Mass shooting at Charleston church in South Carolina leaves 9 dead

[rijb]

I think the good guys need to shoot back.

One thing America does not lack is violence, and adding even more of it to the mix is unlikely to help matters much.

Turn the other cheek?

[Jingthing]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

Also, it's not really logical for an "atheist" terrorist (pretty rare thing) to attack a black church being that it would be mistaken to be a race thing, why not attack a white church?

Similarly it's not really logical for an Islamic Jihadist to go after black people even Christians as the truth is there are plenty of African American Muslims. It would be more logical for them to go after either Jews or a white church.

But again, we'll see.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[MaxYakov]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

Also, it's not really logical for an "atheist" terrorist (pretty rare thing) to attack a black church being that it would be mistaken to be a race thing, why not attack a white church?

Similarly it's not really logical for an Islamic Jihadist to go after black people even Christians as the truth is there are plenty of African American Muslims. It would be more logical for them to go after either Jews or a white church.

But again, we'll see.

So you believe the shooter to be a logical psychopath?

[Jingthing]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

Also, it's not really logical for an "atheist" terrorist (pretty rare thing) to attack a black church being that it would be mistaken to be a race thing, why not attack a white church?

Similarly it's not really logical for an Islamic Jihadist to go after black people even Christians as the truth is there are plenty of African American Muslims. It would be more logical for them to go after either Jews or a white church.

But again, we'll see.

So you believe the shooter to be a logical psychopath?

I get your point but if his murdering wasn't meant to have some kind of political message, why did he pick that target? Could have been random but that is clearly not likely.

[brewsterbudgen]

Has it been blamed on Obama yet?

[Guest]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

Also, it's not really logical for an "atheist" terrorist (pretty rare thing) to attack a black church being that it would be mistaken to be a race thing, why not attack a white church?

Similarly it's not really logical for an Islamic Jihadist to go after black people even Christians as the truth is there are plenty of African American Muslims. It would be more logical for them to go after either Jews or a white church.

But again, we'll see.

So you believe the shooter to be a logical psychopath?

I get your point but if his murdering wasn't meant to have some kind of political message, why did he pick that target? Could have been random but that is clearly not likely.

The church's pastor, state Sen. Clementa Pinckney, was among those killed.

Pinckney 41, was a married father of two who was elected to the state house at age 23, making him the youngest member of the House at the time.

[Jingthing]

It seems unlikely it was a hit on the pastor. Why kill all the others?

The perp may have been wearing a wig or hairnet.

So if he ditches the wig, clothes, and car, his description of a thin young white guy is going to be hard to find.

[Scott]

I think it is a little too early in this thread to have a general discussion of gun laws. Until the person is caught we can't ascertain if the gun was owned by the shooter legally for starters.

[blacksuitdandruff]

Only 9?

Black on black murders is probably much greater than this in the same state on the same day.

Heaven forbid a white man take part in the murder toll of blacks.

[Ulysses G.]

Another white American male kills indiscriminately.

Actually, white American males have a pretty good record compared to minorities. The offending rate for blacks when it comes to homicides is almost 8 times higher than whites.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

It has been a VERY long time since that was true, but I have to admit that a backwards KKK type sprung to mind first as a suspect.

[Guest]

Again ?

Shocking!

R. I. P.

Yes, it is getting worse and worse in America.

The situation may get out of control soon if they did not change the regulations regarding gun possession.

What do you think?

I think the good guys need to shoot back.

Using Guns In Self-Defense Is Rare, Study Finds

Thank you for the odd moment where you think more people need to shoot back ... and a well written article that proves that is urban legend promoted by the NRA to crank up gun sales.

There was a long extended "debate" the other day on gun ownership here on Thia Visa.

I learned something.

It ain't gonna change ... both sides are dug in and it is a political siege.

In the mean while, the 100,000 grieving family and friends of the scores of dead Americans ... silently go on burying thier loved ones .. who .. if there were no guns ... many would still be here today.

I am not interested in a debate .. I am anti gun and pro peace. If that is hard to understand ... OK.

But I did learn, debating the gun people wastes both of our time.

They will not budge, and neither will I.

I will let the river of blood speak for itself in terms of right, wrong and sanity.

Look around tonight, enjoy life and what it offers ... no one gets out of this game alive.

[Jingthing]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

It has been a VERY long time since that was true, but I have to admit that a backwards KKK type sprung to mind first as a suspect.

That is true. It's been a long time.

But regardless of what the killer is about this kind of incident in the context of the recent increase in racial national tensions focused on police treatment of black people could potentially be a kind of SPARK for things to get even worse.

[saakura]

Has it been blamed on Obama yet?

No but Mr.T and the red shirts could have had a hand in this.

[arjunadawn]

I feel it is only right to begin a comment by noting my disgust at the thought of people in community service, celebrating their god and each other, to be struck down for any reason whatsoever. This is a horrible crime and in many ways, though crimes of greater numbers of victims eclipse this, this and schools are uniquely repugnant.

It has been previously noted on TV that such acts regarding race problems in the US will escalate dramatically. Regretably, this is correct. There are so many angles for which to consider this horror: guns, rights, race, hate, integration, alienation, economic justice, disparity, government instigation, permissiveness of racial division, media crime reporting bias= one sided media representation of racial crime, labeling of entire populations, corruption of blood making whites guilty for things they have never done, the failure of integration, affirmative action, etc., ad nauseum. But the approach that concerns me most because it is the most contrived, the most artificial and the most provocative, is the apparent machinery of state that seems to foster such division, increasingly. I am well aware of my country's heritage and as a world traveler all my life I have noted the racial histories of other nations to compare, and have never known a better example of a people trying to atone for the sins of the past. Not only have great strides been made to foster fraternity in the US but intrinsic to that dissolving border seems to be the awareness that there is great power in a wounded voice, special accommodations, protections, and outcomes.

It is apparent that in many regards... many... black America embraces a victim mentality, though not all. But it is the aspect of black America that embraces this that motivates the militancy on their behalf. The white side? Well, as noted earlier there has generally never been a lacking number of militant whites. The policies of government that foment division simply bring out the whites that feel their efforts or patience in assimilation are pointless. Black America embraced their victimization because it allows them to submit the argument they are not and cannot be accountable for their actions because inherent in the fact that they are black they are incapable of racism. When one views the issue with the lens of government programs it is apparent that these many programs actually presume a degree of incapability and generational dependency. It is presumed and the nature of qualifying for the benefits are so low that effectively no burden exists. In a society where equality in outcomes is now engrained into every school whereby every child gets a star for effort, there is no incentive to self reliant life, yet the natural human desire for more continues. I refuse to believe that black Americans, as a block, choose this path. It is apparent that government induced their world, but whites did not. Government did! Free stuff to pacify perceived sin.

Obama should not be viewed in relation to this problem as a black man but as a leader, as a socialist militant leader who is more determined to capitalize on black plight than effect positive change as a role model, an impossibly high bully pulpit would have enabled this. He never tried. http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/09/02/7-devastating-economic-facts-affecting-black-americans/

When you realize these programs have been extended broadly to white America it is obvious the effort is to soften the blow of near universal poverty setting in. More and more of white and black America compete for less and less resources and throwing intentional division into the mix simply provokes grievances. Al Sharpen, a racial baiter in the extreme, has visited the White House more than any other visitor. He is a man of singular output. http://www.newsmax.com/US/Rudy-Giuliani-Al-Sharpton-White-House/2014/12/30/id/615632/

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/06/politics/poll-obama-race-relations-worse/

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/29/politics/ted-cruz-obama-racial-tensions-election-2016/

Nearly the entire population of the US is now dependent on programs that were originally intended to be short term, or to remedy previous acts towards minorities. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/7-facts-about-government-benefits-and-who-gets-them/266428/

http://blackdemographics.com/households/poverty/

This dependency, lack of a viable economy, and disproportionally affecting black America, turns up the heat on grievances and escalation. It takes little now to stir to flames, but this president seeks to do just this. http://www.infowars.com/why-the-obama-administration-is-so-determined-to-start-a-race-war/

http://nymag.com/news/features/obama-presidency-race-2014-4/

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1672

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/tucker-carlson-to-alex-jones-obama-using-racial-fears-to-divide-america/

If my post lost consistency, I am sorry. My effort was to point out that

1. Black America was originally the receipt of programs designed to repair disenfranchisement but later became bedrock grants for generations, and then expanded to pull most of white America in as well.

2. These programs induce dependency and victimization but within this scope black America as a percentage or injured more, or the general perception goes.

3. It may or may not be true these programs were an intentional action or not, but under this administration actions have been taken that have fostered increased poverty, despair, and hopelessness among black America. Concurrently, white America is consistently now backed into a corner for crimes they have not committed and are made to feel socially and economically guilty, indeed, even their children are now being taught they possess "white privilege," a label that silences all further dissent to black militancy.

4. Whether it is the goal or the opportunity the net result of tearing the social fabric in the US will be the nationalization of the Police and the increase in the Leviathan, State.

[Jingthing]

BTW, I just heard there was a wave of white racist attacks on black churches as early as the 1990's. I was thinking before about during the 1960's etc. but the 1990's isn't that long ago.

[arjunadawn]

BTW, I just heard there was a wave of white racist attacks on black churches as early as the 1990's. I was thinking before about during the 1960's etc. but the 1990's isn't that long ago.

Yea, I think there is little shortage, in some areas, of those willing to act our violently toward blacks. I think it is fair to say intentional, willful, black on white crime just because they are white is a developing phenomena, though not black on white crime. It is in this recipe I think fires are being stoked.

[Emster23]

I like to do comparison of coverage when these things happen. Checked BBC, Al Jazeera and Fox regarding press conference. BBC covered it all, AL J most of it, and Fox had some filler about hand signals on floor of stock market. BBC did nice follow up on history of that church, interviews with mostly black folks in SC... nice job. Al J went off to story on Syria. Fox finally got on and Giuiliani started off on ramble praising himself that quickly morphed into somehow tying this with ISIS. Nothing from press conference.

I have this feeling that UK sees itself as somewhat older brother to USA, shakes head and wonders if USA will ever get out of teen years (I'm a yank, btw).

Edited June 18, 2015 by Emster23

[Suradit69]

RIP...

Another sad day for America.

Walk into a Church and start shooting, almost certainly none of the victims had a gun in church to be able to defend themselves.

" almost certainly none of the victims had a gun in church to be able to defend themselves."

All you need is a few armed civilians firing wildly in "self defense" to ensure the body count would have been worse than it was.

[sdanielmcev]

From thousands of miles away, TV members can delve into the mind of a lone man, yet can't figure out the woman (or man) next to them. Wait for the facts.

[Ulysses G.]

I like to do comparison of coverage when these things happen. Checked BBC, Al Jazeera and Fox regarding press conference. BBC covered it all, AL J most of it, and Fox had some filler about hand signals on floor of stock market.

You were watching Fox Extra, which comes on when some stations show a commercial. Fox News is doing plenty on this story. Your bias against them is obvious.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

I like to do comparison of coverage when these things happen. Checked BBC, Al Jazeera and Fox regarding press conference. BBC covered it all, AL J most of it, and Fox had some filler about hand signals on floor of stock market.

You were watching Fox Extra, which comes on when some stations show a commercial. Fox News is doing plenty on this story. Your bias against them is obvious.

Fox obviously does have a right wing political bias but they will also cover this story extensively. They are not mutually exclusive.

[Chicog]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

Also, it's not really logical for an "atheist" terrorist (pretty rare thing) to attack a black church being that it would be mistaken to be a race thing, why not attack a white church?

Similarly it's not really logical for an Islamic Jihadist to go after black people even Christians as the truth is there are plenty of African American Muslims. It would be more logical for them to go after either Jews or a white church.

But again, we'll see.

So you believe the shooter to be a logical psychopath?

Not intending to offer any opinion, but it was reported that he may have sat in the congregation for an hour before launching his attack. Strange behaviour to say the least.

[StevieH]

I like to do comparison of coverage when these things happen. Checked BBC, Al Jazeera and Fox regarding press conference. BBC covered it all, AL J most of it, and Fox had some filler about hand signals on floor of stock market.

You were watching Fox Extra, which comes on when some stations show a commercial. Fox News is doing plenty on this story. Your bias against them is obvious.

Fox obviously does have a right wing political bias but they will also cover this story extensively. They are not mutually exclusive.

fox also still incapable of calling it what it so clearly is:

[Wat dee]

Only 9?

Black on black murders is probably much greater than this in the same state on the same day.

Heaven forbid a white man take part in the murder toll of blacks.

White cops will keep numbers up, don't worry.

[StevieH]

BTW, I just heard there was a wave of white racist attacks on black churches as early as the 1990's. I was thinking before about during the 1960's etc. but the 1990's isn't that long ago.

"You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/18/1394274/--You-rape-our-women-and-you-re-taking-over-our-country

i think it's pretty safe to say that this was a racist attack.

[Ulysses G.]

I like to do comparison of coverage when these things happen. Checked BBC, Al Jazeera and Fox regarding press conference. BBC covered it all, AL J most of it, and Fox had some filler about hand signals on floor of stock market.

You were watching Fox Extra, which comes on when some stations show a commercial. Fox News is doing plenty on this story. Your bias against them is obvious.

Fox obviously does have a right wing political bias but they will also cover this story extensively. They are not mutually exclusive.

fox also still incapable of calling it what it so clearly is:

What a load of crap. Fox is covering the story in depth and offering all the different theories about the crime.

http://www.foxnews.com/

[StevieH]

hahaha. bless.

[Guest]

hahaha. bless.

"Hahaha" I have two words for you, and it ain't "Merry Christmas"

[StevieH]

hahaha. bless.

"Hahaha" I have two words for you, and it ain't "Merry Christmas"

my post was a reply to the previous one by the way. just in case you're taking me out of context here.