Best / Easiest Second Citizenship For Americans

[sbk]

Yes, well regardless of whether or not some people think you cannot have dual as a US citizen (which I was told by a US consular officer that one must intend to renounce ones US citizenship in order to lose it, but that you could obtain dual with another country and not have the intent and thus not lose your US citizenship. And since intent is darn near impossible to prove unless the person formally renounces their citizenship, the US govt does not enforce this rule), this thread is not about losing ones citizenship, but gaining another. Not particularly Thailand related, as Old croc points out, but I can't reallly see how it fits in with farang pub either

So, are there any countries in SE Asia (or, if not, elsewhere) which make it easier to obtain citizenship than Thailand?

[Scott]

The problem of dual citizenship with America and Thailand has little to do with America and a lot to do with Thailand. Thailand does not want dual citizenship. People who have the option, when they turn 21, can chose Thai citizenship because Thailand will ask. You do not lose your U.S. citizenship, because the U.S. doesn't ask (or apparently care).

[Old Man River]

The problem of dual citizenship with America and Thailand has little to do with America and a lot to do with Thailand. Thailand does not want dual citizenship. People who have the option, when they turn 21, can chose Thai citizenship because Thailand will ask. You do not lose your U.S. citizenship, because the U.S. doesn't ask (or apparently care).

Scott, unless things have changed recently, Thailand does not ask.

[Old Man River]

As it relates to gaining Thai citizenship as a dual, it helps if you are famous. It wasn't all that long ago that the Thai government offered Tiger Woods Thai citizenship to go along with his US nationality. Smart as his advisers are, they quickly realized the alternative minimum tax would come into play, and Tiger politely declined.

[Khutan]

I think there are "Services" that will provide rather fast citizenship to Guyana, Suriname and also Portugal, for the fees of around $40K USD.

From what I understand they certainly are not within the spirit of International Law, therefore if tested to detail may leave you in a difficult situation.

[samran]

The problem of dual citizenship with America and Thailand has little to do with America and a lot to do with Thailand. Thailand does not want dual citizenship. People who have the option, when they turn 21, can chose Thai citizenship because Thailand will ask. You do not lose your U.S. citizenship, because the U.S. doesn't ask (or apparently care).

Apart from your last sentence, everything else that you have written is completely wrong and ill-informed.

[crawford]

Since you're posting on this board, I assume you do have an interest in SE Asia.

I'm looking into Singaporean citizenship, and it doesn't seem terribly difficult to obtain. First, you ought to obtain Permanent Residence, which takes ~3 months (you can apply as soon as you get a work visa, which is really easy with a job offer and a college degree). You can get citizenship after 2-6 years of permanent residence (not sure why the range), and can actually interview after only 1 year. All in all, 2.5 years or so should be enough, and Singapore is pleasant enough place to live and work, and close to Thailand to boot.

This is much better than 4-6 years on H1B for the green card + 6-7 years for the citizenship in the U.S. (officially 5, but by the time they process the app...)

An extra perk of SG citizenship is that you're eligible for an ASEAN card that exempts you from silly visa restrictions that Thailand is trying to impose these days.

The only unknown with the SG citizenship is the 1yr National Service (Army) requirement -- it can be waived for a PR, not sure about a citizen. If you're born a U.S. citizen, I think you can't lose your citizenship by serving in SG army, but if you're Naturalized, I think you might (the oath mentions something about not serving foreign gov'ts).

Update: SG may require you to renounce current citizenship. Odd, very few countries do so.

This is very interesting indeed! I haven't seriously considered S'pore citizenship before because I didn't know it was quite that easy to obtain.

More importantly, I have to imagine that crossing borders as a white guy with a Singapore passport is going to get me singled out every time. Especially because my 'Place of Birth: USA' will be right there in the passport. I'm almost sure this is going to enrage US immigration agents every time I enter this country. (For this reason I was thinking Switzerland might be my best bet - 'Place of Birth' isn't listed, but rather 'Place of Domicile', which is a Swiss city. Any thoughts on this?

But yeah - I've long been a big admirer of Lee Kwan Yew and the near-ideal city state he created - a near perfect blend of the best of Chinese, Japanese and Western cultures. (I know there aren't many Japanese living in S'pore - what I mean is that LKY was Chinese, lived under Japanese occupation and so developed quite a respect for them and their culture of discipline, cleanliness, industry, etc.; and also was British educated, all the way through Cambridge). Clean, very safe, delicious food everywhere, Chinese TV w/ English subtitles...good medical care, best airport & airline in the world, best air quality of any major Asian city, great public transportation - what's not to like? People can't spit chewing gum out on the sidewalk for me to step in? GOOD!

hel_l, I might even be willing to trade my US citizenship. But I need to know more - do you know of any Westerners (OK, white guys) who've become S'pore citizens? How's that working out for them? And how does that ASEAN card work? How long can I stay in Thailand and other ASEAN countries?

[crawford]

See also US won't give passport to US citizen

Well - there's gotta be more to that story. There must be a reason why the US won't give the guy a passport. As it stands, that's a very strange story.

[crawford]

It wasn't all that long ago that the Thai government offered Tiger Woods Thai citizenship to go along with his US nationality. Smart as his advisers are, they quickly realized the alternative minimum tax would come into play, and Tiger politely declined.

I don't understand. If you're talking about the US Alternative Minimum Tax, what would becoming a Thai citizen have to do with it?

Do you mean that if Tiger became a Thai citizen he'd be taxed by Thailand on his income, even though he's not resident in Thailand?

[crawford]

The difficulty for an American is that you also have to demonstrate a basic ability in the English language!

Ah yes - that might be tough. Do you think I'd have better luck with Singlish?

[crawford]

And where does what I said conflict with #15?

And while working that out, consider also, what might have caused me to take legal advice on this matter and why I might have spoken to a US Consular Official on the matter of US Dual Nationality?

Are you really in Italy? I heard it only takes 6 MONTHS to become an Italian citizen if you marry an Italian...is that possible? Best food in Europe, some very hot, beautiful girls, an EU passport, pretty easy and cool language... I'd consider it!

[crawford]

As for recieving or having dual citizenship at the moment, unless you recieve it at birth or it is bestowed on you without choice, you may be breaking rules if you try to 'acquire' it.

This is your misunderstanding. Those are the old rules. They were changed, quietly - maybe 20 years ago already. Today any American is free to become a citizen of another country, as per that country's rules, without fear of losing US citizenship. You can marry and/or become a permanent resident for the required number of years, and then apply.

[Old Man River]

It wasn't all that long ago that the Thai government offered Tiger Woods Thai citizenship to go along with his US nationality. Smart as his advisers are, they quickly realized the alternative minimum tax would come into play, and Tiger politely declined.

I don't understand. If you're talking about the US Alternative Minimum Tax, what would becoming a Thai citizen have to do with it?

Do you mean that if Tiger became a Thai citizen he'd be taxed by Thailand on his income, even though he's not resident in Thailand?

Hypothetically, if he earned money in Thailand, which he does from time to time via tournament play, as a Thai citizen he would owe Thai taxes. If he earned over the USD 80,000 amount (which he would), then he would have to pay US income tax. The US government allows a 90% tax credit on foreign taxes paid. The other 10% is known as the alternative minimum tax. You have to earn a good sum to get to this, but Tiger would.

Although I am a permanent resident of Thailand, I still have to pay US federal income tax. Same principal.

[crawford]

The problem of dual citizenship with America and Thailand has little to do with America and a lot to do with Thailand. Thailand does not want dual citizenship. People who have the option, when they turn 21, can chose Thai citizenship because Thailand will ask. You do not lose your U.S. citizenship, because the U.S. doesn't ask (or apparently care).

Apart from your last sentence, everything else that you have written is completely wrong and ill-informed.

I'd like to hear more....

What is the situation with Thailand? Can a farang become a Thai citizen? If so, how? Do any of you know anyone who's done it? What are the advantages and disadvantages?

[crawford]

It wasn't all that long ago that the Thai government offered Tiger Woods Thai citizenship to go along with his US nationality. Smart as his advisers are, they quickly realized the alternative minimum tax would come into play, and Tiger politely declined.

I don't understand. If you're talking about the US Alternative Minimum Tax, what would becoming a Thai citizen have to do with it?

Do you mean that if Tiger became a Thai citizen he'd be taxed by Thailand on his income, even though he's not resident in Thailand?

Hypothetically, if he earned money in Thailand, which he does from time to time via tournament play, as a Thai citizen he would owe Thai taxes. If he earned over the USD 80,000 amount (which he would), then he would have to pay US income tax. The US government allows a 90% tax credit on foreign taxes paid. The other 10% is known as the alternative minimum tax. You have to earn a good sum to get to this, but Tiger would.

Although I am a permanent resident of Thailand, I still have to pay US federal income tax. Same principal.

Interesting. Do you also pay state income tax to the US state you formerly resided in?

Is it tough to become a permanent resident of Thailand? Can you apply for citizenship after a number of years? Have you ever thought of expatriating for tax purposes? I hear Asian countries generally have much lower taxes than even the US (which has low taxes compared to other Western countries).

[Thaiquila]

If you give up your US citizenship, the IRS will still go after you and legally can go after you, especially if they suspect you gave up your American citizenship to evade taxes.

I think there are some Caribbean countries where you can buy citizenship/passport: Grenada and Dominica for example.

Leaving the US because of bush is kind of silly. He is on his way out. Hallelujah!

http://bushclock.lose.com/

It used to be pretty easy to get a passport from Belize ...Probaby still is!

Yes, USED to be.

Belize has CANCELLED this program. Too late.

[Old Man River]

It wasn't all that long ago that the Thai government offered Tiger Woods Thai citizenship to go along with his US nationality. Smart as his advisers are, they quickly realized the alternative minimum tax would come into play, and Tiger politely declined.

I don't understand. If you're talking about the US Alternative Minimum Tax, what would becoming a Thai citizen have to do with it?

Do you mean that if Tiger became a Thai citizen he'd be taxed by Thailand on his income, even though he's not resident in Thailand?

Hypothetically, if he earned money in Thailand, which he does from time to time via tournament play, as a Thai citizen he would owe Thai taxes. If he earned over the USD 80,000 amount (which he would), then he would have to pay US income tax. The US government allows a 90% tax credit on foreign taxes paid. The other 10% is known as the alternative minimum tax. You have to earn a good sum to get to this, but Tiger would.

Although I am a permanent resident of Thailand, I still have to pay US federal income tax. Same principal.

Interesting. Do you also pay state income tax to the US state you formerly resided in?

Is it tough to become a permanent resident of Thailand? Can you apply for citizenship after a number of years? Have you ever thought of expatriating for tax purposes? I hear Asian countries generally have much lower taxes than even the US (which has low taxes compared to other Western countries).

If the state you formerly resided in has state taxes then you have to pay these taxes as well.

Crawford, this is too many questions for me to deal with. There is a lot of info already on TV. Just go to the search area and you can find it. As it relates to my US citizenship, I consider myself lucky to have it and I would never think of giving it up for any reason.

[boppia]

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

"Dual Nationality

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad. "

Why word things this way? I guess it's so the man can always stick it to YOU.

Actually, I love the US. I would never renounce my citizenship there. I just want equal opportunity; that's all. It has nothing to do with other countries' laws; it's about discrimination in US law. But it seems to me, as an average joe, that the wording in the above is flip-floppy.

[Loom]

Since you're posting on this board, I assume you do have an interest in SE Asia.

I'm looking into Singaporean citizenship, and it doesn't seem terribly difficult to obtain. First, you ought to obtain Permanent Residence, which takes ~3 months (you can apply as soon as you get a work visa, which is really easy with a job offer and a college degree). You can get citizenship after 2-6 years of permanent residence (not sure why the range), and can actually interview after only 1 year. All in all, 2.5 years or so should be enough, and Singapore is pleasant enough place to live and work, and close to Thailand to boot.

This is much better than 4-6 years on H1B for the green card + 6-7 years for the citizenship in the U.S. (officially 5, but by the time they process the app...)

An extra perk of SG citizenship is that you're eligible for an ASEAN card that exempts you from silly visa restrictions that Thailand is trying to impose these days.

The only unknown with the SG citizenship is the 1yr National Service (Army) requirement -- it can be waived for a PR, not sure about a citizen. If you're born a U.S. citizen, I think you can't lose your citizenship by serving in SG army, but if you're Naturalized, I think you might (the oath mentions something about not serving foreign gov'ts).

Update: SG may require you to renounce current citizenship. Odd, very few countries do so.

This is very interesting indeed! I haven't seriously considered S'pore citizenship before because I didn't know it was quite that easy to obtain.

More importantly, I have to imagine that crossing borders as a white guy with a Singapore passport is going to get me singled out every time. Especially because my 'Place of Birth: USA' will be right there in the passport. I'm almost sure this is going to enrage US immigration agents every time I enter this country. (For this reason I was thinking Switzerland might be my best bet - 'Place of Birth' isn't listed, but rather 'Place of Domicile', which is a Swiss city. Any thoughts on this?

But yeah - I've long been a big admirer of Lee Kwan Yew and the near-ideal city state he created - a near perfect blend of the best of Chinese, Japanese and Western cultures. (I know there aren't many Japanese living in S'pore - what I mean is that LKY was Chinese, lived under Japanese occupation and so developed quite a respect for them and their culture of discipline, cleanliness, industry, etc.; and also was British educated, all the way through Cambridge). Clean, very safe, delicious food everywhere, Chinese TV w/ English subtitles...good medical care, best airport & airline in the world, best air quality of any major Asian city, great public transportation - what's not to like? People can't spit chewing gum out on the sidewalk for me to step in? GOOD!

hel_l, I might even be willing to trade my US citizenship. But I need to know more - do you know of any Westerners (OK, white guys) who've become S'pore citizens? How's that working out for them? And how does that ASEAN card work? How long can I stay in Thailand and other ASEAN countries?

Singapore is encouraging foreign immigrants due to low birth rate. So it does seem easy once u have a job or setup a business. Becoming a permanent resident is a breeze. Problem with Singapore is that "they" don't allow dual nationals.

Advantage would be low tax rate. Offshore income for businesses, at least, is tax free. Passport is also fairly decent travel document, but I'm not sure if it's as good as a US passport. Also, many advantages over living in the US like very low crime rate, cleanliness, excellent infrastructure and "leafy" surroundings for a major city. Singapore is also a good example of how a country can maintain a high degree of security without being rude about it.

Additionally and unlike the US, Singapore must be one of the few places in the world where people with a variety of ethnic backgrounds co-exist without arguing with each other.

Downside would be that you'd be closing the door on livng in the US and a relatively high cost of housing (for expats, at least). Singaporeans get singled out by security in US airports, but maybe not if u don't look asian. If retirement in Thailand/asia is in the cards, probably worth considering.

[fxm88]

The US government allows a 90% tax credit on foreign taxes paid. The other 10% is known as the alternative minimum tax.

I'm no tax expert and the AMT sure is confusing but I don't think I've ever heard of it used in this way. Do you have more information?

A brief overview of the alternative minimum tax (AMT)

Tax Guide, The Alternative Minimum Tax

[fxm88]

Additionally and unlike the US, Singapore must be one of the few places in the world where people with a variety of ethnic backgrounds co-exist without arguing with each other.

Um, maybe that's because it's illegal to argue in Singapore?

Third racist blogger convicted but may avoid jail term, October 27, 2005

Jesus cartoons could draw jail for Singapore blogger, June 14, 2006

[Loom]

Additionally and unlike the US, Singapore must be one of the few places in the world where people with a variety of ethnic backgrounds co-exist without arguing with each other.

Um, maybe that's because it's illegal to argue in Singapore?

Third racist blogger convicted but may avoid jail term, October 27, 2005

Jesus cartoons could draw jail for Singapore blogger, June 14, 2006

And that's what makes it possible to walk down the streets at night without having to fear for your personal security. If you treasure the right to insult people on the basis of race or religion, not such a good idea in my opinion anywhere, then it's not the place for you.

[NovaBlue05]

Additionally and unlike the US, Singapore must be one of the few places in the world where people with a variety of ethnic backgrounds co-exist without arguing with each other.

I dont argue with anybody here in the US. The only people I see arguing are the old, fat white guys on Capital Hill

[baboon]

From what I understand, Israeli citizenship is straigtforward if you declare yourself to be Jewish. Apparently, lots of rich Russian "Jews" hold Israeli passports just in case the taxman comes a knocking....

[crawford]

Yeah, but Israeli passport is really only good to travel to Israel. I mean, it does get you visa-free access to a lot of countries, but Israelis are even more hated around the world than Americans - probably the only nationality that can claim this. Just as unjustified as all the anti-Americanism, but what can you do?

Anyone know about Swiss citizenship?

[Sing_Sling]

How sad to see people discussing obtaining a different nationality as if it were like changing your shorts. Crawford, mate, you need to do some growing up.

Let me put this as nicely as possible: You have buckleys (no chance) of being granted citizenship simply because you want to have another passport, and the countries you can buy it from are countries that don't allow you visa-free travel anyway.

Don't forget the interview process and ask yourself if Australia, New Zealand, France, Canada, Germany, Switzerland etc . . . would grant you citizenship because 'you want to travel on another passport' - - - What value are you adding to their country? <deleted>' nothing.

(Umm, on another post about the police sergeant getting 3+ years in jail you mention that the US is afe and you have to go looking for trouble and that you are amazed that a cop did the dirty here. On this thread you are virtually quivering about the crime rate in the US . . .

Double nationality as well as double personality?)

[Loom]

Israeli citizenship also has national service obligations.

Idealogically, Crawford has a point. The current US administration has had a knack with finessing public opinion ....while intimidating those who know better to keep their mouth shut. (See excerpts from New York Times book review below).

Maybe better to stay put and protest with your vote rather than protesting with a change in nationalities.

After 3 years of residence, I'm probably only a few hours of paperwork away from Singapore citizenship. What value would I add? Taxable income and local investment.

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Sunday, September 17, 2006

IN SUNDAY'S BOOK REVIEW

Ray Bartkus

'The Greatest Story Ever Sold,' by Frank Rich

Review by IAN BURUMA

As a former theater critic, Frank Rich has the perfect credentials for writing an account of the Bush administration, which has done so much to blur the lines between politics and show business. Rich's subject is the creation of false reality. "The Greatest Story Ever Sold" is not about policies, or geopolitical analysis. The point of Rich's fine polemic is that the Bush administration has consistently lied about the reasons for going to war, about the way it was conducted and about the terrible consequences. Whatever the merits of removing a dictator, waging war under false pretenses is highly damaging to a democracy, especially when one of the ostensible aims is to spread democracy to others.

How could this have happened? How could some of the best, most fact-checked, most reputable news organizations in the English-speaking world have been so gullible? An air of intimidation, which hung over the United States like a noxious vapor after 9/11, is part of the explanation. Susan Sontag became a national hate figure just for saying that United States foreign policy might have had something to do with violent anti-Americanism. When John Ashcroft declared to the Senate that people who challenged his highly questionable policies “give ammunition to America’s enemies,” he was simply echoing the ranters and ravers of talk radio. No wonder that the mainstream press, after being continuously accused of “liberal bias,” preferred to keep its head down.