Are big bikes safer than scooters?

[Beardog]

Safer by a long shot. Since I got my 650 I have had zero drivers force me off the road. When driver get over aggressive in cars or trucks it takes 2 seconds to get up to 140 kilo's To put plenty of distance between the mentally challenger road ragers in Pattaya. Scores of motorbikes have accidents daily but in the Larger (500cc & up) I rarely hear of major wrecks. Yesterday another person on a motorbike got wasted by a truck that insisted on driving in the shoulder. He took out a young girl instantly.

Today going into Pattaya another scooter got rear ended By a SUV. I watched the idiot plow into the scooter like it wasn't even there.

You still have to be hella defensive but there is no doubt about the bigger bikes If they pay attention & stay alert to surroundings they have a huge advantage over a scooter. Getting pushed off the road too many times doing over 100 kilo's an hour got me to get a larger bike. Problem solved. At least for the morons that got their Lic. in a cracker jack box they know they are going to take on some heavy damage with a bigger bike & most drivers take the road rage on the smaller bikes that they can always muscle out of the way.Personally I don't care what you ride. I just feel way safer being able to do light speed & let the car or truck smack into someone else.

[seedy]

Post Edited for Troll / Flaming. Leave comments on age out of this discussion please.

Thank you.

[Familyonthemove]

One factor that makes my bike safer than my old scooter is that I wear proper protective gear on the bigger bike but I didn't on the scooter. It's not logical or sensible, but it just felt wrong wearing a bike jacket on the scooter.

[guzzi850m2]

Post Edited for Troll / Flaming. Leave comments on age out of this discussion please.

Thank you.

What are you saying man?? Age of the rider(s) are a strong contributing factor how safe they ride in my opinion.

Very young males= often very risky ridding.

Very old dude= well people that live long enough will reach a stage where they can no longer ride/drive safely anymore, that is a fact.

For some it's can be 70 and for others 90+, it all depends.

There is a reason most pro racing bikers/driver retire at latest 50 years old and earlier for most bike pro racing riders, 30ish.

[wantan]

^

Guess talking about age isnt forbidden generally. But flaming by using things like sex, race or age is.

[andreandre]

^

Regarding skills and experience:

Human nature is like this: Ask 100 riders how they would classify themself in riding skills. 80% will say that their riding skills are "above-average".

And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked.

"And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked."

I disagree. Of the many posters here, past and present, I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

Interesting...i have followed this forum for many years and have never seen such claims made..any links/evidence of the two saying as you proclaim ? ie where they actually claim to have top notch riding skills...doubtful...but i know you'll give it a shot...

Don't forget..the answer to your OP is...;Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands.

It's good that you don't recall because those posters in question have zero credibility on this forum as their claims are completely unsubstantiated. One of them is unable to even so much as post a picture of his bike, much less any ride reports or experiences of riding in Thailand.

It has been discussed for a long time as to how many posters are actual riders and how many don't actually even ride but just like to troll forums, possibly due to a sad existence. You definitely don't want to waste your precious time with any of them, they are nothing but a waste of oxygen, as concluded by many other posters.

(DELETED)

Incidentally, I like your signature about safety and I couldn't agree more.... except when the thing that I'm holding in my hands is a condom, hahahaha.

Hmmmm actually,In my own case i have indeed posted a photo of my goodself on one of my good bikes on this very forum..

(DELETED) i can understand your wanting to post pics and write stories about your riding experiences..you are excited at your new found lifestyle..good for you. (DELETED).....i dont have any problem with you and the handful of others that post of their experiences.., as i may have been the same ,some 50 years ago when i was at your stage of riding..i say i may have, but didn't feel the need to do so then ...And now after 50 years of riding covering 700,000 klms why on earth would i want to start doing so? you just don't get it ...riding bikes has been a permanent part of my life for all these years..its just life..like eating, drinking,having sex etc,etc...its not a big deal to me its just living my life before i retired, my bike was my only transport..to work and back, to visit friends, go to the pub., to anywhere and everywhere day or night , rain or shine..LIFE!! Why the hell would i feel the need to tell stories about that?....(DELETED)

PS.. and i have never suggested that i have 'top notch'' riding skills..i have survived simply by being out there doing it,ie riding. riding..keeping up to date and practicing all and sundry to do with being competent and confident......and a lot of luck.

Edited April 4, 2015 by seedy
troll / flaming

[seedy]

Post Edited for Troll / Flaming. Leave comments on age out of this discussion please.

Thank you.

What are you saying man?? Age of the rider(s) are a strong contributing factor how safe they ride in my opinion.

Means that Troll / Flaming posts in reference to a riders age be kept out.

Nowhere did I say that age can not be discussed. As the post following yours understood

[papa al]

???

"Leave comments on age out of this discussion please."

"Nowhere did I say that age can not be discussed."

papa confused as per usual.

[papa al]

I saw a wreck where the entire left side of the bikers body was destroyed by a truck.

He's all right now.

[AllanB]

^

Regarding skills and experience:

Human nature is like this: Ask 100 riders how they would classify themself in riding skills. 80% will say that their riding skills are "above-average".

And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked.

"And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked."

I disagree. Of the many posters here, past and present, I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

Before you quote someone else's posting and comment, it might be a good idea to read it first.

Wantan said 80% of riders would say their riding skills are "above average", and not "top notch", a big difference IMO and yes, I would agree that 80% of us are above average in Thailand. As poor as I would be on a racetrack I consider myself above average when compared with the locals around here.

But, as I have said before the direct correlation between skills (perceived or otherwise)and safe riding is not at all proven, since skillful riders are prone to be proving themselves at times, which is not a safe thing to do. That is why skillful riders have more accidents.

I think there is a bigger difference between bikes within the "scooter", (small bike) category, than between big and small bikes. The three bikes I have ridden fairly regularly over the past few years, I would catagorise as follows.

10 being very safe and 1 being highly dangerous.

1. Honda Wave...8.

2. Honda NV400 7

3. Yamaha Fino 4

Actually someone told me (the guy who sold me the Fino) that statistically the Fino is the most accident prone bike in Thailand......he told me, that's all???

[wantan]

^
>As poor as I would be on a racetrack I consider myself above average when compared with the locals around here.

As there are only few farangs in Thailand (compared to the mass of thai people) you basically say you are better than most other riders. Thats what i said, the human nature.


>But, as I have said before the direct correlation between skills (perceived or otherwise)and safe riding is not at all proven, since skillful riders are prone to be proving themselves at times, which is not a safe thing to do.

Its called "risk compensation", the human nature to become more careful where they sense greater risk and less careful if they feel safer.


>That is why skillful riders have more accidents.

I am not that much interested in statistics, but from what i remember years ago its novices that have the most accidents, followed by younger riders with some experience but highly overestimating their skills and/or their bikes technology.


But without a doubt a loud Harley or a Hayabusa get a lot of respect on thai roads and this is a big contribution to the riders safety. But what if all people would ride a Harley/Hayabusa? Would it still be safer?

Edited April 4, 2015 by wantan

[macknife]

I think you mean you are safer riders than most Thai locals. I'd say most Thai lads can do things on a bike that we could only dream about, after all most have been riding since they were big enough to touch the pedals. Unfortunately for them they don't know where to draw the line.

[Gweiloman]

^

Regarding skills and experience:

Human nature is like this: Ask 100 riders how they would classify themself in riding skills. 80% will say that their riding skills are "above-average".

And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked.

"And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked."

I disagree. Of the many posters here, past and present, I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

Before you quote someone else's posting and comment, it might be a good idea to read it first.

Wantan said 80% of riders would say their riding skills are "above average", and not "top notch", a big difference IMO and yes, I would agree that 80% of us are above average in Thailand. As poor as I would be on a racetrack I consider myself above average when compared with the locals around here.

But, as I have said before the direct correlation between skills (perceived or otherwise)and safe riding is not at all proven, since skillful riders are prone to be proving themselves at times, which is not a safe thing to do. That is why skillful riders have more accidents.

I think there is a bigger difference between bikes within the "scooter", (small bike) category, than between big and small bikes. The three bikes I have ridden fairly regularly over the past few years, I would catagorise as follows.

10 being very safe and 1 being highly dangerous.

1. Honda Wave...8.

2. Honda NV400 7

3. Yamaha Fino 4

Actually someone told me (the guy who sold me the Fino) that statistically the Fino is the most accident prone bike in Thailand......he told me, that's all???

"Before you quote someone else's posting and comment, it might be a good idea to read it first."

(DELETED)

Having said that, the rest of your post is ??? Skillful riders have more accidents???? I think you should rethink your opinions.

Edited April 4, 2015 by seedy
troll / flaming

[Gweiloman]

I think you mean you are safer riders than most Thai locals. I'd say most Thai lads can do things on a bike that we could only dream about, after all most have been riding since they were big enough to touch the pedals. Unfortunately for them they don't know where to draw the line.

So very true. Those of us who ride regularly all over Thailand has seen for ourselves how skillful a lot of the young Thai lads are. The problem for them is that they have not gathered enough road sense and have not seen good examples of safe riding. A lot of the time, they just don't realise that their riding styles and habits are actually unsafe, as road safety education is sorely lacking in this country.

Take a young Thai lad, teach him (or her) about road safety, teach them a few advanced skills and they would leave most of us behind in a cloud of dust.

[Gweiloman]

^

Regarding skills and experience:

Human nature is like this: Ask 100 riders how they would classify themself in riding skills. 80% will say that their riding skills are "above-average".

And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked.

"And biking forum nature is like this: You do not even have to ask the riders about their skills. 80% will tell you about their great skills without being asked."

I disagree. Of the many posters here, past and present, I can only recall 2 posters who claim to have top notch riding skills, gained from over 30 years riding experience.

Before you quote someone else's posting and comment, it might be a good idea to read it first.

Wantan said 80% of riders would say their riding skills are "above average", and not "top notch", a big difference IMO and yes, I would agree that 80% of us are above average in Thailand. As poor as I would be on a racetrack I consider myself above average when compared with the locals around here.

But, as I have said before the direct correlation between skills (perceived or otherwise)and safe riding is not at all proven, since skillful riders are prone to be proving themselves at times, which is not a safe thing to do. That is why skillful riders have more accidents.

I think there is a bigger difference between bikes within the "scooter", (small bike) category, than between big and small bikes. The three bikes I have ridden fairly regularly over the past few years, I would catagorise as follows.

10 being very safe and 1 being highly dangerous.

1. Honda Wave...8.

2. Honda NV400 7

3. Yamaha Fino 4

Actually someone told me (the guy who sold me the Fino) that statistically the Fino is the most accident prone bike in Thailand......he told me, that's all???

"Before you quote someone else's posting and comment, it might be a good idea to read it first."

(DELETED)

Having said that, the rest of your post is ??? Skillful riders have more accidents???? I think you should rethink your opinions.

(DELETED)

AllanB implies that my comprehension level can be improved. I replied that English is not my mother tongue and that (DELETED) Isn't Allan's post a (DELETED) as well then? (by the way, I am not saying that Allan's comment is a (DELETED) I have no issue with it (DELETED)

Edited April 4, 2015 by seedy
discuss moderation

[BSJ]

English is my first language and even I make spelling mistakes! It's true, but when I see the wiggly read line under the word I click on it and get the right spelling. Aren't you all glad?

Anyway, after 4 pages there is no definitive answer as the argument proceeded with insufficient factual input regarding accident statistics and a breakdown of rider experiences and the number of big bikes v small bikes/scooters in the kingdom.

Bring the facts into the debate and the debate will be enhanced and your arguments will have substance.

At the moment it's just a (DELETED) contest!

Edited April 4, 2015 by seedy
language

[seedy]

Posts Discussing Moderation, and replies to them, removed.

[andreandre]

English is my first language and even I make spelling mistakes! It's true, but when I see the wiggly read line under the word I click on it and get the right spelling. Aren't you all glad?

Anyway, after 4 pages there is no definitive answer as the argument proceeded with insufficient factual input regarding accident statistics and a breakdown of rider experiences and the number of big bikes v small bikes/scooters in the kingdom.

Bring the facts into the debate and the debate will be enhanced and your arguments will have substance.

At the moment it's just a (DELETED) contest!

Anyway, after 4 pages there is no definitive answer as the argument proceeded with insufficient factual input regarding accident statistics and a breakdown of rider experiences and the number of big bikes v small bikes/scooters in the kingdom.

Nothing can change....It all started IMO with a very poorly worded OP...there is absolutely no correlation between the headline and the post...also as is apparent there is a mixed feeling on what the interpretation of safe in this thread ...in some its a personal feeling...feeling safe by doing things 'safely".....others it is all about what a big bike can offer over a scooter in safety added features...in reality its an unanswerable question....its all down to an individuals own perspective.....

[wantan]

Its not only unanswerable. There is also the question what should be the consequence if we would agree that big bikes are "safer"? Most of the big bike riders who classify scooters as less safe own a scooter (or other type of small bike). So there must be more in life than just trying to stay safe. We all would drive a car or take taxis if not. A certain level of risk is needed by humans. Some smoke, some ride a big bike at 200kmh and others ride a scooter. Life would be much less interesting if everything would be safe.

[AllanB]

(DELETED)

Having said that, the rest of your post is ??? Skillful riders have more accidents???? I think you should rethink your opinions.

(DELETED)

AllanB implies that my comprehension level can be improved. I replied that English is not my mother tongue and that (DELETED) Isn't Allan's post a (DELETED) as well then? (by the way, I am not saying that Allan's comment is a (DELETED) I have no issue with it (DELETED)

Yes, I missed that, sorry about that, particularly my tone, but it does change the context completely.

As to my "opinions", no it is a fact that riders with skills (perceived or otherwise) have many more accidents and are therefor less safe. I sure as hell can't do "wheelies", or ride through a busy street at 80kph, or ride around a bend so fast I need to put my knee down, but it sure as hell ends in plenty of accidents. On the other hand these people who take their bikes to the market at snails pace, never have an accident of any consequence in their lives.

I think you are confusing the issue here, sure, if both unskilled and skilled were to ride the same way. the unskilled would have many more accidents, perhaps all of them, but they don't.

[Shurup]

AllanB, has there been a research to support your "facts" showing that majority of accidents were caused by skilled/experienced riders, rather than unskilled newbies? Link please.

[RubberSideDown]

'Skill' as far as a street rider is concerned goes way beyond high-performance riding- it has to do with risk and threat assessment, and a knowledge base that extends past 'twist this and squeeze that'- to say that unskilled riders are actually safer than skilled riders was and continues to be the most foolish thing I've read on this forum, and that's really saying something, especially by someone who claims to be so safety conscious and considers himself to be 'above average' (and therefore at more risk than he was when he first started riding and knew nothing, I would assume).

Skill is NOT 'perceived or otherwise'- it's either present or it's not- to qualify it like that lumps the skilled and unskilled (who assume they know what they're doing) into the same group, which shows cognitive dissonance on the part of the person attempting to make the argument.

Of the 25,000 or so road fatalties Thailand sees every year, ~65% were on scooters- it's a shame we lose ~16,000 of the skillful annually- you'd think as the better riders were killed off, the death rate would drop as the dummies took over.

Really, this concept of 'skilled is dangerous' is Orwellian- 'Freedom is slavery' and (especially) 'Ignorance is strength' come to mind.

Better riders are less likely to have an accident than less-skilled riders if they're riding in the same environment- no one with an ounce of rider knowledge is dragging a knee in heavy traffic or popping wheelies during rush hour- they're too busy scanning the road for the best possible position for their bikes and observing the traffic surrounding them and looking for potential trouble- the unskilled riders are simply riding with the hope and expectation that the skills of the others on the road are sufficient to keep them alive- the skilled riders are influencing their own environments as much as possible and are depending on themselves for their safety.

[puukao]

good tires make a huge difference, and right psi (depends on temperature of road).

stiff frame better....well, this gets pretty complicated.....

100kph on a big bike can be way safer...

if you can't lick the ground in a corner, you are doing it all wrong!!!!

[AllanB]

'Skill' as far as a street rider is concerned goes way beyond high-performance riding- it has to do with risk and threat assessment, and a knowledge base that extends past 'twist this and squeeze that'- to say that unskilled riders are actually safer than skilled riders was and continues to be the most foolish thing I've read on this forum, and that's really saying something, especially by someone who claims to be so safety conscious and considers himself to be 'above average' (and therefore at more risk than he was when he first started riding and knew nothing, I would assume).

Skill is NOT 'perceived or otherwise'- it's either present or it's not- to qualify it like that lumps the skilled and unskilled (who assume they know what they're doing) into the same group, which shows cognitive dissonance on the part of the person attempting to make the argument.

Of the 25,000 or so road fatalties Thailand sees every year, ~65% were on scooters- it's a shame we lose ~16,000 of the skillful annually- you'd think as the better riders were killed off, the death rate would drop as the dummies took over.

Really, this concept of 'skilled is dangerous' is Orwellian- 'Freedom is slavery' and (especially) 'Ignorance is strength' come to mind.

Better riders are less likely to have an accident than less-skilled riders if they're riding in the same environment- no one with an ounce of rider knowledge is dragging a knee in heavy traffic or popping wheelies during rush hour- they're too busy scanning the road for the best possible position for their bikes and observing the traffic surrounding them and looking for potential trouble- the unskilled riders are simply riding with the hope and expectation that the skills of the others on the road are sufficient to keep them alive- the skilled riders are influencing their own environments as much as possible and are depending on themselves for their safety.

Skill is NOT 'perceived or otherwise'- it's either present or it's not- to qualify it like that lumps the skilled and unskilled (who assume they know what they're doing) into the same group, which shows cognitive dissonance on the part of the person attempting to make the argument.

So you went from unskilled to skilled overnight did you? What complete rubbish, developing skills is achieved over a period of time and emanates from experimentation, trial and error. During that time is the "risk period" and that continues... It is infinitely variable too and because we are humans we do have a certain perception of ourselves, which includes our abilities, that is why we have accidents "shit I thought I could do that", "I don't know how that happened".

Do you really think an old lady taking her fuktongs to market on her 10 year old Wave has ever taken any of the risks that you have?

Edited April 5, 2015 by AllanB

[Shurup]

Skill is NOT 'perceived or otherwise'- it's either present or it's not- to qualify it like that lumps the skilled and unskilled (who assume they know what they're doing) into the same group, which shows cognitive dissonance on the part of the person attempting to make the argument.

So you went from unskilled to skilled overnight did you? What complete rubbish, developing skills is achieved over a period of time and emanates from experimentation, trial and error. During that time is the "risk period" and that continues... It is infinitely variable too and because we are humans we do have a certain perception of ourselves, which includes our abilities, that is why we have accidents "shit I thought I could do that", "I don't know how that happened".

Do you really think an old lady taking her fuktongs to market on her 10 year old Wave has ever taken any of the risks that you have?

Did you bump your head?

[RubberSideDown]

Hmmm... nice introduction of a straw man (overnight?) You're correct in a sense, though- my braking skills, my risk assessment skills, my roadcraft skills, etc were developed over a period of time- your 'old lady' will one day meet a situation she should be able to easily avoid (if she hasn't aready- most Thais have several accidents under their belts in their lives, and many bear scars), and she'll crash (as would you, most likely), where I would be able to deftly avoid it and continue merrily on my way.

I don't take 'risks' in traffic (I really don't take 'risks' at all beyond getting on the bike in he first place)- I assess my environment and proceed in a safe manner- that 'safe manner' may be faster than you'd choose to go, but as I'm no doubt many levels above you in skill, I'd still be safer than you would in any case. We could ride the exact same bike, and I'd stop in a shorter distance from a given speed than you, I'd hold a line better than you could, and I'd anticipate better than you- it wasn't necessary for me to take risks to gain these skills, but it took a lot of practice and study in both classroom and practical areas like tracks and parking lots where I could try new skills in a safe setting. Have you ever done a braking drill? I doubt it. I know you rode an unsafe bike for a year that you'd stall at stoplights and it wouldn't fire up again for several minutes- how street-smart was that? And you're a person who can make assessments of skill...?

You'll always be a rubbish rider as you have no interest in becoming a good one, and you'll always have to hope that the others sharing the road with you are riding safely enough to save you as you don't have the skills to have a chance at saving yourself if it really comes down to it. 'Ignorance is strength', right, Allan?

Edited April 5, 2015 by RubberSideDown

[wantan]

I like Allans point. At least he has the balls to think in different ways and to talk about it well knowing he will get attacked soon. Thats the way to go if you want to get new insights out of discussions. Some members dont want to understand that life and human behaviour is a bit more difficult than just thinking in yes/no and black/white categories.

But topic was "Are big bikes safer than scooters?" not "Please tell me more about your riding skills and how you would classify other members riding skills"

Edited April 5, 2015 by wantan

[casindonet]

Even a bicycle is dangerous if a person drives like an idiot & thinks that he/she owns the road

[andreandre]

I like Allans point. At least he has the balls to think in different ways and to talk about it well knowing he will get attacked soon. Thats the way to go if you want to get new insights out of discussions. Some members dont want to understand that life and human behaviour is a bit more difficult than just thinking in yes/no and black/white categories.

But topic was "Are big bikes safer than scooters?" not "Please tell me more about your riding skills and how you would classify other members riding skills"

It comes down to what i posted #79..

it really is a nonsense thread...time to move on

PS;as for the age on bikes furphy.......

[Gweiloman]

I like Allans point. At least he has the balls to think in different ways and to talk about it well knowing he will get attacked soon. Thats the way to go if you want to get new insights out of discussions. Some members dont want to understand that life and human behaviour is a bit more difficult than just thinking in yes/no and black/white categories.

But topic was "Are big bikes safer than scooters?" not "Please tell me more about your riding skills and how you would classify other members riding skills"

It comes down to what i posted #79..

it really is a nonsense thread...time to move on

PS;as for the age on bikes furphy.......11133718_1578343862408156_966044855211331756_n.jpg

Bye. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.