Koh Tao: Men accused of killing Brit backpackers plead with victims' families for justice

[StealthEnergiser]

November 3, 2014 1:00 am

What about bar manager accused of harassing victim at Koh Tao?

It would be nice to know who the witness has handed the photograph to.

A British witness had taken a photo of two men pestering the female victim not long before she was raped and murdered. He went to her assistance. One of the two troublemakers identified by the British witness and appearing in the photo is the bar manager. He is the bar owner's brother or nephew.

The public has every right to point out lapses by the police in the investigation of a homicide. A trained crime investigator takes nothing for granted. Since the bar manager, a close relative of the bar owner, was (allegedly) groping and annoying the victim before her rape and murder, police could rightfully scrutinise him and other male relatives of his who were - or could have been - in the vicinity at the time of the murders.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/What-about-bar-manager-accused-of-harassing-victim-30246806.html

Edited July 5, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[IslandLover]

GOLDBUGGY

I am not too lazy to read, nor am I a liar. I've read virtually every press report (in Thai, Burmese and English) connected with this case since last September and I read the reports contained in the links you provided ages ago. As you well know, the story about Hannah being harrassed by gangsters in the AC bar has been vehemently denied by the Thai authorities and no real eyewitnesses have come forward to actually confirm it - not even the travelling companions of David and Hannah. In addition, the rumoured photograph of said altercation has never surfaced. This is why I'm surprised you are claiming that it is true.

Regarding the t-shirt, it has only been mentioned in the context of the judge allowing the defence team to independently examine the DNA evidence (order given at the court hearing on 30th April 2015, which was later rescinded). Nowhere in any press report does it say that it was Hannah's blood on this t-shirt and it could just as easily have been David's.

Please stop stating unfounded rumours/hearsay/questionable press reporting as FACTS. You know no more about this case and the actual evidence against the accused than any of us do on this forum. Let's hope the forthcoming trial will shed some light on it.

Did I say it was Hannah's Blood? I believe it was the person questioning about the shirt who mentioned that. I never said it was Davids or Hannah's. I just said a shirt was mentioned as evidence, where you and others didn't believe me and said I made that up. So I proved to you I did not make it up by linking you to a Media Report.

You also said I made this up about the gangster chatting up Hannah in the bar, so again I showed you by media link this was mentioned also. That again I did not make this up.Although I believe you made it up about a Police report stating this never happened.

So since I proved to all I did not make this up, it is so ludicrous for you now to try and make me prove this actually happened or didn't. I didn't write these News Articles. Talk to the people who did, to find that out. I only said it was reported when you said t wasn't. So I proved by both Links I did not make this up and it was reported.

So you lose as you were wrong! Take your Defeat with Grace and walk away. End of Discussion!

"So you lose as you were wrong! Take your Defeat with Grace and walk away. End of Discussion!"

Here we go again with your confrontational comments! I didn't realise it was a competition!

And by the way, in case you didn't know :-

Is the noun "liar" considered offensive? - English Language & Usage

english.stackexchange.com/questions/9561/is-the-noun-liar-considered-offensive-would-it-be-offensive-to-use-it-with-a

Jan 21, 2011 ... Calling someone a liar is making a very aggressive statement.

Thank you sambum. The personal attacks generated by this poster are getting out of hand. I am going to follow my own advice from now on and not feed the troll.

[GOLDBUGGY]

A New twist to this case was on the night of the Rape and Murders, two of David's British Friends apparently showed up at the same Bar at 4 am with Blood on a Guitar on bodies. Or according to the defense team. When asked they said they were in a motorbike accident. I forgot to save the Link but check the accused Lawyers Name and Google that and you will find this.

The next day, 2 guys approached one of these guys 9who he called mafia) and said they knew it was him. That if he did not confess to this crime they would kill him. He fled the island but I do not know if they got DNA from him yet. Only know they wanted some.

The other guy in the accident was Davids Best Friend. These are the 2 British Subjects the defense wants to bring back for further questioning.

Another twist is that they found a Blond Hair not belonging to Hannah in her dead hand. I don't know if it was David's. I do know it could not belong to either of the accuses.

This has become a real mystery!

What ! You mean the two people you are calling dirty murdering scum might not be dirty murdering scum ?

Don't forget about the Thai defamation laws.

Maybe you will be taking their place in a cell once it is vacated.

It is not me calling all the Police Corrupt up to the Generals, planting evidence, and calling them Liars. It is you who has done that.

So if I was you I would be the one who should be more careful.

[GOLDBUGGY]

November 3, 2014 1:00 am

What about bar manager accused of harassing victim at Koh Tao?

It would be nice to know who the witness has handed the photograph to.

A British witness had taken a photo of two men pestering the female victim not long before she was raped and murdered. He went to her assistance. One of the two troublemakers identified by the British witness and appearing in the photo is the bar manager. He is the bar owner's brother or nephew.

The public has every right to point out lapses by the police in the investigation of a homicide. A trained crime investigator takes nothing for granted. Since the bar manager, a close relative of the bar owner, was (allegedly) groping and annoying the victim before her rape and murder, police could rightfully scrutinise him and other male relatives of his who were - or could have been - in the vicinity at the time of the murders.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/What-about-bar-manager-accused-of-harassing-victim-30246806.html

I would be be careful with that post. When I said here that here I got attacked by 2 or 3 people who said I just made this up and called me a Liar. But if you read further in another post you will see that they were suspects, but were later cleared after their DNA didn't match.

[boomerangutang]

I mean if they were after some Drug Lord or Gangster like Al Capone, I might believe that they would twist the truth a little bit. Maybe even plant some evidence. But for 2 poor Migrant Workers? For Heavens Sake Why?

Here are some possible reasons why:

>>> probably big under-the-table payoffs,

>>> not wanting to get on the wrong side of a family with a reputation for being mafia-like,

>>> no wanting to implicate any Thais,

>>> Not wanting to anger Mon or his cop friends, or his mafia-like buddies,

>>> Not wanting to embarass the self-appointed MP who has been saying this is 'a perfect investigation' and has already given rewards (money? promotions?) to some of the principle officers. Indeed, when the initial head cop, Panya was abruptly pulled off the case, soon after Mon and Nomsod were named prime suspects, Panya was promoted, but put in a desk job in Hkk and told to keep mum about the case.

So if you were on the defense team, and if this was true, how would you handle the case? Would you fight to the bitter end and risk the Death Penalty, with hopes on more success on your appeals, or would you try to cut a deal with the Prosecution, pleading Guilty and taking the Life In Prison instead.

Easy Q. I would charge straight ahead, mounted on my trusty steed named Justice. My clients were already given that deal ('admit guilt, and you won't get the death penalty') and a few days later, when they felt safe enough and became apprised of their legal rights, chose to retract their forced signing of a document they couldn't read. Will we ever see video or hear audio or read transcripts of that forced confession? ha ha ha, of course not. This is Thailand. Cops make the rules and can do what they want, with impunity.

[boomerangutang]

Actually, this case is bigger than just trying to find justice for David and Hannah. It's bigger than trying to find justice for the two Burmese.

This case could cause a changes in how RTP does its business. Even now, before the trial starts, I wouldn't doubt the RTP are at least considering the following improvements for future crimes:

>>> secure the crime scene. Don't allow any 'persons of interest' on the scene, no matter how important they are (as Mon presents himself). As much as possible, only allow a few experts on the scene, and they should all have latex gloves and evidence-gathering clean baggies with provisions for marking evidence. The crime scene should also be well mapped and good quality photos taken (the photos we've seen of the KT crime scene evidence are false color and blurry).

>>> Don't make a flurry of official announcements. Make some announcements, but try to make them well-thought-out and truthful.

>>> Don't express worries about 'low tourism numbers, if this case isn't solved soon' syndrome. Every news article in the first few weeks of the KT crime, had at least half its ink devoted to lamenting the loss of tourist revenue. It looks crass to outsiders - especially to farang.

>>> Leave 'no stone unturned.' Be objective. Don't be cowed by VIP's who say 'no, you can't look at that' re; phone records, habitations, CCTV, etc etc etc. ....which happened many times in the early stages of the investigation.

>>> Do a professional and objective job. Yes, I used the word 'objective' twice, because Thais are genetically incapable of doing anything objectively. Everything they do is enmeshed with subjectivity. It's a combination of; who the person is, their wealth, their power quotient, whether they're embedded in Buddhism, or Royalty, or which important people know, whether they're farang or Thai or Hill tribe or Burmese or Cambodian or Black, etc etc etc etc etc.

If you were to type a letter to a Thai gov't official with a request, that official would first need to know your name (so he/she could gauge whether you're a farang), then your age, whether you're attractive, whether you're well-connected, rich or poor, well-groomed, well educated, whether you know any of their family members, etc etc etc .....before being able to give a response to your request.

[boomerangutang]

I'm sorry to post so much, but I want to expand a bit on one of the points I just made: regarding advice to RTP investigators not being cowed by VIP's turning down requests for added info re; a crime.

There are two little words which are heard often in Thailand: 'mai dai.' It means: 'cannot'. I hear it daily, sometimes often each day. Thais want all Thais to grow up thinking alike. What ensues, is: every Thai has a good idea of what every other Thai's response will be to any given question or scenario. For example: if I ask my Thai friend to go in a restaurant and ask them if they can make a tuna sandwich with mayo, my friend will immediately say 'mai dai.' He won't go in the store and ask the question, because he already knows the answer. Five years ago, if I walked in an AIS store and asked if I could get a phone account in my farang name, any person working in there would immediately say 'mai dai.' If I walk in the EGAT place (electric power) tomorrow and ask anyone if I can get electric service in my name, they will see I'm a farang and immediately say 'mai dai.' A week ago, I went to the border crossing at 7:50 pm and the official at the office kept saying 'mai dai' when I asked if I could cross the border. I didn't give up, and in my nicest voice, I kept saying I wanted to try. She kept saying 'mai dai.' Finally, she grudgingly allowed me to pass, saying, "if it's closed on the other side, then you have to sleep on the bridge tonight." The other side closes at 9 pm, so I had plenty of time, and the Burmese officials on the other side were a happy contrast to the 'mai dai' lady on the Thai side.

My point is: if RTP even ventured to mention they might ask Mon for CCTV footage or ask Nomsod or Mon for their mobile phones to check their calling history for the 14th/15th, any other cops who heard them express that idea, would immediately say 'mai dai.' Indeed, Mon and Nomsod and NS's lawyer would all say 'mai dai.' Same for all others connected the Headman. And not just phone records, but also CCTV from the bars they own, as well as travel itinerary (Nok Air flight from monday morning) speedboat drivers, laundry places near the crime scene, and such. At every turn, I'm sure they'd hear a Greek chorus of 'mai dai' 'mai dai''mai dai''mai dai' from every Thai who's involved.

Welcome to Thailand. 'Land of Mai Dai'

[berybert]

A New twist to this case was on the night of the Rape and Murders, two of David's British Friends apparently showed up at the same Bar at 4 am with Blood on a Guitar on bodies. Or according to the defense team. When asked they said they were in a motorbike accident. I forgot to save the Link but check the accused Lawyers Name and Google that and you will find this.

The next day, 2 guys approached one of these guys 9who he called mafia) and said they knew it was him. That if he did not confess to this crime they would kill him. He fled the island but I do not know if they got DNA from him yet. Only know they wanted some.

The other guy in the accident was Davids Best Friend. These are the 2 British Subjects the defense wants to bring back for further questioning.

Another twist is that they found a Blond Hair not belonging to Hannah in her dead hand. I don't know if it was David's. I do know it could not belong to either of the accuses.

This has become a real mystery!

What ! You mean the two people you are calling dirty murdering scum might not be dirty murdering scum ?

Don't forget about the Thai defamation laws.

Maybe you will be taking their place in a cell once it is vacated.

It is not me calling all the Police Corrupt up to the Generals, planting evidence, and calling them Liars. It is you who has done that.

So if I was you I would be the one who should be more careful.

I don't live in Thailand anymore. I have no need to be careful of what I say. One of the joys of living in the western world is you can speak the truth about things without having to worry about being sent to a camp for re-educating.

So I will continue to call the RPT who have acted on this case liars and scumbags.

I will continue to have admiration for those who seek the truth, bearing in mind those posting on here and doing such a thing have no reason to do so.

I will also continue to loath those who would be happy to see two innocent men put to death just so murderers can continue to make money.

[bamukloy]

Goldbuggy - you are full of fecal matter!!! I very much doubt that you have followed the case form the very first day, what in the contrary a good chunk of "official story doubters" did. You are like a carbon copy of that other brain deads back then, (JDinAsia, JohnThailandJohn) when the story was still "hot" repeating over and over again some brainless blahblah about the DNS samples not lying... Please do us the favor and get out of here so we can continue on working to find out what really happened and to make sure that no patsies will hang for what those indespicable mafia c__nts have done! Thank you!

So which side of the Fence do you sit on? Guilty or Innocent?

Look Man, there is no need for Name Calling. If you believe they are Innocent then fine. I happen to differ than you and believe they are Guilty. As you, I am entitled to my opinion. I am not part of the Legally Team as in the Lawyers, Prosecution, or a Judge. So I don't have to assume they are Innocent until they are proven guilty. I can assume anything I want. That is my right under the laws of Free Speech and this Site!

I have followed the case from front to back. Checking my early posts from many months ago will prove that. I have read all of what the Police have sent out to the media as Evidence thus far. I have read many Conspiracy Theories from several different people that these guy are scapegoats because of this or that. I have read them called Kids here, and many times Boys, and yet both are men over the age of 21. But now let me tell you what in all this time what I haven't read here.

I haven't read from anyone here even one shred of evidence, by some Link, to even suggest the 2 accused are Innocent. Not One shred even One Time! But I have read a preponderance of evidence here to suggest they are guilty.

So keep your opinion and let me keep mine, and try to be civilized.... will you?

You dont seem to have read the very first reports around the time of the murders:

1. The headmen told police he couldnt contact his son in que,didnt know where he was,hadnt seen him for weeks.etc

2. Girlfriend of the son was distraught as he had gone missing and not answering phones.this was in social media.

3 Classmates hadnt seen him on the monday either but when they did see him rumours were surfacing about how he had cuts and scratches on arms.

I havent got links but im sure others with good memory of the saga since day 1 will also remember.

Of course we arent to know which accounts are true or false but it does seem strange that the above claims seem to have vanished and replaced by a whole new version...this much the same as police doing a complete about face on who they was the main suspect,again, coincidently when the police in charge changed.

then theres the wounds on Hanna. Many conflicting stories there too

first a hoe, then a small sharp pointed instrument..even bullet wounds now reported.

This whole thing has become such a shambles that i cant imagine how any one could come up with a solid judgement, save those with ALL the evidence.

I havent got a horse in this race, but i suspect when it all comes out all will be explained as the prosecutors case was sent back repeatedly fir stregthening.

Maybe the holes in the case were followed up by more investigative policework that then prooved conclusively the Burmese are guilty.

If you were looking at a death sentance i reckon anyone would change their story several times and pretty much say anything to get out of it

[jdinasia]

The families of the victims have already made a public statement.

[Basil B]

I am assuming that when the bodies were repatriated back to the UK a second autopsy was carried out.

What may be interesting is the work of the forensic investigators back here in the UK, in particular if any DNA was found and was it the same as the Thai authorities, or if no traces of DNA were found, and their opinion as to whether it was removed to prevent the British investigators obtaining evidence, or if DNA was found could it have been planted?

It is not for the British to interfere at this time, cooperating with both prosecution and defence with evidence, yes, but any statements at this time would prejudice a fair trial, only after the conclusion of the trial could the British question the fairness or state that they believe any of the evidence to be unsound, or they believe The Thais got the wrong people.

[berybert]

The families of the victims have already made a public statement.

Startling revelation.

[GOLDBUGGY]

A New twist to this case was on the night of the Rape and Murders, two of David's British Friends apparently showed up at the same Bar at 4 am with Blood on a Guitar on bodies. Or according to the defense team. When asked they said they were in a motorbike accident. I forgot to save the Link but check the accused Lawyers Name and Google that and you will find this.

The next day, 2 guys approached one of these guys 9who he called mafia) and said they knew it was him. That if he did not confess to this crime they would kill him. He fled the island but I do not know if they got DNA from him yet. Only know they wanted some.

The other guy in the accident was Davids Best Friend. These are the 2 British Subjects the defense wants to bring back for further questioning.

Another twist is that they found a Blond Hair not belonging to Hannah in her dead hand. I don't know if it was David's. I do know it could not belong to either of the accuses.

This has become a real mystery!

What ! You mean the two people you are calling dirty murdering scum might not be dirty murdering scum ?

Don't forget about the Thai defamation laws.

Maybe you will be taking their place in a cell once it is vacated.

It is not me calling all the Police Corrupt up to the Generals, planting evidence, and calling them Liars. It is you who has done that.

So if I was you I would be the one who should be more careful.

I don't live in Thailand anymore. I have no need to be careful of what I say. One of the joys of living in the western world is you can speak the truth about things without having to worry about being sent to a camp for re-educating.

So I will continue to call the RPT who have acted on this case liars and scumbags.

I will continue to have admiration for those who seek the truth, bearing in mind those posting on here and doing such a thing have no reason to do so.

I will also continue to loath those who would be happy to see two innocent men put to death just so murderers can continue to make money.

Well, I don't know what part of the Western World you claim you come from, but the part I come from everyone is allowed Free Speech, and entitled to there own Opinion, and not put on the Rack just because they don't agree with you.

So you are not in Thailand anymore. Did you enjoy your 3 weeks visit here? How much was your Fine for not wearing your Motorcycle Helmet? Did you pay the fine at the Police Station, or was it under the table?

[jdinasia]

The families of the victims have already made a public statement.

Startling revelation.

One that hadn't been made in the first page or so of replies.

After all, nothing new is being said, just the same lines from the conspiracy theorists, and those who disagree.

Moreso it is on topic considering the original post of this thread.

[boomerangutang]

The families of the victims have already made a public statement.

One member of one of the two families has made a statement.

I am assuming that when the bodies were repatriated back to the UK a second autopsy was carried out.

What may be interesting is the work of the forensic investigators back here in the UK, in particular if any DNA was found and was it the same as the Thai authorities, or if no traces of DNA were found, and their opinion as to whether it was removed to prevent the British investigators obtaining evidence, or if DNA was found could it have been planted?

It is not for the British to interfere at this time, cooperating with both prosecution and defence with evidence, yes, but any statements at this time would prejudice a fair trial, only after the conclusion of the trial could the British question the fairness or state that they believe any of the evidence to be unsound, or they believe The Thais got the wrong people.

It's ironic that, the reason the Brit Coroner is publishing nothing, is because the B2 are facing the death penalty - though BY WITHHOLDING DATA, the Brits are unwittingly contributing to the likelihood the defendents will get executed.

[berybert]

What ! You mean the two people you are calling dirty murdering scum might not be dirty murdering scum ?

Don't forget about the Thai defamation laws.

Maybe you will be taking their place in a cell once it is vacated.

It is not me calling all the Police Corrupt up to the Generals, planting evidence, and calling them Liars. It is you who has done that.

So if I was you I would be the one who should be more careful.

I don't live in Thailand anymore. I have no need to be careful of what I say. One of the joys of living in the western world is you can speak the truth about things without having to worry about being sent to a camp for re-educating.

So I will continue to call the RPT who have acted on this case liars and scumbags.

I will continue to have admiration for those who seek the truth, bearing in mind those posting on here and doing such a thing have no reason to do so.

I will also continue to loath those who would be happy to see two innocent men put to death just so murderers can continue to make money.

Well, I don't know what part of the Western World you claim you come from, but the part I come from everyone is allowed Free Speech, and entitled to there own Opinion, and not put on the Rack just because they don't agree with you.

So you are not in Thailand anymore. Did you enjoy your 3 weeks visit here? How much was your Fine for not wearing your Motorcycle Helmet? Did you pay the fine at the Police Station, or was it under the table?

I never rode a motorbike in Thailand nor did I ever get a fine for anything. But its nice to know you put a 200 baht fine for riding without a helmet in the same league as murder.

[GOLDBUGGY]

No My Friend! It is you who is confused again and who forgot what you wrote and who you support here, and thus have it backwards again.

Because it is you who thinks that paying a Police Officer on the street for a fine for not wearing a helmet is in the same league as a Police Officer who would plant and falsify evidence to accept a bribe, arrest and accuse 2 innocent men, then beat and torture them into confessions, when all along they know who the real killers are.

[sambum]

Well, the more I read about this case the more twists and turns I seen in it.

Many of the twists and turns were fabricated by Thai officials, and also attributible to their hiding evidence, not looking for evidence, discounting evidence or simply just not thinking to look for certain things.

If Thai officials had done a remotely professional job, there would not be so much controversy swirling around. Similarly, if Brit officials would do their jobs, it would clear things up.

I agree with you in part at least that from the start they did not handle this case very well at all. I was one of the first to say here they should have stopped everyone from leaving the island as soon as they discovered the murders and secured the crime scene. Then there was all those Media Reports which seemed to come out daily and where they seemed to contradict themselves and their reports almost daily. How many times did they say they were sure they had the murders?

I may even go so far as to say that they may have discounted evidence and perhaps should have looked deeper into some things they knew about. Hell! I am in such a good mood today I may even go along with that they went over the accepted limits in obtaining the confessions. But when you talk about Fabricating Evidence, this entirely a different kettle of fish.

For one thing Fabricating Evidence is against the law and has serious consequences. If caught you would be given an automatic loss of job for life and a Mandatory Jail Sentence. That is pretty serious isn't it? I agree that Fabricating some Evidence, but not all, would be easy to do. A Police Man planting a cell phone in the accused residence would be easy enough to do. "Hey Chief!" "Look what I found!". But when you start including some very higher up Ranking Generals, and a reputable Forensic's Lab in Bangkok, and all there people working there, this is a completely different story.

I mean if they were after some Drug Lord or Gangster like Al Capone, I might believe that they would twist the truth a little bit. Maybe even plant some evidence. But for 2 poor Migrant Workers? For Heavens Sake Why? To Save Face? You and I both know that during the first few weeks of this investigation, and until the first general was replace, they lost so much credibility in this case (Face) that they could never recover from that now. That is why so many people are all still talking about these blunders today.

Now the next General could have used these first blunders to get right out of this mess and cover the part where the sun never shines, but he doesn't. He could have easily said that the all DNA Testing of everyone on the Island is complete with no DNA match. So the culprits must have left the Island and Thailand already and we have no way to prove this case. Which if those 2 British Guys have anything to do with these murders, as the defense claims, it could be close to the truth. Even if the Mafia did pay the Police off to clear there people as many here claim, then the Police could still have taken the money, cleared their people, but still said the same thing. So that just doesn't hold water as I think everyone here would agree that these Mafia Guys, if they exist, weren't trying to frame 2 Migrant Workers.

There is no losing Face in that this case could not be solved, is there? Or at least more than they lost already. After all, Scotland Yard never did catch Jack the Ripper did they? The FBI Special Task Forces never caught the Zodiac Killer either. So what is just one more unsolved case? There must be thousands out there unsolved, and I am sure quite a few in Thailand to. Sure there was media pressure to solve this case, but by telling everyone the culprits skipped town would have relieve this pressure long ago.

But in the height of all this Media Attention and Frenzy, and in the first few days of October, the Police Announce that they have found the killers and that the 2 accused are being held in custody. But instead of relieving this Media Pressure, it only added more fuel to the fire. Some Media started reporting a conspiracy theory and using terms like Scapegoats. Now this was either the craziest think I have ever read, or by far the largest of all the police blunders. I am not sure which. But by them sticking their neck out so far with this news made me think that perhaps they really do have a case here, and the murderers.

We can kick this thing back and forth and forever and never really get any farther then we are today. I am not trying to change anyone's mind here about anything. It wouldn't matter to the case even if I did. If they want to believe some Conspiracy Theory then this is fine to. But at least they should understand the consequence for doing so.

It just Bugs me to no end when people post this here but make it sound equal to stealing a Chocolate Bar in a Candy Shop and with no serious consequences. Falsifying Evidence is a very serious Criminal Offence! Is it easy to do? If anyone here really wanted to kill someone, would that not be easy to do also? Baring the President of the United States. Being easy doesn't make it plausible!

The way I see this ending is not a good one. If the Prosecution's Evidence holds up in Court, and at this moment in time I don't see many reasons why not, other than perhaps throwing out the Confessions, the Defenses is going to have a tough go proving Reasonable Doubt. Of course if the Defense can retest the DNA and find that it does not match the accused then it is a different Ball Game. But if the DNA Tests presented to the Court by the Prosecution meets the standards and guidelines as Submissible Evidence, they may not get a chance to do another Independent DNA Test.

So without this, there only hope then is a Credible Eye Witness. A Relative or a Friend of the accused won't cut it unless they can back their statement with another sources or something like that. A guy on the motorbike who claims to have seen the Rape may not be much help either, unless he saw who these people were and can identify them. With a half moon that night, which could have set during the time of the murders, and only his Motorbike Head Light for a source of light, probably from a distance, it would be easy for the Prosecution to disclaim anything he saw on that dark night.

The Defense I understand has 31 witnesses they want to bring to trail. But they are stilling looking for people to come forward if they heard or seen anything. So I believe they are still looking for a Credible Eye Witness who witnessed this crime, to come forward. With the DNA Test Results on the Prosecutors side, and other circumstantial evidence, unless the defense can counter this with their own test results, or an eye witness, their ship is sunk.

So if you were on the defense team, and if this was true, how would you handle the case? Would you fight to the bitter end and risk the Death Penalty, with hopes on more success on your appeals, or would you try to cut a deal with the Prosecution, pleading Guilty and taking the Life In Prison instead. Or if you were one of the accused would you fight or take the deal if it is offered? This is of course just pure speculation as that Prosecution may not even offer a deal.

In my view, they will either plead guilty some time after the trial starts, and get 99 years each in prison, or fight it and lose, and get the Death Penalty. Both of which doesn't look to good for them. But again, just pure speculation on my part. So I truly hope they get a fare trial and have a chance to make their case.

Congratulations! You are now starting to sound like someone who isn't prepared to accept every statement that the RTP have issued, and also agree that they made blunders right from the start, and intimate that you think that the RTP might have used illegal means to extract the confessions. Is it just your mood, or are you finally realising that there is more to this case than the official RTP line? If you hadn't put your avatar to the above post, I would have sworn that it had been posted by someone else, as the whole content is contradictory to your usual style. Anyway, well done, and I notice that you have even taken on board the fact that it is a "trial" and not a "trail" - at least in your last sentence. Now, let's start working on that other word - "fare". That is the money that you pay to a taxi driver to take you from A to B, or the choice of food in a restaurant, whereas "fair", means treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination, the colour of someone's hair, or a type of travelling entertainment with sideshows, rides, etc, esp one that visits places at the same time each year (and other similar usages) I presume that you mean without favouritism, and as you can see, that is spelt "fair". So go away and do your homework, and we'll see you tomorrow! (Sorry, I'm starting to sound like you - please ignore my last sentence!)!

[sambum]

The families of the victims have already made a public statement.

A statement that was issued by a member of one of the families, which was based on the information that they had been given by the British Police, who based that information on the evidence that they were allowed to see by the RTP.

[jdinasia]

No Boomerangutang and Sambun -

The FCO released statements from both families.

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/12/08/koh-tao-murders-accused-enter-pleas-today-victims-families-say-evidence-against-them

[stephenterry]

Which was prejudicial.

[jdinasia]

Which was prejudicial.

Nope - it might be in a jury trial in the UK.

Thailand doesn't have a jury system. Sub-judice doesn't apply.

[stephenterry]

Same effect. Designed to influence.

[sambum]

No Boomerangutang and Sambun -

The FCO released statements from both families.

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/12/08/koh-tao-murders-accused-enter-pleas-today-victims-families-say-evidence-against-them

I stand corrected - my apologies. I had forgotten that part of the style of the statements seemed remarkably similar, in that they seemed to have been written by the same person - possibly an FCO spokesman?

And I also note that you neglect to mention the fact that as I said earlier, the statements were based on the evidence that the Thai Police had allowed the British Police to see. Even one of your supporters intimates that some of this evidence may have been acquired illegally, and that some of the RTP statements that were made to the media were completely wrong, and that the investigation was conducted in a less than satisfactory manner, so statements that have been made based on incorrect or misleading information holds no credibility with me.

[boomerangutang]

Go ahead, JD, and grab on to the gist of the statement issued by a member of a family. It might give solace now, but it's near inevitable that other family members will speak their minds when the trial gets going, and it's doubtful they'll continue to be supporting the mess that the RTP have dumped on the laps of Brit experts and everyone else who believed what they dish out. The victims' families were told things by Brit officials. In Britain, officials are generally respected. In Thailand, officials have a different reputation. Thais know about their own cops, but Brit police are not expected to know about them. So, Brit officials accepted, at face value (no pun intended), what Thai officials told them in their sincerest manner, and Brit officials went on to convey that crapola to the victims' families. There will be some rude awakenings for establishmentarianists (like some of the posters in this thread) in the upcoming weeks re; this case, unless they're hell-bent on not noticing reason.

[jdinasia]

Boomerangutang - every source I find stated both families made statements. Note --- family statements.

That would make both of your claims about it being 1 person and only 1 family incorrect.

I would find this strange if you didn't oft repeat things already proven to be untrue. Such as Panya being replaced before earlier suspects were ruled out.

As far as crystal balls go. The trial will start this week. I'll let you continue gazing into it while I await the trial.

BTW - didn't you say before the UK police arrived that they knew all about the RTP?

Edited July 6, 2015 by jdinasia

[thailandchilli]

Well if the UK police didn't know about the RTP beforehand they certainly do now. For their part and their statement see below which was given some time after the statements from the families there does seem to be a little confusion as to how the families arrived at their version.

"The Metropolitan Police says there's confusion and inconsistencies in the investigation in Thailand into the murder of 2 British tourists on the island of Koh Tao. Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were killed in September. Scotland Yard, which is observing the Thai enquiry, says there are questions about the strength of the case against the 2 men from Burma charged with murder."

This was broadcast on BBC Radio 2 on the 22nd Dec 2014

[boomerangutang]

I would find this strange if you didn't oft repeat things already proven to be untrue. Such as Panya being replaced before earlier suspects were ruled out.

Panya was appearing to be the head man, in the days prior to him being jerked off the case. Here's the most plausible scenario for that: From the get-go, there was pressure to nail Burmese migrants for the crime. Unfortunately for officials (and migrants), Panya was doing his job rather well, and was following evidence which pointed to Mon and Nomsod. Still the pressure was exerted, by Bkk and the Headman and his buddies. When they caught up with Nomsod, who had been hiding, they gave him his 'get out of jail free' card. Nomsod and his lawyer could have said anything at that point, and the RTP would have gladly and quickly eliminated him as a suspect. By that time, pressure from Bkk (to indict someone) was increasing day by day.

As an aside: Thai tourism officials thought it was lack of indicting someone which would keep tourists from coming and spending their dollars. They were wrong. The dastardly murder/rape had already been done, there was no changing that. Tourists aren't so concerned about a speedy indictment. They're more likely to stay away if the island is shown to be a mafia-riven dangerous place to party - which it is. Instead of being in such a frantic hurry to indict someone, RTP should have taken a plodding professional attitude of following where the evidence leads. That's what Panya was doing, somewhat. Days before he was physically removed from heading the investigation, the cards had already been dealt by his superiors in Bangkok. The cop who outranked Panya put himself in charge. He had probably been manipulating the investigation for days leading up to the dismissal. Since then, no investigating has been done - that we know of - certainly no further investigation of Mon of Nomsod.

[thailandchilli]

I am assuming that when the bodies were repatriated back to the UK a second autopsy was carried out.

What may be interesting is the work of the forensic investigators back here in the UK, in particular if any DNA was found and was it the same as the Thai authorities, or if no traces of DNA were found, and their opinion as to whether it was removed to prevent the British investigators obtaining evidence, or if DNA was found could it have been planted?

It is not for the British to interfere at this time, cooperating with both prosecution and defence with evidence, yes, but any statements at this time would prejudice a fair trial, only after the conclusion of the trial could the British question the fairness or state that they believe any of the evidence to be unsound, or they believe The Thais got the wrong people.

Some interesting questions you ask on the DNA and whether the UK authorities were actually able to get a sample after Hannah's body was back in the UK for autopsy. I somehow doubt they did manage this due to a number of possible reasons to do with the technical aspects of an autopsy and preservation of the body before flying back to the UK, but also because one of the main areas of focus for the UK police on what turned out to be a wasted trip was to actually get independent verification of the DNA, this was also echoed by the FCO which also requested this.

Of course this never happened and hence the questions still raised and concerns still expressed by the international community and the defense team.

[AleG]

Before during and after Mon and Nomsod were prime suspects, Thai officialdom were trying frantically to pin the crime on Burmese migrants. Officials tested two groups (hundreds) of Burmese migrants and all were cleared. I repeat: it was announced by Thai officials: ALL WERE CLEARED of DNA matches.

All during that time, there was pressure from Bkk and TAT to nail some suspects, but make sure it wasn't anyone related to the Headman. This they did, and quickly. Yet, officialdom didn't expect us pesky farang to be making so much sustained noise about there being a blatant cover-up. If it was just a Thai affair, the noise would have subsided months ago. Thais are world renown for accepting official pronouncements even when they know they're bullsh!t. Farang have a pesky habit of continuing to speak up, even when officialdom requires them to hush up and move on.

This is false:

"Before during and after Mon and Nomsod were prime suspects, Thai officialdom were trying frantically to pin the crime on Burmese migrants."

Since they named UK nationals and Thais as suspects.

This is also false:

"ALL WERE CLEARED of DNA matches."

There is not a single scrap of evidence to support this claim.

Neither there's any scrap of evidence to support this one:

"All during that time, there was pressure from Bkk and TAT to nail some suspects, but make sure it wasn't anyone related to the Headman. "

So, as usual, all you do is peddle falsehoods to justify your obsession with certain people and call that seeking Truth and Justice.