU provide links to prove your foolsih claim.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Seastallion]

When was the last time you checked? Decades ago? Gaza is most definitely occupied as defined by international law and the UN.

Please keep up, you're years behind.

If Gazza is occupied than you might want to look up definition of what occupation means, but as usual do not let facts get in a way of your lies

Actually I'd have to say that Gaza is occupied. Not by Israel but by the international terrorist organization known as Hamas.

Comments like this is proof of the effectiveness of Western Medias twisted and Pro Zionist portrayal of the illegal occupation/colonisation of the Palestinian people.

It is increasingly understood that the word "terrorist", which by the way has no agreed definition, is so subjective as to be devoid of any inherent meaning and that it is commonly abused by governments and others who apply it to whomever or whatever they hate in the hope of demonising their adversaries, thereby discouraging and avoiding rational thought and discussion and, frequently, excusing their own illegal and immoral behaviour.

Netanyahu's assertion that Hamas "calls for the destruction of Israel" requires rational analysis as well.

He is not the only guilty party in this regard. The mainstream media in the West habitually attaches the phrase "pledged to the destruction of Israel" to each first mention of Hamas, almost as though it were part of Hamas' name.

Well said.

I make one observation though; You have said that no Israeli government has ever stated what it's vision is...that may be so, but the current ruling party has stated quite clearly in it's manifesto that it's vision is to have all the land from the river to the sea, ie to have no Palestine at all. The Palestine-demonisers often talk about the anti-semites who want an end to the existence of Israel.....yet here we have the ruling political party of Israel saying exactly the same thing about Palestine.

I suggest that the calls from a bunch of radicals be taken far less seriously than the calls from the ruling party of a well armed, well financed, aggressive and careless of the law nation.

[Ulysses G.]

HE did not "say" anything. The article that he cut and pasted - without giving credit to the REAL writer or a link to the material - did.

http://www.aljazeera...7543645520.html

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been edited as per:

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[Johpa]

It is a pity Hamas could not break up Israel.

Of course if that happens then Jordan reclaims the West Bank and Jerusalem and would probable extend to the coast, Syria would of course take the Golan and probable onto Haifa, Egypt of course would retake all of Sinai including Gaza, and Lebanon would move south as well. So the destruction of Israel results in the inevitable destuction of the Palestinian myth as well.

[Seastallion]

It is a pity Hamas could not break up Israel.

Of course if that happens then Jordan reclaims the West Bank and Jerusalem and would probable extend to the coast, Syria would of course take the Golan and probable onto Haifa, Egypt of course would retake all of Sinai including Gaza, and Lebanon would move south as well. So the destruction of Israel results in the inevitable destuction of the Palestinian myth as well.

You make a very good point. Very good.

And I daresay if some chap from the West can conceive of it, Hamas can too. The claims that Hamas will try to annihilate Israel are unfounded fear mongering.

[Ulysses G.]

The claims that Hamas will try to annihilate Israel are unfounded fear mongering.

That is not what they say regularly in public or in their charter. If someone tells you repeatedly that they intend to destroy you - especially well known terrorists - it is always more prudent to take them at their word

Edited November 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[arjunadawn]

Or perhaps blaming Israel for Palestinian terrorism is racist against Arabs?

Did it ever occur to anyone how much further the peace process would have been by now if the Palestinians only used NON-VIOLENT protest methods?

Part of the explanation lies in the profound influence that the anti-Zionist ideology (a system of demonising ideas and representations about Israel and the Jews) now exercises in our culture. At the heart of the ideology is a deeply buried, often unconscious, assumption about the dichotomous natures of Israelis and Palestinians that warps our understanding of the conflict. Here it is:Palestinians (and Arabs in general) do not have agency and choice, and so cannot be held accountable and responsible. Israelis do and can; always, and exclusively.

Palestinians are understood as a driven people, dominated by circumstance and emotion, lacking choice, below the age of responsibility, never to be held accountable. Israelis are the opposite; masters of all circumstances, rational and calculating, the root cause of everything, responsible for everything.

It is, palpably, an Orientalist view of the Palestinians as the Other, except this time they are affirmed as noble savages. Its a bit racist, to be honest. For example, the Liberal Democrat David Ward MP tweetedthat the Palestinian synagogue terrorists had been "driven to madness" - which not only removes agency from them but also sanity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11243168/Blaming-Israel-for-Palestinian-violence-is-racist-it-denies-that-Arabs-are-moral-agents.html

Brilliant! This precisely illustrates the fairly racist views so many Palestinian and Muslim apologists actually have: implicit in so much defense of the Arab barbarism in the Mideast is the presumption that, as victims, they aren't expected to behave as other nation state actors, or remotely conform to any standard of civilized behavior. Even excepting the premise they are victims of aggression the local Arabs have no standard of expected behavior. This western tolerance conceals that more cannot be expected of them. Woe to the Israelis who think this will changed when the local Arabs officially obtain a State.

Indeed, holding Palestinians to a lower standard then the rest of the world, and couching their defense in 'culture, religion, victim,' the west legitimizes barbarity and our expectations of them in polity is nil. The bar is now set so low that Hamas, a demonstrable agent of murder, terrorism, mayhem, and citizen genocide, is afforded a voice the west deems legitimate.

I made some observations why the quoted text was decidedly not brilliant earlier. Perhaps you missed the post. Never mind.

Another way to look at it would be the legally recognised "battered wives syndrome". In many jurisdictions, and amongst reasonable people, an abused wife who stabs her husband, even in cold and calculated way not in the heat of an argument, is held to a different standard. Stabbing someone is against the law. Premeditated stabbing is even worse. But a battered wife has an excuse which we reasonable people make allowances for.

Palestinians are battered, cross-generationally. Israel is the abuser. We make allowances. Some. Not total absolution.

Israel is fond of the self-defence excuse. Even to the extent that they call their aggressive army a defence force. Palestine is really in self-defence mode.

I think I actually did miss the post. However, it is clearly not "decided[ly]," by virture of my differing take on it alone. Your analogy to an abused wife, a sort of codependent syndrome, is actually worthy of looking at closely. You may be right; there may be some developments like this now spanning a few generations. Sparked on by real and percieved injustices, intractability, and hopelessness, it just might be true that this social mindset exists. However, to what extent this may be true we are still allowing the victimization label to be worked like a clever tool upon the west, and Israel less so.

When a child is abused and grows up to murder and such the west increasingly mitigates their actions, but they are still, mostly, held accountable. This too is analogus. When wives murder their abusive husbands their sentences may be reduced because of circumstances but they are too often still charges. Society generally holds the slipperly slope of unaccountability to be destructive to society as a whole, notwithstanding very progressive voices.

Again, I do think you and I, at least, can agree that what you describe may be partially or even wholly true (though there are clearly other motivations operating in the arab base). We differ in what we believe is the allowance given from those who implicitly see your point of view. The West is at the point of its allowances for Palestinian grief and heartache that increasingly vile terrorist acts even elicit only a diplomatic rebuke, and no more. All the while the west continues to basically fund lavish lifestyles of the select, hate teaching in the extreme in Palestinian education venues, and the entire economy that gives birth to the more horrible tools of their struggle. Even if we agree that there has been damage to the collective psyche of these people I think its too much to not recognizing we do more harm to all societies by continuely lowering the standard of Palestinians behavior.

[arjunadawn]

Comments like this is proof of the effectiveness of Western Medias twisted and Pro Zionist portrayal of the illegal occupation/colonisation of the Palestinian people.

It is increasingly understood that the word "terrorist", which by the way has no agreed definition, is so subjective as to be devoid of any inherent meaning and that it is commonly abused by governments and others who apply it to whomever or whatever they hate in the hope of demonising their adversaries, thereby discouraging and avoiding rational thought and discussion and, frequently, excusing their own illegal and immoral behaviour.

Netanyahu's assertion that Hamas "calls for the destruction of Israel" requires rational analysis as well.

He is not the only guilty party in this regard. The mainstream media in the West habitually attaches the phrase "pledged to the destruction of Israel" to each first mention of Hamas, almost as though it were part of Hamas' name.

Well said.

I make one observation though; You have said that no Israeli government has ever stated what it's vision is...that may be so, but the current ruling party has stated quite clearly in it's manifesto that it's vision is to have all the land from the river to the sea, ie to have no Palestine at all. The Palestine-demonisers often talk about the anti-semites who want an end to the existence of Israel.....yet here we have the ruling political party of Israel saying exactly the same thing about Palestine.

I suggest that the calls from a bunch of radicals be taken far less seriously than the calls from the ruling party of a well armed, well financed, aggressive and careless of the law nation.

BJ:

I think there is a partial truth to the media overlooking the Palestinian plight as the US media, for one, have been in bed with the Pro Isreal lobby for sometime. However, increasingly as the mainstream media is marginalized and alternative media takes up the palestinian cause more and more voices actually represent the palestinians than previously.

It is simply not true that there is no "agreed" definition for "terrorist." In US, European, and UN guiding documents for such subjects there definitely is a definition. I wont search for it here because you otherwise go on to make a valid observation: the word "terrorist" is frighteningly becoming misued by State actors to malign opponents and groups of people; the US is the most striking example of this. In the US this is so watered down that gradeschool children have been charged with making "terroristic threats." Fair point.

The idea that one can separate Hamas from the words "destruction of Israel" is nonsense. This cannot even pass first glance test. Of course Hamas core reason for being is based on this very thing, "The destruction of Israel." To allow time and lack of better choices to represent the palestinians to mitigate Hamas into a friendly neighborhood political party is folly. Hamas are some of the most sophisitcated terrorists on earth and there is no degree of separation between its political voice and its military wings. If one is ever uncertain about Hamas' intentions perhaps one could visit the Middle East Research Center site and actually listen to the words of the Hamas leaders, both past and present. The media you previously cited continuously attaches such phrases as Hamas' own voice because Hamas repeatedly asserts and reinforces this, notwithstanding the rumour that they have edited their original charter.

SS: If it came to pass that Israel officially asserted it wants all the land from the river to the sea, that would make sense to me because it is, as you may recall, my lonely position that this land title/mass was the original intention and was it to be simply a judicial argument I feel Israel would win the legal claim. However, I cannot see how, practically, it would be a good idea for Israel to do this. Even I, seeing this claim is valid, see no manner it can be exercised without horrible consequences. Irrespective of my thoughts and the emerging polity in Israel who want this land, it is not that simple- even though I assert it is their land (minus the issue with gaza and Golan).

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic, inflammatory, baiting, bickering posts and replies have been removed.

[Thorgal]

The claims that Hamas will try to annihilate Israel are unfounded fear mongering.

That is not what they say regularly in public or in their charter. If someone tells you repeatedly that they intend to destroy you - especially well known terrorists - it is always more prudent to take them at their word

Their charter came after Israeli deportation, confiscation of land, multiple crimes against humanity etc.

If today it's still in their charter it doesn't mean it's every day applicable in 'occupied territory'.

You can't say also that every Palestinian is a terrorist. Only a minority is concentrated on terrorist activities for multiple reasons : personal or non-personal.

I'm not shure if the last plots discovered by Shin Bet are real plots...because they've all being reported by local Jewish media and/or foreign media with serious publication restrictions.

It's also known that Palestinian newspapers are fully depending on Israeli paper and ink...

Edited November 29, 2014 by Thorgal

[Morch]

And these are the people they supposed to sit down and negotiate with.

Israel is no stranger to negotiations with Hamas, albeit indirect ones.

Until the Palestinians sort their own domestic mess, it is hard to tell who is a meaningful partner for negotiations.

It seems somewhat unlikely that this will actually be resolutely decided anytime soon, though, or that the oucome

will spell anything positive for peace prospects.

Of course, it does not mean that the Israeli side is bursting with anticipation to hold negotiations, quite the opposite

when it comes to the current PM.

It bears to keep in mind a saying by Israel's late PM, Rabin: Peace is made with enemies.

[Morch]

This is what happens when Israel makes and breaks treaties. You can only push a group speak far before they become violent.

Or perhaps blaming Israel for Palestinian terrorism is racist against Arabs?

Did it ever occur to anyone how much further the peace process would have been by now if the Palestinians only used NON-VIOLENT protest methods?

Part of the explanation lies in the profound influence that the anti-Zionist ideology (a system of demonising ideas and representations about Israel and the Jews) now exercises in our culture. At the heart of the ideology is a deeply buried, often unconscious, assumption about the dichotomous natures of Israelis and Palestinians that warps our understanding of the conflict. Here it is:Palestinians (and Arabs in general) do not have agency and choice, and so cannot be held accountable and responsible. Israelis do and can; always, and exclusively.

Palestinians are understood as a driven people, dominated by circumstance and emotion, lacking choice, below the age of responsibility, never to be held accountable. Israelis are the opposite; masters of all circumstances, rational and calculating, the root cause of everything, responsible for everything.

It is, palpably, an Orientalist view of the Palestinians as the Other, except this time they are affirmed as noble savages. Its a bit racist, to be honest. For example, the Liberal Democrat David Ward MP tweetedthat the Palestinian synagogue terrorists had been "driven to madness" - which not only removes agency from them but also sanity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11243168/Blaming-Israel-for-Palestinian-violence-is-racist-it-denies-that-Arabs-are-moral-agents.html

Look at a world map from 1947 to now. And then tell me who the invaders are. Israel has been slowly wiping palistine off the map, what should they do? Sit with their thumbs up their butts and take it? Or fight back? I know what I would do. Pick up a gun and fight off the invaders.

Armed resistance against an occupying force would go down much easier if attacks were directed at military and security targets. Attacking civilians is not quite "fighting back", is it?

[Morch]

Or perhaps blaming Israel for Palestinian terrorism is racist against Arabs?

Did it ever occur to anyone how much further the peace process would have been by now if the Palestinians only used NON-VIOLENT protest methods?

Part of the explanation lies in the profound influence that the anti-Zionist ideology (a system of demonising ideas and representations about Israel and the Jews) now exercises in our culture. At the heart of the ideology is a deeply buried, often unconscious, assumption about the dichotomous natures of Israelis and Palestinians that warps our understanding of the conflict. Here it is:Palestinians (and Arabs in general) do not have agency and choice, and so cannot be held accountable and responsible. Israelis do and can; always, and exclusively.

Palestinians are understood as a driven people, dominated by circumstance and emotion, lacking choice, below the age of responsibility, never to be held accountable. Israelis are the opposite; masters of all circumstances, rational and calculating, the root cause of everything, responsible for everything.

It is, palpably, an Orientalist view of the Palestinians as the Other, except this time they are affirmed as noble savages. Its a bit racist, to be honest. For example, the Liberal Democrat David Ward MP tweetedthat the Palestinian synagogue terrorists had been "driven to madness" - which not only removes agency from them but also sanity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11243168/Blaming-Israel-for-Palestinian-violence-is-racist-it-denies-that-Arabs-are-moral-agents.html

Look at a world map from 1947 to now. And then tell me who the invaders are. Israel has been slowly wiping palistine off the map, what should they do? Sit with their thumbs up their butts and take it? Or fight back? I know what I would do. Pick up a gun and fight off the invaders.

I believe it was the Jews that were thrown off their land over 2000 years ago by the arabs. Or at least the then Assyrians.

Well they have been hounded out many times, by the likes of the Romans and Babylonians. But mostly by the arabs.

So there goes your daft statement of endorsement to pick up a gun and fight to take it back, albeit many centuries later.

Hahaha.

I believe someone needs to open his history books again.

[Morch]

And these are the people they supposed to sit down and negotiate with.

Yes, the very people that have had their land stolen and been dispossessed of their country and birthright. I guess anyone in their position would fight back.

I agree many in their position would fight back. I would like to think not everyone would consider attack on civilians "fighting back", though.

[Morch]

It is a pity Hamas could not break up Israel.

Why do you hate Israel so much that you want it destroyed?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Israel as a political entity I despise. I do not hate Jewish people in general. Israel illegally occupies Palestinian land and continues to increase the area of occupation. What are the Palestinian people to do? Israel ignores their pleas for justice and the requests for their land back. Israel ignores the United Nations which says the occupation is illegal.

The Jews of Israel, above all others, should understand the plight and the pain of Palestinians after their experiences after WW2. However they show no compassion or empathy for these oppressed and displaced people.

So, in your world, the Palestinians had nothing to do with how things panned out for them?

And "pleas for justice"? Would these include terrorist attacks?

It is not that Israel if free of sin, obviously. But to have such a one sided view of the situation is both uninformed (at best),

and not very constructive.

One can have empathy for a side without blanket hatred for its rivals.

[Morch]

This is what happens when Israel makes and breaks treaties. You can only push a group speak far before they become violent.

Or perhaps blaming Israel for Palestinian terrorism is racist against Arabs?

Did it ever occur to anyone how much further the peace process would have been by now if the Palestinians only used NON-VIOLENT protest methods?

Part of the explanation lies in the profound influence that the anti-Zionist ideology (a system of demonising ideas and representations about Israel and the Jews) now exercises in our culture. At the heart of the ideology is a deeply buried, often unconscious, assumption about the dichotomous natures of Israelis and Palestinians that warps our understanding of the conflict. Here it is:Palestinians (and Arabs in general) do not have agency and choice, and so cannot be held accountable and responsible. Israelis do and can; always, and exclusively.

Palestinians are understood as a driven people, dominated by circumstance and emotion, lacking choice, below the age of responsibility, never to be held accountable. Israelis are the opposite; masters of all circumstances, rational and calculating, the root cause of everything, responsible for everything.

It is, palpably, an Orientalist view of the Palestinians as the Other, except this time they are affirmed as noble savages. It’s a bit racist, to be honest. For example, the Liberal Democrat David Ward MP tweetedthat the Palestinian synagogue terrorists had been "driven to madness" - which not only removes agency from them but also sanity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11243168/Blaming-Israel-for-Palestinian-violence-is-racist-it-denies-that-Arabs-are-moral-agents.html

As to your question...it's truly laughable. Did it ever occur to you how far the peace process would have gone if Israel never invaded?

As to your quote, that too is laughable. Anti-Zionism is an ideology? A system demonising ideas and representations? Anti-Zionism is not an ideology. It's a stance, and "ideas" of Zionism are in fact the ideology. And and anti-Zionism is a stance that detests the Zionist ideology of complete conquest of The Promised Land, from the river to the sea.

I think it's quite reasonable to consider the idea that the synagogue murderers were indeed driven to madness....just look at what they and their families have been put through for decades. I think many people would have been driven to a psychotic event had they been through a quarter of what those men have been through all their lives. Of course, they may have been just malevolent terrorists....but we'll never know.

Was that actually a shot at posthumous insanity defense?

[Morch]

And these are the people they supposed to sit down and negotiate with.

There is no negotiation with Muslim extremists. The world needs to wake up to this fact.

They truly believe they are on a mission from God.

Fact?

Opinion only.

There are, in fact, negotiations with Muslim extremists. The latest cease fire in Gaza is an example.

More a question if there are examples of a reliable long lasting positive outcome connected with such negotiations.

[mania]

And these are the people they supposed to sit down and negotiate with.

Yes, the very people that have had their land stolen and been dispossessed of their country and birthright. I guess anyone in their position would fight back.

I agree many in their position would fight back.

I would like to think not everyone would consider attack on civilians "fighting back", though.

We would all like to "think" that

Yet what is the reality? Do we go by who has killed the most civilians?

Because we are hard pressed to find a side that has not...whether later to be claimed

collateral damages or say they should not have lived near terrorist that killed "our" civilians.

Or even back to Japan when 60-80,000 civilians were killed instantly

& on purpose....as a supposed means to an end

[Morch]

If Palestine had been an independent country rather than a Euro colony, state of Israel could never have been forced upon them. Should have given them a good slice of Germany as reparations, or perhaps New York, as there were more jews there than anywhere else. But racism and Eurocentrism trumped that. Say whatever you want, but fact remains that land was stolen without consent of the people living there.

Israel has continued to consume the west bank with illegal expansion (they were supposed to withdraw after 67 war.... ). Have returned to Nazi inspired "group punishment mode" of destroying houses of freedom fighters/terrorists (all depends on who you favor) with no trial, no guilt by other family members. Recent proposal in Knesset is for two tier citizenship. I could go on and on, but just let's not pretend Israel has any intention of working out peace agreement with Palestinians. I understand 100% why Palestinians would support radicals: nothing has come from standard diplomatic "let's work this out" approach.

The Palestinians were not always into that diplomatic "let's work it out" approach, and more recently are not even speaking in one voice when it comes to that. Not saying that Israel is blameless, or that it was always for negotiations or even that it always negotiated in good faith. Just that the Palestinian side was not better - there were terrorist attacks (not the freedom fighting stuff), there were refusals to compromise, and there were going back on agreements.

[Morch]

I do not believe a word that comes out of the state of Israel, they are blatant liars who have shown time and time again that they fabricate stories and arrest innocents so as to constantly demonise Hamas to the rest of the world, giving them an excuse and "justification" to attack the Palestinian people time and again.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/israel-gaza-war-netanyahu-hamas-kidnapping.html#

There is even a movie interviewing Ex Shin Bet leaders admitting that this is one of there tactics so as to get the rest of the world on side, well guess what? the rest of the world are beginning to realise what a bunch of liars they actually are, therefore they have to show that they are being "constantly threatened" .

I think i would probably feel a little more threatened by an army firing missiles and shells from tanks, then a few kids throwing stones after Friday prayers.

All governments lie. They do not do so all the time.

All secret services employ misinformation. That does not make everything they say untrue.

For such a suspicious mind, that's quite a display of trust putting that link.

That many of the assertions and allegations made are mistaken or false should not deter you.

The movie alluded to, The Gatekeeprs, (also made into a TV series) is indeed worthwhile to watch.

Of course, it does include a whole lot more than that agenda-fitting morsel, but quite a few issues raised

and answers given are not quite in line with your obvious views, so no surprises there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_%28film%29

It is kinda funny that you do not believe a word they say, and yet believe them when they claim to use

misinformation....

If you're in the car with your kids when a stone hits your windshield...yeah, you sorta feel threatened.

[arjunadawn]

If Palestine had been an independent country rather than a Euro colony, state of Israel could never have been forced upon them. Should have given them a good slice of Germany as reparations, or perhaps New York, as there were more jews there than anywhere else. But racism and Eurocentrism trumped that. Say whatever you want, but fact remains that land was stolen without consent of the people living there.

Israel has continued to consume the west bank with illegal expansion (they were supposed to withdraw after 67 war.... ). Have returned to Nazi inspired "group punishment mode" of destroying houses of freedom fighters/terrorists (all depends on who you favor) with no trial, no guilt by other family members. Recent proposal in Knesset is for two tier citizenship. I could go on and on, but just let's not pretend Israel has any intention of working out peace agreement with Palestinians. I understand 100% why Palestinians would support radicals: nothing has come from standard diplomatic "let's work this out" approach.

Contained within this post is a misunderstanding of recent history. As some who debate here with views different than mine indicated they liked your post I can infer they find it accurate. You did correctly concede Palestine was never a State but then make the common error of stating/impling Israel was a result of WWII. This is factually wrong by a large margin!

Israel does not "consume" the West Bank; the West Bank was part of the parcel that the arabs themselves agreed upon for the Jews as they debated the Mandate as signatories; the arabs were given the other part of the Palestine Mandate, the Hashemite Kingdom and were quite pleased until they realized the Jewish part of the Mandate would actually attract... Jews! Likewise, French Mandates created Lebanon and more. It is utter nonsense to suggest that Lebanon is an illegitimate State. Indeed, no one does. But the Jews? The Jews populated the land they were titled prior to WWII and the West Bank was part of that very land. It was the arabs who reneged, attacked, and occupied the Israeli West Bank until 1967 when Israel again wrestled control of its sovereign territory. The arabs who voluntarily fled (primarily) in 47 returned to occupy the West Bank irrespective of treaty or agreement. In fact, the very act was an act of war and population movement, the very "settling" that detractors state Israel is guilty of.

Don't like that Israel is in the West Bank? Allow your argument to then be consistent by applying a universal- protest the existence of Lebanon as well, or Syria as a State... or Jordan. The West Bank never belonged to any semblance of an entity known as Palestine nor were the inhabitants known collectively as Palestinians.

You otherwise make some troubling but perhaps valid observations regarding the today, and the plight of the local arabs under their current circumstances. In the end history should be instructive but the mess must be cleaned up relative to facts as they exist on the ground- and something must be done regarding the "Palestinians."

I do not dispute that life sucks and a road to self determination seems so difficult, and many have great suffering along the way. But you are correct, there was never a Palestine and you are incorrect, WWII only influenced processes that were long underway to create a Jewish State- in the exact manner as there are multiple muslim states throughout the world. Lastly, when considering the net movement of arabs out of the area in 1947 when asserting "right of return" it should always include reference to the approximately same amount of Jews that were forced out of multiple arab lands and their possessions looted during the same time. I rarely hear mention of the same exact expulsion (in the case of the arabs a majority voluntarily left). The factual result is nearly equal movements of populations.

[MJP]

It is a pity Hamas could not break up Israel.

Why do you hate Israel so much that you want it destroyed?

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could be because it was created using lies and skulduggery and the stealing of other peoples land

how can you justify such blatant criminality?

Is this map accurate? You need to back it up with much more than just that.

[Morch]

...if they say so......it must be true........

Yes, the entire report is about what the Shin Bet "said", "alleged" etc. There is absolutely no substantiation in this report.

Just saying.

I'm not saying the alleged plot and arrests are not real, but it is true that the Israeli propaganda machine has a very big interest in getting the idea across to world media that Israel is a victim of terrorism. They need sympathy for continuing to commit crimes such as collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and increased occupation.

Why did they not offer some substantiation of their claims? I think the journalist thought this too, because he was very careful to make the entire report about what is claimed, not what is observed fact.

I stated recently, after the synagogue murders, that the propaganda machine will be kicking in in a big way.

What sort of substantiation would be accepted? A press conference with someone pointing directly at someone else? A public re-enactment complete with motorcycle helmets?

There are actually quite a lot of details released regarding this case - pictures, names and information of those arrested (at least some, not sure if true for all), there were weapons and explosives caught.

Without stealing the Palestinian's thunder for being an oppressed underdog, Israel is indeed on the receiving end of terrorist attacks (or attempts, at some are foiled). As the arrests occurred on September, a timely propaganda machine would have made use of this information earlier - not after the current tide of Palestine recognition votes in the EU picked up. I am quite sure that regardless of the date this was made public, some would find a "concrete" reason to see it as propaganda.

Now, I do not deny that Israeli politicians use this and similar stories for PR gains, that is almost a global norm (one which the Palestinians follow as well). By itself, it does not necessarily bear on the actual report itself.