UK visa for a child ENTITLED to British citizenship

[Jip99]

I have a question relating to Tony M's pinned post here:-

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/773527-uk-visa-for-child-entitled-to-uk-citizenship/

A friend is planning to visit the UK with his Thai wife and adopted daughter.

She does not have a British passport and whilst she is ENTITLED to citizenship I do not believe that has yet been conferred.

The intention is for her to travel on her Thai passport and I believe that she will need a Child Visitor Visa.

I would be grateful to hear the views of TonyM, or others.

[brewsterbudgen]

My friends child (Thai mother / British father) couldn't get a UK Visitor Visa as they had already applied for, but not received, the child's British passport.

I would think, but hopefully someone more qualified can confirm, that as long as they haven't applied for a UK passport yet, the daughter will be able to get a UK Visitor Visa.

Edited March 2, 2015 by brewsterbudgen

[Tony M]

I am no expert on British nationality, but it seems to me that it makes no difference whether British nationality has actually been conferred or not. The fact of the matter is that, if the child is entitled to British nationality, a visa cannot be issued. That said, we do know of many cases where visa have been issued, and my pinned post refers to this.

[7by7]

Not sure what you mean by "entitled to (British) citizenship." A person is either a British citizen or they are not.

A British citizen without a British passport is still a British citizen and so should not be able to obtain a visa for the UK and to enter the UK should either obtain a British passport or a Certificate of Entitlement to The Right of Abode as per the topic you have linked to.

A person who is not currently a British citizen may be eligible to apply to become one; but until and unless that application is successful they are not British.

Therefore my opinion, which may be wrong, is that your friends should either wait until the child has been successfully registered as British (children under 18 cannot be naturalised, but registration is to all intents and purposes the same) and obtain a British passport for her or obtain a visit visa for her in her Thai passport and sort out any citizenship application later.

Edited March 2, 2015 by 7by7

[Jip99]

Not sure what you mean by "entitled to (British) citizenship." A person is either a British citizen or they are not.

A British citizen without a British passport is still a British citizen and so should not be able to obtain a visa for the UK and to enter the UK should either obtain a British passport or a Certificate of Entitlement to The Right of Abode as per the topic you have linked to.

A person who is not currently a British citizen may be eligible to apply to become one; but until and unless that application is successful they are not British.

Therefore my opinion, which may be wrong, is that your friends should either wait until the child has been successfully registered as British (children under 18 cannot be naturalised, but registration is to all intents and purposes the same) and obtain a British passport for her or obtain a visit visa for her in her Thai passport and sort out any citizenship application later.

I agree with you - but the above quoted pinned post from Tony M refers to 'entitlement'.

I would share the view that entitlement is irrelevant - actual citizenship is only conferred on the issue of a British Passport (or other mechanism for obtaining citizenship).

I simply seek confirmation as I do not wish to risk rejection of the visa application for my friend.

[eaglesflight]

Not sure what you mean by "entitled to (British) citizenship." A person is either a British citizen or they are not.

A British citizen without a British passport is still a British citizen and so should not be able to obtain a visa for the UK and to enter the UK should either obtain a British passport or a Certificate of Entitlement to The Right of Abode as per the topic you have linked to.

A person who is not currently a British citizen may be eligible to apply to become one; but until and unless that application is successful they are not British.

Therefore my opinion, which may be wrong, is that your friends should either wait until the child has been successfully registered as British (children under 18 cannot be naturalised, but registration is to all intents and purposes the same) and obtain a British passport for her or obtain a visit visa for her in her Thai passport and sort out any citizenship application later.

I agree with you - but the above quoted pinned post from Tony M refers to 'entitlement'.

I would share the view that entitlement is irrelevant - actual citizenship is only conferred on the issue of a British Passport (or other mechanism for obtaining citizenship).

I simply seek confirmation as I do not wish to risk rejection of the visa application for my friend.

If a child is a British citizen through descent, they are a British citizen, end of story. There is no 'conferring' of citizenship. The issuing of a British passport does not 'confer' citizenship, rather, you must be a British citizen in order to apply for the passport in the first place.

They don't need to be 'registered' as British either.

Edited March 3, 2015 by eaglesflight

[Jip99]

Not sure what you mean by "entitled to (British) citizenship." A person is either a British citizen or they are not.

A British citizen without a British passport is still a British citizen and so should not be able to obtain a visa for the UK and to enter the UK should either obtain a British passport or a Certificate of Entitlement to The Right of Abode as per the topic you have linked to.

A person who is not currently a British citizen may be eligible to apply to become one; but until and unless that application is successful they are not British.

Therefore my opinion, which may be wrong, is that your friends should either wait until the child has been successfully registered as British (children under 18 cannot be naturalised, but registration is to all intents and purposes the same) and obtain a British passport for her or obtain a visit visa for her in her Thai passport and sort out any citizenship application later.

I agree with you - but the above quoted pinned post from Tony M refers to 'entitlement'.

I would share the view that entitlement is irrelevant - actual citizenship is only conferred on the issue of a British Passport (or other mechanism for obtaining citizenship).

I simply seek confirmation as I do not wish to risk rejection of the visa application for my friend.

If a child is a British citizen through descent, they are a British citizen, end of story. There is no 'conferring' of citizenship. The issuing of a British passport does not 'confer' citizenship, rather, you must be a British citizen in order to apply for the passport in the first place.

They don't need to be 'registered' as British either.

The child is not British by Descent.

The child was adopted by my friend and his Thai wife some 3 years ago.

The best route is to apply for a UK visa in her Thai passport. I just want to make sure there is no obstacle to this.

From the replies received I am sure the visa application will be UK - thank you.

[elvisp1977]

My wife very recently applied for a visa for my son ( I am British) to be issued with a visa to come to the UK because i was waiting ( at that point) 5 months for my son's UK passport to be approved...i had read on here that some have been approved in the past so i thought it was worth a shot for the £90 or so.....in addition my wife had a family visit visa to visit England from 1st December 14...( KET issues)... I managed to get the application through VFS ( as i was over on holiday) although they were not very happy i think...i think if my wife had gone alone they would not have accepted it....anyway shortly afterwards we were rung up by the British embassy and advised to withdraw it which we did...

Cheers...

[eaglesflight]

Not sure what you mean by "entitled to (British) citizenship." A person is either a British citizen or they are not.

A British citizen without a British passport is still a British citizen and so should not be able to obtain a visa for the UK and to enter the UK should either obtain a British passport or a Certificate of Entitlement to The Right of Abode as per the topic you have linked to.

A person who is not currently a British citizen may be eligible to apply to become one; but until and unless that application is successful they are not British.

Therefore my opinion, which may be wrong, is that your friends should either wait until the child has been successfully registered as British (children under 18 cannot be naturalised, but registration is to all intents and purposes the same) and obtain a British passport for her or obtain a visit visa for her in her Thai passport and sort out any citizenship application later.

I agree with you - but the above quoted pinned post from Tony M refers to 'entitlement'.

I would share the view that entitlement is irrelevant - actual citizenship is only conferred on the issue of a British Passport (or other mechanism for obtaining citizenship).

I simply seek confirmation as I do not wish to risk rejection of the visa application for my friend.

If a child is a British citizen through descent, they are a British citizen, end of story. There is no 'conferring' of citizenship. The issuing of a British passport does not 'confer' citizenship, rather, you must be a British citizen in order to apply for the passport in the first place.

They don't need to be 'registered' as British either.

The child is not British by Descent.

The child was adopted by my friend and his Thai wife some 3 years ago.

The best route is to apply for a UK visa in her Thai passport. I just want to make sure there is no obstacle to this.

From the replies received I am sure the visa application will be UK - thank you.

If the child was adopted by a British citizen, in accordance with UK law (this does not necessarily mean that the adoption had to take place in the UK, simply that it has to be in accordance with UK law), then the adopted child has all the same rights as a biological child. This means that the child in question would indeed be British by descent.

I'm just trying to be helpful. If you don't want to listen or wish to go down another route, that's fine of course and good luck with whichever route you choose.

Edited March 4, 2015 by eaglesflight

[7by7]

<snip>

If the child was adopted by a British citizen, in accordance with UK law (this does not necessarily mean that the adoption had to take place in the UK, simply that it has to be in accordance with UK law), then the adopted child has all the same rights as a biological child. This means that the child in question would indeed be British by descent.

Not necessarily, the following is from the guidance for child settlement applications, but is the simplest explanation I can find.

SET7.18.4 The effect of overseas adoptions in UK law

Overseas adoptions do not confer British citizenship. The exceptions are adoptions under the terms of the Hague Convention which have been completed abroad and where the final Adoption Order has been issued by the courts in the child’s originating country.

In this case, if at least one of the adoptive parents was a British citizen at the time the adoption order was made and the adopting parent; or in the case of a joint adoption, both adopting parents, was (were) habitually resident in the UK at the time of the final adoption order, then the child will automatically become a British citizen. In such cases a British passport can be issued to the child rather than an entry clearance.

Where an overseas adoption has not conferred British nationality the sponsors sometimes decide to adopt again through the UK courts, even though the overseas adoption is recognised.

(My emphasis)

Thailand is a non member contracting state of the Hague Convention, so whether or not this means a Thai adoption comes under the terms of the convention, I don't know for sure. Though Article 2(1) talks about 'contracting states' not 'member states' so it probably does.

Even if it does, jipp99's friend still needs to show that he is habitually resident in the UK for the child to be automatically British. As it appears he lives in Thailand, this may be difficult.

I think the only place to get a definitive answer is from a UK solicitor, or similar, specialising in overseas adoptions.

Or simply apply for a British passport for the child and see what happens!

[tonyk]

Only adoptions made in Thailand since 3 January 2014 are recognised by the UK. A child must qualify for a visa under Rules 309, 310.

[Jip99]

If a child is a British citizen through descent, they are a British citizen, end of story. There is no 'conferring' of citizenship. The issuing of a British passport does not 'confer' citizenship, rather, you must be a British citizen in order to apply for the passport in the first place.

They don't need to be 'registered' as British either.

The child is not British by Descent.

The child was adopted by my friend and his Thai wife some 3 years ago.

The best route is to apply for a UK visa in her Thai passport. I just want to make sure there is no obstacle to this.

From the replies received I am sure the visa application will be UK - thank you.

If the child was adopted by a British citizen, in accordance with UK law (this does not necessarily mean that the adoption had to take place in the UK, simply that it has to be in accordance with UK law), then the adopted child has all the same rights as a biological child. This means that the child in question would indeed be British by descent.

I'm just trying to be helpful. If you don't want to listen or wish to go down another route, that's fine of course and good luck with whichever route you choose.

I appreciate any efforts to be helpful - thanks, that is what TV is all about in my book.

In this instance your advice differs slightly from other senior posters. That does not necessarily make you wrong but it puts you in a minority. To me it does not seem right that adoption confers the same rights as a biological child - in the context of citizenship and the definition of descent.

We will find out when they submit the UK visa application next week.

[tonyk]

Absolutely no reason why the child cannot be issued a visa, assuming the rules are satisfied.

[eaglesflight]

Only adoptions made in Thailand since 3 January 2014 are recognised by the UK. A child must qualify for a visa under Rules 309, 310.

Thailand ratified the Hague Convention on intercountry adoption in 2004 so any adoptions after August of that year, when the law came into effect, would be recognised by the UK government because they were in accordance with Hague Convention adoptions. Whether Thailand was on the list of designated countries before Jan 3 2014 is therefore irrelevant.

However, the habitual residence issue that 7by7 pointed out does look like it complicates the matter.

Edited March 10, 2015 by eaglesflight

[007cableguy]

Today received my sons family visa in a thai passport no problem ,I didn't want to take the risk of waiting a while for him to get a UK passport as we wanted to go over for Easter it took twelve days from interview to being delivered!