Court refuses to pinpoint which side killed Japanese cameraman in 2010

[In Town]

def: multi-colour shirts = yellow shirts on wash day.

[EnglishJohn]

who had motive to shoot him and take his recorded footage, I have my own thoughts on that

The army? ?

Jeez, you make up your own cock-and-bull story that he 'crossed some line' and this is the evidence that he must have been murdered. Then some dufus replies to say 'the army' when it is as clear as day you were trying to blame them ???.

Did I jump into an alternative reality populated with simpletons ?.

[rametindallas]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Aren't you overlooking the fact of the televised display of the captured military weapons on the Red stage after the Kok Wua debacle? Have you not seen the youtube vidios of Men in Black carrying military weapons?

The caliber of the bullet means nothing as there is proof that both sides had access to all calibers. When a person is struck by a large caliber bullet, off-center, it tend to cause their body to spin, more or less, and making the direction of the source nearly impossible to prove.

Face it. There simply wasn't enough conclusive evidence to prove who shot the journalist but, as a matter of world publicity, it would benefit the Red Shirts immensely if the world thought the Thai army killed him and the government stood to gain absolutely nothing from the death of any journalist. In any case, the truth in Thailand is what you want it to be and even the real truth will not bring back the life of that brave journalist.

[rubl]

Currently Thailand is controlled by the military.

"It cannot be said who the shooters were or which direction the bullets came from," the judge said.

Funny how these two sentences seem to be a natural ordering....

Not at all are they in any order. If the police that investigated the crime couldn't determine, the shooter, how could the courts? You seem to be able to do it with ease. Why haven't you presented your evidence to the courts? Please share with them your first hand knowledge of that night so that this case can be laid to rest.Why have you taken so long to do it?

there was evidence presented which came from witnesses. There was evidence from the autopsies. Past courts have been able to render judgements in similar cases with similar evidence, but this one could not ...

Could be coincidence... of course! But given the military's history of meddling in these cases and specifically the interference from the generals leading the crackdown, as well as the complicity of the courts in the politics of the last decade, it is not unreasonable to think that there could be a connection between the two.

The interesting part is in the fact that even members here seem unable to come with photo's or clips which clearly show matters. Normally we get loads of them, even if with conflicting descriptions.

Could be coincidence ... of course, but maybe there simply isn't any materiel.

[Docno]

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

The one source being the Army? That conveniently over looks the reality that Thai Army weapons and munitions regularly go missing even from supposed secure Army sites. And also that Thaksins chief in arms of his treason attacks on Bangkok (Sah Dueang) was also high ranking renegade Army and would have been probably able to secure the same munitions. It also conveniently overlooks that Thaksins Men in Black were also armed with heavy modern weaponry.

Remarkably some in this thread have already concluded it is the Army without the knowledge of even knowing what the calibres were or considering all the options. But then that is common for a lot on this site.

Remarkably some in this thread have already concluded it was the red shirts without the knowledge of even knowing what the calibre a were or considering all the options, But then again the is common for a lot on this site.

Are you familiar with what weapons use .308/.338 rounds?

I am and I can assure you if the redshirts had these weapons especially the with claims of the MIB, as a highly trained "military" type of unit there would have been a lot more Army fatalities, which thankfully there wasn't.

The claims they were highly trained where made by the UDD leaders and then the denying they said it commenced after they found it did not suit their agenda…Sigh…...

Love the logic though. Because the MIB did not kill many soldiers they did not exist or were common untrained street thugs or were unarmed. The lack of fatalities on the soldiers side shows the military were correct in coming in and shutting down the terrorists when they did and Suthep and Ahbisit are to be commended for potentially saving a lot of innocent soldiers lives.

It is a sad ending to the court case though with the only light at the end of the tunnel being Tida as a representative of the 7%'ers actually respecting a court verdict instead of allowing her supporters to burn effigies of the judges or throw sh*t at the court houses. That fact alone justifies article 44.

But then, will see the court house bombed in the coming weeks.

"Love the logic though. Because the MIB did not kill many soldiers they did not exist or were common untrained street thugs or were unarmed. The lack of fatalities on the soldiers side shows the military were correct in coming in and shutting down the terrorists when they did and Suthep and Ahbisit are to be commended for potentially saving a lot of innocent soldiers lives."

Love your logic too. So the 'lack of fatalities on the soldiers side' shows the crackdown was justified?? Let me share with you two alternative universes:

1. 'lack of fatalities on the soldiers side' shows that the red shirts did not pose a significant threat or else more soldiers would have been killed; therefore, the violent crackdown was not justified, OR
2. 'the many fatalities on the soldiers side' show just how dangerous the red shirts were and provides ample justification for the crackdown

Either of these two statements, based on opposite assertions, would be more logical than yours.

[Docno]

Whatever the truth might be, if it is possible that the army did something wrong here, it will never come to light under the current circumstances. This holds true whatever your sentiments toward the red shirts might be...

[Docno]

who had motive to shoot him and take his recorded footage, I have my own thoughts on that, the man was trying to do his job and report without being restricted or told what to film and what not to film, he evidently crossed that line and was murdered

"who had motive to shoot him and take his recorded footage, I have my own thoughts on that"

Care to share your thoughts? The reds returned his camera and film to Reuters. So am I to assume that you agree that it was the army that wanted to 'shut him down'?

[NCFC]

I sincerely hope Japan retaliates by banning all Thai flights. Hit the elites where it hurts.

[NeverSure]

I just reread the news articles here. There is no way for us to have a clue what happened from this:

"Although the judge acknowledged that "reliable" witnesses testified hearing gunshots from the military position, none of them clearly saw who fired the bullets, and no witness saw the moment the three victims were shot.

In addition, no bullets were found in the bodies of the three men, so the court was unable to determine the type of ammunition or direction of the gunfire, the judge said."

By NATO convention all military rounds are FMJ (full metal jacket) and aren't designed to expand on impact. Any of them can go right through a body unless they hit something solid. Even the smaller 5.56 (M16) will go right through the head of a deer and I've witnessed that. Of course the deer is instantly dead.

It isn't necessarily wrong to suspect corruption via hiding evidence but I sure can't tell what happened from the information released.

Cheers

[Fat Haggis]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Aren't you overlooking the fact of the televised display of the captured military weapons on the Red stage after the Kok Wua debacle? Have you not seen the youtube vidios of Men in Black carrying military weapons?

The caliber of the bullet means nothing as there is proof that both sides had access to all calibers. When a person is struck by a large caliber bullet, off-center, it tend to cause their body to spin, more or less, and making the direction of the source nearly impossible to prove.

Face it. There simply wasn't enough conclusive evidence to prove who shot the journalist but, as a matter of world publicity, it would benefit the Red Shirts immensely if the world thought the Thai army killed him and the government stood to gain absolutely nothing from the death of any journalist. In any case, the truth in Thailand is what you want it to be and even the real truth will not bring back the life of that brave journalist.

I haven't seen any red shirts carrying .308/.338 sniper rifles and there was no reports of the army having any taken from them, I see(n) plenty of M16's ,tavors and AK47 the first two being 5.56mm and the AK is 7.62 short.

where on earth did you get the large calibre bullet causes a person to spin when hit? That's Holywood bullshit, seriously you believe it can't determine a direction of where the round came from? How many firefights have you been in to state this is what happens, it's not the calibre that Knocks people down, it's the range and the kinetic energy of the round fired which can vary depending on the manufacturer and the charge inside, some 5.56mm ammo has a bigger punch than others, same with AK ammo.

You do realise that rounds once they hit flesh and bone fragment inside the cavities they cause, and quite often these fragments can determine the calibre of the rounds used?

The article I linked on a red shirt who was shot in the head the fragments came from a calibre of sniper rifle only the army has?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/7729061/Home-made-rockets-vs-army-snipers-on-the-frontline-of-the-Thai-protests.html

You are right that the evidence was inconclusive on the reporter, who benefits more from this result? As I also said, green or red, doesn't matter the family will never know the truth.

[rametindallas]

I would have thought that to establish the direction from where the bullets were fired from is a fairly basic exercise in forensics today>??

Did they not recover the bullets? If so then this was a very high velocity bullet, possibly a solid nose, and usually the type fired by the army.

Despite witnesses hearing the direction of the firing and the very unlikely scenario of the protesters murdering their own.....this whole thing stinks.

Are we at all surprised?? Did anyone seriously beleive that a Thai court with Thai "Judges" would want to get to the truth and point the finger at the army??

Not entirely true, using sounds to gauge where the fatal shit came from, but witness statements of where he was standing and the direction he was facing and then doing basic line of sight appreciation would give you decent idea of the firers position.

Alm they are saying as well is that it was a "high velocity" that doesn't really help as it could be any calibre between .22 and 7.62 and even larger up to .50 inch. I'm pretty sure an autopsy is quite thorough enough to be able to determine the calibre these days too.

Should it have revealed that the cause of death was a .308/.338 that kind of narrows the weapons down.....considerably and really only points to one source.

The sad part here is the family are still none the closer to finding out the truth in his death and the finger pointing will continue, even more so here!!

Aren't you overlooking the fact of the televised display of the captured military weapons on the Red stage after the Kok Wua debacle? Have you not seen the youtube vidios of Men in Black carrying military weapons?

The caliber of the bullet means nothing as there is proof that both sides had access to all calibers. When a person is struck by a large caliber bullet, off-center, it tend to cause their body to spin, more or less, and making the direction of the source nearly impossible to prove.

Face it. There simply wasn't enough conclusive evidence to prove who shot the journalist but, as a matter of world publicity, it would benefit the Red Shirts immensely if the world thought the Thai army killed him and the government stood to gain absolutely nothing from the death of any journalist. In any case, the truth in Thailand is what you want it to be and even the real truth will not bring back the life of that brave journalist.

I haven't seen any red shirts carrying .308/.338 sniper rifles and there was no reports of the army having any taken from them, I see(n) plenty of M16's ,tavors and AK47 the first two being 5.56mm and the AK is 7.62 short.

where on earth did you get the large calibre bullet causes a person to spin when hit? That's Holywood bullshit, seriously you believe it can't determine a direction of where the round came from? How many firefights have you been in to state this is what happens, it's not the calibre that Knocks people down, it's the range and the kinetic energy of the round fired which can vary depending on the manufacturer and the charge inside, some 5.56mm ammo has a bigger punch than others, same with AK ammo.

You do realise that rounds once they hit flesh and bone fragment inside the cavities they cause, and quite often these fragments can determine the calibre of the rounds used?

The article I linked on a red shirt who was shot in the head the fragments came from a calibre of sniper rifle only the army has?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/7729061/Home-made-rockets-vs-army-snipers-on-the-frontline-of-the-Thai-protests.html

You are right that the evidence was inconclusive on the reporter, who benefits more from this result? As I also said, green or red, doesn't matter the family will never know the truth.

To a forensic pathologist, a hole through a body from a 7.62 NATO (.308) is the same diameter as a hole made by AK47 which is also 7.62 mm in diameter. It is also impossible to tell the range it was fired from unless the bullet is so spent it lodges in the body or there is gunpowder residue from close range. When I was a teen, I killed hundreds of game animals and I will guarantee their bodies turn/spin when hit off-center so that you cannot look at the orientation of the carcass and know from which direction the bullet/shot blast came from. Bullet fragments cannot definitely tell the pathologist the caliber as it is a fragment and lead is lead no matter what the caliber. Until different calibers of bullets are made with lead compositions unique to that caliber, someone is just guessing. You don't need a sniper rifle to kill someone, either, so stop with the .308/.338 supposition because there is no evidence to support that supposition. BTW, your link is behind a pay-wall.

where on earth did you get the large calibre bullet causes a person to spin when hit?

If you have a strong stomach, go on youtube and type in snipers in Afghanistan. From more than a mile away, the 'targets' go flying into the air when struck by a 'large caliber' round.

[webfact]

Inquests into riot shootings fail to point finger at killers
The Nation

BANGKOK: - The Criminal Court's inquest into the killing of Hiroyuki Muramoto, a photojournalist for Reuters news agency, during the red-shirt riots in 2010 ended inconclusively yesterday after it failed to identify which side had fired the fatal bullet.

Another inquest into the killing of Wasu Suchantabut in 2013 while rallying against the Yingluck Shinawatra administration also came to a similar conclusion.

Hiroyuki was hit in the left side of his chest by a bullet from a high-velocity rifle on Din Sor Road in front of Satri Witthaya School near Democracy Monument on the evening of April 10, 2010. He was covering the protest and clashes between the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) and security officers during the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration.

The bullet pierced and destroyed his lung and a main artery. He was pronounced dead at 9pm.

The bullet type could not be identified because it did not lodge in his body. Video records were also inadequate in providing evidence on the bullet's trajectory.

The second inquest result released yesterday said it was unclear who aimed a high-velocity rifle at Vasant Phuthong, a red-shirt protester, or which direction the bullet came from. He took the bullet in the left side of his head.

The third victim, Thodchai Maek-ngamfah, another red-shirt protester, was hit from behind by an unidentified bullet that penetrated his heart.

Jaetsada Chandee, the attorney for the three killed, said he would study the details of the inquest results first before recommending the next step.

In Muramoto's case, he will notify the Japanese Embassy and his family.

However, previous inquests had suggested that the two Thais were killed by security forces, he said.

UDD chairwomen Thida Thavornsaet Tojirakarn said from the courthouse that while she respects the result, it's apparent to many that the bullets came from the direction of the deployed soldiers.

The forensic investigation also showed that the 5mm bullets used in the attacks were the same as those used by soldiers and not the kind fired by AK assault rifles, which were allegedly used by the "men in black" who appeared on site that evening, she said.

The truth should not be lost. Transcending political conflicts requires making the truth known, she said.

In the other politics-related inquest, the Criminal Court ruled that that it was unclear who killed Wasu, who was a protester and guard for the Network of Students and People for Reform of Thailand, an ally of the People's Democratic Reform Committee.

There was no witness to Wasu's shooting on May 26, 2013 at the Labour Ministry in Din Daeng district where the protest took place, the court said.

The forensic investigation showed that the Australia-educated Wasu was shot in his abdomen. He lost a lot of blood and was pronounced dead at the hospital on the following day.

Tipapa, Wasu's mother, said she accepted the inquest, even though it could not pinpoint the killer.

No compensation has been offered by any government agency for the loss of her son, but anyone providing clues leading to the arrest of his killer would be rewarded with Bt1 million, she said.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Inquests-into-riot-shootings-fail-to-point-finger--30259131.html


-- The Nation 2015-05-01

[Thaddeus]

When I was a teen, I killed hundreds of game animals and I will guarantee their bodies turn/spin when hit off-center so that you cannot look at the orientation of the carcass and know from which direction the bullet/shot blast came from.

That logic works if you shoot rabbits, not bears, relative mass and all that.