Farming In Northeast Thailand

[RamdomChances]

good luck with lowering your "footprint" on the earth.

Ah plachon my tree hugging friend , nice to see your back.

I think you're pretty well-tuned to some of the dangers that can exist from stepping up the scale of production on a limited piece of land and then relying more on external resources for profitability

Thanks, but to be honest thats prob because this is a buissiness for me and cutting out the middle man (especially when they are unreliable) just maximises my profits and ensures a regular supply.

I dont really accept that my farm's foot print is bigger, but hopfully in the future that will change.

I'll explain we have 65 rai, about 12 of that is given over to cattle, which I dont think exeeds my "carrying capacity" the rest of the land 50 odd rai. I could prob grow enought grass and feed if it was the right type of land, so although I am reliying on external resorses, theoreticaly if a farmer was useing his land to grow say corn, but it was sutible for grass we could swap, the point that I'm badly trying to make is that I could be vertually self sufficent.

The reason that I say that hopefully that will change is that from an ecomomic point of view, growing "crops" is not a very efficent way of maximising your profits from the land, but it have the advantage of requiring very little initial investment. I think that we will eventually peak out at about 120 milkers, with around the same number of calves. The Idea being that when you reach a comftable number of milkers you breed your calfs, and start selling cattle as well, obviously starting with the dross, therbye raising the quality of your heard. Its wortt bearing that in mind if any of you want to buy livestock always ask why they are selling, espesially milkers (if they are good why get rid of them). If they are average or have some problem thats OK if the price reflects that.

extremely specialised animals bred by societies like the Dutch

We try our best to de-specialise them, a pure bread Friesian is'nt much use here all are crossed to a certian degree, ever been to Chok Chai I always to mean to go and have a look, wounder what they have there, would'nt supprise me it they where 100% Friesian.

However, the fact remains that they are here thanks to massive govt. support and subsidies

there is a domestic dairy industry artificially created in a non-dairy consumption society

As far as I know the start of dairy farming was back in the 50's with a gift from the King and Queen of Denmark to the King of Thailand of a herd of dairy cattle.

How was the dairy industry artificially created, Ok th thai gov brought in a policy of giving school children free milk, is that bad? It is true that most thais dont drink much fresh milk and it is viewed as a bit of a health drink, but look at all the milk products, Condensed milk, yougot, ice cream, cheese (the Pizza company make all their own cheese in thailand) if the demand for these products was artifitually created, it would of been throught advertising rather than gov intervention, which is no different from creating a demand for any product!!

You asked me about the gov subsidies before, I still dont know if they exist, as far as I'm aware the selling price is dependant on market forces, I know different areas sell for different ammounts, we have a choice to sell to the local co-op, or a private company, belive it or not the co-op sells the milk comercially (Mali) and the company sells it to the Gov for schools. If you do know of any subsidies, please let me know. Dairy farming is supported bye the goverment, we are tax exempt, get some free vacineations and there is vetenarian support( of dubious quality).

Looked at the Biogas site In PLok (on internet not person!!) and a few others it was interesting, did you see the one with the indian village, who basically rent their animal dung to the Biogas thing. Anyway its a good idea and i will keep it in mind for the future ( I'm honestly not big enough yet to justify the cost and have'nt thought about how to use the gas yet) I was more interested in the sand filtration beds they were using I may have to put something simular in soon.

I understand you concerns on polution and the enviroment, but to get any comercial farms to make changes in my view takes one of two things to happen.

Goverment Legislation (which is also enforced!!) or you have to show that any measures are either cost neutral or even better increase profits, and let be honest even big multi national companies that go "above and beyond" only do so in the attempt to increase peoples awarness/respect for the brand and therefore increase profits.

Anyway prehaps we should have a beer sometime would make an interesting conversation!! How about a farming/gardenig sub forum?

[RamdomChances]

Me again

Just checking KK Kong Kean right?? If anyone remembers and is living in the area could you PM me close to the date the AU show is on would love to go, thanks.

Just a thought, you were talking about pestisides on fruit/veg, what really gets me is meat, the controls on selling meat here are virtually no existant/not enforced.

We have had a few cow's dye since opening the farm and usually sell the carcus. What do you think happens to it, yep usually it find's its way to the local markets, and this is from sick (very cos their dead) animals, that usually have been pumped full of various antibiotics/medicens in an attemt to save them.

I know chicken farms also sell off thier sick, lame, injoured, grade B animals. (I'm glad I never went into chickens I'd wouldnt stand a chance to justify myself to plachon )

Any one know anything about goat/sheep farming here??

I think that if you were looking for a hobby farm a few goat's might be a good way to go. For me if i was to do a hobby farm I'd look at market garden type things, hard to get fruit n veg, small ammount of land required but high maintanance, I'd also get a few cows (mabye goats) bye a couple of about 3/4 month beef cows (bramas), then all the waste can be fed to them and you have instant fertaliser.

Thats all for now, as you might guess have'nt got much on today!!

[bina]

this is long as usual but:

If you want basic info on goats; breeds health etc i can send u lots of sites; i raise goats as pets in israel (angora- a turkish breed for its fur mohai, boer (meat goats from south africa and can take heat), nubi/shami mix (suitable for dry hot prickly areas, baladi (a sort of local hardy mix with a high udder which doesnt get caught on scrub and doesnt need a lot of water, alpine/tobbogan mix (cold weather goats though seem to do ok here), zaanan (swiss and sensitive to high heat); have learned the hard way most of the health problems, vet stuff, birthing etc...i would think sheep would have a hard time with the humidity of thailand

we milk but for personal use so cannt tell you about liters/breed... just that the hotter the weather and the less they are out to pasture, the less milk and the more health problems (obesity being the main one); but goats seem to be the animal of choice for lots of women since they are friendly, small and managable even for basic self-vetting stuff (meds etc); their gestation is 150 days and they dont usually need help, in tropical climate u can sometimes get them bred again in the same year

i already asked about diseases in thailand as here we have a problem with brucellosis which is a zoonotic (goes to people ) disease; hoof and mouth, and a few others... here, the females cost more than the males, males are the food animal (very tasty although the thai people i work with, and others i've met, dont like it, they say it smells!)

saw a goat farm near ban chiang khom when i was there but didnt go in; afraid of communicable diseases.

goats can live on lower quality type hays (peanut hay, and some others that i dont what they are in english). if given leftover veggies as supplement and some kind of grain or goat chow in last trimester and while lactating but give best milk for production if given alfalfa (do they have that in thailand, its expensive here, 600$ ton)

milking is more effective by hand, goats recognize their owners and respond accordingly

goats milk is better for people who are lactose intolerant; and asian peoples as well as medditerranean peoples are supposedly more lactose intolerant. because milk was never used in their diet for thousands of years... didnt understand the milk in school thing either as thai get a lot of calcium from other foods in diet; vitamin D from the sun

[bina]

still curious as to how your cows die i.e. what illnesses (weather oriented? nutrition, pregnancy problems, communicable diseases,? )

why do they die if they are treated? waiting to treat to save money almost always end up with loss of livestock... or are the meds not effective? how do you breed? bull or semen? what meds do you use (some locally made or spanish brands for instance are really a waste of money i've discovered)... some vets here use oral solutions for injections which also saves money but often u end up with a dead animal.

[plachon]

good luck with lowering your "footprint" on the earth.

Ah plachon my tree hugging friend , nice to see your back.

I think you're pretty well-tuned to some of the dangers that can exist from stepping up the scale of production on a limited piece of land and then relying more on external resources for profitability

Thanks, but to be honest thats prob because this is a buissiness for me and cutting out the middle man (especially when they are unreliable) just maximises my profits and ensures a regular supply.

I dont really accept that my farm's foot print is bigger, but hopfully in the future that will change.

I'll explain we have 65 rai, about 12 of that is given over to cattle, which I dont think exeeds my "carrying capacity" the rest of the land 50 odd rai. I could prob grow enought grass and feed if it was the right type of land, so although I am reliying on external resorses, theoreticaly if a farmer was useing his land to grow say corn, but it was sutible for grass we could swap, the point that I'm badly trying to make is that I could be vertually self sufficent.

The reason that I say that hopefully that will change is that from an ecomomic point of view, growing "crops" is not a very efficent way of maximising your profits from the land, but it have the advantage of requiring very little initial investment. I think that we will eventually peak out at about 120 milkers, with around the same number of calves. The Idea being that when you reach a comftable number of milkers you breed your calfs, and start selling cattle as well, obviously starting with the dross, therbye raising the quality of your heard. Its wortt bearing that in mind if any of you want to buy livestock always ask why they are selling, espesially milkers (if they are good why get rid of them). If they are average or have some problem thats OK if the price reflects that.

extremely specialised animals bred by societies like the Dutch

We try our best to de-specialise them, a pure bread Friesian is'nt much use here all are crossed to a certian degree, ever been to Chok Chai I always to mean to go and have a look, wounder what they have there, would'nt supprise me it they where 100% Friesian.

However, the fact remains that they are here thanks to massive govt. support and subsidies

there is a domestic dairy industry artificially created in a non-dairy consumption society

As far as I know the start of dairy farming was back in the 50's with a gift from the King and Queen of Denmark to the King of Thailand of a herd of dairy cattle.

How was the dairy industry artificially created, Ok th thai gov brought in a policy of giving school children free milk, is that bad? It is true that most thais dont drink much fresh milk and it is viewed as a bit of a health drink, but look at all the milk products, Condensed milk, yougot, ice cream, cheese (the Pizza company make all their own cheese in thailand) if the demand for these products was artifitually created, it would of been throught advertising rather than gov intervention, which is no different from creating a demand for any product!!

You asked me about the gov subsidies before, I still dont know if they exist, as far as I'm aware the selling price is dependant on market forces, I know different areas sell for different ammounts, we have a choice to sell to the local co-op, or a private company, belive it or not the co-op sells the milk comercially (Mali) and the company sells it to the Gov for schools. If you do know of any subsidies, please let me know. Dairy farming is supported bye the goverment, we are tax exempt, get some free vacineations and there is vetenarian support( of dubious quality).

Looked at the Biogas site In PLok (on internet not person!!) and a few others it was interesting, did you see the one with the indian village, who basically rent their animal dung to the Biogas thing. Anyway its a good idea and i will keep it in mind for the future ( I'm honestly not big enough yet to justify the cost and have'nt thought about how to use the gas yet) I was more interested in the sand filtration beds they were using I may have to put something simular in soon.

I understand you concerns on polution and the enviroment, but to get any comercial farms to make changes in my view takes one of two things to happen.

Goverment Legislation (which is also enforced!!) or you have to show that any measures are either cost neutral or even better increase profits, and let be honest even big multi national companies that go "above and beyond" only do so in the attempt to increase peoples awarness/respect for the brand and therefore increase profits.

Anyway prehaps we should have a beer sometime would make an interesting conversation!! How about a farming/gardenig sub forum?

I'll take being called a "tree hugger" as a complement Random, as I've been called a lot worse in the past. In fact, these days it's the "tree huggers" that were once labelled as Greenie nuts that most European govts. are going to for advice on how to make their economies, and by extension agriculture, more clean and green, as they're also discovering it also can make good business sense. Jonathon Porritt, ex-head of the UK Green Party and now advisor to Tony Blair, is a good example.

But this is by the by. I found your post particularly interesting as you are going back to the core of the dairy industry and how it came to its present position. I think you're probably right about the royal connection, as there is a dairy herd slap in the middle of Bangkok in HM King's Chitralada Palace, along with many other farming enterprises. Would be fascinating to go and visit it. And I'm sure the Royal-sponsored project played a major part in dairy's early development in Thailand.

However, it started to spread nationwide in the late 80s and early 90s through massive promotion and support from a whole range of govt. agencies and projects. At the same time, lots of foreign bilateral aid organisations funding and direct govt support was also being given to Thailand to promote dairy farming. The Dutch, Danish, Japanese, Oz and New Zealand govt's were front runners in this, and the legacy is left behind in such brands as Dutch Mill, Thai-Denmark, Meiji, and several others whom I can't think of off the top of my head. So initially the subsidies were mostly being offered in the form of aid, sometimes with strings attached (loans or funneled back into that country's company's), but more often large sums were given as direct non-returnable grants.

Later, after a nascent dairy industry had been created, the foreign funds dried up (Thailand was considered a low priority beneficiary cf other places), and a whole powerful officialdom had been created living off the cream so to speak, and didn't want to lose their benefits and the good life. So the Thai Dairy Marketing Organisation was created to promote, control and protect "Frankenstein". Farmers were offered a good price (govt. subsidised) to act as an incentive to all the new small dairy farmers tempted into the game by dozens of earlier projects. However, to meet the market demand for milk there was a continual problem with fluctuating supply and quality (lots of adulterated milk with water to boost volume). As most of the large processors were private companies dedicated to sourcing from the lowest cost source, it became continually more easy and cheaper for them to buy milk from abroad in powdered form (e.g NZ and EU surplus production). Hence, it became possible to see in dairies everywhere bags of EU powdered milk being poured into "100 % Fresh milk" supplies. This outsourcing from abroad then lowered the demand for local milk and the price started to fall. There was a time about 6-8 years ago, when local producers around Muak Lek (major centre of the dairy industry) and other towns in Isaan were forced to pour their milk away, as the factories were buying at a price not worth their while, despite the fact that this had been a govt. promoted scheme to "solve poverty". Instead, previously solvent farmers were going bankrupt selling up their herd, assts and lastly land to speculators and joining the exodus to Bangkok. The dairy dream was faltering.

Since then, 2 main things seem to have happened, although I am no expert on this. Random might like to contradict me or add from his own experience. But as i understand it: 1/ The govt. enterprise DMO intervened and guaranteed prices, thus stabilising prices and making it profitable again. 2/ To promote the dairy business nationwide the govt. introduced the School milk project, where all primary school kids are offered a small bag of milk each day. Nice idea, but not without it's problems (mostly of corruption and spolied milk reaching the schools), as any eagle-eyed reader of the English dailies will testify.

It also brings me back to the point that I made in an earlier post that Thailand is NOT ostensibly a dairy-consuming country naturally. It is an artifact as a result of massive govt. intervention and the original plan of the foreign donors in promoting dairy farming was never realised, despite massive inputs i.e. that poor rural folk would take up dairy farming and solve thier indebtedness whilst at the same time feeding their families with nutritious milk. Instead what has happened, is that 1/ nearly every farmer that has tried dairy cows has sold every last drop of milk and given none to the wife and kids; 2/ most small farmers were given bad advice and ended up failing in the operation, with now most dairy farms being in the hands of medium- large farmers; 3/ most milk is processed into unhealthy milk products, esp. those laden with artificial colours, flavours and loads of sugar; 4/ The industry still can't operate by itself without the govt. subsidies and interventions (i.e. it is still heavily protected. This last point is maybe not something that most dairy farmers are aware of, but was brought home recently by the reports that dairy farmers are preparing to protest against including dairy products in the Free Trade Agreement with Australia, as they know well that they could not compete with the cheaper foreign imported milk from Oz.

So, Random, sorry to harp on at such length, but despite your pleas otherwise, I would still maintain that your income is partly being subsidised by the Thai taxpayer, which is very nice, for so long as it lasts, but don't expect it to be for ever. All the infrastructure that got the industry to where it is now, was mostly underwritten by the West in the mistaken belief it would be solving "poverty". Apart from that it's a grand industry and I wouldn't knock it for a minute............in fact, i regularly enjoy a glass of fresh milk (antibiotic residues, EU milk and all) and pots of Dutchie yoghurt. And of course, it's not the only business to be subsidised, but I would argue that it has had more than it's fair share.

One other point for Bina - Yes, many Thais are lactose intolerant and don't realise it. they're also getting more and more cases of diabetes to epidemic proportions and other diet related illnesses, but it is little reported. Yet, the govt goes out of it's way to promote non-local food types! And dairy in schools is one of the best examples of this. The rationale was it would make Thai kids grow bigger cos they don't get enough calcium. Of course, they never checked to see that the average Thai rural kid (esp. in Isaan) is not calcium deficient, because they eat so many fish, frogs, etc in the whole i.e bones and all, and the diet was already nutritionally complete. Now they eat less and less wild fish (because of the screwed up environment), more and more junk food and will flash you a lovely smile of blackened teeth when they arrive at school, thanks to the milk program.

Oooohps, Random is gonna hate me now!

Only kidding mate, would love to have a beer sometime and chat about some of these topics of mutual interest, rather than tapping at a poxy computer for hours!

[RamdomChances]

[RamdomChances]

will try to answer tomarrow, when I'm not drunk, but you're so much cleverer than me!! give me a chance!!

[mango head]

will try to answer tomarrow, when I'm not drunk, but you're so much cleverer than me!! give me a chance!!

I'll be eagerly awaiting your reply, as I'm sure many others are too!

[plachon]

will try to answer tomarrow, when I'm not drunk, but you're so much cleverer than me!! give me a chance!!

Trouble with me, is I don't get drunk often enuff! Too many Mekong and Singh hangovers in the past and present family duties have taught me to moderate my intake these days, but I'm always willing to make exceptions in the right company Random.

Two other things spring to mind since yesterday's marathon posting:

1/ You're dead right about govt. legislation and policy being the key to making +ve changes in environmental standards and quality of life for all. However, equally important is enforcement, which as you know in dear old LOS with your meat in the markets example, is often severely lacking. In the meantime, there's nothing to stop aware farmers making the first steps themselves and setting examples for the others to follow (SO LONG, as you're still making a reasonable standard of living and can quantify the benefit long term - often tricky to get right, I know).

2/ Both you and Bina came up with a similar conclusion to the one I made about 12 years ago, after seeing the pros and cons of the dairy industry up close, especially in relation to risk factors and the small farmers of Isaan. You both independently concluded that goats might be a good way to go for small farmers, which i would readily agree with. With goats, it's not even necessary to have your own land, so long as you've got somewhere to house them at night, as they can be grazed on other people's lands seasonally or on public/common lands. ######, they can even be grazed along road verges in really rural areas, so long as the farmer keeps them off the highways.

Other advantages of the humble goat are 1/ they're cheap and affordable to the poor; 2/ they're hardy and relatively disease resistant; 3/ they're fecund - twins most times and short pregnancy of 5 months; 4/the small amount of milk produced means it really can be consumed in the family; 5/ the carcass is small and ideal for occasions when a cow is too big to kill; 6/ there's a good market for them mostly amongst the Muslim community (they're common in the South and in certain districts around Bangkok), but also local Chinese at certain times of year.

These are just a few of the potential benefits from raising goats, although I could cite many more. I could also give a long list of potential problems and pitfalls to goats raising in Isaan, as I tried it myself on a small scale in the early 90s. (with Nubian/Saanen/local breeds mixes Bina). But on balance, the pros outweigh the cons, if one is prepared for doubters and snide comments from the neighbours! (they usually repent after the first goat bar-b-q!) However, it is harder work extending to ordinary villagers, which was my original aim in keeping them, but still possible with the right framework and backstopping.

However, this could rapidly become another monster posting, so i'll cut it here. Just interesting that both of you recognised the potential for goats in consecutive postings. Shalom and Cheers folks!

[RamdomChances]

Hi every one

Bina thanks for the, about goats, I think that they would be good for a small hobby farm, there are quite a few around here, I just dont know what the market for them is, down south they eat a lot of goat meat, but never seen it on sale up here.

You'r right about thai's not liking it cos it smells a lot have said that to me as well, me I love it, goat curry mmm. Do you drink the milk yourself?? do you do anything to it first i.e pasturise, I dont drink ours but have been looking into small scale pasturisation, just for personell use, maybe sell some in the shop if there is a demand (if there is'nt maybe I'll find a way to artifialy create one )

Most of the deaths of our cattle have been parisite related, but the weather does play a part as well, rainy season in BAD.

When I opened the farm I did'nt know anything about farming (i'm an ex aircraft enginere), and my thai was'nt that good, but we started small, the vets here are'nt that good, usually you have to tell them whats wrong with the cow and what treatment to give. Fortunatly I can do most stuff myself now, still cant put a drip in though.

Most of the medicens for parisites, have probs, ie cant send the milk for 45 days, and some cause abortions, but now we have a system of injections, i.e when you dry the cow off (2 months before birth) give one injection, cos you are'nt going to be milking for 2 months, then just after its given birth, do the others.

Most of the medicens are imported, but some times if a cow is really sick and your not sure why, we use a bit of a shot gun approach and inject for everything, but provention is much better, that trying to cure, it takes me about a week to get a blood samlpe done, which is usually to late!!

At the moment we artifiacialy insminate (AI), but I've got 5 bull's in various stages of maturity, so later we will try to use them. We run one bull thats about 15months old with the cows now, but he's not up to it yet (literaly), hes really good though a spotting the one's that are on heat.

[RamdomChances]

I'll take being called a "tree hugger" as a complement

Just a description

I was talking with the boss from our co-op today he said that the gov did not sudsidise milk, I dont know if this has always been the case, or even if its true. I do know that the gov supports the dariy farmer in a number of ways, we are tax exempt, and they offer loans to buy cows, upgrade farms ect, these are only avalible to the small farmer though, I've never qualified for one!!

The gov is currently bringing in farm standerds, that apparently are going to be enforced, although there is financial aid to small farmers i think this my be the end of them, some of the regs state that you cant have a farm within 50 meters of a road, and you have to milk at least 50 metere away from where people live, most small farms have milking palours next to the house. When the new farm is finnished we should be fully compliant, but I think that we will be the only one in Nakhon that is!! (there is a grace period of 2-3 years).

At the moment milk consumption far outstrips production in thailand, and around 50% of internal production is used to make "fresh" milk.

Hence, it became possible to see in dairies everywhere bags of EU powdered milk being poured into "100 % Fresh milk" supplies. This outsourcing from abroad then lowered the demand for local milk and the price started to fall. There was a time about 6-8 years ago, when local producers around Muak Lek (major centre of the dairy industry) and other towns in Isaan were forced to pour their milk away

As for the quality control in dairies goes, I dont know, I'm a farmer, but our milk is checked for bacteria (stomatic cell count), quality and antibiotic residues every time we send milk (2 a day), the co-op then send milk in a refrigerated tanker to the factory every day, where it is checked again. If I was to send suspect milk that ended up in the main holding tank I would be liable to pay for the entire days collection about 4 ton or 45,000 bht, it pays to be cautious!! if in dout check!!

As for the Issan story, I just dont get it, I know that around that time the price of milk was low, but If you just pour it away you gat nothing, I've never know a thai pour money down the drain!!.

The school milk probs were the creation of greedy corupt officials not farmers!!

1/ nearly every farmer that has tried dairy cows has sold every last drop of milk and given none to the wife and kids; 2/ most small farmers were given bad advice and ended up failing in the operation, with now most dairy farms being in the hands of medium- large farmers; 3/ most milk is processed into unhealthy milk products, esp. those laden with artificial colours, flavours and loads of sugar; 4/ The industry still can't operate by itself without the govt. subsidies and interventions (i.e. it is still heavily protected. This last point is maybe not something that most dairy farmers are aware of, but was brought home recently by the reports that dairy farmers are preparing to protest against including dairy products in the Free Trade Agreement with Australia, as they know well that they could not compete with the cheaper foreign imported milk from Oz.

1/ I always thought that was the point , to sell the milk for cash, i did'nt think it was ever intended for individual consumption.

2/mccweb.agri.cmu.ac.th/research/ Ag-sustain/rural_res_mng/dairy.html

The above link is a study carried out in Northen Thailand, one of the observations was that 82% of dairy farmers thought they had a better standerd of living through dairy farming.

As for most of the farms being medium to large, this simply is not true. There are about 130 farms in my area, mine is in the top 3 for size and I'm only medium, large is classed as over 100 head of milkers, and outside of khorat i've never heard of any!!.

Our co-op collects about 4000kg of milk a day from about 70 farms, mines the biggest, and I contribute about 10 % 400kg that means that the other 69 farms send on ave 3400 kg between them 3400 which averages out at about 50kg a farm, so no way could they be described as even medium (usually they have between 5-25 head)

3/ 50% of internal milk production is usde for making fresh milk

http://sunsite.au.ac.th/thailand/agriculture/Livestock.html

4/ The very fact that the thai gov are signing freee trade agreements negates your whole argument, if it was so protected why would the gov sign the agreement, and they are'nt " preparing to protest" they already have.

Anyway enough of this I'm not here to defend the dairy industry, but the farmers are'nt the industry.

All the goat stuff i think would apply as well to the "thai" beef cattle, as long as you only keep a few.

Too many Mekong and Singh hangovers

Mekong is bad, try Sang Som it's no where near as bad, with soda or water not coke.

For a really memerable hangover try Chang with LaoChow chasers, did this oncc with some thai friends, when i woke up i thought I had someone elses head!!

Where you at plachon, pm me mabey get together for a beer

[RamdomChances]

If anyones interested just posted a photo album in the members photos section, lots of picks of the farm and stuff.

[bina]

Goats again:

i actually drink straight from the teat but i also milk them and handle them; they dont go out to pasture so arent exsposed to most of the nasties... and when i purchase, they get their ear tags sent to the israel vet service computer to see from what area they came from (even if bought from a breeder) to rule out epidemic zoonoses type problems; they get blood drawn for chlymidia etc but actually i dont check for CAE which is a new goat thing doesnt affect us but the goats...

the kids stay with the nannies until sold at 4 months (after vaccine and ear tags) but i milk them and we get enough for yougurt, and feta style cheeses... i make the yougurt (boil the milk and then cool but not real pastuerization): now i give it to someone who was a proffesional cheese maker and she does pasteurize at home: i can get info about home pasteurizers etc from her if your interested...from what i see here from our thai workers, they wont touch it with a ten foot pole-- since i offerred them home made bulgarian style cheese to them to try and got disgusted looks as they continued to dip pig intestines into hot sauce...

dont laugh all but one of the jobs the cowshed workers had on a rotating basis was to watch the cows to see when they come into heat and then call the 'refet'manager (cowshed mnger) to prepare the AI... i may learn to do the sponge/AI thing for goats cause bucks stink to high heaven and they can be a problem to handle without separate lodging, etc. my last buck crashed me and broke my cell phone and he was hornless....

up until a year ago we had a huge cowshed here but due to environmental problems (plachon this is for u) and after paying huge fines, all the cowsheds from three kibbutzim in our area were consolidated together in one kibbutz... cowshit is a great great polluter...goats have solid waste and makes great fertilizer for the veggies even if not 'cured'.

one other thing, here the cows drink the whey from the dairy, its sold back to the cowsheds and given to the cows...

why is the rainy season bad?? cows get rained on all over europe?

BTW recently tasted goat milk icecream and it was actually really tasty.. Thai like icecream so maybe that could be something... yougurts with fresh fruit... milk shakes, etc... but probably not straight milk to drink...

boer goats are meat goats, thay are big, muscular, brown and white, not hairy, and hardy, and look less 'goatlike' so maybe fit the thai meat market better than a regular goat but terrible milkers (6 nipples to te udder)

[mango head]

Most of the deaths of our cattle have been parisite related, but the weather does play a part as well, rainy season in BAD.

What kind of parasites, and how do the cows get them? what is the remedy?

[RamdomChances]

Ok Rainy season and parasites.

Its not the raining on the cows thats the prob, but the farm does get very muddy, and the increased humidity, makes ideal conditions for bacteria to grow, the rate of mastitis in cows is much higher in the rainy season. The wet conditions also lead to many more probs with things like hoof rot ect

Also rainy season is bug season so you get much more probs from parasitic infections.

Ok types of parasite,

Lung worm

Intestinal worms

Liver / kidney flukes

Blood flukes

Ticks

Fleas

Eye flukes

The worse are the blood, liver, lung. The blood and liver ones are usually caught from bitting insects, ticks mainly which love the wet weather and long grass!! if not treated they can be fatal, in the case of lung worms I still dont know an effective treatment.

Fortunatly there is a lot of preventitive medicens, Iformec F is really good but expensive and you cant sell the milk for 45 days, its effective against virtually all of the parasites and we now inject every cow when we dry off prior to calfing.

For the various blood flukes, a drug called Berinil is really good (prevention and treatment) as is Imizol for liver flucks, although we dont use Imizol as a preventitive as it destroyes any natural imunity that the cow has developed. Both of these drugs have a withdrawal period of only about 4 days, but the major prob is that they can cause the cow to abort if pregnant, if we suspect a cow has a problem we inject post calfing.

There are vaccines avalible for lung worm but I've never seen them on sale here.

One of the probs is that these drugs are relitivly expensive so most farms dont bother, most of the probs we have had are with new cows bought in. Its seams that once we get into the cycle of injections, we dont have so many probs. We also inject our calfes every 4 months.

Was chatting to some people about goats last night, apparently they are quite easy to sell, from what I can gather you get someone like an agent to come to your farm, and they buy them and ship them off, a mature goat goes for about 4000bht aparently, the milk is not usually sold, but I'm told that you can buy it and its expensive and seen as a health drink.

[bina]

Iformec F

is that ivomec (cydomectin or something similar, the box is not in front of me )?

if so i know that here i can buy oral solution and give to the goats orally as it doesnt bother their rumination, and cheaper then the injectable type: but its only for certain parasites and some scabies types (we give to rabbits believe it or not); will check with the cow people here since we are less european in climate and diseases i.e. we are always listed under asia for diseases in ruminants, epidemics etc: israel, turkey, etc..maybe can give u some info...

just the humidity isnt the same....

i assume that you use polydine udder wash or halomed (some type of chlorine based sterilizer) for the milking machines and can be used as teat dip i think , made for cows, for foot rot, our cows are on raised platforms in the cowshed, but they never go out to pasture and they get hosed off before milking, other than that they stand in their own manure (fairly deep) until the next shed washing.

For plachon and others:

Israel Bruckental Ph.D

Head of The Institute of Animal Sciences.

A member of The Department of Nutrition, Physiology and Reproduction of Cattle.

Email: [email protected]

Tel: +972-8-9484447

Fax: +972-8-9475075

Institute of Animal Science,

Agricultural Research Organization,

The Volcani Center,

P.O.Box 6, Bet Dagan 50250, Israel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Research Interests

Dietary protein metabolism in ruminants.

Protein and amino acid requirements of high-producing dairy cows and of growing heifers.

The strategy of raising replacement heifers

Evaluation of by products of agriculture and the food industry as ruminant feeds.

an article you might want to read...

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol3no2/shimshon.htm

[plachon]

Hi Random, back again.

You've already identified some of the govt. subsidies to the dairy producers (rice farmers would turn green with envy, I bet if they knew how much they get taxed indirectly on their product). Unmilled paddy fetches about 5 K Bt/ton (average), but polished rice sells to the consumer at about 15 -20 B/kg i.e. 15,000 - 20,000 Bt/ton. Now that is a huge mark-up for some very simple processing and minor distribution (all areas of Thailand grow rice to a greater or lesser extent).

As to whether the govt. directly intervenes in the farm-gate price of milk, we'll have to beg to difffer on this one, despite the co-op head's insistence it's not. I think over the year's it's taken different forms of subsidy and it may not be directly obvious, but as I am fairly sure that the DMO is still a loss-making govt. enterprise (as it has since way back when), they are funneling tax payer's money into keeping the dairy industry above water. It maybe that the money used to come more directly to the farmer, but is now more hidden in various forms of subsidisation. Another piece of evidence for my argument is that if the price floats according to the market (which goes up and down seasonally, right?) why isn' t this reflected in your price received which I understand is flat, right? In particular, it should be very elastic during the long school summmer hols when the kids aren't drinking their free milk (another indirect and very significant subsidy to the industry), and the price should crash. You state that the price is 11.25 B/kg - how much has this price varied in the last 2 years?

It's good to know that you'll be compliant and staying ahead of the curve, but don't hold your breath on the regs being enforced for many years to come (just look at m'bike helmets for a classic example - enforcement is just starting in city areas upcountry, about 5 years after they became law).

"At the moment milk consumption far outstrips production in thailand, and around 50% of internal production is used to make "fresh" milk."

I'm glad you put the "fresh" in inverted commas, cos it defies the evidence of what one sees in any shop you care to mention selling milk products. I went to the link you gave put out by Assumption Uni and found it to be very outdated and "noddy" in the information given, not just for dairy, but for other types of farming. Perhaps, it was taken from a student's "special project" where the info was lifted from outdated govt. sources? Or perhaps, by "fresh" they mean any milk product that isn't UHT, condensed, evaporated, powedered, cheese, yoghurt, ice cream (v. low milk content usually), etc. i.e. so the artificially flavoured, coloured, sweetened and adulterated banana, choc, etc. milks found in shops and most Thais buy, account for 50 % of the market ? Even that i find hard to believe. But as for true "fresh" milk, i.e. straight up pasteurised fresh milk, then that must account for a low percentage of the overall market unless my eyes and intellect are deceiving me. Nearly all Thais I know (esp. the kids), turn their noses up at true fresh milk, saying it's "Jeut" i.e. plain and not sweet. Hence, you have this contradiction of a promotion saying "Drink milk for health", when the stuff that is widely available is anything but, and never mind the artificial additives, is adding to a whole generation of kids with black rotten teeth. Good for the dentists. Yes, I know this is not the concern of the milk producers, but it's relevant to the image and viability of the industry as a whole. (Just my 2 cents worth - but interested to hear anyone's alse opinion on this).

"As for the quality control in dairies goes, I dont know, I'm a farmer, but our milk is checked for bacteria (stomatic cell count), quality and antibiotic residues every time we send milk (2 a day), the co-op then send milk in a refrigerated tanker to the factory every day, where it is checked again. If I was to send suspect milk that ended up in the main holding tank I would be liable to pay for the entire days collection about 4 ton or 45,000 bht, it pays to be cautious!! if in dout check!!"

I think the bacteriological checks have probably tightened up in the past few years, but I am still a bit sceptical about the antiobiotic residues. You're probably doing it all according to the book, but what about the smaller farmers struggling to make ends meet, with a high debt to pay back and bills to pay. They all use lots of antiobiotics as far as I can see (you've pointed out all the diseases you're up against and Isaan is probably worse if anything!) and not only on the animals. Hey, it's normal in Thailand to pop pills even for common colds, so why worry about such things as 30 day/ 45 day withdrawal periods. Sorry to be so sceptical, but being a realist and having seen the blatant disregard for such periods in the past and knowing what goes on in other intensive livestock industries, then you'd have a tough job convincing me that other farmers are as fastidious as you in not milking and selling the milk from animals under treatment. (As you said yourself, "you've never known a Thai pour money down the drain").

Actually, I think the reason that they did pour the milk away was pure protest at how low the milk price had sunk to in those days (around 8- 9 baht, if i remember). No doubt, they couldn't do it for long and it led to the processors (temporarily deprived of raw material) to pressure the DMO to up the prices. Also, no doubt, a lot fo small famers went out of business fairly soon after, as they defaulted on loans, althouth TIT, they may have survived another year or two. However, it is noticeable that since the industry was promoted by the govt. and foreign donors as a poverty alleviation measure and farmers with 3 -5 head of cattle only were the main targets, it has subsequently rationalised and moved up to an activity for middle-income farmers and up. It never should have been promoted to land and capital scarce farmers in the first place, but it was, and now the natural order of things has become apprarent (while the small farmers who went to the wall in the early 90s after trying dairy cows are now probably pushing food carts in Bangkok or sweeping litter for 100 baht/day).

I see this industry from a slightly different angle to you Random i.e. as a neutral observer, who likes drinking fresh milk in my Lao coffee & still believes it can be viable in certain areas of the country, but think the time has come to remove the subsidies and start creating a genuinely healthy product. This doesn't mean the country should be opened up to untammelled "Free Trade" with every country, as Thaksin would like to see, as this will cause literally millions of farmers to go to the wall and you could be joining those Isaan farmers on to the streets of BKK. (Only kidding! ). What it means, very briefly and superficially, is giving selective support to farmers who are practicing ecologically-friendly farming methods and moving away from the chemical-dependent, energy-wasting, polluting and environemtnally degrading methods being supported now. Bina would probably know about the book "Silent Spring" (Rachel Carson) written 40 or so years ago in USA and still as relevant today as then. In fact, in the case of Thailand where the bird populations (and dozens of other wildlife groups) are in a precipitous decline due to the changes in farming methods, it is more relevant today than the US, where the tide is just starting to turn locally. However, nothing will change while the big agribusiness companies (many listed by Random as your feed suppliers) hold such incredible power over the politicians and the food that arrives on most people's plates.

Jeez, this thread is now in danger of spreading to a much wider topic than just "Farming in Isaan", but if it brings in more input / thoughts, then so much the better. We are what we eat, literally and metaphorically, so it's worth considering where our food (& drink) has come from. For that reason, I've long since given up on the Mekong/Saengsom/tip/Lao kao and Singh/Chang chasers! :D

Cheers!

[mango head]

Are there stores that sell only farm related products such as medicines for livestock, insect control sprays, etc., or do you have to shop around till you find what you need?

How can you be sure of the quality and make sure the product is not outdated and is safe to use?

[bina]

mango head: and to other new farmers,

1. learn about the livestock/plants you have, learn to recognize as much as possible the difference between a healthy animal and sick animal , symptoms of common problems (randomchance can clue you in about local syndromes, i'm sure),

2. check the internet for info from basic vet sites, american or european agri govt extension services, sites for private livestock growers (the farmstead types not the industry types because they handle things differently, at least in your beginning stages)

3. i checked out 'vet' stores, feed stores, etc.in thailand, wasn't overly impressed as a lot of stuff seemed geared to 'extras' that are given to fighting cocks rather like these 'penis builder drugs' that are spammed on the internet, not sure of the real effectiveness... learn the pharmeceutical names for meds...and percentages needed for your livestock...withdrawal time for milking, eating eggs, whatever...

4. as one vet told me, gut feeling is the best thing.... if you think that an animal is sick , dont wait, check with someone, even an experienced livestock person, it may save you money later, or keep you from losing the animal.

5. meds: even in israel, i notice that my large animal vet, and exotic animal vet prefer some things ordered on the internet from Holland, USA , England, Germany as opposed to local or dubious european brand meds EVEN if the pharmeceutical name and percentage is the same! but then again, one vet is Finnish, one is Dutch, and one is a Brooklyn Jew who specializes in camels, go figure!!!

6. Keep a logbook of animal-- illness, symptoms, possible causes (changed food, weather, in heat, whatever) and what meds and other care was given and if it worked... as RAndomchance more or less said, the gunshot approach, lots of everything and something works....

7. I assume plants are rather the same (same general principles) but still its more emotionally draining to see your best bull dying and have to decide how much money to put in him before you put him down; ecomonically, losing a field of whatever to some virus and losing a dairy cow are equally unpleasant if not catastrophic.

I learned all this the hard way, which really is the only way, as animals and plants dont read medical books and dont get sick according to theoretical info

[bina]

Sorry for length but Mango head, was unable to pm you?! got a message that you cant receive messages? soooooo.......

Mango head, somewhere in this thread, Plachon adressed the drip irrigation thingy; try pm'ing him; he seems to be very well versed in ecoagriculture, enviro stuff, and does seem to know what he is talking about agriculturally speaking...he seemed to think it was not a viable thing, but that was from his experience 12 yrs ago; things have changed.

S'thon here in israel seems to think it is a viable thing as he works in agric. here but is an agri. engineer from udon ... Israel is techno agricultural but because of some environmental concerns, some farms are moving towards organic (with the approval of the organic agric. association) or are getting rid of things due to environmental requirements such as manure sewage drainage (dairy farms are closing or are having to move to central dairy areas which means three kibbutz dairy farms on one site which leads to bad management, differing interests, etc.)

we had organic apples, it proved to be an economically bad decision; no more organic apples...

since the kibbutz is an economic entity, if something doesnt bring in money to the 'company', than it isnt needed. For small time farmers who have other money incomes, organic is better for the planet, more people want the stuff, and for personal use its best.

Talk with Plachon, who ever he is,I like his way of thinking

or u can always email me as i have lots of sites for livestock, organic, vets etc:

[email protected]

[RamdomChances]

Are there stores that sell only farm related products such as medicines for livestock, insect control sprays, etc., or do you have to shop around till you find what you need?

Most co-ops sell limited supplies of medicen/equipment, there are shops selling as well but are someimes not easy to find. Most of the medicen we buy is branded, with date stamps and in sealed bottles, so never had any probs. As for Insect control sprays we dont use any cos I dont really know a lot about them or their safty (have to put it on my list of things to find out).

I learned all this the hard way, which really is the only way, as animals and plants dont read medical books and dont get sick according to theoretical info

I really likes your post and have to agree with all of it really sound advice!!, check this link out its very good. Oh yes Ivormec (I did'nt have the bottle either!!) and we use I think an iodine based teat dip, and pre clean with a waek clorine solution. The new farm will also have a hoof bath, that the cows walk through when leaving the palour.

Smallholder dairying in the tropics (really good)

I've been looking for vet supplies In thailand on the internet for about a week now, a few adresses in BKK but nothing online. If anyone comes up with anything please let me know.

Ok the easy bit over, hi Plachon

While I've said before that I'm not here to defend the dairy industry I still dont agree with most of your points.

You've already identified some of the govt. subsidies to the dairy producers (rice farmers would turn green with envy, I bet if they knew how much they get taxed indirectly on their product). Unmilled paddy fetches about 5 K Bt/ton (average), but polished rice sells to the consumer at about 15 -20 B/kg i.e. 15,000 - 20,000 Bt/ton. Now that is a huge mark-up for some very simple processing and minor distribution (all areas of Thailand grow rice to a greater or lesser extent

I thought I identified measures that the gov was taking to support the industry, How much do rice farmers get taxed, I've been told that It is also Tax exempt, are you confusing taxation with profitering, we sell milk for 11.45 (its just gone up) in the supermarket fresh milk I thing is about 30 odd bht a liter, thate roughlythe same mark up as rice (if you take your low end fig). I also belive they eat rice in schools every day, as well as the armed forces, gov cantinees ect.

Still with the Farm gate price of milk, I've said I dont know but am not aware of any, I've talked to the people who run my co-op, they say they dont get any, If you have any hard evidence to the contarery please let me know. As far as the schools go we dont supply them we sell to Mail.

Mali, where my milk ends up

The other company here not a co-op does supply schools and the farms that sell there are always complaining about late payments ect during the holidays. It was set up and is owned buy two of the biggest farms here, but most of the small farms that supply them want out and as soon as their contract is up, will switch back. There may be a fixed price for suppling schools, I dont know. Oh in the last 2 years milk has steadly gone from 11.15 to 11.45 a kg, its never droped.

Dairy industry in Thailand

Agriculture in NE thailand

THE DEVELOPMENT OF DAIRY FARMING IN THAILAND

See above for loads of stuff about development of dairy farming in thailand.

It's good to know that you'll be compliant and staying ahead of the curve, but don't hold your breath on the regs being enforced for many years to come.

Apparently, its a bit like the ISO std's Mali, has to comply to sell/export dairy produce, therfore its suppliers have to comply as well and so on. Personaly I dont know it will mean a big change in dairy farming here and as I said I think the death of the small scale farmer. We had to do a new farm anyway so may as well make it complient!!.

I went to the link you gave put out by Assumption Uni and found it to be very outdated and "noddy" in the information given

Yea it was a bit simplistic, I wanted to make sure you could understand it

but I see you did'nt so I'll have to explain, as far as I'm aware Thailand produces about 50% of its own milk (seen figs higher and lower). the rest is made up from cheap powdered imports. Now you cant make fresh milk from powdered milk, so of the 50% of milk produced here about 50% of it is used for making fresh milk, that would be 25% of the total. Now of that 25% I dont know how much would be drank in schools but I say it was fairly high say 60%. That then leaves 40% of 25% i.e 10% of the total milk consumption, this is what you see on the supermarket shelvs, shops ect.

As for the anti baterial checks I dont do them. The milk is checked by the co-op twice day, a small sample is taken from my milk and placed in a numbered bottle (which equates to my farm) if it is found to be "bad milk" I'm liable for the whole days collection, because the milk is also checked at the factory. So Yes every farm must comply, even when we havw withheld the milk for the required number of days we still get it checked before sending and so does every other farm I know.

I see this industry from a slightly different angle to you Random i.e. as a neutral observer, who likes drinking fresh milk in my Lao coffee & still believes it can be viable in certain areas of the country, but think the time has come to remove the subsidies and start creating a genuinely healthy product. This doesn't mean the country should be opened up to untammelled "Free Trade" with every country, as Thaksin would like to see, as this will cause literally millions of farmers to go to the wall and you could be joining those Isaan farmers on to the streets of BKK. (Only kidding!  ). What it means, very briefly and superficially, is giving selective support to farmers who are practicing ecologically-friendly farming methods and moving away from the chemical-dependent, energy-wasting, polluting and environemtnally degrading methods being supported now

To be quite honest I dont know that much about the "industry" its only stuff I've picked up talking to people or trying to find out more about farming while surfing the net. I do get the impression that you are talking about the "industry" and I'm talking about the farmer.

The future of dairy farming here for small scale farmers is I feel on shaky ground, and whether you belive it or not thats about 80% of farms (not cattle or output) and these are the ones that probably fill your ideal, ie usually about 10-15 head, most mix their own food, use crop residues for fodder and put the dung back onto the land. Its also these farmers that get any financial support (as I've said I've never qualified for any).

If anything the free trade agreements will push the price of milk down, but most companies use cheap imported milk powder already, and you cant use powder for everything. Combine this possible drop in price with thghter regs, on farming and many small farms will ceace to be economicaly viable. That will drop the price of milking cows, which will probably be bought up cheaply by medium/large farms, who with larger herds and the ability to buy cheap animals will be able to absorb the price drop, with savings made for increaced scale.

Anyway it would be nice to broaden this out from "the dairy industriy in thailand" and get some more general stuff in.

A friend of mine has a chicken farm built over a fish farm, so when the chickens shit it just drops down and the fish eat it. Good idea of not ??

[RamdomChances]

PS i forgot plachon

What do you do when you see an endangered plant being eaten by an endangered animal?

[plachon]

PS i forgot plachon

What do you do when you see an endangered plant being eaten by an endangered animal?

Run home and grab my camera! Certainly wouldn't interfere with it.

Dunno, what's the answer at your end?

Will leave the question of milk subsidies to when we meet and I've had a chance to ask around a few people.

The chicken farm is a great idea, but unfortunately, if a certain powerful agribusiness company has it's way,it may become a thing of the past in Thailand, according to a recent news article trying to link bird flu with integrated raising fish and fowl. did you see it? In the B. Post last Tues or so i think.

[Willi_S]

Hello everybody

very interesting Thread, indeed. Till now, my attachment to Thailand hasn't gone out unless on vacation. What will change, however, in the nearer future?

Since I have professionally to do with the milk production would be interested which types/brands are used by milking machines in Thailand and by whom these then are waited.

@ random: on the photos I have seen that you milk with buckets there. I assume, however, that you milk in the new stable with Siphoning-Machine or in a milking stand / parlor in the future? Which equipment is installed there and who makes the installation and maintenance of the machine?

Yours sincerely to Thailand

WILLI

mail to: [email protected] / http://www.schaetz.de / http://www.pulsatortest.de

... do you think, there is a market for small milking-machines like this:

[MeNutsAreOnFire]

Sorry to take the thread away from dairy farming for a moment but I have a few questions and need some infomation on rearing cattle for meat.

I am going up to Issan on Wednesday for 5 weeks while my wife and I wait for our visa interview. I have been there twice before and she has I really nice family who live in a poor-ish village about 20km from Yasolthon. Her parents have signed over their land to her and they have quite a bit by all accounts, although there are desputes about her father's land. I will find out how much exactly when I'm there next. They grow rice on it while it's raining and let their cows eat the rice hay and shit on the paddy feilds. They also supliment this with grass brought from the road side and hay.

They only have 2 cows but they both seem to be in their prime of life, strong fit and big (lots of meat). They recently had a calf (bull) born which they "gave" to me when we had the wedding. It's seems like the bull is growing to be big and strong (I think its a brahnam - it has a lovely dark brown coat) and my wife says there have been offers for it first 30k then 40k and now 50k. They haven't sold it coz they say it's not there's. My friend seems dubious that cattle are really worth that much in Issan. One of the cows is now pregnant (I paid for AI - 1000 a shot took two times to work). They say that they are getting offers of 100,000 for this cow! Is this realistic?

I have a bit of spare cash to invest and was thinking about buying a couple more cows and try to bread them a little. If these are the price that are being used right now it seems like it could be quite lucretive. My wife says that now is the best time to sell as everyone needs lots of money for their rice crops and once the crop is harvested the price will go up as everyone has a bit of cash to plash.

I really want my girlfriends family to be more self sufficient and am not really looking to make a masive personal gain. If I can set them up with 5 or 6 cows that are producing other cows then they can start selling them or holding on to them and letting them get bigger.

Basically they could start making money and living off this business insted of worrying about the crops and I could get my money back? I really don't know anything about farming but I wouold like to help my new family out.

Can anyone give me some more info on this whole subject of cattle raising (for meat), especially with regards to prices and what I should expect to be paying and for what. Ideally I'd like to buy 3 more females of varying ages.

Plus is there money to be made?

Also is there like a market were people go and buy n sell cows near my area?

With regards to the bull should I just sell it and buy females, use it to stud (it's about 4 months old) - is selling it's seman viable? How long will it be before it can start breeding? Will it get too aggresive to keep or control? Why are people offering so much for it - coz they want to use it's seman or to kill it for it's meat?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Wash]

Go slowly. Something is wrong with this scenario and best get to the bottom of it before going in head first.

The prices you are hearing are way out of line and someone is pulling your leg and scheme comes to mind so look out. I have never heard of prices over 10K for a cow or bull in our area and unless it is some kind of super stud would think someone is playing your fiddle for you and you like the music.

I live in and amongst the Thai farmers and have been here more than 4 years now and the best advice I can give you is contained in the first two words of this reply.

[olaus]

Me Nuts Are On Fire

I live in Mahasarakham province. A cow with calf (about 4 months old), welfed, had 2 days ago the price of 17 000 Baht. (Price for both)

Olaus

[MeNutsAreOnFire]

I may have got it wrong a little. I think it was 100,000 for the pregnant cow and the bull. But still it's lots of money.

I know that the price of native Thai cows isn't high but if we are dealing in Brahman cows that yeild much more meat isn't it feasable? I know they paid 7500 for killing a calf for our wedding (about 40kg meat) and I've heard that big fully grown cows go for 20,000 for their meat. So I'm thinking that a female who's capable of producing more cows is going to be worth at least 30-40k - three calves grown to maturity would pay that back easily.

What breed were these cow and calf for 17,000bt. Does that make a difference?

Do they have shows here where you can win prices for the bet of bread - that kind of thing?

[olaus]

MeNutsOnFire

I have no idea about breed, anyhow these cow and calf for totally 17 000 Baht were grey, which colour most cows in my part of Isaan have.

However today I saw three brown cows and asked the price for them together.

The farmer told me: 30 000 Baht for all three.

This farmer has 60 rai rice -land but only three cows.

Olaus

[RamdomChances]

I'll put my bit in, I've never heared 100,000 for a beef cow, or bull. We sell grass to a lot of beef farms, and I keep and sell some of my bull calfs as well, the friesian crosses(milkers) dont get as much as the Thai cattle (usually brhaman or brahman crosses). A fully grown cow is usually sold but weight (estimated) and for a decent cow you should get 20-30,000 bht a 1 year old would be about 10-15,000.

I've sold old milkers for 20,000, 7500 for a 40Kg calf seems a bit high as well, we'd sell 8 month old calfs about 100 kg for 6-7000 bht.

AI at 1000 bht a shot!!!, we pay 50 bht, for fresion sperm, the most we've ever paid is 200 for imported pedigree friesion.

Ok just been talking to the wife, ignore the first bit, she says that yes if the cow are really good you could get 100,000, a cousin of ours just sold one for 250,000 !!! but you have to be lucky. I think there is a differance between selling for beef as I was originaly talking about and selling for breeding.

I think that the beef cattle can be used for breeding at about 18 months old, and it is quite a good buissiness if you know what you are doing, but it is easy to be taken for a ride if you dont. Also there is a big wait for return on your money I think they usually sell calfs between 12-18 months old.