Farming In Northeast Thailand

[ThaiFarmer]

Puhhh........ the more I listen to you experienced farmers out there, the more I understand how little I really understand...........

It seems to be a very complicated business to grow a couple of cucumbers or whatever!! I wonder how anyone can manage. Ever!!

I'm just a simple construction engineer and I think I will keep on growing chillies and eggplants at my backyard and leave the "big" farming to someone in the family who knows better............!!

Chok dee,

BackyardFarmer® (ex ThaiFarmer, ex Gentleman Farmer)

[plachon]

Hi Backyard (aka ex-Gentleman) Farmer,

Don't get the hump! Growing a few sweetcorn, cucumbers, chillis, asstd. eggplants, basil, asstd. gourds, papaya, tomatoes, asttd. beans, mint, lemon grass, galangal, tatties, yams, various herbs, etc., is all I do in the garden, so you're in good company! It beats busting your balls trying to make a living off hundreds of rai. I reckon anyone can be more or less self-sufficient for food, even on the most unfertile Isaan land, (so long as you've got a source of water to see you through the dry months) off about 3 -5 rai of land. anything past that is petty income with a poor return on labour, but a good return on healthy living if you reject the chemical route. But you would be living off your savings and wouldn't need the extra, so could affford to plant up the rest to long maturing hardwood trees, hire local people to tend them and which would give your children/grandchildren a nice inheritance in 30 - 50 years time when they mature!

Bina, can't download the intracen page, but IFOAM is interesting.

Some of the salf-affected land must be sodic I guess, but have never checked. Most Isaan land however, apart from little isolated pockets near limestone outcrops is acidic and apparently getting worse, according to a paper I read recently. Hence, boosting pH with lime amendments is an important part of land restoration and fertility improvement. I've noticed recently, more and more, chemical fertilisers also noting they contain Ca on the bags. On the one hand, I guess this is good, on the other, it suggests that more and more farmers are going the chemical route and are ignoring good old magic muck. The main problem is that the mnajority of farmers have now sold their cattle/buffalo to pay off debts or buy a pick-up/tractor/mobile/ VCD/etc., not realising the vital role these animals play to their future well-being. My father-in-law is no different, no matter how much I've tried to persuade him otherwise. He's now got zero animals on his farm and no money to buy fertiliser, so is a good case-study in Isaan farmer's priorities.

The future is not good i'm afraid, as the new breed of farmer who'll take their land off these small farmers, is likely to be an absentee landlord with little time or patience for landcare and ecological methods of farming.

[RamdomChances]

Hi I know i'm not in Issan,but Nakon Sawan, which I assume is a simular rural enviroment, but i think the land is more productive here. We (my wife, myself and her mum) have a dairy farm in Nakon Sawan. Contrarary to popular opinion its big buissiness her, we hav two co-operatives within 7 km of our house with a combined total of around 120 farms on their books (although most of these have only about 10 head).

I have 40 full grown milkers and about twenty calfs, and am in the process of building a new milking parlour and barns to expand to around 100 milkers. I was an aircraft engineere in my previous life so had no knowlage before hand, but we started small and learned. Opened with 10 cows as an experiment, and it worked. We currently sell about 400kg milk a day thats about 5000bht and my costs are about 50-60% work it out its a good living. Been doing this for two years now, I dont want to make out its a get rich quick thing, a cow will cost about 40000 a head you need land, barns and a milking palour, so ther is a fair investment and really you have to try and learn things for yourself.

I was lucky my wifes mum had 65 rai of prime land here which she singed over to my wife on our wedding day, ok I invested a lot of money here as well but land here sells for around 100,000 a rai, and her mum gave us a house as well (Had'nt been lived in for 7 years but is now really comfertable).

The dairy farm uses about 14 rai and the rest we grow Corn, Cow Fang(don't know what it is in english) and peanuts we can get three crops in a year here with the most cash from corn. Alternatly grow shugar cain a bit less profit and only once a year but very little work, I'm not an expert on the growing things leave that to the motherinlaw but we make about 200000 a year of it which we split. My mothering law also has a shop so she is pretty set up, she used to rent the land out but now makes more money, buy growing things, thays why she let us have it, had a lot of stuff but no cash to do anything with it, and selling land her is a last resort.

Anyway Korat is even bigger into the dairy buissinesss Chok Chai farm in Pak Chong (i think) is the biggest dairy farm in asia.

Any one wanting to know mare drop me a line

[pnustedt]

Hi - You seem to be enjoying life Random.

A friend of mine has set up a family in dairy farming in Ubon. He reckons that the "government" buys the milk at a set price and there are subsidies for purchase of the herd, etc. He also has purchased the first milking machines in the area.

I was wondering if you have the same experience. Would you mind answering: Did you receive any grants to buy the herd? do you milk by hand or machine? who buys the milk produced?

I'm also wanting our family to consider a dairy herd but there seems to be some reluctance and I'm not too sure why.

Tks for your help.

[RamdomChances]

I can' t speak for Udon, but probably hes looking to sell the milk to a local co-operative, they are goverment sponcered, it took me a yaer to work out thay I was'nt actually selling it to the goverment. There is also sometimes help with buying cows, upgrading farms ect, i thnk that comes from the goverment never quallified myself, its aimed at small farms.

If you are deamed to have the money you've got to do it you're self(usually dependant on herd size not where you come from)

We milk by machine but its only semi automatic , milking 40+cows by hand tice a day would be impossible, though my wifes uncle who lives

in korat does 15 by hand and looks like a power lifter!!most muscular thai i've seen.

They are just starting to bring in standereds and if they stick to them it could mean the end to the small local farm (8-17 head) but there are grants, (still I dont quallify).

Its a good buissiness but if you have a small herd treat it more like a hobby cos you will have lots of ups and downs.

If you are really intrested e-mail me I'll exchange phone nos maybe you can come and have a look.

[Jeff1]

It sounds like you have a nice setup, good luck to you and thanks for sharing

Jeff

[plachon]

Very interesting posting Random.

As a matter of interest, what do you do with the slurry of a 40 + cow herd, soon to be increasing to 100? Do you make biogas? That's a fair amount of polluting muck to deal with daily.

One other thing, what percentage of your feed is from on-farm resources, and how much from concentrtates and other off-farm sources? Just curious.

[RamdomChances]

As a matter of interest, what do you do with the slurry of a 40 + cow herd, soon to be increasing to 100? Do you make biogas? That's a fair amount of polluting muck to deal with daily

Sorry dont make biogas, dont know how to or what i would do with it!!

But waste is a problem at the monent the slurry just runs off into the main ditch on the side of the road, there is no main drainage here so it can't get back into the water supply. When the new farm is finnished in about 1 month it will run off onto our land and provide irrigation and fertiliser for the crops.

As for being "polluting muck" dont know really we don't use any chemical's and all the solid matter (ok cow shit) is collected, dried and sold off to local farms as fertiliser, so whats left is just water from washing the cows down prior to milking and cleaning the farm, just a mix fo cow shit and water, unpleasant yes, but i dont think that much of a bio-hazard (no dout some one will tell me different!)

In the padock (about 8 rai) we regulay skim the surface with the tractor for dried dung and then bag and sell it, obviously cant do in wet season.

The new dairy farm standerds they are trying to bring in ars very vauge on what to do with waste, eventually I may have to put sedimant tanks in, another way is to dig a big 2-4 rai fish pond and let the sediment run off into that, it promotes organic growth wigh the fish then eat.

One other thing, what percentage of your feed is from on-farm resources, and how much from concentrtates and other off-farm sources? Just curious.

The % of concentrate buy weight varied from cow to cow but on ave about 8 kg a day and around 25 kg of grass, we dont currently use any on farm resorses, for several reason's. :-

1 Scale we currently go through about 1.5 ton of grass a day, even the whole 50 rai of corn would only feed them for a few days!! and then you have to cut the stuff and feed it as well, so really, you need a shredder, used to have a machine for the back of the tractor which chopped and sredded , and go around the local farms after they had harvested the corn and harvest the remainder (usually for free) this worked up to about 20 head, but after that you need 1-2 people just driving and giving food, not cost efective.

2 Change of diet/ chemical fertilisers. When ever you chang the diet of a cow it will have an adverse effect on milk production for anything up to a week, while the cow adjusts to its new diet. Also you dont know what fertilisers have been used.

3 Composition of food We give our cows fresh grass, which we collect every other day, all cut and bailed, we also sell this to other local farms which offsets the collection costs, the variaty of grass we feed is high in protine about 12%and high in vitimine and minerals, so you can reduce the intake of concentrates (which are expensive), but by giving a consistent and good diet the increase of milk production pays for it.

We have'nt had a crop of peanuts yet but will have this year, after they have been harvested the remains will be dryed and used to supplement the cow diet, Peanut-hay is about the best stuff to give them, most people give rich hay wich has the nutritional contebt of a cardboard box, but is cheap, keeps well and provides good fiber.

Would love to grow my own grass but my lands not sutible, I'm on a slope, you need rice paddys to grow the grass. as it is grown very much the same, flooding the land first, later i might flaten our land into smalled fields to do this, but thats an other project for an other day, concentrating on geting the new farm finnished before rainy season proper, and this time i'm building it on the top of the slope!!!

Hope that answers everything, as you can imagine not have much to do today !!

[plachon]

Thanks for your full and interesting answer Random. Was interested about the waste dilemma, as it is something that is always a problem with large intensive livestock farms wherever in the world. In European countries there are very strict guidelines and farmers are regularly fined for breaking them. I've seen and read about numerous rivers wiped out by "accidental" leakages of farm slurry into water courses in UK., and I see the same problems occurring here now without the regulatory framework in place to avoid it.

Pollution may either be acute (bloody obvious when fish start keeling over in the local river) or chronic (gradual and harder to spot, unless one happens to have known the area for years). In your dairy's case, although the slurry may not be directly reaching a local watercourse, (apart from in heavy rainfall events?) I suspect it will be leaching down into the water table and polluting that with nitrates and nitrites. It may eventually be reaching nearby streams and rivers underground, causing a degree of eutrophication (over fertilization). Your suggestion of fish ponds could be a sound one, where the waste is recycled back into protein (via primary production first) from fish (= extra income and profit for the farm). On-farm recycling would reduce your ecological footprint no end!

The other main present source of pollution of your farm will be volatalization of nitrous gases into the atmosphere and methane production from the cows themselves. Can't stop the latter farting, but can reduce/ avoid the former by building a biogas digestor on the farm. An extra expense, but can pay for itself eventually through production of methane gas for heating (little need in Thailand!) , lighting and cooking. Have seen them in action at several sites years ago, but not recently. So did a Google search of "biogas, thailand" and came up with 11,800 sites!! So, no shortage of reference material, but the problem is sorting the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Might be better to start at your local, provincial alternative energy office/site, which probably has a demonstration biogas digestor working. They'll also give an indication of costs and will probably be able to give locations of other sites. Worth a try if you're interested....

On feeds, have you thought about making silage from the corn or possibly sorghum(kao fang)? I'm no expert on cattle feeds, but this would seem a sensible way of reducing off-farm expenses and utilising on-farm resources more efficiently? However, I appreciate the limtiations and your reasons for using the off-farm convenient ready bailed grass (what variety is it?). How much does a bag of dairy concentrate cost these days, and if the price of milk wasn't subsidised by govt, would this effect the profitability of the operation greatly?

Anyway, good luck and hope the upgrade goes well.

[Jeff1]

Interesting reading gentlemen, Pollution is a big concern, so is a enexpensive product and a profit. Somewhere there is a happy medium...one hope's

I too am very interested in biogas ( that sounds weird ) but im trying to learn , it is a bit overwhelming when your a beginner. I know I will have to use the system myself but is it worth it ? without losing the ...ahem, farm. Thanks to you all for your ideas . I have already learned 10 times more than I knew before your posts.

Thanks,

Jeff

[RamdomChances]

Hi thanks for the intrest

large intensive livestock farms ed

Well I would'nt call myself that large 70 head inc calfs, as as for intensive our cows are'nt crouped up in small pens or kept inside for a large part of the year.

They have a large padock of about 7 rai with ample shade and water,are fed on mostly organic products and are not injected with any growth improvers or hormons (but if any one knows where i can get some let me know ).

directly reaching a local watercourse, (apart from in heavy rainfall events?) I suspect it will be leaching down into the water table and polluting that with nitrates and nitrites

Personnaly I dout it as there are no water courses, as for leaching into the water table its possible, but to be honest 9 months of the year 90% of our waste evaperates (thats probably bad as well??). We have our own bore the water table is about 60meters down, dont know if this makes a differance, and when you think that there are no main drains here every house has its own septic tank these have open bottoms allowing all the liquid waste to drain into the soil, you multiple that buy all the houses!!, also animal waste is used extensively as a fertilliser here mostly chicken shit but cow as well, this is spread before the rains to let it wash into the soil, surely this is better than synthetic fertiliser, or would you advocate no using any.

and methane production from the cows themselves

Ok the biogas thing is worth looking into, but I dont really think it would be ecomomically feasable for me, the only use i'd get from it would possably be cooking, as for my"local, provincial alternative energy office/site" have we got one, would be supprised, would they have a "demonstration biogas digestor" if they did you would have to pick me up off the floor.

Anyway the way I see it i'm not having any positive effest on "volatalization of nitrous gases into the atmosphere" as i have'nt created and cows mearly relocated them, even the calfs would have been born but some where else, what about the herds of wilderbeast would killing some of them off help ? was this why the american's slaughtered the bison ? (sorry a bit facitious, could'nt help it)

making silage from the corn or possibly sorghum(kao fang

Done the corn silage before, its still about scale, we use about a ton and a half a day, I'd have to cut the corn, shred it, store it, and then transportit to the cows for feeding. thats 45 ton a month, also what are thee enviromental impacts with making silage, basicaly you rot it without an air supply, does thin not give off gas, and the liquid waste has to drain away some where. The cow fang bit is interesting there is a posibllity, that if I used the whole plant to make silage and then giving it as a suplement not a staple.

All the rest, the grass we give is called Pangular (prob spelt wrong only ever heard it called that in thai never seen it writen down) it got about 12 % protien corn silage 8-10% cost me 55 satang a kg

We but our concentrate straight from the factory, send the lorry down once or twice a month we use a brand called Thunder thais pronounce it Tander, based in Nakon Nayok, concentrate costs any where from 150-200+ bht a 30kg bag, there is also CP and Thai feed Mills Group (Pure Pride) both in Saraburi Tander is the cheapest, anyone know any others please let me know. Used to make my own ( before you ask - Scale)and many small farmers here still do, there would be good buisiness opertunities for some one doing that sort of thing small sacle food and silage production all the Raw materials are grown fairly localy, and you can by small scale food pellet making machines (dont know how much), get your self a lorrry for bulk raw material pickups and deliveries, and as long as you're in the righ area away to go, Thought of it myself, maybe after the new farms finished, built my fish farm, converted my land to grow grass, and bought a biogas digestor I'll give it a go

Does the goverment subsadise milk, dont honestly know, we get 11.35 bht a kg from the local co-operative they sell it straight to Mali (manily condensed milk).

If anyone is really interested or is thinking about setting any sort of farm you, drop me a line and you can come up and have a look, maybe stay a few days (dont expect the ritz though I dont live in a purpose built Falang house but a converted Thai one, but it comftable, hot water electricity,fans, no air though exept in my bedroom). I dont propose to be an expert on all types of farming but have friend who are into everything, we also deliver chicken feed so know lots of people in that as well.

[wjta]

The comment about water is key. I (my wife, that is) has 20 acres (about 50 rai) in Bang Krathum, near Plok, but we have never been able to do anything with it. The wells keep going dry, or people steal the pumps, or the pumps burn out, etc. etc.

If you have land on a canal with reliable clean water that you can get out with one of those big blue pipes and a small tractor, it would be a lot more fun than drilling one well after another trying to get water from 30 meters deep.

And bars on the windows didn't help us. The speed freaks came in through the roof. Next time I build a house in Thailand, it will be inside a really nice, tall fence with a good alarm system and 24x7 security.

I'd like to start a plant nursery in Thailand. There aren't that many places that provide any real variety. There are a lot of things that aren't commonly grown that would be worth a try, and it would be fun (maybe not that profitable) to give people a hand. Things like cherimoyas and hybrid Hawain plumerias.

I'm littering the whole site with my idea that going it alone is too much work. What is so bad about cooperation, anyway? Somebody told me I should watch the "Beach" as a warning against trying to create a utopia in LOS. I'm personally more frightened by the movie "Mosquito Coast."

I'm hoping to find a balance between being the only farang in the whole Amphoe and trying to live in a poverty-stricken hippie commune in Koh Pipi with a bunch of escapist backpackers. But I realize that Thailand is a land of extremes.

[kwangandjo]

I guess that you are well aware that farming is not a permitted occupation for any alien. It may pay to keep your mouth shut.

I thought it is not permitted as an investment for aliens. But if you have no more than 49% interest in it and the other 51% is in your Thai wife's name, it might be different or am I wrong. Then it is no longer seen as an alien investment. There are obviously alien farmers whose wives run their farms officially. So it comes down to making a good agreement with your wife and put it on paper with help of a notary just in case of... . Maybe I am totally wrong. I am very interested to hear more on legal issues when you would like to start a farn in Thailand with your Thai wife.

[tatom]

I could use a little help here, please. I have a small place in Khon Kaen, 6 rai. After seeing the ungodly amount of pesticides used by all farmers here, I dont want to eat anything I dont grow myself. For 8 years we are growing just enough for the 2 of us. I use compost for fertilizer and laundry water for pesticide. We still have lots of bugs, but they dont eat that much and as we arnt selling any produce, it doesnt matter that there is some damage. We dont have any problem with the fruit trees, but do with vegetables. Can anyone tell me where I can buy carrot seed? Also, we have access to chicken manure, but root crops dont do well in a nitrogen rich soil. Any suggestions? I would like to try using lime. Where can I buy it and what is the Thai word? Would lime be good on the trees also? I cant grow cucumbers. I notice the Thais can but it seems they require huge amounts of chemicals, any suggestions? How do I make a solution using sadao leaves? Sorry to ramble on so, please bear with me. The farming is going ok, I just want to improve things so, any help will be appreciated. Tom Salarak Khon Kaen

[bina]

For all the organically interested:

two sites:

http://ebfarm.com/news-world/ThaiFertilizer.html

www.solutions-site.org: Welcome to the HORIZON Solutions Site

The Solutions Site was created by HORIZON International, in collaboration with the United Nations Environment Programme, the United Nations Development Programme, the United Nations Population Fund, UNICEF, HORIZON's colleagues at Harvard University, Yale University, and the International Development Research Centre (IDRC) of Canada.

The purpose of the site is to provide a forum for the presentation of solutions to vital concerns in the areas of health, population, development and the environment. Initatives are gathered through a number of different means, including direct user submissions, the substantial efforts of partner institutions, and HORIZON's own research activities.

Each case study is reviewed by one or more members of the HORIZON Scientific Review Board prior to its publication.

By presenting the case studies on the Internet, the Solutions Site provides the means to encourage replication of the initiatives presented, and to foster the development of new ones.

this site had a great article about organic farming in thailand; at the bottom they had this address:

Sununtar Setboonsarng and Jonathan Gilman

Asian Institute of Technology

School of Environment Resources and Development

P.O.Box 4, Klong Luang, Pathumthani 12120, Thailand

Tel: (66-2)524 5474

Fax: (66-2) 524 6200

E-mail: [email protected]

Information Date: 1999-01-01

Information Source: School of Environment Resources and Development

[mango head]

Sorry to ramble on so, please bear with me. Tom Salarak Khon Kaen

please don't feel as if you are rambling, this is exactly how i wanted to see this thread go. people asking questions, and getting good answers from the more experienced. i myself have learned much here and i hope all the good p[eople who have posted here will continue to do so. that's what this thread is all about, asking questions and getting quality answers. thanks much to all who have posted here.

chok dee

mango head

[bina]

question for the milk cow people:

what kind of vaccines if any are you required to do i.e. brucellosis, hoof and mouth, etc;

what about tuberculosis testing of herd for milk sale?

are these vaccines gov't sponsored?

what breed of cow produces milk (they all produce milk obviously) for commercial use? the red hump backed cow i saw in thailand, is that for meat milk or both?

what about speciality milks? (the jamoos or euro water buffalo gives milk for mozarella and the milk costs a fortune);

the only 'veterinarians' i met were people like me who know how to inject medication for usual common problems, but none of them were vets, just experienced (or quack) animal husbandry people.

[RamdomChances]

what kind of vaccines if any are you required to do i.e. brucellosis, hoof and mouth, etc;

The only vaccination thet we are required do is for foot and mouth, every 6 months, also a blood check is carried out every six months. I am not aware of any requirment on "notifiable desieses" or for that matter if the local "vets" would be able to spot one! Oh yes I assume that the vaccine is gov sponsored cos its free!!.

what breed of cow produces milk (they all produce milk obviously) for commercial use? the red hump backed cow i saw in thailand, is that for meat milk or both?

The browny/red cows that you usually see are Brahaman crosses (I think) and are for beef, they dont produce very much milk, it just for rearing the calfs. the most comman breed is a Hersian Freasion cross (ie with a bit of Brhaman(thai)), but you get all sorts, jearsy, charelay, all crosses, I've even got some that we're origanally imported from New Zeland, the reasosn for the crossing is that pure bred Hersion Fresions (whitch are the best milkers) dont cope well with the heat and humidity and are very prone to illness and suceptable to the numeraous pariste's here. You can buy imported bull semen to improve you blood line, but due to the low conseption rates here, it gets to be a bit expensive and there is not much point having a cow that will produce 30Kg milk a day pluss if you cant get it pregnate again, its ill all the time or even worst die's. Oh just for info, there are a few farms here now rearing charolay cattle(dont know how to spell it) for beef production, I'm told that you can get a very good price when you sell them. As for speciality milk, dont really know, you would have to find a market for it, although I've heard that the Pizza Company makes its own mozarella here in thailand.

the only 'veterinarians' i met were people like me who know how to inject medication for usual common problems, but none of them were vets, just experienced (or quack) animal husbandry people.

There are "vets" here, the level of competance varies from piss poor to bearly acceptable, the nearest one to me that is any good is in Pitsanuluk, 150km away. we also take students studying to be vets for work experiance on the farm, but there should be gov employed vets in every ampour, with a main office in the jangwat (the Nakon Sawan one is'nt up to much), there are also regeonal offices mine's in Pitsanuluk, where you should fine technicely very good vets but lacking in real world experiance. There are also what I term "para vets" trained in specific things like giving injections, artificall insemination, that sort of thing, often these are actually better that the "vet's", usually they have thier own farms and a lot of experiance, the one here is exelent and is allways ready to help out, often for free, but then his sister and brother-in-law do work for me, also my wifes cousin (describes 95% of village) is the local vet (real vet) and lives about 300m away. Usually minor things, injections and assisting calfing (unless breached) I do myself.

question for the milk cow people

I think I'm the only "milk cow people here" but would love to here from others if there are any??

[kwangandjo]

QUOTE

question for the milk cow people

I think I'm the only "milk cow people here" but would love to here from others if there are any??

I am also very interested to hear if there are any more dairy farmers here in Thailand. And I don't mean the hobby farmer but the one who wants to make a nice profit out of it.

[mickdundee]

I have just returned from the north east, wanon niwat, north east fo Sahkon Nahkon, bought some land, and bought a house with some land. This is with a view to setting up some kind of business in the future. The house in the town was bought with tenants already in at a very reasonable price after a wee bit of haggling. The other bit of land outside of town in a small village over 1 rai with excellent views. Go back up at christmas to start building on the land in the village, and live in outr house in the town. Looking at various things that may or could generate income, there is another farang in the area who lives with his wife and manages to sell the clay water butts, always wondered how they make them?

[Pseacraft]

This is a great thread. Thanks to all. I am fixing to get started on researching all of the things the wife and I will need to do to get some sort of "hobby" farm running on our land near Nong Song Hong (just south of Nong Khai). Her brother use to manage a large Dairy setup near Udon and now has his own herd growing. I am amazed at the number of animals that everyone is running on such small land area. Being a country boy from Oklahoma I am use to much larger requirements for the cattle - we ran 150 production Holsteins on 360 acres of pasture land and farmed another 160 acres for grains. The wife's brother is running 12 milkers and 8 calves on just 5 Rai, mind boggeling to me. He suppliments them with some "rice mash" during milking and feeds only rice straw during the day. Explains why the animals here are so thin.

I'm thinking of just growing a high quality grass like bermuda for hay on our 21+ Rai and acquiring more land for that purpose. But that's going to be down the road a tad bit - still have to re-terrace the land to make it more suitible for something other than rice.

Keep supplying your inputs and websites to explore. I need to learn alot about how things are "done" here versus the great plains.

Eric

[bina]

1. there's no problem with brucellosis (malta fever) in thailand??

2. hoof and mouth is done once a year here for goats sheep, alpacas, camels etc

3. cow pox?

4. tuberculosis (israel has no problem but STATES do)

5. rabies

these are all national requirements but very very cheap and worth it; a few years a go someone bought a goat who they discovered after she miscarried that she had brucellosis, to the same farm as a cow dairy, and the gov't ordered thousounds of dollars worth of dairy cattle to be slaughtered.

what about feeding peanut hay; goats give good results with that plus high protein grain feed or pellets and no pasture'

our cows have never seen a pasture in their lives; they get alfalfa hay, wheat hay cow pellets, silage, whey water and the heat doesnt seem to bother them; i dont kno what breed they are (black and white) but one bull in israel named 'pas' is a much in demand sperm provider in europe if you have the money for it...

they are milked three times in 24 hour cycle (automated)

charleigh are the blond cows with the horns but they are beef mostly no?

goats dogs and donkeys are my thing not cows, but as a farmer i spent more time looking at livestock and farms than toursits sites ; all my photos are of cows, fields, plants buffalo and chickens... not a wat in site

curious to know: a water buffalo that doesnt roam and graze, how much hay etc does it need a day (not working for a living either) i/e a water buffallo in a petting zoo; can it deal with cold down to about 1 centigrade ? our winters arent hard but february can be cold.

since the avian flue scandal was at its height when i was visiting (didnt stop me from eating eggs or chickens just paid attention to wash hands a lot) i was very curious about vet. med in issan (saw possibly rabid dog here and there also)...

[plachon]

Hi thanks for the intrest

large intensive livestock farms ed

Well I would'nt call myself that large 70 head inc calfs, as as for intensive our cows are'nt crouped up in small pens or kept inside for a large part of the year.

They have a large padock of about 7 rai with ample shade and water,are fed on mostly organic products and are not injected with any growth improvers or hormons (but if any one knows where i can get some let me know ).

directly reaching a local watercourse, (apart from in heavy rainfall events?) I suspect it will be leaching down into the water table and polluting that with nitrates and nitrites

Personnaly I dout it as there are no water courses, as for leaching into the water table its possible, but to be honest 9 months of the year 90% of our waste evaperates (thats probably bad as well??). We have our own bore the water table is about 60meters down, dont know if this makes a differance, and when you think that there are no main drains here every house has its own septic tank these have open bottoms allowing all the liquid waste to drain into the soil, you multiple that buy all the houses!!, also animal waste is used extensively as a fertilliser here mostly chicken shit but cow as well, this is spread before the rains to let it wash into the soil, surely this is better than synthetic fertiliser, or would you advocate no using any.

and methane production from the cows themselves

Ok the biogas thing is worth looking into, but I dont really think it would be ecomomically feasable for me, the only use i'd get from it would possably be cooking, as for my"local, provincial alternative energy office/site" have we got one, would be supprised, would they have a "demonstration biogas digestor" if they did you would have to pick me up off the floor.

Anyway the way I see it i'm not having any positive effest on "volatalization of nitrous gases into the atmosphere" as i have'nt created and cows mearly relocated them, even the calfs would have been born but some where else, what about the herds of wilderbeast would killing some of them off help ? was this why the american's slaughtered the bison ? (sorry a bit facitious, could'nt help it)

making silage from the corn or possibly sorghum(kao fang

Done the corn silage before, its still about scale, we use about a ton and a half a day, I'd have to cut the corn, shred it, store it, and then transportit to the cows for feeding. thats 45 ton a month, also what are thee enviromental impacts with making silage, basicaly you rot it without an air supply, does thin not give off gas, and the liquid waste has to drain away some where. The cow fang bit is interesting there is a posibllity, that if I used the whole plant to make silage and then giving it as a suplement not a staple.

All the rest, the grass we give is called Pangular (prob spelt wrong only ever heard it called that in thai never seen it writen down) it got about 12 % protien corn silage 8-10% cost me 55 satang a kg

We but our concentrate straight from the factory, send the lorry down once or twice a month we use a brand called Thunder thais pronounce it Tander, based in Nakon Nayok, concentrate costs any where from 150-200+ bht a 30kg bag, there is also CP and Thai feed Mills Group (Pure Pride) both in Saraburi Tander is the cheapest, anyone know any others please let me know. Used to make my own ( before you ask - Scale)and many small farmers here still do, there would be good buisiness opertunities for some one doing that sort of thing small sacle food and silage production all the Raw materials are grown fairly localy, and you can by small scale food pellet making machines (dont know how much), get your self a lorrry for bulk raw material pickups and deliveries, and as long as you're in the righ area away to go, Thought of it myself, maybe after the new farms finished, built my fish farm, converted my land to grow grass, and bought a biogas digestor I'll give it a go

Does the goverment subsadise milk, dont honestly know, we get 11.35 bht a kg from the local co-operative they sell it straight to Mali (manily condensed milk).

If anyone is really interested or is thinking about setting any sort of farm you, drop me a line and you can come up and have a look, maybe stay a few days (dont expect the ritz though I dont live in a purpose built Falang house but a converted Thai one, but it comftable, hot water electricity,fans, no air though exept in my bedroom). I dont propose to be an expert on all types of farming but have friend who are into everything, we also deliver chicken feed so know lots of people in that as well.

Just been away for a couple of weeks so only just got a chance to look over your post Random.

I think a lot of the issues about what makes a "sustainable" farm via a vis purely a maximum economic return business, revolve around balancing the needs to make a reasonable income from one's investment and the external costs (often hidden), that one puts on the environment by ones operation. I'm not in the least condemning or denigrating your operation because I think you're pretty well-tuned to some of the dangers that can exist from stepping up the scale of production on a limited piece of land and then relying more on external resources for profitability. But the fact remains that any piece of land does have a "carrying capacity" for the amount of livestock of any type that it can support and this varies with the animal type and breed. The agroecological characteristics of the land will determine this level and the same is true for us humans too. A little country like Holland, for example, now has an "ecological footprint", 17 times bigger than it's actual size. This means, to keep the Dutch at their present level of consumption and standard of living, 17 Hollands are needed! Similarly, your farm's ecological footprint is now far bigger than it's actual area, not only in consumption of external resources, but also in externalising the environmental pollution produced by the herd of dairy cattle (extremely specialised animals bred by societies like the Dutch (Friesian Islands) over centuries in a temperate climate and not ideally suited to the tropical environment of Thailand).

However, the fact remains that they are here thanks to massive govt. support and subsidies (the Dutch can still produce milk cheaper than the Thais, but then they're subsidies by EU too!) over the last 25 years and there is a domestic dairy industry artificially created in a non-dairy consumption society. Such is the power of politics and globalisation! It is therefore important not to lose sight of the past or the future, in moving towards a more environmentally form of farming. In the case of the tropics, this means more internalisation of resources and release of pollutants. Hence, those "90 %" (the exact figure is proibably unimporant) of wastes currently being evaporated into the atmosphere as methane and nitrous gases (both greenhouse pollutants) could be reduced considerably by the use of a biogas digestor. The fact that you're considering now the potential costs and benefits is great. The info is out there with a bit of time spent for searching. I saw on the google search I did that there is a demo site for biogas funded by FAO at a Pitsanolok abbattoir. However, I feel certain there are bound to be some closer sites to Nakhon Sawan than that. THe German development organisation (GTZ) have been particularly active in supporting biogas in Thailand, so they might be worth contacting for info of methods, costs and existing sites.

Anyway, sorry if this is a bit long-winded and good luck with lowering your "footprint" on the earth.

[plachon]

I could use a little help here, please. I have a small place in Khon Kaen, 6 rai. After seeing the ungodly amount of pesticides used by all farmers here, I dont want to eat anything I dont grow myself. For 8 years we are growing just enough for the 2 of us. I use compost for fertilizer and laundry water for pesticide. We still have lots of bugs, but they dont eat that much and as we arnt selling any produce, it doesnt matter that there is some damage. We dont have any problem with the fruit trees, but do with vegetables. Can anyone tell me where I can buy carrot seed? Also, we have access to chicken manure, but root crops dont do well in a nitrogen rich soil. Any suggestions? I would like to try using lime. Where can I buy it and what is the Thai word? Would lime be good on the trees also? I cant grow cucumbers. I notice the Thais can but it seems they require huge amounts of chemicals, any suggestions? How do I make a solution using sadao leaves? Sorry to ramble on so, please bear with me. The farming is going ok, I just want to improve things so, any help will be appreciated. Tom Salarak Khon Kaen

Hi Tatom. Good to know there's other people out there worried about what's gone on the veggies one buys in the market. Most people would probably be scared shitless if they knew the amount of dirty dozen pesticides poured on their food each year in Thailand. So being able to grow most of your own food is admirable, especially if you can manage it in the rainy season, when leafy vegetables (and tomatoes) seem to be an impossibility to grow in Isaan, bar good old pak boong (morning glory). Luckily there are lots of semi-wild vines and creepers about a sgood alternatives (e.g. pak dam leung).

Interested to read you pour laundry water on your veggies (or is it only the fruit trees?). Apart from the nitrates and phosphates (bang goes the organic side!), There are a lot of trace chemicals (like the scents and condtitioners), which can't be too healthy. I'd be a bit cautious therefore using it on anything that was going to be eaten directly, but maybe you use "Super Green" washing powders/detergents?

As for carrot seed, it is available in most of the bigger seed outlets in Khon Kaen (try around the ordinary bus station) and there are one or two varieties. Don't even consider planting until after the rainy season and they prefer very light, free-draining soil, so clays are out. Also, go easy on the compost/manure or they'll sprout unsightly side roots and not get the one long tap root you want. Let us know if you have success next dry season! Lime is available in any builders merchant shops and some agricultural merchants at 2-5 baht / kg. It's good stuff for most Isaan soils so be liberal with it all over your land - fruit trees, the lot!

Yes, I've never had much success with cucumbers either, but maybe regular doses of neem extract would work in deterring the bugs. Again, it can be bought in the agricultural supply shops around the bus station, particulalry one on the far corner (nearest sala glang) which seems to support alternative pesticides. If you want to make your own neem extract, leaves work to a ceertain extent I believe, but there is far more of the active ingredient (azadirachtin or summat like that?) in the seeds, and they're quite a hassle to collect, dry and grind, unless you've got loads of time on your hands!

Good luck!

[tatom]

Plachon, Thanks for the reply and info. It always gets me when I hear people say how healthy Thai food is because of so much fruit and vegetables. It would be true without the poison. We arnt 100% organic. There are times we use karate insectiside on the trees, but never when there is fruit. The same with the laundry water. I try to teach neighbors about composting, but you know how they like to burn everything. After the rice harvest, I take my wagon and try to get all the piles of hay (fang) before they burn it all. We go to the agricultual fair every year at KKU, but there isnt much on organic farming there. Ill try near the bus station.

I know what you mean about phak boong, we eat alot of that stuff. Pumpkin (<deleted> tong) is easy to grow also. I bought a blender at Big C and everyday I pick a young coconut and put the juice in the blender then add whatever we have, banana, papaya, mango, etc. and let it rip! Sure is good. By the way, the compost pile is a good place to plant. The squash, tomatoes etc, creep up on the pile and stay dry.

Our nephew gave us some wild chickens (gai paa). They breed faster than we can eat them. They sleep in the trees and take care of themselves, we just give them water and leftovers. They lay lots of eggs, but we have to hunt for them, they are in flower pots, trees, everywhere.

I think small scale farming is the way to go. Its fun, easy and healthy. Thanks again, Tom Salarak

[mango head]

We go to the agricultual fair every year at KKU,

Can you please tell me when they have this? Thanks!

[plachon]

We go to the agricultual fair every year at KKU,

Can you please tell me when they have this? Thanks!

Usually about the last week in January each year. This year it nicely coincided with the KK Marathon where several thousand people bust a gut round the city, including myself. The Ag Fair makes a good day out, and there were some good displays and great food on sale. Make a note of it for next year and enjoy.

[plachon]

Plachon, Thanks for the reply and info. It always gets me when I hear people say how healthy Thai food is because of so much fruit and vegetables. It would be true without the poison. We arnt 100% organic. There are times we use karate insectiside on the trees, but never when there is fruit. The same with the laundry water. I try to teach neighbors about composting, but you know how they like to burn everything. After the rice harvest, I take my wagon and try to get all the piles of hay (fang) before they burn it all. We go to the agricultual fair every year at KKU, but there isnt much on organic farming there. Ill try near the bus station.

I know what you mean about phak boong, we eat alot of that stuff. Pumpkin (<deleted> tong) is easy to grow also. I bought a blender at Big C and everyday I pick a young coconut and put the juice in the blender then add whatever we have, banana, papaya, mango, etc. and let it rip! Sure is good. By the way, the compost pile is a good place to plant. The squash, tomatoes etc, creep up on the pile and stay dry.

Our nephew gave us some wild chickens (gai paa). They breed faster than we can eat them. They sleep in the trees and take care of themselves, we just give them water and leftovers. They lay lots of eggs, but we have to hunt for them, they are in flower pots, trees, everywhere.

I think small scale farming is the way to go. Its fun, easy and healthy. Thanks again, Tom Salarak

Yep, unfortunately you're spot on about the gulf between the perceived healthiness of a Thai diet and the reality. IF, consumer awareness could be raised, then a few more people might start demanding to know where their food has come from and what has been poured on it, but until that happens, eating the nicest looking stuff in the market, is more of a risk that eating the mangy caterpillar-gnawed veggies I reckon. Of course, home growing is the safest and healthiest alternative, as at least you know exactly what crap has gone on your food.

Apart from fruit smoothies another good way of using up excess fruit, when it's in season, especially mangoes, pineapples and bananas, is fermented fruit juice. It's a kind of EM juice and tastes great. What I do is get a hai (clay jar) and shove in layers of rough chopped fruit sandwiched between layers of sprinkled soft brown sugar, until the jar is nearly to the top. Use a ratio of 1kg sugar : 1 kg fruit, and cover top tightly then leave for a month. After that, open it up, pour off and decant the thick brown juice into sterilised bottles and it'll store for months. Drink like fruit cordial, diluting a little with lots of water. Great for energy on a hot day. (far better than lucozade) and the crystallized fruit can either be sundried and eaten as a snack or thrown on your compost heap, if you want the benefits of those little EM beasties.

It's amazing what comes up in compost heaps, eh? I always reckon that the tomato seedlings you get off the compost are far better than anything you get in any packet, and you have the added excitement of wondering what variety it's gonna be! It's interesting that all that heat and bacterial activity doesn't kill them, but sparks their germination. We had some great toms last cool season like this.

Hope you find the carrot seed & lime ok.

[RamdomChances]

Hi every one, have'nt looked in for a while, so this could be a long one!!

The wife's brother is running 12 milkers and 8 calves on just 5 Rai, mind boggeling to me. He suppliments them with some "rice mash" during milking and feeds only rice straw during the day. Explains why the animals here are so thin.

They dont really put cattle out to grase here for a few reasons, usually in the day time its too hot for the cattle to be walking about in the open, hot season not a lot grows, cold season dry, wet season wet and muddy but everything grows at a tremendous rate, including all the parisite carrying insects that live in wet grass!!( a big prob here)

Most farms with the land will grow a cash crop and use the residue for feeding the cattle, as I'v said before "rice hay" is a bit like giving carboard to eat, but it does have a high fiber content, is cheap and keeps well. 12 milkers and 8 calves on 5 rai is very good here. Do you know what exactly is "rice mash" a lot of farmers mix their own food, which can consist of Man (forgot the english, but its like a big long potato, sure some one can tell me whay it is) Lamb, which is a bye product left over when they de-husk rice, Gat Beer (Beer cuttings) bye product from making beer, and a variety of dtua (nuts/beans, soy mung black ect). There are loads more depending on local avalibility and cost, never actually seen rice used though.

The Idea for growing grass is good and can be quite profitable, but a few things for you to think about, grass needs a great deal of water to grow here, if you are gowing to let catttle grase the land you have to thing about, mud, damp getting the cattle there and back, no control of the quantiy of grass eaten, my cows would prob eat about 2X the ammount of grass we give them if they could!!

If you want to cut it and bail it you are talking 4-600000 bht for a bailer, and about a mill for a tractor powerful enought to pull it, pluss staff to drive collect ect 1 rai produces about 2-300 bails of grass every 45 days which can be sold for about 15-17 bht a bail thats about 3000/rai/month which is good money, the set up costs in equipment/land development(unless your land is already rice fields) are quite high and the cuting bailing is quite labour intensive. You need an all year supply of water, but you dont have to re-plant.

Most places that I know that sell grass, form co-ops and are gov aid'ed (in terms of equipment), went to see a possible new supplier yesterday in Singburi (not Issan) good set up with around 2000 rai growing. Basicaly the gov supplies the machinery, which is then rented to the individual owners of the land, and as its a co-op there are usually lots of people to help. Mabye worth looking into if such schemes exist where you intend to live.

[RamdomChances]

1. there's no problem with brucellosis (malta fever) in thailand??

Our cow are checked for brucellosis and TB twice a year, never had any prob, and never heard of any one else having one either.

Foot and mouth we vacinate 2 a year, there is F n M in thailand and have heared of a few cases, some not that far away ( it does not involve the wholesale slaughter of the cattle though)

Cow Pox,rabies never heard of any probs.

Peanut hay is about the best thing to feed, but expensive if you have to buy it!!

charleigh are the blonde/white cows and are mainly beef, but you can milk them as well.

goats dogs and donkeys are my thing not cows

What you do in your own time is your buisiness, i'm open minded!!

Water Buffalo I would think would eat about 30kg grass a day but only guessing, dont know about the rest. As for Vets i've writen a bit on that before on this thread.