Visa Europe Exchanges Rates seem MUCH WORSE since Apr/May 2015 WHY?

[gdhm]

My Bank Nationwide Building Society (UK) uses EXACTLY the Published daily declared Rates by Visa Europe (NOT the same as Visa.com) on http://www.visaeurope.com/en/cardholders/exchange_rates.aspx My current account is Flex Plus which imposes NO Visa FEES for ATM cash Withdrawals of Thai Baht (I am only imposed with the Thai ATM fee of ฿180).

I have noticed an apparent large negative change in Visa Europe Rate being declared on the above website . Could it be anything to do with reported talks of a Visa.com buyback of Visa Europe?

I have always checked ex.com mid market rates for many years and reduced their "Real time" exchange rate by 0.375 which gave me a quite close approximation of what the Visa Europe published rate would be the next day (how close depended on what time of day I looked up the xe.com rate). I do not know (nor can I find out) the time of day Visas Europe calculates their rates (BUT ANYWAY my method has been pretty close using ex.com -0.375 most days for last few years

During the last week or so, the gap seems to me to have massively increased needing me to now deduct 1.0% (give or take 0.2%) off the xe.com rate. So great is the worsened Visa Europe rate that the Bangkok Bank Note buying rate for the last 2 weeks week is better than the Visa Rate announced. This occurrence previously was SO RARE it only happened a few time when there had been a massive UP movement during a 24 hour period between GBP>Baht and Visa Europe had not caught up. I feel this cannot be a coincidence.

For interest ONLY I have known for a long time visa.com have always had much better rates than Visa Europe (now the gap is even wider).

I have never found a pattern between the two (so probably not linked in any way). I am guessing they have different end of day when they calculate their rates, different basis etc. BUT NEVER so much better as last few days.

Today as an example as I type 13:40 Thai time here is a screenshot of rates for today and past two weeks.

SOMETHING SEEMS TO HAVE DEFINITELY CHANGED FOR THE WORSE as far as Visa Europe transactions Rates (0% fees) are concerned.

Certainly previous patterns for rates have changed (once was around Oct 2014 which Visa told me over phone, and I believe again very recently.

PLEASE NOTE I am assuming as I have NO true knowledge. I just try to put an intelligent eye and interpretation over the rates and trend/history of Visa Europe declared rates that I record.

Do any of the Finance experts on the Forum have any knowledge or ideas on what may be going on (and why)?

All details supplied E. &.O. E.

[KhunBENQ]

Where do you get these visa.com (Visa Inc) rates?

Todays rates:

Visa Europe:

1.00 THAI BAHT = 0.0194784138 BRITISH POUND
1 BRITISH POUND = 51.3388826353 THAI BAHT

visa.com (Visa Inc):
1 Thai Baht = 0.019408 British Pound -> that makes 51.5251 (rounded)

Visa Inc is slightly better, but not THAT big a difference that you show.

http://www.visaeurope.com/making-payments/exchange-rates

http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp

That todays bank note (cash) rates are indeed (!) better than the credit card ("ATM") rates is likely due to the steep changes of the rates (gains towards the Baht) since about 23 April.

The credit card rates tend to follow with a one day delay (which can be good or bad for you).

GBP/THB 1 month chart:

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=THB&view=1M

Edited May 12, 2015 by KhunBENQ

[CharlieH]

WRONG forum , moved to Banking

[Sandman77]

I never see that any bankrate in thailand is better like visa rate with german visa I got only 0.2 satang lower rate then Oanda is showing years ago it was same!

I don't think to much about this because my bank always refund me the 180 Bhat fees for each wish drawl

[gdhm]

WRONG forum , moved to Banking

Sorry Charlie

[Pib]

As KhunBENQ said, where are you getting those Visa.com rates in your chart's far right right column. I went to the Visa exchange rate page and only checked the 27 Apr rate and it was 48.631 vs the 49.355 you have in the chart. The VisaEurope and Bangkok Bank rates in the chart matched what I got.

Also as mentioned, Visa/Mastercard rates generally only change once every 24 hours and therefore lag forex rates by at least one business day....sometimes more if the forex market is really volatile and Visa/Mastercard don't want to take a chance on setting their rate too high if there's a good chance it might drop significantly and suddenly. Whereas rates given at banks can change numerous times per day since they follow the forex market rates much more real time.

[gdhm]

Where do you get these visa.com (Visa Inc) rates?

Todays rates:

Visa Europe:

1.00 THAI BAHT = 0.0194784138 BRITISH POUND

1 BRITISH POUND = 51.3388826353 THAI BAHT

visa.com (Visa Inc):

1 Thai Baht = 0.019408 British Pound -> that makes 51.5251 (rounded)

Visa Inc is slightly better, but not THAT big a difference that you show.

http://www.visaeurope.com/making-payments/exchange-rates

http://usa.visa.com/personal/card-benefits/travel/exchange-rate-calculator.jsp

That todays bank note (cash) rates are indeed (!) better than the credit card ("ATM") rates is likely due to the steep changes of the rates (gains towards the Baht) since about 23 April.

The credit card rates tend to follow with a one day delay (which can be good or bad for you).

GBP/THB 1 month chart:

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=THB&view=1M

Hi KhunBenQ

Your are correct. STUPID ME!. Seems I did not put such an "intelligent eye" over the Visa Inc. rates. The Visa Europe Website with card in GBP shows both Number of Baht FOR 1GBP by default and also shows how much 1Baht is worth in GBP

The Visa inc. is different although it as for the same card details it then tell you how much 1 Baht is worth in GBP. It does not tell you how much 1 GBP is worth in Thai Baht.

This is where I was stupid (not an excuse but a reason) I assumed totally incorrectly that if I said my card was in Baht and item in GBP theta would show me how much 1GBP is worth in Baht. It does BUT I now see it is not the same as 1GBP divided by 0.019408 and I should have verified whether is was or not.

I apologize for misleading people on the Visa.com rates and confirm that the rest of the Visa.com ONLY rates I quoted are erroneous. I thank you for bringing my mistake to my and others attention. Here below is what I beleive to be correct rates for Visa.com

Please note ALL my other observations are fundamentally correct. My mistake was that I rarely look at Visa.com rates and made an error when I did.

Amended details are here

[loppylugs1]

Just looked at snapshot with Azimo 52.13 for £1....and £1 fee for transfer to K bank takes 2 days. Used Flexcard (not the plus) and do use Metro bank occasionally

[loppylugs1]

duplicate my lines all over the place today

Edited May 12, 2015 by loppylugs1

[loppylugs1]

duplicate

Edited May 12, 2015 by loppylugs1

[gdhm]

As KhunBENQ said, where are you getting those Visa.com rates in your chart's far right right column. I went to the Visa exchange rate page and only checked the 27 Apr rate and it was 48.631 vs the 49.355 you have in the chart. The VisaEurope and Bangkok Bank rates in the chart matched what I got.

Also as mentioned, Visa/Mastercard rates generally only change once every 24 hours and therefore lag forex rates by at least one business day....sometimes more if the forex market is really volatile and Visa/Mastercard don't want to take a chance on setting their rate too high if there's a good chance it might drop significantly and suddenly. Whereas rates given at banks can change numerous times per day since they follow the forex market rates much more real time.

Pib you are correct to agree with KhunBENQ regarding the Visa.com rates

I have never had a Mastercard, so any comments are purely for Visa Europe. I regret my error with Visa.com rates because they were not relevant to my post and maybe will make some doubt the rest of my observations.

I agree with you concerning the lagging affect, but as Thailand is 6 or 7 hours ahead of UK 12+ New York I think the rates calculations may be much closer to 12 hours lag than a whole day. Certainly until 2 weeks ago they seemed to APPROXIMATE with xe.com around very early Thai evening (ALLOWING for a deduction). To be honest I never worked out what time as never seemed consistent . I did notice that more often than not that if the xe.com rate shot up/down consistently during most of the day (morning/afternoon Thai time) then Visa Europe's often followed a similar pattern. However if the rates shot up/down in the evening Thai time, those often did not seem to be reflected in Visa Europe rate for the next day .

Please note I have been monitoring Visa.com, xe.com and Bangkok Bank Notes rates for years on a daily basis. I get used to patterns and am almost immediately aware of changes in trends. I only get a small pension and therefore judging which days to make ATM withdrawals each months can lose and or save me hundreds of baht. I try to watch xe.com trends as in the past Visa Europe quite closely reflects the trend up/down. Last week I made an ATM withdrawal after deciding to wait 2 extra days because the 2 previous days were lower than I expected and I estimated the trend was up. When I did withdraw I felt the Rate although the highest in weeks was poorer than expected Compared to previous times in the past when ze.com rates were similar.

Visa Europe declares rates rates change ONE time a day on Tue, Wed,Thu ,Fri. for Sat, Sun & Mon the same as that published for Saturday is used for all 3 days. These are valid for all transaction PROCESSED on that day/long weekend and Visa Europe says so on their website

I can confirm this because MY Nationwide Building Society website STATES it uses the Visa Europe daily declared rates. When I make an ATM cash withdrawal I ALWAYS look at the rate declared on the Visa Europe website FIRST. I then go to an ATM and draw out cash. 30mins later (or so) I check my online banking. Although full details are not given it clearly shows my account balance has dropped by xxx amount due to a pending transaction. If I divide the the difference between previous balance and lower pending balance it is EXACTLY to the UK PENNY the amount in Baht I took out using the Visa Europe published rate for that exact date.

My Bank ALWAYS processes the ATM withdrawals with Visa Europe immediately the ATM withdrawal is made SO I EXPECT (and I 100% confirm) it always uses the EXACT same rate (NW only shows 3 decimal places on my statement).

I should mention I have a complex Excel spreadsheet where I input all these various rates in the morning daily and have been doing so for many years.

What drew my attention to seeming worse rates very recently is that during the last week or so (allowing for lagging) I expected some days to have higher (much) higher rates the following day and was surprised when xe.com was showing big increases for 24 hours or more but the Visa Europe increase was small. With one date xe. com was higher for over 24 hours throughout but Visa Europe's rate actually dropped the next day.

This was when I felt Visa is now applying a new calculation method which is poorer compared to a few weeks ago. I have always tracked against xe.com and have always allowed for Visa Europe to have lower rates and I also bear in mind lagging especially when large movement is occurring during a 24 hour period.

I am not an expert but I can see trends and changing statistical patterns with the figures I am monitoring and I personally believe something has changed very recently causing the Visa Europe rates to be lower in general to what I think they would have been in the past. I suspect a new and more conservative calculation method has been introduced (or I am getting senile dementia ).

Kind regards to you Pib and all responders to my OP.

[Pib]

The Visa inc. is different although it as for the same card details it then tell you how much 1 Baht is worth in GBP. It does not tell you how much 1 GBP is worth in Thai Baht.

This is where I was stupid (not an excuse but a reason) I assumed totally incorrectly that if I said my card was in Baht and item in GBP theta would show me how much 1GBP is worth in Baht. It does BUT I now see it is not the same as 1GBP divided by 0.019408 and I should have verified whether is was or not.

I've seen others do that before...I even did it before because I wanted to see the exchange rate in the value I'm use to see...that is XX baht per USD/GBP/etc versus seeing the fractional figure which I then need to divide into 1 to get the rate I'm use to see...I was trying to take a shortcut...but I was corrected by another ThaiVisa member to the error of my ways. But the VisaEurope page shows it both ways...the fractional rate and the rate we are use to seeing...no calculator required.

When a person flips the entries on the Visa rate page to just to avoid having to pull out a calculator they are now saying they want to convert Baht to another foreign currency versus a certain foreign currency to baht...in each case a different exchange rate will apply. In your first case you were basically showing a "Selling" rate vs a "Buying" rate....that is it was showing how many baht would be needed to buy one pound instead of how many baht your one pound bought.

But you still appear to have problems with the comparison at least on one date (maybe others as I didn't check). I decided just to check the Bangkok Bank rate for 7 May since you showed a big increase starting at that date...it appears the rate you used in the chart was "not" for Buying because the only place I saw a 51.08 on the Bangkok Bank webpage the 51.08 rate was the "Selling" Rate at 0830...not the "Buying" Rate of 49.90 which is quite a bit lower. The Selling Rate would be higher but you are not "selling baht" you are "buying baht"...it pretty much like the error in using the Visa exchange rate page. You might want to recheck the first column.

[Pib]

dghm,

By chance do know you what time the VisaEurope rate changes? I'm wondering it's the same as the Visa rate used for the rest of the world.

The Visa rates change midnight U.S. Eastern Time (which changes twice a year due to Daylight Savings time implementation)...many times it's referred to as Eastern Standard Time or Eastern Daylight Time. Right now midnight U.S. Eastern Daylight Time when Visa updates it rates it's 11am Thailand time next day since the U.S. is in daylight saving time...but once it changes back later this year midnight U.S. Eastern Standard Time it's high noon Thailand.

So if I did one withdrawal say at 10:59am Thailand time I would get a different exchange rate than if I did another one at 11:01am...and if the forex markets have been volatile over the last day or two the difference in those exchange rates done only 2 minutes apart could be very significant since it was the bewitching hour for the Visa rates to update every 24 hours. Like you, I usually check the Visa exchange rate page before doing a withdrawal especially if the forex markets have been volatile and I'm going to do a large withdrawal.

[gdhm]

The Visa inc. is different although it as for the same card details it then tell you how much 1 Baht is worth in GBP. It does not tell you how much 1 GBP is worth in Thai Baht.

This is where I was stupid (not an excuse but a reason) I assumed totally incorrectly that if I said my card was in Baht and item in GBP theta would show me how much 1GBP is worth in Baht. It does BUT I now see it is not the same as 1GBP divided by 0.019408 and I should have verified whether is was or not.

I've seen others do that before...I even did it before because I wanted to see the exchange rate in the value I'm use to see...that is XX baht per USD/GBP/etc versus seeing the fractional figure which I then need to divide into 1 to get the rate I'm use to see...I was trying to take a shortcut...but I was corrected by another ThaiVisa member to the error of my ways. But the VisaEurope page shows it both ways...the fractional rate and the rate we are use to seeing...no calculator required.

When a person flips the entries on the Visa rate page to just to avoid having to pull out a calculator they are now saying they want to convert Baht to another foreign currency versus a certain foreign currency to baht...in each case a different exchange rate will apply. In your first case you were basically showing a "Selling" rate vs a "Buying" rate....that is it was showing how many baht would be needed to buy one pound instead of how many baht your one pound bought.

But you still appear to have problems with the comparison at least on one date (maybe others as I didn't check). I decided just to check the Bangkok Bank rate for 7 May since you showed a big increase starting at that date...it appears the rate you used in the chart was "not" for Buying because the only place I saw a 51.08 on the Bangkok Bank webpage the 51.08 rate was the "Selling" Rate at 0830...not the "Buying" Rate of 49.90 which is quite a bit lower. The Selling Rate would be higher but you are not "selling baht" you are "buying baht"...it pretty much like the error in using the Visa exchange rate page. You might want to recheck the first column.

Hi Pib you are correct and I appreciate you pointing out the error so I can rectify my Spreadsheet.

In fact you have come across a "regretfully" quite common silly FOR ME) which I sometimes do when there are National holidays and of course BKB does not declare rates and I occasionally lose track of the days and enter a value in the wrong day

In THIS case I forgot to record value for 6 May

On 7th May I put its final update 5 value (50.10) into 6th May

On 8th May I put its 2nd Update (of 51.08) into that of the 7 May.

Late 8 May I rechecked and saw a 3rd update for that day and this time actually put its value correctly for 8 May not realizing I had already messed up 6th and 7th

In summary I did ONLY use Bank Note buying rates but got confused on dates following the National Holidays

I would mention that My BK rates are those I see when I check. BKB has no consistency if or how many updates it does each day. I suspect if the rate is moving fast it then does several on those days. I usually pu the rate in applicable at around 11am. If I am at my PC (and remember much later I will recheck if there has been an update and adjsut if so. each day si not 100% consistent with me for example if I stop using PC early on a day I do not automatically go back and check if any later updates occurred because that column for my information is of secondary importance whereas the Visa Europe Rates are100% important.

I have checked the other BKB Note Buying final rates on my chart and believe them to be correct. Hopefully is the final correct updated version of what I originally intended to post

I now see I am mistaken that BKB rates were better than Visa Europe every day this last week (are for last 3 days though) but my main fear that Visa Europe rate calculation method has become more conservative recently (especially if rates improving fast) remains.

2nd Corrected Version (sorry all)

I actually only use the BKB note buying rates for Visa renewal info as those are the rates my Immigration office usually uses.

I have on the same spreadsheet a few cells that record savings in my Thai savings account AND my UK pensions and another cell multiples the pension the BKB Note buying rate adds the savings and then checks if it is (on "Today's date") over the required ฿800,000 minimum retirement Visa threshold. With daily BKB rates I can see if rates are trending down and whether my threshold is jeopardy at any time.

Essentially my spreadsheet is all singing and all dancing with stats and info on my pensions, effect of UK tax relief, pension he value in Baht (based upon VIsa Europe daily rates (and BKB Note Buying rates).

I ALSO have recorded the lowest and highest GBP >Baht rates for each of the last 7years (extracted from each days values recorded on the spreadsheet.

I can compare today's monthly income value with each of those 7 year's best and worst rates. Does not make good reading this year EXCEPT Today is the best Visa Europe rate of 2015 with 51.3388826353, BUT only as far back as 3 Jul 2014 that had the highest rate since Aug 2009 with a rate of 55.3845655555. It show how much the GBP crashed against the Baht starting around late Jul 2014 and really dropped fast from end Dec 2014 to the lowest Visa Europe rate this year on 14 Apr with only 47.3147276274. Now suddenly it is shooting up again. GO FIGURE!

dghm,

By chance do know you what time the VisaEurope rate changes? I'm wondering it's the same as the Visa rate used for the rest of the world.

The Visa rates change midnight U.S. Eastern Time (which changes twice a year due to Daylight Savings time implementation)...many times it's referred to as Eastern Standard Time or Eastern Daylight Time. Right now midnight U.S. Eastern Daylight Time when Visa updates it rates it's 11am Thailand time next day since the U.S. is in daylight saving time...but once it changes back later this year midnight U.S. Eastern Standard Time it's high noon Thailand.

So if I did one withdrawal say at 10:59am Thailand time I would get a different exchange rate than if I did another one at 11:01am...and if the forex markets have been volatile over the last day or two the difference in those exchange rates done only 2 minutes apart could be very significant since it was the bewitching hour for the Visa rates to update every 24 hours. Like you, I usually check the Visa exchange rate page before doing a withdrawal especially if the forex markets have been volatile and I'm going to do a large withdrawal.

sorry Pib I don't know. I have tried to find out/work out, but cannot find any obvious pattern.

I too wondered if Visa Europe is based on London Forex closing time or New York closing times.

Unfortunately I cannot work it out as there is no complete consistency between Visa.com and Visa Europe rate differences. I felt for a long time maybe Visa Europe was approx 0.5 worse than Visa.com (thinking maybe it pays Visa.com some kind of set percentage for each transaction as a kind of compensation agreement for being allowed to split from Visa.com.

Without knowing the basis of rate calculations or times done for either, there seems to be too many variables to find the info AND neither Visa.com or Visa Europe seem willing to say. Seems to be a closely guarded secret. I have not found one sight by Googling that gives any clues either.

All rates E. & O.E

Now I am really getting tired so please forgive me for any further typos and errors. I have been at PC for almost 12 hours and am feeling a little "Brain dead" (just like normal I suppose LOL)

Regards

[Pib]

gdhm,

Being a big user of speadsheets to track some personal financial matters (I've got some spreadsheets that would water your eyes but they were tweaked over years) I know how easy it is to enter one incorrect value or formula in one field which in turn can mess-up a bunch of other fields in a person's spreadsheet.

Your revision shows what I've posted many times that the Visa rate is plus or minus a few stang the Thai bank TT Buying Rate....and if you have a no foreign transaction fee debt card that also reimburses local ATM fees then using that debit card works out great....immediately money in hand vs waiting for a wire transfer to hit arrive you bank account...and of course the Thai bank is going to apply their approx 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) receiving fee which effectively lowers their exchange rate. Now the Thai bank TT Buying Rate is different and will be a little higher than the Notes Buying Rate used in your spreadsheet but it stills helps to prove my point.

Personally, I would use the TT Buying Rate used for incoming wire transfers vs the Notes Buying Rate for comparison with Visa/Mastercard Rates since it would be more of an apples to apples comparison since both are based a form of "electronic" transfer whereas a Notes to TT transfer comparison is kinda different since one is based on hard cash and the other electronic transfer. But if you are a person who carries over a much of cash in their money belt and wanted to know how that would compare with using their no foreign transaction fee card to exchange/get money then it's the comparison you want to see.

Speaking of "brain dead" I feel that way too right now too since I'm tired and had a couple of Chang beers (Chang has killed more of my rapidly dwindling brain cells tonight...it will kill more tomorrow night).

Cheers,

Pib

[loppylugs1]

NY closing times,fx s usually finish at 5am Thai time. I never change money Friday late,or early Monday mornings

[JimGant]

NY closing times,fx s usually finish at 5am Thai time. I never change money Friday late,or early Monday mornings

Interesting. I just pulled up Visa USA at 7:54PM, 12 May US East Coast Daylight Savings time (6:54AM, 13 May Thai time), and it had already rolled to 13 May, Historically, as Pib has pointed out (and which I have also historically observed), it shouldn't have rolled until 4 hours, 6 minutes later. But, has this changed, akin to the above quote? Or, do the Visa established daily FX rates flex during unusually volatile FX activitity...? (Visa EU had also rolled to 13 May). Just when exactly did these Visa FX daily rates roll?

Not that it has any real practical application, at least for me -- my ATM pulls will still be in the afternoon, after I wake up. But, per Loppy, I'm curious enough to soon log on to Visa at 5AM Thai time to see whether the daily rates have rolled on the Visa USA (and EU) sites.

And, while Visa had rolled to 13 May, MasterCard was still on 11 May. They historically have lagged about 12 hours behind Visa -- has this lag even further increased?

Edited May 13, 2015 by JimGant

[Pib]

NY closing times,fx s usually finish at 5am Thai time. I never change money Friday late,or early Monday mornings

I think you are talking when some foxex markets close trading as 5am Thailand time right now is 6pm Eastern Daylight Time previous day. But Visa does it's rate change at midnight.

And just because say a currency pair rate increased by say 0.5% at the close of FX trading (if it ever really closes) does not mean Visa/Mastercard will increase their rates by 0.5% on their next daily rate change....they are other factors also they consider...if they think that 0.5% increase (or decrease) was a brief spike/dip which will probably go back to normal the next day you may see very little rate change.

Last year when I watched pretty close for a few months how Visa/Mastercard rates changed in comparison to FX market rates there was always 1 to 3 business day lag...and in those cases where the lag took around 3 days it was usually those times when the FX markets had made some major up or downs which Visa/Mastercard may have thought were very temporary but a few days later that up or down trend was still there so Visa/Mastercard finally made a exchange rate change more closely following the FX markets. But usually the lag is 1 or 2 business days.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Pib

[puck2]

......

Interesting. I just pulled up Visa USA at 7:54PM, 12 May US East Coast Daylight Savings time (6:54AM, 13 May Thai time), and it had already rolled to 13 May, Historically, as Pib has pointed out (and which I have also historically observed), it shouldn't have rolled until 4 hours, 6 minutes later. But, has this changed, akin to the above quote? Or, do the Visa established daily FX rates flex during unusually volatile FX activitity...? (Visa EU had also rolled to 13 May). Just when exactly did these Visa FX daily rates roll?

......

Are you sure that VISA showed you the new rates (13 May) and NOT the (old) rates from 12 May? Please check it again.

[loppylugs1]

NY closing times,fx s usually finish at 5am Thai time. I never change money Friday late,or early Monday mornings

Interesting. I just pulled up Visa USA at 7:54PM, 12 May US East Coast Daylight Savings time (6:54AM, 13 May Thai time), and it had already rolled to 13 May, Historically, as Pib has pointed out (and which I have also historically observed), it shouldn't have rolled until 4 hours, 6 minutes later. But, has this changed, akin to the above quote? Or, do the Visa established daily FX rates flex during unusually volatile FX activitity...? (Visa EU had also rolled to 13 May). Just when exactly did these Visa FX daily rates roll?

Not that it has any real practical application, at least for me -- my ATM pulls will still be in the afternoon, after I wake up. But, per Loppy, I'm curious enough to soon log on to Visa at 5AM Thai time to see whether the daily rates have rolled on the Visa USA (and EU) sites.

And, while Visa had rolled to 13 May, MasterCard was still on 11 May. They historically have lagged about 12 hours behind Visa -- has this lag even further increased?

Did notice a slightly later fx fix last couple of weeks,but usually 5 am Sat morn.

Just looked at rates obtainable from Nationwide card 51.67, Azimo 51.99, but that flex plus card I think costs £10 a month does it not,still for a £1 per transaction Ill stick with Azimo. May look at flex plus card next time in UK

[Liquorice]

I just did a transfer Nationwide UK to BKK at tonight's close of market in Thailand. 52.325 baht =£1.

That will transfer overnight so I'm guaranteed that rate. I'm happy with that.

£15 transfer fee and 200 baht exchange fee.

[JimGant]

Are you sure that VISA showed you the new rates (13 May) and NOT the (old) rates from 12 May? Please check it again.

Yep. At 7:54 PM New York time, on 12 May, Visa USA had already posted their 13 May rate, which is .029688/33.684 baht for the USD. This was immediately apparent, as the latest date shows up in the .date window when the site loads. Whether this is an anomaly, or not, remains to be seen.

[Pib]

I think I've seen that happen a "few" times also versus them waiting for the stroke of midnight to load the next day's rates.

But it would be nice if they loaded them a little earlier before the actual rate changes so a person could see whether it was best to take advantage of today's rates or wait a little until the next day's rate kicks in at a rate you already know.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Pib

[gdhm]

NY closing times,fx s usually finish at 5am Thai time. I never change money Friday late,or early Monday mornings

Interesting. I just pulled up Visa USA at 7:54PM, 12 May US East Coast Daylight Savings time (6:54AM, 13 May Thai time), and it had already rolled to 13 May, Historically, as Pib has pointed out (and which I have also historically observed), it shouldn't have rolled until 4 hours, 6 minutes later. But, has this changed, akin to the above quote? Or, do the Visa established daily FX rates flex during unusually volatile FX activitity...? (Visa EU had also rolled to 13 May). Just when exactly did these Visa FX daily rates roll?

Not that it has any real practical application, at least for me -- my ATM pulls will still be in the afternoon, after I wake up. But, per Loppy, I'm curious enough to soon log on to Visa at 5AM Thai time to see whether the daily rates have rolled on the Visa USA (and EU) sites.

And, while Visa had rolled to 13 May, MasterCard was still on 11 May. They historically have lagged about 12 hours behind Visa -- has this lag even further increased?

Did notice a slightly later fx fix last couple of weeks,but usually 5 am Sat morn.

Just looked at rates obtainable from Nationwide card 51.67, Azimo 51.99, but that flex plus card I think costs £10 a month does it not,still for a £1 per transaction Ill stick with Azimo. May look at flex plus card next time in UK

Regarding "Just looked at rates obtainable from Nationwide card 51.67, Azimo 51.99, but that flex plus card I think costs £10 a month does it not,still for a £1 per transaction Ill stick with Azimo. May look at flex plus card next time in UK"

Nationwide Flex Plus Account (UK) provides a VISA DEBIT Card which uses Visa Europe Exchange Rates

2) Interest is credited to your account on the last day of each month also for money in account daily during the month.

3) FOR Foreign currency CASH withdrawals (e.g.ATMs)There are NO further charges. There is No non-sterling transaction fee & there is No £1 fixed fee per transaction. (non-sterling purchases incur a 2% non-sterling transaction fee)

4) Nationwide uses the Visa Europe website declared rates with 0% fees for transactions processed on the date concerned EXACTLY. I have ALWAYS found that the ATM w/d is processed immediately.

see url http://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/travel/fees-charges for details of FlexPlus Current Account.

De-Select one of the three default ticked accounts and select Flexplus.

eg. FlexAccount Debit Card, FlexPlus Debit Card, Nationwide Credit Card

Now you can directly compare the effect of using each card & account under the 3 tab headings

I switched from FlexAccount to FlexPlus because the currency conversion fee (non sterling transaction fee) and the £1 fixed cash transaction fee cost me 3 times more with my Flex account per annum than the £10 monthly fixed fee (reduced by interest paid on balance -be it small) does.

Example:

Thai Bangkok Bank ATMs allow 25 notes to be withdrawn at each withdrawal (subject to Nationwide's maximum daily allowance £500). So Today (13/05/15) I could withdraw ฿25,000. I would be charged ฿180 ATM fixed fee by BKB

What I would see on the Visa Europe website for today's date (13/05/15) is the Exchange Rate that will be used by Nationwide for an ATM withdrawal in Thailand Today (฿52.1569419909 to £1).

If I had withdrawn ฿25,000 from a BKB ATM today (BKB allows a maximum of 25 bank notes at one time)

My Flexplus Account would have been debited for ฿25,180 (฿25,000 W/D + ฿180 (Thai ATM Fixed Fee) with Today's (13/05/15) Visa Europe Rate of ฿52.1569419909 to £1.

Debit to Flex Account would be £482.77. No other charge for this transaction will be made to my account. (I have used FlexPlus for all my ATM cash withdrawals since April 2013).

Hope this is informative and helpful

Kind Regards

[fgmr]

gdhm,

I got the same rate as stated by you when I drew cash at Bangkok Bank atm on 8th May. The UK bank on this occasion was RBS, I presume all UK banks are using Visa Europe. Though my statements never state this, Your info has been most revealing. Thanks

[loppylugs1]

I just did a transfer Nationwide UK to BKK at tonight's close of market in Thailand. 52.325 baht =£1.

That will transfer overnight so I'm guaranteed that rate. I'm happy with that.

£15 transfer fee and 200 baht exchange fee.

Azimo's spread looks as though its 0.7,with a £1 transfer fee and no exchange fee,2 day timing.Their rates look better too at time of transaction

That card of yours is another £10 a month too. Why not take your passport into Thai bank and save 180 baht fee?

[KhunBENQ]

Why not take your passport into Thai bank and save 180 baht fee?

An ATM transaction and an over the counter cash advance are two different things.

The over the counter transaction will be penalized by the card organization with a hefty interest.

Late disappointment on the bill.

Would be naive/needless to penalize a self service transaction over a labor intensive manual transaction.

Edited May 14, 2015 by KhunBENQ

[Pib]

Why not take your passport into Thai bank and save 180 baht fee?

An ATM transaction and an over the counter cash advance are two different things.

The over the counter transaction will be penalized by the card organization with a hefty interest.

Late disappointment on the bill.

Would be naive/needless to penalize a self service transaction over a labor intensive manual transaction.

If the person pays the credit card counter cash advance same day, or maybe even prepays/preloads, there would be no interest charge. That's what I do. But a person also needs to look to see if his credit card applies a cash advance fee (not to be confused with foreign transaction fee)....cash advance fees on credit cards are typically 3%. Fortunately the credit card I use has no foreign transaction fee nor a cash advance fee. If a debit card there is no cash advance fee like on a credit card but there could be a foreign transaction fee. A person just needs to know the fees associated with their debit and credit cards and can hopefully get one with no fees.

And don't be surprised if the bank does not do a counter withdrawal for a "debit" card; some do...some don't....they just point you to their ATM. But all should do it for a credit card.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Pib

[JimGant]

At 5:50PM New York time, 20 May, the Visa FX site was still reporting their 20 May FX rates. But, at 6:10PM New York time, the Visa FX site was reporting 21 May FX rates. This is six hours earlier than when they have historically switched over to their new daily FX rate.

So what? I dunno. Maybe when the dollar is galloping, Visa profits from being closer to real time (vs. being 24 hours behind time) in capturing FX rates. Certainly their huge presence demands an FX play in their game. But, as far as what the FX rate is for us consumer peons, it would seem to matter not to Visa -- Visa gets a percentage (normally 1%) of what we're charged. But, day to day iterations of this constantly changing FX rate, when it involves percentages, doesn't seem to matter much. Certainly, if it did, Visa would have a much more fluid FX rate than their once per 24-hour rate.

So, today, compared to a few weeks ago, had you swiped your US Visa ATM card in a Thai ATM machine in the AM, you would have gotten the 21 May rate of 33.464. But a few weeks ago, it would have only been the 20 May rate of 33.323 -- since Visa didn't change its rates until noon Thai time. Of course, if the dollar was drifting lower, you would have been better off .....blah blah blah.

I don't know what this all means -- only that it's a curiosity that Visa has (maybe temporarily, during high dollar velocity activity) changed its daily FX crossover. Even more curious is that, as I type this (7:01PM New York time) the MasterCard posted rate is still showing 18 May -- 33.23 baht/$.

Yawn.

[Pib]

Jim,

I expect when Visa starts displaying an exchange rate for a date does not necessarily mean that is the moment exchange rates also change for transaction, especially if Visa is just posting them earlier for customer FYI. Before their exchange rates for the next date appeared at midnight U.S. Eastern Time...but now it look like they are posting them well before midnight like 6pm ET...6 hours earlier than before.

What is the important date/time is the "Visa settlement" date which may be different than the transaction date. Below is a quote from a SoctiaBank, Canada document which I think sums it up pretty well.

For a transaction with the card, the exchange rate is determined by VISA Inc. on our behalf on the date that the transaction is settled with VISA Inc. This exchange rate may be different from the exchange rate in effect on the transaction date.

Now credit card transactions take a day or more to settle, but debit card transactions settle almost immediately. So if a person uses his debit card in a location a half a world/12 time zones away....say it's 5am Tuesday morning in Thailand and which is 5pm Monday afternoon on the U.S. East Coast (when not on daylight savings time) and a person uses his debit card at a Thai bank ATM, which day's exchange rate does he get...the Tuesday or Monday exchange rate? When the transaction settles almost immediately at a person's card issuing bank who say is on the U.S. ET also like Schwab Bank which day's exchange rate will be used? Monday's or Tuesday's. Well, by looking at some wording from the Visa Exchange website and partial quoted below it may be the date/time the "card issuing bank" is located in. Then again, with Visa being the middle man between the card-issuing bank and the bank somewhere in the world handling out money via ATM/counter withdrawal...and notice the quote also talks about a "central processing date" because it's Visa that determines what the issuing bank and acquiring bank will use to settle their books....can't use two different days of exchange rate...gotta agree on just one day even if the acquiring and issuing banks are a half a world apart on different dates. I expect Mastercard has a similar rule...central processing date/time also but I don't use any Mastercard debit cards; only Visa debit cards.

The Visa rate is selected from a range of rates available in wholesale currency markets or the government-mandated rate in effect one day prior to the applicable central processing date. Visa makes this rate available to issuing banks, which may adjust the rate when billing cardholders by applying a foreign transaction fee.

I haven't got a chance yet but I'm going to try to do a test soon where I assume the exchange rates are referenced to midnight U.S. ET regardless of when Visa might start displaying the rates, do an ATM withdrawal a couple minutes before midnight and then do another withdrawal after midnight...which right now referenced to Thailand would be before and after 11am in the morning. It's about time I did my approx monthly ATM pull from my two banks (Schwab and St Farm on ET) and see what happens/see what rates I get. I think most of the time most of us are pulling money after 11am in the day when the US and Thailand are then on the same day. It's more of a satisfy my curiosity more than anything else.

And for anyone listing in with Visa cards issued by European banks what time zone they use for the "settlement" date....a central processing time...time of the card issuing bank....or time of the transaction somewhere in the world....I don't have a clue since the VisaEurope site has a different exchange rate calculator & rates from the Visa Global site.

Like already said, it's more of a curiosity thing but once we can nail down the time used and since Visa is now posting it rates around 6 hours before the next day arrives the U.S., well, if a person sees rates are going to drop significantly (say 0.5%) for the next day he might just want to run to an ATM and pull money today to get the better exchange rate especially if pulling a large amount like maybe Bt30K which would drive around a Bt150/$5 difference in the charge hitting your account. But since credit card transactions take a day or two or more to settle worrying about exchange rates say for a $5000 equivalent purchase or even cash counter withdrawal shouldn't be worried about because you don't know what the exchange rate will be in a day, two, or more.

Cheers,

Pib

P.S. I called Visa a few nights ago to ask when does their exchange rate change? What time zone is it referenced to? All the rep would do is read from a script which sounded very similar to what is on their website....and they said I would need to call my card-issuing bank or company for more info. I asked him like three times by rephrasing the question a little and talking time zone difference between Thailand and the U.S. and he would still just continue to read from script. Yeap, the rep would only read from a script on his screen....I was not going to get the 64 thousand dollar question answered by that rep....I expect with different time zones, different cutoff/posting times used by banks, and just a whole variety of factors involved in settling transactions that would hurt a person's head trying to understand they just refer such questions to the card issuing bank who may or may not be able to give you the right answer based on some of my interactions with bank CSRs over the years.