Study: Germans have skeptical view of Israel

[arjunadawn]

I'm sorry you're offended. I wrote "is getting more like veiled hate speech", and I stand by that. That you are repulsed by what you perceive as an implication may have more to do with your subconscious than my actual words and their import.

Lets look at some of your sermons, shall we, and observe your almost desperate sincerity that the Muslims are out to convert or kill us all and your desire to convey that message?

That aside, you have not responded to where you get your interpretation of the Q'uran, or why Goldberg's assertions are wrong.

The anecdote you relay is indeed disturbing, and I join with others in condemning whichever Muslim it was that made such an uncouth, undiplomatic, and outright rude statement in the situation. That story does not make for any sort of generalisation, though.

I am not actually offended; I am pretty thick skinned. As you and I go back and forth often, I regret you see this in me. It can fairly be said, "sermo;" ok. I try to distill my convictions through my posts, yes. I am decidedly open to alternative explanations for my convictions. Though, on this issue, no one refutes the obvious- indeed, its a high bar.

I get my interpretation of the koran and hadith from 1), the koran and hadith 2), Bukahri, 3), Sayyid Qutb 4), The Reliance of the Traveler and 5), various and constant streams of news and such that reinforce the peculiar unease I have. My threshold for conviction remains fairly high; I dont easy embrace absolutes as we live in a very relative world. Indeed, even within the "islamic issue" there are many shades of grey, with a considerable portion, perhaps that silent majority, that dont ascribe to the core tenets- but they are not orthodox. Were I muslim would my bona fides be in question? I dare say not. Had I entered the forums touting my islamic credentials few would argue with my take and presume "he must know." Why would the bar be any higher for someone who considered the same information, but declined and rebutted its tenets?

Yes, perhaps in some corner of the rational mind American Muslims being granted a first of its kind service in the Christian National Cathedral and the totally maligning the host, its faith, and its god, is not a generalization. How one reaches the conclusion that this is isolated escapes me, however.

When a person, any person, reads and ponders the words, meaning, commentary, and then related histories of the words and life of the prophet, and then listen to the disassembling of current spokesmen regarding meaning and intent, the disconnect is astounding. Throughout much of the islamic world, if you offered that the surah faatiah had nothing to do with jews and christians they would beat your a__. Only in the ignorant west do we consume that which we want to believe is true.

I hold the relationship of muslims to jews is reflected in the fraternity of Germany's fascist past. The marriage is historic and not contrived. The further Germany slides into multicultural Balkanization increasingly it will become rabidly antisemitic.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/13/us-europe-racism-antisemitism-idUSKCN0IX1KT20141113

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/eu-study-fear-of-anti-semitism-rising-in-seven-european-countries-a-932597.html

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/187713

Multiculturalism in Germany is, as Merkel herself noted, an utter failure. http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2012/08/almost-70-of-criminals-in-berlin-are-of.html

As more non Germans enter the country it will slide further to the right.

[Ulysses G.]

The Jews always cry anti-Semitism, the Palestinians are just as Semitic if not more so, as they are native to the area, unlike the Khazar's.

The dictionary definition of anti-Semitic is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group - nothing to do with the Palestinians. That is semitic as in semitic languages by the way. Being semitic does not imply that they are of the same racial group.

Jews have been living in Israel continuously for over 3,000 years. Most of the Palestinians arrived around the turn of last century from surrounding Arab countries and are not any more "native" than European Jews who arrived at about the same time.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Smurkster]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The Jews always cry anti-Semitism, the Palestinians are just as Semitic if not more so, as they are native to the area, unlike the Khazar's.

The dictionary definition of anti-Semitic is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group - nothing to do with the Palestinians. That is semitic as in semitic languages by the way. Being semitic does not imply that they are of the same racial group.
Jews have been living in Israel continuously for over 3,000 years. Most of the Palestinians arrived around the turn of last century from surrounding Arab countries and are not any more "native" than European Jews who arrived at about the same time.

it might not imply they are from the same racial group per se, but language, yes sir, both part of the Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic Language family

[arjunadawn]

This speech, perhaps somewhat indirectly, perhaps not, addresses how wrong it is to equate Nazi Germany to modern Israel:

I think this speech is a fine example of that connection you speak to on these pages. When one probes a little deeper often it is found this is exactly the motivation. Not always, but often. The "celebrate life rather than mourn death" is such a vital distinguishing feature between the world we are losing and the one that is taking its place. Germany, under the color of multiculturalism, will resurrect her own ghosts.

This is what is chosen under the cover of anti "Israel."

[Jay Sata]

It seems like Israel has a PR problem with Germany. Since Germany is a very powerful country in the EU, they might want to start addressing this problem.

Not just a PR problem with Germany.

Of the 193 member states of the United Nations, 135 (69.9%) have recognised the State of Palestine.Their total population is over 5.5 billion people, equaling 80 percent of the world's population.

[green job]

What happened in Nazi-germany and Europe some 70-80 years ago, resulted in a lot of sympathy for the jewish people. Yet, what's happening now in Israel en Palestine, rapidly takes away that sympathy. Seems like the israelian authorities did not learn from the atrocities done unto them, and treat the palestinians just as bad. Most europeans feel that way, certainly not only the majority of germans.

Was it not for the "just as bad" bit, your post would have been spot on.

Reality check: There is no mass extermination of Palestinians.

Death by gas chamber or death by bomb...just as bad, really.

And as previously discussed, numbers of casualties don't come into it, it's the thought that counts.

Personaly I would much prefer a bomb than to be shut in a room to be slowly gassed by the exhaust from a diesel engine, They also used razor blades set in wood to stop small children escape from certain buildings

What can you say?? Bergen=Belsen RIP Brothers

[fvw53]

Shlomo Sand, professor of History at Tel Aviv University wrote books "The invention of the Jewish People" and "The Invention of the land of Israel"

Basically he brings academic evidence to illustrate that the people claiming to be Jewish to-day are not at all the same people who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago.

It is obvious he considers that the modern Jews (Zionists) started to occupy modern Israel and that they are the real aggressors...

Finally Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University backs up all what Prof Shlomo Sand writes, with his own stunning book : "The Bible Unearthed"

According to Finkelstein the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology

Those who can't import those books can find conferences given by both professors on Youtube.

Don't argue with me : both authors are really not hot headed Arabs writing blogs from a PC in their kitchen : just read their books and the many academic sources they refer to.

In fact if King David, King Solomon, Moses etc...are mythological figures the same way as King Arthur and his Caste of Camelot ..it is not only a problem for the people of Jewish faith but also for those of Christian and Muslim faith.

Sand's views are controversial, and are not by any means considered definitive (the books popularity notwithstanding). Also, many people tend to confuse the arguments he raises (some are quite valid, some are out there), and at the same time disregard Sand's political agenda.

Finkelstein's research is more solid, actually. However, I do not think that the claim made is that "the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology" as such - nothing that simplistic, if not supportive of Jewish folklore and literal interpretations of the bible.

Of course Sand's views are controversial! His views threaten, in particular, Jewish Orthodoxy and also Zionism.

With those two groups disliking what he says, one has to, in all reasonableness, wonder if in fact any controversy is genuine or contrived, and if genuine, based on what facts?

... based on what facts? Mythology is never based on facts.

One can only consider was is possible and what is likely

Is it possible that Moses crossed the Red Sea with 600.000 people and wandered in the desert during 40 years without leaving anything (pottery..) to be checked by archaeologists? It is unlikely...

Is it possible those 600.000 needed 40 years before find their way to the Promised Land. It is unlikely unless you start to read what Prof Ben Shannon of Jerusalem's Hebrew University suggests i.e. that they were "high"

High.pdf

[Jingthing]

The Jews always cry anti-Semitism, the Palestinians are just as Semitic if not more so, as they are native to the area, unlike the Khazar's.

The predictable idiotic objection to the established definition of a word post and even getting a like. OK for you say Jew hating. Clear now bubbie?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[losworld]

If the Palestinians don't want to be "persecuted" they can stop the terrorism and sign a peace treaty. They are the ones who decided to make Israel their enemy.

Israel's nukes don't cause problems. They solve them.

I sure wish you would change your name. I have family who fought under Grant. Sure he was a drunk but not a ridiculous drunk. Let Grant rest in peace. Change your avatar lol.

[Ulysses G.]

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

[arjunadawn]

Shlomo Sand, professor of History at Tel Aviv University wrote books "The invention of the Jewish People" and "The Invention of the land of Israel"

Basically he brings academic evidence to illustrate that the people claiming to be Jewish to-day are not at all the same people who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago.

It is obvious he considers that the modern Jews (Zionists) started to occupy modern Israel and that they are the real aggressors...

Finally Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University backs up all what Prof Shlomo Sand writes, with his own stunning book : "The Bible Unearthed"

According to Finkelstein the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology

Those who can't import those books can find conferences given by both professors on Youtube.

Don't argue with me : both authors are really not hot headed Arabs writing blogs from a PC in their kitchen : just read their books and the many academic sources they refer to.

In fact if King David, King Solomon, Moses etc...are mythological figures the same way as King Arthur and his Caste of Camelot ..it is not only a problem for the people of Jewish faith but also for those of Christian and Muslim faith.

Sand's views are controversial, and are not by any means considered definitive (the books popularity notwithstanding). Also, many people tend to confuse the arguments he raises (some are quite valid, some are out there), and at the same time disregard Sand's political agenda.

Finkelstein's research is more solid, actually. However, I do not think that the claim made is that "the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology" as such - nothing that simplistic, if not supportive of Jewish folklore and literal interpretations of the bible.

Of course Sand's views are controversial! His views threaten, in particular, Jewish Orthodoxy and also Zionism.

With those two groups disliking what he says, one has to, in all reasonableness, wonder if in fact any controversy is genuine or contrived, and if genuine, based on what facts?

... based on what facts? Mythology is never based on facts.

One can only consider was is possible and what is likely

Is it possible that Moses crossed the Red Sea with 600.000 people and wandered in the desert during 40 years without leaving anything (pottery..) to be checked by archaeologists? It is unlikely...

Is it possible those 600.000 needed 40 years before find their way to the Promised Land. It is unlikely unless you start to read what Prof Ben Shannon of Jerusalem's Hebrew University suggests i.e. that they were "high"

In judiac exegesis, "40 years" is thought to be a generation, or a unit of time; not necessarily 40 years.

[Morch]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The Israelis have proved themselves a lot better at fighting and winning and creating a successful country than the Palestinians or their Arab brothers. Fighting them seems to be a losing proposition.

Only until the Iranians get the nukes.

Then we will finally see a different middle east.

If the Iranians fire first then the yanks will have to wipe them out, the same with the Israelis, because the rest of the world just will not let them get away with it no matter what excuse they trot out.

We are joined by another strategic commentator, who seems to have lost his map.

If Iran ever fires nukes on Israel, it might be the end of Israel, and at the same time the end of Palestine.

The USA will wipe Iran out if it wipes out Israel first? Seriously? The USA will kill 70+ million people just like that. Sure thing, if you say so.

I think both would be wiped out by somebody if they fired first...thing is if Israel even so much as fired a single nuclear weapon, they would be hit so quickly from every direction that all 6 million of em including the Palestinians would probably be gone so quickly...Israel's neighbours are just waiting for such a scenario to unfold

And another strategic expert arrives on the scene.

What nuclear capable countries ever expressed something even remotely close to the view above?

Israel's neighbors? You mean the mighty Jordan, fearsome Egypt, unites Syria and powerful Lebanon?

[Morch]

Shlomo Sand, professor of History at Tel Aviv University wrote books "The invention of the Jewish People" and "The Invention of the land of Israel"

Basically he brings academic evidence to illustrate that the people claiming to be Jewish to-day are not at all the same people who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago.

It is obvious he considers that the modern Jews (Zionists) started to occupy modern Israel and that they are the real aggressors...

Finally Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University backs up all what Prof Shlomo Sand writes, with his own stunning book : "The Bible Unearthed"

According to Finkelstein the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology

Those who can't import those books can find conferences given by both professors on Youtube.

Don't argue with me : both authors are really not hot headed Arabs writing blogs from a PC in their kitchen : just read their books and the many academic sources they refer to.

In fact if King David, King Solomon, Moses etc...are mythological figures the same way as King Arthur and his Caste of Camelot ..it is not only a problem for the people of Jewish faith but also for those of Christian and Muslim faith.

Sand's views are controversial, and are not by any means considered definitive (the books popularity notwithstanding). Also, many people tend to confuse the arguments he raises (some are quite valid, some are out there), and at the same time disregard Sand's political agenda.

Finkelstein's research is more solid, actually. However, I do not think that the claim made is that "the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology" as such - nothing that simplistic, if not supportive of Jewish folklore and literal interpretations of the bible.

Of course Sand's views are controversial! His views threaten, in particular, Jewish Orthodoxy and also Zionism.

With those two groups disliking what he says, one has to, in all reasonableness, wonder if in fact any controversy is genuine or contrived, and if genuine, based on what facts?

Apart from the obvious political and social controversy, there was quite a bit of academic criticism - which is what I had in mind when posting. Hence the reference for Sand's views not being definitive. which is a term which would be meaningless in the context you apply (political and social are rarely definitive). This criticism had more to do with his premises, methodology, presentation and conclusions.

Not sure if I'm reading the second paragraph right - why would those two groups, specifically, merit such wondering? How is it any different when a view challenging the core notions of any other groups? As for the Sand's ideas being solid - that's pretty much what my comment on academic criticism was about. There is a summary of the back and forth on Wikipedia, with links to actual sources - the commentary and counter-commentary make as interesting reading (and sometimes more so) as the book itself. I would advise most people who intend to read the book, to do some preliminary reading on Sand himself, his political view and his agenda, before taking everything he rights as objective research. This, perhaps is a comment regarding the possibility of the controversy being contrived.

[Morch]

What happened in Nazi-germany and Europe some 70-80 years ago, resulted in a lot of sympathy for the jewish people. Yet, what's happening now in Israel en Palestine, rapidly takes away that sympathy. Seems like the israelian authorities did not learn from the atrocities done unto them, and treat the palestinians just as bad. Most europeans feel that way, certainly not only the majority of germans.

Was it not for the "just as bad" bit, your post would have been spot on.

Reality check: There is no mass extermination of Palestinians.

Death by gas chamber or death by bomb...just as bad, really.

And as previously discussed, numbers of casualties don't come into it, it's the thought that counts.

Nice try.

However, even on the level of intent the similarity is non-existent.

The Nazis aim was to exterminate the Jews (yes, and other groups as well). Israel's actions in relation to the Palestinians are not on par with that. This does not to be construed as denial of the death toll on the Palestinian side, or as an attempt to absolve the Israelis of responsibility. It is simply not same same as the Nazis - not when it comes to intent, not when it comes to scope. Now, if the actions of the German forces toward the general civilian population in occupied countries (including resistance organizations) were used as a standard for comparison than you might have a better case.

[fvw53]

Shlomo Sand, professor of History at Tel Aviv University wrote books "The invention of the Jewish People" and "The Invention of the land of Israel"

Basically he brings academic evidence to illustrate that the people claiming to be Jewish to-day are not at all the same people who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago.

It is obvious he considers that the modern Jews (Zionists) started to occupy modern Israel and that they are the real aggressors...

Finally Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University backs up all what Prof Shlomo Sand writes, with his own stunning book : "The Bible Unearthed"

According to Finkelstein the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology

Those who can't import those books can find conferences given by both professors on Youtube.

Don't argue with me : both authors are really not hot headed Arabs writing blogs from a PC in their kitchen : just read their books and the many academic sources they refer to.

In fact if King David, King Solomon, Moses etc...are mythological figures the same way as King Arthur and his Caste of Camelot ..it is not only a problem for the people of Jewish faith but also for those of Christian and Muslim faith.

Sand's views are controversial, and are not by any means considered definitive (the books popularity notwithstanding). Also, many people tend to confuse the arguments he raises (some are quite valid, some are out there), and at the same time disregard Sand's political agenda.

Finkelstein's research is more solid, actually. However, I do not think that the claim made is that "the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology" as such - nothing that simplistic, if not supportive of Jewish folklore and literal interpretations of the bible.

Of course Sand's views are controversial! His views threaten, in particular, Jewish Orthodoxy and also Zionism.

With those two groups disliking what he says, one has to, in all reasonableness, wonder if in fact any controversy is genuine or contrived, and if genuine, based on what facts?

Apart from the obvious political and social controversy, there was quite a bit of academic criticism - which is what I had in mind when posting. Hence the reference for Sand's views not being definitive. which is a term which would be meaningless in the context you apply (political and social are rarely definitive). This criticism had more to do with his premises, methodology, presentation and conclusions.

Not sure if I'm reading the second paragraph right - why would those two groups, specifically, merit such wondering? How is it any different when a view challenging the core notions of any other groups? As for the Sand's ideas being solid - that's pretty much what my comment on academic criticism was about. There is a summary of the back and forth on Wikipedia, with links to actual sources - the commentary and counter-commentary make as interesting reading (and sometimes more so) as the book itself. I would advise most people who intend to read the book, to do some preliminary reading on Sand himself, his political view and his agenda, before taking everything he rights as objective research. This, perhaps is a comment regarding the possibility of the controversy being contrived.

Religion has to reply to the question : why

Science, including history has to reply to the question : how

Both should not be mixed but it is done all the time....

Sand takes the point of view of science of not of faith :

- faith dictates that we believe the city of Jericho and all his inhabitants ...men...women...children...and even cattle had to be slaughtered at the instructions of the cruel Jewish God (Joshua 6:1-27)

- science learns us through Shlomo Sand that there is no trace of the so-called collapsed walls of Jericho

[Morch]

A lot of brainwash is fed to world population about Palestinian terrorists. How about a freedom fighters? Israelis doing ethnic cleansing, killing Palestinian adult and children, grabbing illegally their houses and land, doing what not even apartheid did in S.Africa. they know what Germans to them. Why to replicate the crimes they are so familiar with? Freedom fighters are not terrorists, not the criminals. What venue they are left with fighting for their stolen rights? All countries in the Second World War were fighting Germans to get freedom, however, Germans call them terrorists. This same should apply to everybody with no exception because they are Jews. This is clearly a double standard. Jews are the chosen race and better and the rest of the world just goim, as Spinoza said : ..."Spinoza in an oft-cited passage in his Theologico-Political Treatise: “That they [the Jews] are preserved largely through the hatred of other nations is demonstrated by historical fact.”

Do you want to add anything to it, or this is just enough?

The above post is a good example of how perceptions can be arrived via a mix of partial facts and agenda-driven interpretation, compounded by hyperbole.

Freedom fighters would mainly target military forces, security personnel, and government facilities. Terrorists mainly target civilians. Ethnic cleansing would require that there would be less Palestinians around - and yet, one of the standard Palestinian claims is that demographics and time assure their eventual victory. The usual reference to South African Apartheid - without any attempt to explore how this applies. And the almost inevitable leap to it all being a "replication", no less, of Nazi treatment of Jews - not including the mass extermination bit.

Onwards with justification of terrorism (as opposed to freedom fighting, which would be legit), as a "no choice" - one would have hoped that at least some of Gandhi's and King's heritage would be remembered. Alas..."no choice". A dash of interesting logic - the Nazis said those fighting against them are terrorists, when they were freedom fighters, therefore....what exactly? There are no terrorists at all? Being a Thailand-oriented web-board, this is glossed over with crying "Double Standards".

And here's that big finale - nothing to do with Israel, Israelis or Gaza. It's them Jews...Spinoza himself says so (and he should know, he was a Jew once, you know). They got only themselves to blame, really.

[Seastallion]

What happened in Nazi-germany and Europe some 70-80 years ago, resulted in a lot of sympathy for the jewish people. Yet, what's happening now in Israel en Palestine, rapidly takes away that sympathy. Seems like the israelian authorities did not learn from the atrocities done unto them, and treat the palestinians just as bad. Most europeans feel that way, certainly not only the majority of germans.

Was it not for the "just as bad" bit, your post would have been spot on.

Reality check: There is no mass extermination of Palestinians.

Death by gas chamber or death by bomb...just as bad, really.

And as previously discussed, numbers of casualties don't come into it, it's the thought that counts.

Nice try.

However, even on the level of intent the similarity is non-existent.

The Nazis aim was to exterminate the Jews (yes, and other groups as well). Israel's actions in relation to the Palestinians are not on par with that. This does not to be construed as denial of the death toll on the Palestinian side, or as an attempt to absolve the Israelis of responsibility. It is simply not same same as the Nazis - not when it comes to intent, not when it comes to scope. Now, if the actions of the German forces toward the general civilian population in occupied countries (including resistance organizations) were used as a standard for comparison than you might have a better case.

You are saying that powerful Zionist influences have no intent to eradicate Arab existence in Palestine.

I don't hold with that view.

[snowgard]

Who are interested who are the real aggressor must look this Video on YouTube.

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel - from Miko Peled, Son of General Peled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

[Morch]

It seems like Israel has a PR problem with Germany. Since Germany is a very powerful country in the EU, they might want to start addressing this problem.

It is rather a global problem than being just Germany related (granted, OP and all that).

Generally speaking, Israel invests very little in PR efforts (except when it comes to the USA). This is partially because ultimately, the USA calls the shots and got the means to back it up. There's no national or international power to match that, not really. This is based both on the "they are against us anyway"/"they are all antisemitic" point of view, and on the realization that this is one media battle fought uphill. Of course, there's the usual other elements - silly budget priorities and domestic politics.

But the main point is, this ain't no PR issue.

Israel's rule over the Palestinians is a reality, and not a pretty one. It could be explained better, sure, but it does not change the core situation (regardless of the Palestinians' part in their own predicament).

Antisemitism (or whatever posters wish to call it, not getting into this silly debate) is a reality. Nothing to do with Palestine (but clearly enhanced by related issues), nothing to be solved through an advertisement campaign. And nothing which will go away anytime soon.

[Morch]

The Jews always cry anti-Semitism, the Palestinians are just as Semitic if not more so, as they are native to the area, unlike the Khazar's.

If you're one of Sand's acolytes.

[Morch]

Sand's views are controversial, and are not by any means considered definitive (the books popularity notwithstanding). Also, many people tend to confuse the arguments he raises (some are quite valid, some are out there), and at the same time disregard Sand's political agenda.

Finkelstein's research is more solid, actually. However, I do not think that the claim made is that "the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology" as such - nothing that simplistic, if not supportive of Jewish folklore and literal interpretations of the bible.

Of course Sand's views are controversial! His views threaten, in particular, Jewish Orthodoxy and also Zionism.

With those two groups disliking what he says, one has to, in all reasonableness, wonder if in fact any controversy is genuine or contrived, and if genuine, based on what facts?

Apart from the obvious political and social controversy, there was quite a bit of academic criticism - which is what I had in mind when posting. Hence the reference for Sand's views not being definitive. which is a term which would be meaningless in the context you apply (political and social are rarely definitive). This criticism had more to do with his premises, methodology, presentation and conclusions.

Not sure if I'm reading the second paragraph right - why would those two groups, specifically, merit such wondering? How is it any different when a view challenging the core notions of any other groups? As for the Sand's ideas being solid - that's pretty much what my comment on academic criticism was about. There is a summary of the back and forth on Wikipedia, with links to actual sources - the commentary and counter-commentary make as interesting reading (and sometimes more so) as the book itself. I would advise most people who intend to read the book, to do some preliminary reading on Sand himself, his political view and his agenda, before taking everything he rights as objective research. This, perhaps is a comment regarding the possibility of the controversy being contrived.

Religion has to reply to the question : why

Science, including history has to reply to the question : how

Both should not be mixed but it is done all the time....

Sand takes the point of view of science of not of faith :

- faith dictates that we believe the city of Jericho and all his inhabitants ...men...women...children...and even cattle had to be slaughtered at the instructions of the cruel Jewish God (Joshua 6:1-27)

- science learns us through Shlomo Sand that there is no trace of the so-called collapsed walls of Jericho

*posts removed to allow reply*

We would have to disagree as to how objectively scientific Sand's writings are.

As stated earlier, this is more than my personal opinion.

[redandyellow]

Germans have skeptical view of Israel,

The opposite holds true in equal measure

signed,

probably

[Jingthing]

Can we all agree about germs though?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Morch]

Was it not for the "just as bad" bit, your post would have been spot on.

Reality check: There is no mass extermination of Palestinians.

Death by gas chamber or death by bomb...just as bad, really.

And as previously discussed, numbers of casualties don't come into it, it's the thought that counts.

Nice try.

However, even on the level of intent the similarity is non-existent.

The Nazis aim was to exterminate the Jews (yes, and other groups as well). Israel's actions in relation to the Palestinians are not on par with that. This does not to be construed as denial of the death toll on the Palestinian side, or as an attempt to absolve the Israelis of responsibility. It is simply not same same as the Nazis - not when it comes to intent, not when it comes to scope. Now, if the actions of the German forces toward the general civilian population in occupied countries (including resistance organizations) were used as a standard for comparison than you might have a better case.

You are saying that powerful Zionist influences have no intent to eradicate Arab existence in Palestine.

I don't hold with that view.

*posts removed to allow reply*

Then you would need to prove it through other means.

As it stands, there is no wholesale extermination of the Arab population in either Israel nor in what would one day be Palestine.

There is no equivalence with the Nazis on this score.

Granted, there are political elements within the Israeli right wing which could be said to hold similar views (again, apart from the mass extermination bit, more to do with notions of deportation and population transfers) - but to date, this is neither an official position nor a very acceptable position for most of the Israeli public. There is no such policy executed on a mass scale - so even that will not really be applicable as comparison.

[Morch]

Who are interested who are the real aggressor must look this Video on YouTube.

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel - from Miko Peled, Son of General Peled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

Miko Peled, apart from being a fine human being a nice guy - also belongs to what could be termed fringe far left.

His opinions are genuine, but to take this them as objective would be mistaken.

[dexterm]

What happened in Nazi-germany and Europe some 70-80 years ago, resulted in a lot of sympathy for the jewish people. Yet, what's happening now in Israel en Palestine, rapidly takes away that sympathy. Seems like the israelian authorities did not learn from the atrocities done unto them, and treat the palestinians just as bad. Most europeans feel that way, certainly not only the majority of germans.

Was it not for the "just as bad" bit, your post would have been spot on.

Reality check: There is no mass extermination of Palestinians.

No gas chambers but mass ethnic cleansing to create Jewish lebensraum . 4 million refugees under occupation by Israelis and another 5 million in the Palestinian diaspora, and the Palestinians used to be the 94% majority (according to U Grants own admission) in Palestine until Zionists arrived as uninvited guest in the 1890s to steal and occupy the land.

The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

Go figure who the invaders and terrorists are.

[Morch]

Can we all agree about germs though?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dexterm]

Who are interested who are the real aggressor must look this Video on YouTube.

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel - from Miko Peled, Son of General Peled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

Miko Peled, apart from being a fine human being a nice guy - also belongs to what could be termed fringe far left.

His opinions are genuine, but to take this them as objective would be mistaken.

Well, as a member of the Zionist fringe you would say that wouldn't you. Your litotes doesn't fool anyone.

I think Miko Peled is a very brave man to speak the truth and he is very well qualified considering his background. One day he will be hailed as a righteous Israeli.

[Morch]

What happened in Nazi-germany and Europe some 70-80 years ago, resulted in a lot of sympathy for the jewish people. Yet, what's happening now in Israel en Palestine, rapidly takes away that sympathy. Seems like the israelian authorities did not learn from the atrocities done unto them, and treat the palestinians just as bad. Most europeans feel that way, certainly not only the majority of germans.

Was it not for the "just as bad" bit, your post would have been spot on.

Reality check: There is no mass extermination of Palestinians.

No gas chambers but mass ethnic cleansing to create Jewish lebensraum . 4 million refugees under occupation by Israelis and another 5 million in the Palestinian diaspora, and the Palestinians used to be the 94% majority (according to U Grants own admission) in Palestine until Zionists arrived as uninvited guest in the 1890s to steal and occupy the land.

The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

Go figure who the invaders and terrorists are.

Figured you'd show up sometime....

So, back to the point of my original comment - how is Israeli treatment of the Palestinians "just as bad" as the Nazi treatment of the Jews? Yeah....thought so.

Now, without getting into one of them link loaded pseudo-historical debates you're so fond of, and disregarding the lebensraum baiting - it could be pointed out that there was abut the same number of Jews expelled from Arab countries, and that contrary to your claim regarding the signatories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence, they were all legit (unless, if one does not accept that the relevant laws were Ottoman and British, but applies some modern day standard fitting his agenda). Just to make this a bit more real - if they were all illegal immigrants, they wouldn't be able to act as heads of the Jewish public - the Brits would have jailed them earlier.

As said, the original point was rather about claims that Israel's actions are similar to the Nazi regime's - which is not what your attempt of a spin post is about.

There was another issue raised earlier which you may want to consider - it was asserted that Jews ought to let go of dwelling on the past (it being 70 years ago) in order to facilitate "healing". Would you have an opinion on how this claim may apply with regards to the Palestinians?

[Morch]

Who are interested who are the real aggressor must look this Video on YouTube.

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel - from Miko Peled, Son of General Peled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

Miko Peled, apart from being a fine human being a nice guy - also belongs to what could be termed fringe far left.

His opinions are genuine, but to take this them as objective would be mistaken.

Well, as a member of the Zionist fringe you would say that wouldn't you. Your litotes doesn't fool anyone.

I think Miko Peled is a very brave man to speak the truth and he is very well qualified considering his background. One day he will be hailed as a righteous Israeli.

Me? Zionist fringe? Interesting.

Not that I clearly know what that means, but judging from my on record and consistent views regarding Israel's illegal (here it is again) settlement efforts, I'd say I would probably not be well accepted at your fantasy "Zionist Fringe", whatever this may be.

Miko Peled is indeed a good and brave man, all the more so for publicly holding unpopular politically fringe opinions. Perhaps it would do to point out that terming something fringe does not necessarily mean one is diametrically opposed to said views, the all or nothing tunnel vision is boring. As for his views being "the truth" - this is in as much as political opinion is true. How is Peled "very well qualified considering his background" is anybody's guess - there are ex-special forces and sons of generals on most sides of the Israeli political spectrum. Israel's Prime Minister is ex-special forces, does this suggest that his is "very well qualified considering his background" as well? As far as I am concerned, Miko Peled could be hailed as a righteous Israeli right now, but he's still in the fringe politics zone.

And one last pearl, in another post you erroneously stated that "the fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes" (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795049-study-germans-have-skeptical-view-of-israel/?p=8995267) - would that include Miko Peled's grandfather?

"His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence."

http://mikopeled.com/