New Limits On Tourist Visas--when Does 90 Day Count Begin?

[heybruce]

Do those of us who have already been in Thailand making visa runs for more than 90 days have to be out of the country by October 1, or can we do visa runs for up to 90 days after that date?

Please do not reply with rants about the ethics of staying long term on tourist visas or the logic of the new regulations. I am not working or doing anything illegal in Thailand. I assume that I meet Thailand's current legal definition of a tourist since I never had a problem getting the passport stamp. However the rules will change soon and I need to determine how much time I have to get a different visa or leave the country. I'm sure there are many other people in my situation.

[sriracha john]

do we really need another thread on the subject??

[Braccobaldo]

I would like an answer to the question of heybruce.

I'm in your same "position"

[Firefan]

Nobody knows the answer to that yet. Wait for more news. Don't panic. Cheers!

[Sunbelt Asia]

Do those of us who have already been in Thailand making visa runs for more than 90 days have to be out of the country by October 1, or can we do visa runs for up to 90 days after that date?

Our understanding it starts Oct 1st and the number of consecutive entries are counted. Its more than 3 entries than you need a 90 day waiting period before reentering Thailand.

Example. You have a 30 day stamp on July 9th, August 7th, Sept 5th and now you must leave October 4th. You will not be able to re enter Thailand without a visa or wait 90 days before coming back.

The cycle than can repeat itself.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[geoffphuket]

Do those of us who have already been in Thailand making visa runs for more than 90 days have to be out of the country by October 1, or can we do visa runs for up to 90 days after that date?

Our understanding it starts Oct 1st and the number of consecutive entries are counted. Its more than 3 entries than you need a 90 day waiting period before reentering Thailand.

Example. You have a 30 day stamp on July 10th,July 9th, August 7th and now you must leave October 5th. You will not be able to reenter Thailand without a visa or wait 90 days before coming back.

The cycle than can repeat itself.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

So those with three back to back 30 day stamps in their passport presumably won’t be allowed to exit the country at Ranong, because it won’t be possible for them to re-enter from Myanmar an hour later

[Nam Kao]

What a disaster

[heybruce]

Do those of us who have already been in Thailand making visa runs for more than 90 days have to be out of the country by October 1, or can we do visa runs for up to 90 days after that date?

Our understanding it starts Oct 1st and the number of consecutive entries are counted. Its more than 3 entries than you need a 90 day waiting period before reentering Thailand.

Example. You have a 30 day stamp on July 9th, August 7th, Sept 5th and now you must leave October 4th. You will not be able to re enter Thailand without a visa or wait 90 days before coming back.

The cycle than can repeat itself.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

That seems logical. I have to make my next visa run in late September, which would mean I could then stay in Thailand until late October to sort this out. I think it is time to look for a well recommended Thai lawyer. Thanks for the information.

[britmaveric]

What a disaster

Optimistic lad aren't you?

[faxx]

The rules seem pretty clear for those of us who do back to back border runs.

I usually do visa runs for a week, i.e. stay in Thailand for 25 to 30 days and then head to another Asian country for a week before I return to Bangkok. Would I also need to worry about the new rules or is it okay for me as I do 'extended' visa runs?

[Philomena]

Nope, faxx, you're screwed too :-) If you read the notice properly it's anyone who does visa runs (ie: doesn't have a work permit). They will only be allowed 90 days in Thailand during any period and once that 90 days is up, you'll have to leave the country for 90 days.

I've heard Malaysia is good not only for living but also working - I'm looking at Malaysia, Mexico and a couple of other places right now. A friend left Thailand a few months ago and went to Mexico and he seems to be enjoying himself there!

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Nope, faxx, you're screwed too :-) If you read the notice properly it's anyone who does visa runs (ie: doesn't have a work permit). They will only be allowed 90 days in Thailand during any period and once that 90 days is up, you'll have to leave the country for 90 days.

I've heard Malaysia is good not only for living but also working - I'm looking at Malaysia, Mexico and a couple of other places right now. A friend left Thailand a few months ago and went to Mexico and he seems to be enjoying himself there!

so much conflicting information.

So what if you get a multi entry tourist visa with extensions that allows you to be in thailand of for 6 to 9 months. Since they are not VOA's then does any of that time in Thailand prevent you from re entering at a given time?

I am reading the announcement as this just applies to VOA's. Am I missing something?

[yankeechief]

Yeah I am in the same boat! I have not been working & I do not qualify for a retirement visa (only because of the exchange rate). I came here as a holding area, while I was waiting for a job OUTSIDE of Thailand. I have been doing this visa run thing for a year.

[lopburi3]

Yeah I am in the same boat! I have not been working & I do not qualify for a retirement visa (only because of the exchange rate). I came here as a holding area, while I was waiting for a job OUTSIDE of Thailand. I have been doing this visa run thing for a year.

The exchange rate? You are aware that you can use/combine bank deposit as well as income to meet the 800k requirement for retirement extension of stay?

[Sunbelt Asia]

So what if you get a multi entry tourist visa with extensions that allows you to be in thailand of for 6 to 9 months. Since they are not VOA's then does any of that time in Thailand prevent you from re entering at a given time?

At this time, it is only VOA's that the crackdown is after.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[rak sa_ngop]

Do those of us who have already been in Thailand making visa runs for more than 90 days have to be out of the country by October 1, or can we do visa runs for up to 90 days after that date?

Our understanding it starts Oct 1st and the number of consecutive entries are counted. Its more than 3 entries than you need a 90 day waiting period before reentering Thailand.

Example. You have a 30 day stamp on July 9th, August 7th, Sept 5th and now you must leave October 4th. You will not be able to re enter Thailand without a visa or wait 90 days before coming back.

The cycle than can repeat itself.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

The question is of course how you define a "consecutive entry":

Using the above example if you depart Thailand on Aug 6th for 7 days and have a new 30 day stamp from your rentry on 13 th Aug have you interrupted the sequence, and start counting 3 consecutive entries from fresh again?

Now what if you depart for 7 days and return before the original expiry date eg depart 16th July and return 23rd July. It could be argued that in this case that the sequence has not been interrupted because you will still be making 3 entries within 90 days.

Of course if you extend the above arguments you could argue that maybe once you have visited Thailand for 3 x 30 days entries with 89 day gaps between visits you will always have to wait 90 days before being able to reenter on a 30 day VOA for your fourth visit

Or maybe conversely if you leave for Thailand for just 1 day you can interrupt the sequence??

Hopefully the situation will be clarified before too many people become stranded at immigration posts with only their beer money on them!!!

[sinkorswim]

sorry to Hijack but can someone tell me the answer to this question?

I am on my second Non B multiple entry visa, however I do not have a work permit as I am not working yet I have been looking for businesses to buy. When I do my visa run every 3 months is that ok if I do not have a work permit?

Any replies will be appreciated.

[PREM-R]

There seems to be some confusion with this story. The Bangkok Post story does not give any date for the implementation of this new 'Rule" which it states applies to VOA (visa on arrival). What many farrang get when they cross the border is a Tourist Visa Exemption which allows them to stay in Thailand for 30 days.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs Website

TOURIST VISA EXEMPTION

- According to the Interior Ministerial Announcements dated 1 October B.E. 2545 (2002), 20 December B.E. 2545 (2002) ,18 October B.E. 2547 (2004) and 6 May B.E. 2548 (2005) , passport holders from 40 countries and Hong Kong SAR do not require a visa when entering Thailand for tourism purposes and will be permitted to stay in the Kingdom for 30 days.

- Please note that Tourist Visa Exemption does not apply to foreigners holding Travel Document for Aliens issued by these 40 countries.

- Foreigners entering Thailand under Tourist Visa Exemption must possess means of living expenses at the amount of 10,000 Baht per person and 20,000 Baht per family accordingly.

1. Australia : Commonwealth of Australia

2. Austria : Republic of Austria

3. Belgium : Kingdom of Belgium

4. Brazil : Federative Republic of Brazil (****)

5. Bahrain : State of Bahrain

6. Brunei Darussalam : Negara Brunei Darussalam

7. Canada

8. Denmark : Kingdom of Denmark

9. Finland : Republic of Finland

10. France : French Republic

11. Germany : Federal Republic of Germany

12. Greece : Hellenic Republic

13. Hong Kong : Hong Kong Special Administrative Region

14. Iceland : Republic of Iceland

15. Indonesia : Republic of Indonesia

16. Ireland : Republic of Ireland

17. Israel : State of Israel

18. Italy : Republic of Italy

19. Japan

20. Korea : Republic of Korea (****)

21. Kuwait : State of Kuwait

22. Luxembourg : Grand Duchy of Luxembourg

23. Malaysia

24. Netherlands : Kingdom of the Netherlands

25. New Zealand

26. Norway : Kingdom of Norway

27. Oman : Sultanate of Oman

28. Peru : Republic of Peru (****)

29. Philippines : Republic of the Philippines

30. Portugal : Republic of Portugal

31. Qatar : State of Qatar

32. Singapore : Republic of Singapore

33. Spain : Kingdom of Spain

34. South Africa : Republic of South Africa

35. Sweden : Kingdom of Sweden

36. Switzerland : Swiss Confederation

37. Turkey : Republic of Turkey

38. United Arab Emirates

39. United Kingdom : United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

40. United States of America

41. Vietnam : Socialist Republic of Vietnam

Visa on Arrival (VOA) is different

Ministry of Foreign Affairs Website

VISA ON ARRIVAL

- According to the Interior Ministerial Announcements, passport holders from 20 countries may apply for visas at the immigration checkpoints for the purpose of tourism for the period of not exceeding 15 days.

- The applicant must possess means of living expenses at the amount of 10,000 Baht per person and 20,000 Baht per family accordingly.

- The applicant must present full paid ticket which is usable within 15 days since the date of entry

- Visa on arrival is provided at 23 designated international checkpoints and applicants should submit the application form duly filled out and to which his/her recent photograph (2 ½ inches) is attached. The application fee is 1,000 Baht.

- Visitors who enter the Kingdom with Visa on Arrival generally cannot file an application for extension of stay except in special cases such as illness which prevents them from travelling, etc. They can submit an application at the Office of Immigration Bureau , Immigration Division 1, Soi Suan Plu, South Sathorn Road, Bangkok 10120. Tel. 02 287-3127 or 02 287-3101-10 ext. 2264-5 or at website http://www.immigration.go.th

List of 20 countries is as follows :

1. Bhutan : Kingdom of Bhutan

2. China : People’s Republic of China (including Taiwan)

3. Cyprus : Republic of Cyprus

4. Czech : Czech Republic

5. Estonia : Republic of Estonia

6. Hungary : Republic of Hungary

7. India : Republic of India

8. Kazakhstan : Republic of Kazakhstan

9. Latvia : Republic of Latvia

10. Liechtenstein : Principality of Liechtenstein

11. Lithuania : Republic of Lithuania

12. Maldives : Republic of Maldives

13. Mauritius : Republic of Mauritius

14. Oman : Sultanate of Oman

15. Poland : Republic of Poland

16. Russian Federation

17. Saudi Arabia : Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

18. Slovakia : Slovak Republic

19. Slovenia : Republic of Slovenia

20. Ukraine

List of Thailand’s Immigration Checkpoints which provides facilities for issuance of visa on arrival are as follow :

1. Don Muang International Airport , Bangkok

2. Chiangmai International Airport , Chiangmai

3. Phuket International Airport , Phuket

4. Hatyai International Airport , Songkla

5. U Tapao Airport , Rayong

6. Mae Sai Immigration Checkpoint , Chiengrai

7. Chieng Saen Immigration Checkpoint , Chiengrai

8. Chieng Khong Immigration Checkpoint , Chiengrai

9. Betong Immigration Checkpoint , Yala

10. Sadoa Immigration Checkpoint , Songkla

11. Samui Airport , Surat Thani

12. Sukhothai International Airport, Tak Immigration Checkpoint

13. Bangkok Harbour Immigration Checkpoint, Bangkok

14. Sri Racha Immigration Checkpoint , Chonburi

15. Mabtaput Immigration Checkpoint , Rayong

16. Nong Khai Immigration Checkpoint, Nong Khai

17. Samui Immigration Checkpoint , Surat Thani

18. Phuket Immigration Checkpoint , Phuket

19. Satun Immigration Checkpoint , Satun

20. Krabi Immigration Checkpoint , Krabi

21. Songkhla Harbour Immigraion Checkpoint , Songkhla

22. Chiangrai Airport Immigration Checkpoint, Chiangrai

23. Surat Thani Airport Immigration Checkpoint , Surat Thani

[Visaman]

Example. You have a 30 day stamp on July 9th, August 7th, Sept 5th and now you must leave October 4th. You will not be able to re enter Thailand without a visa or wait 90 days before coming back.

The cycle than can repeat itself.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Your example is incorrect, it doesn't make any sense.

[andyc2006]

Nope, faxx, you're screwed too :-) If you read the notice properly it's anyone who does visa runs (ie: doesn't have a work permit). They will only be allowed 90 days in Thailand during any period and once that 90 days is up, you'll have to leave the country for 90 days.

that doesn't make sense when you think about it...

first, define a visa run... how long does a person have to leave before it's not a visa run? 1 day, 1 week, 1 month? make it 1 month and you'll prevent real tourists from re-entering. make it 1 week and people can still game the system -- spending 8 of every 9 weeks in thailand -- and indefinitely live and work in thailand on a tourist visa, no different than before, except that 11% of their life will be in cambodia, laos or malaysia.

2nd, "only allwed 90 days ... during ANY period?" so, in a 1 year period, 90 days in forces you out for 90? they're going to force out REAL tourists.

on thailand friends website, i posted a way to game the system if they base the new rule on preventing "visa runs," and also explained that if they define a visa run as anything longer than 1 week, they'll get rid of real money-spending tourists (and anything 1 week or less can still be easily gamed).

the solution to their perceived problem is to measure the number of days in thailand, but if you say 90 days in ANY period, that doesn't work either... they need something like "only up to 90 days of any 180 consecutive days" to avoid weeding out the real tourists.

here's the thai friends post:

i'd love to see the text of the new rules, to see exactly how they

intend to enforce this. the concept is easy to understand, but the

language wouldn't be easy to contrive without either having serious

non-intended consequences or making the new rules meaningless.

how long do you need to leave thailand after your first 30-day visit

before you're issue a new VOA (so that the clock re-starts for you)

vs. being issued a "renewal" for the existing VOA?

are they saying if you re-enter on the same day, that's just an

extension of your previous 30-day visa? ok, fine, people will just do

over-nights in cambodia for their visa runs... now thailand is just

forcing them to make longer visa runs and spend more outside of

thailand, but it hasn't stopped them from living and working in

thailand on tourist visas.

but if they extend the "must-go" period too long, they'll basically be

preventing many legit tourists who come here 4 or 5 times/year from

overseas...

hmm... maybe i'm not being clear... an example:

jan 1-30 thailand. jan 30: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

jan 30-march 2: thailand. march 2: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

march 2- april 1: thailand.

april 1: can't return from this visa run for 90 days. no more thailand.

that's obvious. so what's this visa-runners obvious solution?

jan 1-30 thailand. jan 30: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

jan 30-march 2 thailand. march 2: visa run, overnight in cambodia.

march 3: new VOA in thailand. clock starts over.

march 3-april 2: thailand. april 2: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

april 2-may 1: thailand. may 1: visa run, overnight in cambodia.

may 2: new VOA in thailand. clock starts over.

the thai govt needs to define how long a person must leave after 30

days before his/her returns constitutes a new VOA or a renewal of the

previous one.

well, even if they say 1 week, that just means the visa-runners now

need to spend 1 week outside thailand for every 8 weeks they spend in

thailand. so they'll do it, and that's just 1 week of spending

thailand has forced them to give to cambodia/laos/singapore/malaysia

instead of thailand.

if thailand really wants to fix what they see as a problem, they need

to copy the way many western countries do it... an example would be a

policy that states "of every 180 days, a non-thai citizen can spend 91

days in thailand on a tourist visa." of course, then, they need to

have a good database to track that, because if immigration officers

have to figure it out at the airport by looking at a passport,

entering thailand will become a nightmare, and if they rely on

physical passports for the info, you'll find lots of foreigners

"losing" their passports every 3 months, and having new, clean,

unstamped passports when they enter thailand.

it sounds like they're defining it in a way that will just make it

harder for visa-runners to restart the "visa clock," but not

impossible for them to live and work in thailand on tourist visas,

considering they'll still be able to spend 59 of 60 days in thailand

(if they only need to leave 1 day to restart the VOA), or 8 of 9 weeks

in thailand (if they need to leave 1 full week).

if thailand does something crazy like saying you need to leave for 1

full month to restart the clock and get a new VOA, well, then they'll

lose lots of REAL tourists.

for example, i know one friend in 2005 who made visits to thailand in

january, february, and march. those visits would have prevented the

visits that he made in april and june.

then again in 2005, he made visits in august, october and november

that would've prevented his january (06) visit.

between each visit he flew all the way back to the USA, where he

works. in thailand, he didn't work and he spent (lots, mostly on

hotels though). he's exactly what the thai govt dreams of in a

tourist.... so they better think twice about how long of a requirement

they set for being gone to constitute a brand new VOA as opposed to a

"renewal."

[meadish_sweetball]

Example. You have a 30 day stamp on July 9th, August 7th, Sept 5th and now you must leave October 4th. You will not be able to re enter Thailand without a visa or wait 90 days before coming back.

The cycle than can repeat itself.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Your example is incorrect, it doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense. 3 consecutive entries into Thailand, each time you get a stamp allowing you to stay 30 days. After this, you EITHER need to leave for 90 days in order to get another 30 day stamp OR, if you want to avoid that, you need to apply for and obtain a visa from a Thai embassy or consulate abroad. When you have a proper visa in your passport, you will be allowed to enter.

If it still isn't clear, please explain in what way.

[Visaman]

If it still isn't clear, please explain in what way.

Sunbelt's example is too scary. The worst scenario, they will start to count from Oct 1.

[andyc2006]

Example. You have a 30 day stamp on July 9th, August 7th, Sept 5th and now you must leave October 4th. You will not be able to re enter Thailand without a visa or wait 90 days before coming back.

The cycle than can repeat itself.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Your example is incorrect, it doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense. 3 consecutive entries into Thailand, each time you get a stamp allowing you to stay 30 days. After this, you EITHER need to leave for 90 days in order to get another 30 day stamp OR, if you want to avoid that, you need to apply for and obtain a visa from a Thai embassy or consulate abroad. When you have a proper visa in your passport, you will be allowed to enter.

If it still isn't clear, please explain in what way.

try to define "consecutive entries into thailand," and then you'll see what's not clear.

sunbelt's example is the simplest of all cases to understand -- it's the stereotypical visa-running example with only a couple hours outside thailand each month.

what if the stamps are July 9, August 8 (not 7th), Sep 6 (not 5th).. are those still consecutive? after all, he stayed 1 night outside in the middle of it all.

what if the stamps are July 9, August 8, Sep 7? still consecutive? now each visa run has included an overnight outside the country?

what if the stamps are July 9, August 14, Sep 12? still consecutive? now there was 1 week outside the country during the 2nd visa run.

getting the picture? if those aren't considered "consecutive," then the visa run is still an option, it's just a little longer. if those are considered consecutive, how long do you need to leave? make it longer than the 1 week above, and you're going to prevent real tourism.

[LivinLOS]

Also what if the visitor only stayed 1 day inside Thailand on each visit.. Quite possible to have only been here incountry for 3 days yet have 3 consecutive 30 day stamps..

Are the culmulative days (if so within what time period)..

Or are these stamps and if so what defines back to back or what breaks one stamp from another.. 3 stamps in any 3 months puts oput a lot of legit regular shart visitors (hong kong shoppers and weekend bangkok tourists)..

Theres no clear definitions yet.

[binro]

At this time, it is only VOA's that the crackdown is after.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I have been visiting nearby countries for short holidays and getting three month, single entry visas from the consulate. Does that count as a visa run?

[yankeechief]

I am a US citizen and have never got a VOA when I arrived 1 year ago. I do not work, I am retired over fifty and have gone to the Camodian border every 30 days to extend my stay. I must go next week. will they allow me back in?

[libya 115]

I am a US citizen and have never got a VOA when I arrived 1 year ago. I do not work, I am retired over fifty and have gone to the Camodian border every 30 days to extend my stay. I must go next week. will they allow me back in?

Yes; because next week is not October 1st.

[chinthai]

I have been visiting nearby countries for short holidays and getting three month, single entry visas from the consulate. Does that count as a visa run?

no, this is not at time not a visa run, because it es not a VOA-Visa.

It can not be, that every trip in your home country is declared as visa run, if you come back with a new visa.

Question:

where you get your tourist visa for 3 month and you are married with Thai?

I have the same problem now. I think I go to Kuala Lumpur or Penang. I am married with a Thai.

[astral]

Topic closed.

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Thanks

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