Are More or Fewer Westerners Relocating to Thailand?

[lostoday]

1. So you have statistics about how much two tier pricing is actually happening. Link please

2. The thread is about westerners as a whole, not about retired person only

3. Please provide instructions how to make a French cheeseor cut an Australian beef tenderloin from a local cow.

4. There is a thread in the news forum today that the number of inmates doubled between 2010 and 2014, not really a sign of lower crime rate.

1. I never get charged Farang prices 100% of the time and that has been true for the many years I have lived in Thailand. I shop at Lotus (no two tier pricing). I shop at Home pro (no two tier pricing). I shop at Lazada (no two tier pricing). I drink coffee at Starbucks (no two tier pricing). I don't go to the zoo. If you get charged more than you think is fair gee don't keep going there. That's not rocket science now is it?

2. I can respond to whomever I like and the person who I was responding to was making a comment about moving to Thailand (which he never did) when he was retired. I find no good reason why anyone who is not retired would relocate to Thailand so why would I respond to them.

3. The doctor told me not to eat cheese and I find Australian beef inedible by my standards so I would not eat it. I eat Waygu beef preferably from Japan which is available in Thailand. Tenderloins for steaks don't come from cows anyway they come from steers. So it is a moot point about the Thai cow.

4. I looked in the news forum and found nothing about inmates doubling. Which thread was it?

Edited May 6, 2015 by lostoday

[TheCruncher]

1. So you have statistics about how much two tier pricing is actually happening. Link please

2. The thread is about westerners as a whole, not about retired person only

3. Please provide instructions how to make a French cheeseor cut an Australian beef tenderloin from a local cow.

4. There is a thread in the news forum today that the number of inmates doubled between 2010 and 2014, not really a sign of lower crime rate.

1. I never get charged Farang prices 100% of the time and that has been true for the many years I have lived in Thailand. I shop at Lotus (no two tier pricing). I shop at Home pro (no two tier pricing). I shop at Lazada (no two tier pricing). I drink coffee at Starbucks (no two tier pricing). I don't go to the zoo. If you get charged more than you think is fair gee don't keep going there. That's not rocket science now is it?

2. I can respond to whomever I like and the person who I was responding to was making a comment about moving to Thailand (which he never did) when he was retired. I find no good reason why anyone who is not retired would relocate to Thailand so why would I respond to them.

3. The doctor told me not to eat cheese and I find Australian beef inedible by my standards so I would not eat it. I eat Waygu beef preferably from Japan which is available in Thailand. Tenderloins for steaks don't come from cows anyway they come from steers. So it is a moot point about the Thai cow.

4. I looked in the news forum and found nothing about inmates doubling. Which thread was it?

Keep twisting and turning words Kelly, even if you say it often enough doesn't make it a truth.

1. You claimed that two tier pricing in Thailand accounts for only 1%, but since you don't have a link to any statistics it's clear you sucked that out of your thumb. There are many other places to shop than Homepro and Starbucks, by the way please let us know where those mentioned shops are in Surin.FAIL

2. Yeah you can respond to anyone, but the thread is about if more Westerners are relocating or not. FAIL

3. I don't care what your doctor tells you, AloisAmrein said that there was very limited western food available, and you denied that. I asked where once 15km outside the tourist ghetto's western food was available, and you still haven't answered the question. Now you say that Japanese beef is available, please provide a location in Issaan, FAIL

4. Since you are even not able to find a thread that was started only today, it says enough about your other observation capabilities. FAIL

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/822930-thailands-drug-penalties-unfair-laws-need-rethink/

[lostoday]

If you get charged more than a Thai person don't go back. If you want Farang food learn to cook because basic cooking supplies are available anywhere in Thailand. It is the same in any country that is not your native country.

You have to make some adjustments. Some people can others keep whining about it. The person I was responding to became so depressed by reading all the negative things about he didn't even try it.

The poster above asked where to get Wagyu beef in Issan. OK https://www.facebook.com/wagyuparadise?fref=nf

I've lived here a long time and two tier pricing does not bother anyone I know; it is one of those Thai Visa arguments that has no meaning to anyone clued into Thailand. If I was a young man I would not put up with the visa problems and That's why I said I would only recommend retired people living in Thailand because the visa problems are minimal and not a bother.

Thailand and many other countries have aging populations and that brings reduced crime. I think drug crimes are going up in Thailand. They have gone up dramatically since I've been here. I hope Thailand gets a handle on it and when they do incarceration rates will go down.

My point in responding to the initial post that I did was a response to AloisAmrein. Who recited a litany of problems that had nothing to do with him leaving Thailand because he never tried moving here in the first place. Just another negative off topic Thai bash.

Thailand is an adventure, its not boring but people who can't cope and adjust; people who require French Cheese or Australian beef would be advised to either have enough cash to pay for imports or not come here.

I think expats are less likely to come to Thailand based on the currency rates and unstable political situation - that's not rocket science but they are not leaving because of two tier pricing or lack of Western food. Are the Russians leaving in droves because of the political situation? No. They are leaving because they don't have any money anymore. Can the Russians get borscht in Issan? I don't know. But you can get all the ingredients.

Expats come in all different sizes and the reasons for them staying are not all the same. It depends on what country they come from and what age they are and how well off financially and emotionally they are.

Why would an expat who left Thailand still read Thai Visa and post negative things about Thailand? I have left other countries and have left other women and I've just moved on.

[does]

It would be interesting to have official figures from the government/immigration covering the period 2008-2014. This would give us an idea if the financial crisis has had any impact on the expat numbers.

This survey outcome will be totally invalid as there is no time frame for the comparative..... for my penny, there are more coming to Thailand than when I was first here in 1980.... but for someone who came here only 2 or 3 years ago....This is a comparative survey without a defined baseline.... what a waste of an opportunity.....

[MANFROMBOCA]

"Keep in mind, the only flights from USA to Thailand are from California,( either San Francisco or L.A. ) and if you do not live in California, it requires other flights just to get to California." REALLY ???

I fly from bkk to doha to miami ( one of the cheapest routes to the usa) my brother flys from ny to hong kong to bkk my sons have also flown from atlanta to tokyo to bkk...

my plan is to stay until im 65 in pattaya, that will have put me here 10 years.. and i seem to like to move every 10 years. where to next.. dont know yet have 5 more years to figure it out.. maybe northern thailand ? cambodia ? vietnam ? maybe south america or central america many great choices there. who knows.. but wherever i end up it will be be fine as i make my life fine wherever i go, i seem to always find a source for my vices and people seem to be the same everywhere i go i guess it depends on your attitude and those you attract, or maybe im just lucky,,,,,

oh and yes it seems like there are far less less westerners moving and visiting here ( and the chinese arent the problem its allowing the buses into town thats becoming a huge problem )

[charmonman]

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I've been here nine years this October and have already purchased my ticket for Mexico. I could be perfectly happy for the rest of my life in Thailand if it weren't for the present government. My little inner voice is saying "get the heck outta Dodge," this man is not playing with a full deck of cards and that will eventually trickle down to all facets of life. It's already bad enough - as a musician it is illegal for me to play UNPAID in public, but the harassment from the BIB in Bangkok described by an earlier post can get worse as they grow bolder when the PM gets cemented into his position. And there are other circumstances we can't even mention on this forum that are going to cause a great upheaval. I don't want to be around for ANY of that. I arrived when Thaksin was ousted, and not a THING was noticed by me or my friends. THIS PM is making serious waves felt by all!

From what I have heard from friends, the harassment of musicians playing unpaid in public, just trying to have a bit of fun, was happening long before the current government. Also, during the Thaksin era there was plenty of other kinds of harassment going on as well. Frankly, I struggle to think of any Thai PM in the last couple of decades who was "playing with a full deck of cards".

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post containing racial slurs has been removed.

[harleyclarkey]

I can't see any westerners relocating to Thailand.

The press has just gotten too bad to feel you are going to a place where your quality of life will improve.

For sure as is said here every day, Thailand has changed dramatically .... and for the worse.

Hoards of Chinese and Russians and plane loads of louts from Europe have destroyed the place. Phuket, a one star island, with overpriced and too often filthy hotels and restaurants, is a Russian satellite and has gone down the dumps. Along with it's openly flaunted Mafia and street thugs is no longer a family destination.

In contrast Mauritius, where I now go, is a fantastic five star island. Genuine friendliness, english speaking relaxed smiling people, six star service like Thailand used to have, stunning beaches, police that will help you and won't shake you down.

Add in corruption from the very top, a residency/visa system (that changes on a whiim) designed to actually keep you out, open faced hostility from locals, no consumer protection, no medical services as we know from home, no police or courts service that will actually, and willingly help you, increasing violence, no property rights, the ever present threat of losing your property, , ...etc...etc...etc.

You would want to be a fool to relocate to Thailand when the rest of the world is at your feet.

I truly feel a sense of loss of what was a world class stunning place to visit/live and sadly having to watch this degeneration over 30 years.

The corrupt class has made a world class mess out of Thailand.

Edited May 7, 2015 by harleyclarkey

[Tonto21]

Firstly the topic..................More or less westerners in Thailand? I haven't seen any change in the numbers, up or down. But having said that I'm probably not the best person to judge as I don't live in a built up area or a tourist hot spot. For me, there are always lots of westerners in and around the cities, but I think this because on a day to day basic I don't see or interact with them, so I notice more.

As this thread has stumbled of the track a fair bit I don't think it would be out of place to make an off-topic observation......... There seems to me are some very angry and poorly informed individuals stating opinions as facts, (TV, across the board) I'm not referring every reply, or anyone's opinions that doesn't coincide with my own necessarily. That's called a difference of opinion.

Opinion are, (for the most) based on personal experience................... There are some posting on TV that could do with actually spending some time in Thailand and when here, getting out of the tourist areas....Then they would have the attention they crave when posting......... for the right reason.

[Thaidream]

This will be my first post- having been an avid reader-for years.

I first came to Thailand almost 50 years ago-Don Muang had no air conditioning and you could only stay for 15 days on a visa free entry and 30 days on a tourist visa. An extension of visa required a $1000 bond posted in a Thai bank , which in those days was a huge amount of money .Immigration procedures have improved greatly. Through the years I was married 3 times to Thais-the first time 25 years-spouse died; second time a few years-divorced; and now for almost 13 years. During this span I have had almost every visa there is except the Residence Visa and have lived in Thailand exclusively for more than 20 years, working abroad the rest of the time. I do speak good Thai but not fluent.

Thailand has changed a lot in those almost 50 years- some for the good and some not so good. You definitely need much patience to live here. However, much of the negative changes have come as a result of the ever increasing encroachment of Western culture into Thailand. I remember times, even in Bangkok, when I would walk the streets and Thais would actually stop and stare as they had never seen a Westerner before. As time went on and as Thais interacted more and more with Non-Thais, they have picked up some of the worst habits of those cultures. In addition. Western movies, music and the internet have also had an affect on how Thais view the world and us. In my opinion, not very positive.

The first time I ever came to Thailand- I loved it and I still do. There is still much good in the Thai way of life. Thais still will smile-however, you may have to smile first. Most Thais will treat you with respect as long as you treat them with respect. Just remember this; you are not Thai and never will be considered Thai , no matter how immersed you become in the culture.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that the tourist industry has damaged Thailand- over built areas; high prices and corruption. I know many Thais feel the same way. They wish most of us would go away or somewhere else and frankly, long term expats, feel the same way. I don't think either the Thai or Expat dislike any particular group- but fatigue has set in.

I can only suggest those of us who stay here to find that place or niche which makes you happy. As for me, I have moved away from Bangkok to a rural area within 2-3 hours of Bangkok. If I need some excitement- it is within range; but when I want the peace I stay at home. I would tell you where it is but if you've read my comments- I hope you will understand why I won't.

Best Wishes and Cheers to All

[ggt]

Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

[lostoday]

Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

I went to the USA, UK, Australia, France, Germany and Finland first. Then I went to Poland and the Ukraine and the Crimea. After that I took a side trip to Syria and Yemen and Somalia. Now what were you saying?.........

Edit to add, I would have stayed in Canada except the price of my Thai home in Canada is like three gazillion dollars.

Edited May 7, 2015 by lostoday

[TheCruncher]

Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

I went to the USA, UK, Australia, France, Germany and Finland first. Then I went to Poland and the Ukraine and the Crimea. After that I took a side trip to Syria and Yemen and Somalia. Now what were you saying?.........

Edit to add, I would have stayed in Canada except the price of my Thai home in Canada is like three gazillion dollars.

The home you rent near Laem Chabang?

[lostoday]

Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

I went to the USA, UK, Australia, France, Germany and Finland first. Then I went to Poland and the Ukraine and the Crimea. After that I took a side trip to Syria and Yemen and Somalia. Now what were you saying?.........

Edit to add, I would have stayed in Canada except the price of my Thai home in Canada is like three gazillion dollars.

The home you rent near Laem Chabang?

No and I don't rent but that is my personal business not for sharing. Always remember advice is worth what you pay for it.

[Berkshire]

Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

Now why would you make such an asinine comment like that? You don't speak for all westerners. I can easily call your home of choice a shit hole...according to me. And I would be right....according to me.

[ggt]

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Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

I went to the USA, UK, Australia, France, Germany and Finland first. Then I went to Poland and the Ukraine and the Crimea. After that I took a side trip to Syria and Yemen and Somalia. Now what were you saying?.........

Edit to add, I would have stayed in Canada except the price of my Thai home in Canada is like three gazillion dollars.

I was referring to people who had enough moxie to compare apples to apples...

[fey]

In sheer numbers 75% of my friends that retired here moved back to the USA. Some are thinking of visiting South America, some are considering returning to try Vietnam or PI.

The only friends that remain here are because they have a wife and home here. The single guys all left. The married guys whose spouse had a U.S. Passport are gone. The hardcore guys that used to come whenever they had vacation time are going elsewhere.

The complaints range from the visa system is a pain to just a general feeling that Thailand has changed since they opened the floodgates to the Chinese a few years ago.

I retired here in February. I thought I and my wife who holds a U.S. Passport would live on the beach and relax. But the reality is this place has changed. The infrastructure is overwhelmed by masses of Chinese tourists. Their busses block traffic such that it feels like I'm in Bangkok at times. Their sheer numbers and lack of civility ruin the beach or any destination you take the family to. I came to Thailand because of its slow pace, nice beaches, etc. Sadly this looks more like a province in China than the Thailand I remembered.

Hopefully Hua Hin is better as we are going there next week. I heard Phuket is overrun with Chinese as well?

Haha when i first came i was looking for the quiet beach and palm trees too. Did not every really find the peace and tranquility aspect.

I think you really need to try South America for that Costa Rica, mexico etc. for that kind of thing. Just too many motorbikes, crowds and high strung people in asia to get that quiet brochure type retirement. I'm surprised there are as many retirees over here as there are.

[50baht]

Are Russians considered Western ? If so then Yes.

they "retire" here 3-4 months a year and share condos with friends rotating in and out.

[lostoday]

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Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

I went to the USA, UK, Australia, France, Germany and Finland first. Then I went to Poland and the Ukraine and the Crimea. After that I took a side trip to Syria and Yemen and Somalia. Now what were you saying?.........

Edit to add, I would have stayed in Canada except the price of my Thai home in Canada is like three gazillion dollars.

I was referring to people who had enough moxie to compare apples to apples...

People compare Thailand with the USA everyday on Thai Visa; ask Neversure. I don't know what moxie has to do with it. I compared countries to retire before I came to Thailand and chose Thailand. If you will notice all of the countries I listed have some things in common with Thailand. You are just wrong. Admit it.

Apples are not the same for everyone. Let's say women are apples. Some people like Thai women some don't. Lets say food is apples. Some people like Thai food some don't. Lets say weather is apples; some people like Thai weather some don't.

You were trying to apply your apples to my apples and that only works if I happen to agree with you which I don't. Your definition of apples is no better than mine and I don't agree with yours.

[TigerandDog]

After coming to Thailand for 10 years on holidays, I moved here (BKK) last September. My mates back in Oz will also be moving here when they are ready to retire. There are many differences between the way things are done her to Oz, but that's Thailand, and part of the reason we all love the place. If it was the exactly the same as our home countries there would be no reason to come here other than weather and cheaper cost of living. It's a shame there are so many whingers on TV. Rather than hop on TV and complain, if people are so unhappy here, why not just go back home or find another place to live.

Last September!!!!!!

Give it time.

I've spent enough time in Thailand over the last 10 years to know what to expect. As I said, many things are done differently here, but that was something that I took into consideration when planning to move here permanently. Perhaps all the whingers didn't do enough research, or spend enough time in Thailand ( and I mean away from holiday destinations ) before making the decision to move here. If that's the case, then they can only blame themselves for being unhappy, not the way Thais do things.

[TigerandDog]

I can't see any westerners relocating to Thailand.

The press has just gotten too bad to feel you are going to a place where your quality of life will improve.

For sure as is said here every day, Thailand has changed dramatically .... and for the worse.

Hoards of Chinese and Russians and plane loads of louts from Europe have destroyed the place. Phuket, a one star island, with overpriced and too often filthy hotels and restaurants, is a Russian satellite and has gone down the dumps. Along with it's openly flaunted Mafia and street thugs is no longer a family destination.

In contrast Mauritius, where I now go, is a fantastic five star island. Genuine friendliness, english speaking relaxed smiling people, six star service like Thailand used to have, stunning beaches, police that will help you and won't shake you down.

Add in corruption from the very top, a residency/visa system (that changes on a whiim) designed to actually keep you out, open faced hostility from locals, no consumer protection, no medical services as we know from home, no police or courts service that will actually, and willingly help you, increasing violence, no property rights, the ever present threat of losing your property, , ...etc...etc...etc.

You would want to be a fool to relocate to Thailand when the rest of the world is at your feet.

I truly feel a sense of loss of what was a world class stunning place to visit/live and sadly having to watch this degeneration over 30 years.

The corrupt class has made a world class mess out of Thailand.

I have to challenge you on 1 point, viz. NO PROPERT RIGHTS. For anybody that has done their research thoroughly, they will be aware that after residing in Thailand for 5 years, you can apply for Thai citizenship. Once citizenship is granted, you have EXACTLY the same rights as Thais, you can own land, work without a work permit, set up your own business the same way as the Thais do etc, and you don't have to renounce your home country citizenship unless your home country does not allow dual citizenship. All I can say is that it appears to me that most of the whingers in TV have NOT done their research thoroughly.

[Wadan]

Which Thailand are you talking about, and or are you on the same planet. Just get it together and see what is happening now in Cambodia, Philippines, Portugal, Malaysia, Spain, Latin America and South America. Maybe you are fed so much crap that you even believe in your own delusions.

[tlcwaterfall]

Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

I went to the USA, UK, Australia, France, Germany and Finland first. Then I went to Poland and the Ukraine and the Crimea. After that I took a side trip to Syria and Yemen and Somalia. Now what were you saying?.........

Edit to add, I would have stayed in Canada except the price of my Thai home in Canada is like three gazillion dollars.

You say you went to all of the above places! Why did you go there?

Were you in those places for holidays, business or were you there to investigate them as a possible retirement destination?

Would love to know your reasons for choosing Thailand.

The places you went to are not part of asia (except Australia). Did you not consider investigating other asian countries as a possible place to live?

[lostoday]

Westerners who do their homework and visit several counties before relocating...will not choose Thailand to live...visit...maybe...

I went to the USA, UK, Australia, France, Germany and Finland first. Then I went to Poland and the Ukraine and the Crimea. After that I took a side trip to Syria and Yemen and Somalia. Now what were you saying?.........

Edit to add, I would have stayed in Canada except the price of my Thai home in Canada is like three gazillion dollars.

You say you went to all of the above places! Why did you go there?

Were you in those places for holidays, business or were you there to investigate them as a possible retirement destination?

Would love to know your reasons for choosing Thailand.

The places you went to are not part of asia (except Australia). Did you not consider investigating other asian countries as a possible place to live?

1. Health care had to be available. 2. Banking had to be available. That knocked the Middle East and African countries out of the game. Singapore and Hong Kong are too expensive and I have a personal reason for not wanting to go to Vietnam.

It was a long process and finally my choices came down to America, Canada and Thailand.

Realize I'm making this a very short explanation.....

Thailand won because of the eye contact and gorilla test. 1. (Old Man) Walk in a grocery store in America and Canada and Thailand and makes eye contact with the best looking women in the store. America and Canada you either can't or you get smacked or arrested. In Thailand you get mutual eye contact and a smile.

2. A Lady marries a gorilla in Thailand and America and Canada. The gorilla has a big sack of money and anytime the lady points to something she wants the gorilla buys it. America the neighbors call the cops and the lady is locked up for being crazy. In Canada the neighbors call the cops and the lady is locked up for abusing an animal. In Thailand the neighbors ask how many times a day do you have to have sex with the gorilla to keep him happy.

Edited May 8, 2015 by lostoday

[Berkshire]

Which Thailand are you talking about, and or are you on the same planet. Just get it together and see what is happening now in Cambodia, Philippines, Portugal, Malaysia, Spain, Latin America and South America. Maybe you are fed so much crap that you even believe in your own delusions.

Seriously? Some of these places you mention, e.g, Cambodia, PI, Latin America, they all have myriad problems and are way behind Thailand in a number of important areas. Perhaps it is you who is delusional.

[Gecko123]

I think that there are fewer people moving here because of the lower cost of living and because of the bar scene.

The comparative cost of living gap is slowly closing and currency weaknesses are making Thailand less attractive to foreigners who relocate solely to make their money stretch further.

Demographics, better job and educational opportunities, and other socio-economic factors have made the bar scene less attractive to Thai women, which is in turn attracting fewer sex tourists and sexpats.

All in all I consider these welcome developments, and I suspect many Thai people and the government are applauding as well.

[Wadan]

Yes sir maybe I am delusional but very well read. Perhaps this is something you should indulge in . Read more. I cannot understand how you can fathom 26000+ road deaths annually, about 5 murders , homicides or questionable deaths daily. corruption galore, and recently the increasing numbers of policemen with mental problems , mass graves ....if you can spin this in any positive light than fine . I would live in my delusional world any day.

As for the post that says you can become a citizen after 5 years....Really!!!

Tell this to all the farangs here who must make regular and sometimes embarrassing visits to renew visas. If you consider this and others acceptable , then perhaps you either don't know the meaning of delusional or you are gone beyond repair.

[Berkshire]

I think that there are fewer people moving here because of the lower cost of living and because of the bar scene.

The comparative cost of living gap is slowly closing and currency weaknesses are making Thailand less attractive to foreigners who relocate solely to make their money stretch further.

Demographics, better job and educational opportunities, and other socio-economic factors have made the bar scene less attractive to Thai women, which is in turn attracting fewer sex tourists and sexpats.

All in all I consider these welcome developments, and I suspect many Thai people and the government are applauding as well.

Not necessarily fewer people moving here, but different types of people. I agree that economic progress in Thailand has made it less appealing for many young females to enter the bar trade. That seems to be the major complaint from the sexpat community, fewer girls in bars and even fewer young/attractive ones. And the cost of living has gone up, partially due to the weak economies/currencies of western countries. This has changed the demographics of those coming to Thailand, i.e., more farang/farang couples, Asian families, etc. It seems the only ones not happy with this development are low-income sexpats. Guess they'll be heading to Cambodia, the Philippines, Latin America, or some other impoverished region. No loss to Thailand.

[Loptr]

I can't see any westerners relocating to Thailand.

The press has just gotten too bad to feel you are going to a place where your quality of life will improve.

For sure as is said here every day, Thailand has changed dramatically .... and for the worse.

Hoards of Chinese and Russians and plane loads of louts from Europe have destroyed the place. Phuket, a one star island, with overpriced and too often filthy hotels and restaurants, is a Russian satellite and has gone down the dumps. Along with it's openly flaunted Mafia and street thugs is no longer a family destination.

In contrast Mauritius, where I now go, is a fantastic five star island. Genuine friendliness, english speaking relaxed smiling people, six star service like Thailand used to have, stunning beaches, police that will help you and won't shake you down.

Add in corruption from the very top, a residency/visa system (that changes on a whiim) designed to actually keep you out, open faced hostility from locals, no consumer protection, no medical services as we know from home, no police or courts service that will actually, and willingly help you, increasing violence, no property rights, the ever present threat of losing your property, , ...etc...etc...etc.

You would want to be a fool to relocate to Thailand when the rest of the world is at your feet.

I truly feel a sense of loss of what was a world class stunning place to visit/live and sadly having to watch this degeneration over 30 years.

The corrupt class has made a world class mess out of Thailand.

Then please, by all means, stay away from Thailand... It would be much better to stay away if you feel this way... Leave the country for those that have relocated here and do enjoy the lifestyle, the culture, the people, the differences to the west, warts and all...

In case you haven't read the news lately, the western world isn't very pretty anymore either... So pick you poison and roll the dice, life is not a spectator sport...

[Mobi]

It's simply a trade-off:

I've compiled a list of items people may wish to consider in their personal 'trade/off', not in any particular order of importance.

· Climate

· Cost of Living. (Housing, services & utilities, food, clothing, autos (new & used), car hire, taxis, and other transportation etc.)

· Place of abode. (Beach, tourist area, gated village, rural village, town, city etc.)

· Entertainment/bar scene

· Restaurants, resorts

· Places to visit for recreation.

· The presence of 'undesirable' nationalities. (To you).

· Culture (or lack of it - theatres, art galleries, ballet, opera etc)

· Corruption (This works both ways - as you can pay off cops for traffic offences etc.)

· Democratic Institutions (or lack of them)

· Integrity of legal system and foreigner's rights in local courts.

· Availability of younger women to live with/marry older men

· Ease of communication with indigenous population (language etc)

· Infrastructure (Roads, railways, electricity, water supply, sewerage, internet, TV, libraries etc.)

· Food and shopping (availability of western food and other 'western' home consumables, domestic hardware etc.)

· Property ownership

· Racism (Both ways)

· Companionship (Friends)

· Visa availability/restrictions

· Ease of working or running/starting a business.

· Exchange control. (Ease of transferring /repatriating funds abroad)

· Tax regime.

· Financial systems, bank accounts etc.

· Healthcare - proficiency/expertise and cost

· Difficulty /ease of 'getting things done'.

· Integrity in relationships and dealings with the indigenous population, shops, businesses etc.

· Crime

· Safety on the roads and elsewhere. (muggings /robberies etc)

· Freedom of speech.

If I've missed anything, be my guest…

Which items on the above list are crucial to you?

For every foreigner who wishes to make his/her home in Thailand, whenever the 'minuses' outrank the 'plusses' against any of the items on the above list that are important to them, then maybe it's time to move on.

For me personally, the 'minuses' have increased against the 'plusses' in recent years, but have yet to overtake them - but that time may come, one day. (Or, I may die first - see below).

My gut feeling from reading this thread and from my personal observations is that more people are leaving than are coming to live here. This may change as a completely new generation of people, probably wealthier on average than the current residents, will compile their own trade-off lists and decide that they can afford to live happily here. Don't forget that those with plenty of money can leave the country regularly to satisfy those needs which are not met in Thailand.

I suspect that the days of the 'sex-pats', criminals on the run, and the 'cheap Charlie' brigade are numbered as the cost of living increases and there is an irreversible decline in the number of Thai ladies available to fulfil their needs at a price they can afford.

Many will either leave to better (cheaper) climes in Philippines, Central America etc, or will simply die off and not be replaced.

But there again, I predicted that the Tories would win the UK general election… and look what happened to that prediction…..