FAA says Thai aviation industry lacks sufficient qualified personnel

[balo]

I don't think that Air Asia based in KL is any better than Thai airways to be honest, Right now the focus is on Thai but if you look closely I am sure you will find holes in the safety standards with other airlines in Asia.

[fish fingers]

Too many Turks in Thailand I guess.

[ToS2014]

It really boggles my grey matter that Thailand, so 'elite', has to be repeatedly 'told' by outsiders to get their do-do together. From trafficking in persons, fishing, air industry...geeze international norms haven't just sprang up. I wonder why...well, I'll just drop it

[geriatrickid]

In my opinion all this is so typical of the holier than thou farang mentality.

If the standards were so low, in comparable terms to other aviation sectors, they would be banned now.

Simple as that.

I think most posters are from the era where you had to check the oil and brake fluid on the "motor" weekly before risking taking the family for a drive into the country for the day.

Things have changed and changed dramatically. The modern turbojet and airframe is something completely different to what your conceptions may have been. They simply do not need the maintenance regime that was demanded in the past.

Granted they still need the ego massage of the pilots but that will change as the paying public wakes up to the fact that a computer can do a better, safer, more predictable job than a human can.

Howls of derision no doubt will be forthcoming.

Why does the pilot actually have to be in the aircraft? It's only a flying computer. Something goes wrong....control it from a position of safety.

You are wrong in so many ways. Thailand flagged aircraft is already subject to restrictions. and the countries who imposed those restrictions are the airlines who receive the flights. Thai Airlines International - TG is not subject to US restrictions yet. This is attributable to TG making sure it's aircraft are in good shape before entering US airspace. It is easy to do when there is only one destination, LAX and a handful of flights.

Your comment about the service requirements of modern aircraft is way off. Have you ever seen the maintenance manuals for a modern aircraft? There are multiple diagnostics and verifications that must be undertaken. Only a complete idiot with zero knowledge of aviation would make the claim that computers can replace pilots. Equipment breaks down. Computer software is usually written by emotionally unstable people who intentionally leave vulnerabilities or error who make coding errors. One need only look at the travesty that is adobe flash or the mess that MS IE is to understand that point.

How can you make your assertions with a straight face? One of the reasons why the AF plane crashed off the coast of Brazil is because the French pilots thought just like you - computers can't be wrong and were unprepared when the autopilot disconnected because the air speed measurements were wonky. Time and time again we have seen what happens when electronic systems fail on aircraft. The failure of the 2 aircraft control computers is considered to be a major factor in the FD AB crash off of Indonesia. Computers breakdown, software fails. An aircraft needs a human to be there when it happens. Flying a real airplane is not the same as playing on a personal computer flight simulator.

[Maestro]

With press releases and the forthcoming report of the FAA it is important to read between the lines to emphasise the correct word. My reading is that the Thai aviation industry does not lack sufficient personnel, but that it does not have sufficient qualified personnel, ie too many persons employed because of their connections, not their qualifications. I believe this to the case particularly with the government-owned Thai Airways, probably less so with the privately-owned low-cost carriers.

[Amras]

In my opinion all this is so typical of the holier than thou farang mentality.

If the standards were so low, in comparable terms to other aviation sectors, they would be banned now.

Simple as that.

I think most posters are from the era where you had to check the oil and brake fluid on the "motor" weekly before risking taking the family for a drive into the country for the day.

Things have changed and changed dramatically. The modern turbojet and airframe is something completely different to what your conceptions may have been. They simply do not need the maintenance regime that was demanded in the past.

Granted they still need the ego massage of the pilots but that will change as the paying public wakes up to the fact that a computer can do a better, safer, more predictable job than a human can.

Howls of derision no doubt will be forthcoming.

Why does the pilot actually have to be in the aircraft? It's only a flying computer. Something goes wrong....control it from a position of safety.

You are wrong in so many ways. Thailand flagged aircraft is already subject to restrictions. and the countries who imposed those restrictions are the airlines who receive the flights. Thai Airlines International - TG is not subject to US restrictions yet. This is attributable to TG making sure it's aircraft are in good shape before entering US airspace. It is easy to do when there is only one destination, LAX and a handful of flights.

Your comment about the service requirements of modern aircraft is way off. Have you ever seen the maintenance manuals for a modern aircraft? There are multiple diagnostics and verifications that must be undertaken. Only a complete idiot with zero knowledge of aviation would make the claim that computers can replace pilots. Equipment breaks down. Computer software is usually written by emotionally unstable people who intentionally leave vulnerabilities or error who make coding errors. One need only look at the travesty that is adobe flash or the mess that MS IE is to understand that point.

How can you make your assertions with a straight face? One of the reasons why the AF plane crashed off the coast of Brazil is because the French pilots thought just like you - computers can't be wrong and were unprepared when the autopilot disconnected because the air speed measurements were wonky. Time and time again we have seen what happens when electronic systems fail on aircraft. The failure of the 2 aircraft control computers is considered to be a major factor in the FD AB crash off of Indonesia. Computers breakdown, software fails. An aircraft needs a human to be there when it happens. Flying a real airplane is not the same as playing on a personal computer flight simulator.

Computer software is usually written by emotionally unstable people who intentionally leave vulnerabilities or error who make coding errors. One need only look at the travesty that is adobe flash or the mess that MS IE is to understand that point.

Hmm....I'd quite disagree with that. " Only a complete idiot with zero knowledge of programming would make the claim that.." Oh the irony.

Programmers don't intentionally program bugs, claiming so show you know nothing about programming. There are people who's only job is to look for and bug fix.

Yes I agree with you that computers can't replace people (YET), one day they will (maybe not in my life time though), but by that time AI will be pretty sophisticated. We aren't there yet.

[bangon04]

"But ACM Prajin said Thai aviation authorities have already started to take up measures to solve the mentioned problems."

yes they have formed 3 or 4 committees.... what more do the foreigners want?

[kimamey]

When did Bangkok Airways start flying to the USA?

That's what I thought. Checked their website and they seem to be unaware as well. Not sure why there a picture of a Turkish Airways plane either.

[kimamey]

I read it twice. It's all talk and no plan. How many Western guys would like to be stationed in Thailand for any of those jobs. Do the jobs and train Thais at the same time.

Thainess. Face. Procrastination. Excuses.

I certainly wouldn't mind. I don't have any experience but don't worry "this problem could be resolved."

[arrowsdawdle]

But plenty of generals!

Why not the generals. They are expert in everything including running the country.

...into the ground.

[Halion]

This is not news but simply standard operational practice in many industries here.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

With press releases and the forthcoming report of the FAA it is important to read between the lines to emphasise the correct word. My reading is that the Thai aviation industry does not lack sufficient personnel, but that it does not have sufficient qualified personnel, ie too many persons employed because of their connections, not their qualifications. I believe this to the case particularly with the government-owned Thai Airways, probably less so with the privately-owned low-cost carriers.

I think you're certainly right in terms of the nature of the staffing at Thai Air..

However, regarding the FAA's assessment about qualified personnel, in this particular review, supposedly they were looking more at the DCA regulatory staff -- as opposed to the operational staff at the individual airlines.

But with the vagueness of the various media reports, it's kind of hard to tell whether the FAA review team's reported assessments were aimed exclusively at the DCA, or at the DCA and individual airlines like Thai Air (which is the only Thai carrier with its own flights to the U.S. at present).

[KOZMO]

Get the attention of the Thai government by suspending all International flights by Thai Airlines!!! Maybe they might get some qualified personnel then.

They charge ridiculous prices to L.A and the service is not even worth mentioning. they charge $500 more than most other Airlines, which i paid before

because they were the only non stop to Bangkok. Not no more, so why not lower your price???? If you can pass the FAA'S requirements.

[BestBitterPhuket]

When a successful country lacks qualified personnel locally, they recruit foreigners to assist. When a failed country lacks skilled personnel locally, they do nothing and just let problems continue. Guess which category Thailand is in...

[harada]

I would be interested to known what effect being downgraded to Cat 2 will have on obtaining travel insurance on these airlines , anyone know?

[selftaopath]

"Not enough qualified personnel? Hey, not a problem in Thailand. They'll just appoint their wives, kids, cousins and in-laws to fill in the necessary requirements."

That's true enough - sadly.

Thais who don't see themselves as experts already all want to be experts. Many Thais pretend to be experts because it's easier, which is why so many government officials come out with some of the BS they come out with. But Thais don't generally want to actually learn how to be an expert. Too hard. Or they're so deluded they think that education and training can be had the easy way, the Thai way - Uncle Somchai or 50,000 baht to the University Dean, that ought to do it, no need to actually study anything.

There was a recent case where a Thai PhD was shown to have stolen (plagiarised) his thesis. So they went after the American doctor who really wrote it so she had to leave Thailand in fear for her safety. The fraudulent Doctor is still working in the same job, probably got a raise. Fraud in Thailand carries no penalty if you know the right people (same as murder carries no penalty if you're rich and can afford the bribes). Never try to get a job in a developed country by flashing a Thai certificate, you'll get laughed out of town. I've seen this happen.

This is why the FAA are so critical of Thai competence and professionalism - same as everyone else - Thais can't win for losing.

As for recruiting foreigners, I doubt many good and competent foreigners will be queuing up to come to a place that sneers and ridicules foreigners for being - well, foreigners. Aspiring members of the barstool brigade might be interested though, beer and pussy are both pretty cheap in TL so who knows?

These and other, related problems will bite the Thai government good and hard in the ass as their chickens continue to come home to roost. It ain't over yet, not by a long way. Unlike Thailand, the rest of the world learns from experience, and charity only goes so far (particularly after Thais stole much of the tsunami disaster aid. Oxfam won't be helping Thailand again). Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Thai arrogance and exceptionalism will yet bring Thailand to ruin, I recommend the rabid anti-Thaksin brigade should watch what happens when the AEC becomes a reality. Forget about Thaksin, forget the outrage that he was a criminal, they're all criminals, he just fell from grace and paid the price. Unless you think it's reasonable for a Thai soldier to amass 600 million baht on a soldier's salary? I'm not a Thaksinite or a bite-your-leg Thaksin-hater either. but I doubt he's finished with Thailand just yet, he's of Chinese descent and that means vengeful and vindictive. They're even worse than Thais, but more competent and less honest.

All these things are linked.

AMEN.

Thank you for posting. Pity your post will most likely only be seen by TV members/readers.

[selftaopath]

As usual, the English language reporting on this kind of stuff is pretty shoddy and vague...

But from The Nation report linked above:

Aside from testing the aviation agency, the team of four experts also examined national carrier Thai Airways International, and Bangkok Airways, one of the largest private airlines.

"FAA will then conclude official testing within 30 days and will inform the Thai aviation authority. We have another 65 days to fix all the problems," Prajin said.

According to Prajin, Thailand was downgraded to second tier, which will affect flights to the US. However, the ministry will monitor the impact of the move.

The ministry is also ready to talk and sort out the issues with foreign aviation authorities.

Prajin added that the authorities would not be able to solve all the aviation problems this year [that means not within the next 6 months!!!] because of a shortage of experts.

The comments above would seem to suggest that he's saying they don't expect to be able to meet the deadline's set by the FAA....

The Cabinet earlier approved a plan to hire more experts as well as to bring in foreigners to help ease such problems.

BTW, has anyone actually heard that they're actually trying to do any foreign aviation hiring -- instead of just talking about it?

LOL. Thais are magnificent/skilled at TALK; not so much in action. As the world experiences Thai"ness" more and more the Kingdom is in for a very RUDE awakening.

COOL. Can hardly wait.

[Jiggo]

'qualified people in Thailand' is there....

[quandow]

[geriatrickid]

Computer software is usually written by emotionally unstable people who intentionally leave vulnerabilities or error who make coding errors. One need only look at the travesty that is adobe flash or the mess that MS IE is to understand that point.

Hmm....I'd quite disagree with that. " Only a complete idiot with zero knowledge of programming would make the claim that.." Oh the irony.

Programmers don't intentionally program bugs, claiming so show you know nothing about programming. There are people who's only job is to look for and bug fix.

Yes I agree with you that computers can't replace people (YET), one day they will (maybe not in my life time though), but by that time AI will be pretty sophisticated. We aren't there yet.

Be honest please. Do you work in IT?

You disagree with my comment that programmers intentionally leave bugs. Because I made that statement that they do, you claim that I know nothing about programming. Well, newsflash, I don't claim to be an expert in software. do however pay attention.

Are you denying that there are no such things as maintenance hooks, or backdoors? Will you next argue that Sergey Aleynikov was a poor victim?

As for your faith in people who look for bugs, that doesn't seem to be working too well as we are faced with a barrage of malicious software seeking to exploit browser weaknesses every time we use the internet.

[Taffyfromflint]

Over the last three years I made regular trips overseas on business every month. Loyal to Thai Airlines as they offered direct and reasonable fare. Now however I find myself searching for the best fare even if it means multu stop. Try searching Chiang Mai to Brisbane, Not on the radar and when it does appear it comes in at 314000:00 Bht. Profit before efficiency. As a qualified safety auditor I shudder to think what would be uncovered and besides who will make the changes. These are recommendations made by the inspectors so no problem more Bht to be made flying within asia. If an incident should happen just cover up the logo and prtend it wasn't our plane.

[4evermaat]

In my opinion all this is so typical of the holier than thou farang mentality.

If the standards were so low, in comparable terms to other aviation sectors, they would be banned now.

Simple as that.

I think most posters are from the era where you had to check the oil and brake fluid on the "motor" weekly before risking taking the family for a drive into the country for the day.

Things have changed and changed dramatically. The modern turbojet and airframe is something completely different to what your conceptions may have been. They simply do not need the maintenance regime that was demanded in the past.

Granted they still need the ego massage of the pilots but that will change as the paying public wakes up to the fact that a computer can do a better, safer, more predictable job than a human can.

Howls of derision no doubt will be forthcoming.

Why does the pilot actually have to be in the aircraft? It's only a flying computer. Something goes wrong....control it from a position of safety.

When that British Airways Boeing 777 lost both engines on the final approach to Heathrow a couple of years it was the skill of the pilot who managed to get it onto the ground in one piece, and with all on board in one piece. Likewise the American fellow who managed to put his aircraft down on the Hudson River in New York when the he lost his engines climbing. Yes the computer can do virtually everything, but not quite everything. In both cases I doubt that a remote operator could have managed.

Jag provided excellent examples of unavoidable emergencys. But what about preventable mishaps like a loose wrench that ends up jaming landing gear or disabling some electrical component. This would be caused by incompetent peronnel, whether it be the mechanic or the supervisor who signs off. In aviation, foreign object damage prevention and attention to detail is critical for making any aircract safe for flight.

[sammygood]

now there is a shocker ...

same same as most construction guy, electricians, ...

hub of lacking skills

[kiwikeith]

If this article gets published internationaly might shock a few, and maybe shock them into action, I have always wondered about maintenance with airlines today not only Thai.

What about all these budget airlines around the globe.

[selftaopath]

Over the last three years I made regular trips overseas on business every month. Loyal to Thai Airlines as they offered direct and reasonable fare. Now however I find myself searching for the best fare even if it means multu stop. Try searching Chiang Mai to Brisbane, Not on the radar and when it does appear it comes in at 314000:00 Bht. Profit before efficiency. As a qualified safety auditor I shudder to think what would be uncovered and besides who will make the changes. These are recommendations made by the inspectors so no problem more Bht to be made flying within asia. If an incident should happen just cover up the logo and prtend it wasn't our plane.

I seemed typically dumfounded when I compared round trip air travel from US to BKK and then the reverse. Guess which costs more?

[SupermarineS6B]

No surprises there then....... Sadly the Thai reluctance to admit that they don't how to do something is now putting thousands of peoples lives in danger....... Please wake up Thailand, admit that you just don't know, and employ someone that does.......... Treating an airline like a tuk tuk business is not the path forwards......... I've worked for PTT, worked on the skytrain and the underground, and without outside experience and technology, Thailand would not of been able to benefit from these businesses........ Lose some face, and gain some expertese.......... Quickly before you have a disaster.......

[billd766]

I read it twice. It's all talk and no plan. How many Western guys would like to be stationed in Thailand for any of those jobs. Do the jobs and train Thais at the same time.

Thainess. Face. Procrastination. Excuses.

I did that working for Motorola in the 1990s. We trained the AIS and DTAC guys well enough in 5 years that we trained ourselves out of a job. I came back a couple of times since but on short term priority jobs as a contractor.

Most of the Thai techies I worked with were smart guys, learned very quickly and quite a few went on to become offshore contractors themselves and did a good job there too.

If Thailand bites the bullet and contracts out the job and specifies training too within one or two years they will have a good workforce.

One of the things I found in Thailand was that the upper management never appreciated the workforce as they should have done.

[billd766]

Everything is in hand already but isn't it always until called out then it's a plea for an extension.

Look how the PM handled the fishing boat issue, doesn't inspire confidence of things actually getting done.

If red cards are produced on several issues there will be howls of protest and it will be everybody else's fault.

I agree with you absolutely.

The PM actually DID something. It may not have been very much but unlike the many previous government of all stripes and colours, "elected" and military over the last 20 or 30 years, he did NOT sweep it under the carpet.

[geriatrickid]

Everything is in hand already but isn't it always until called out then it's a plea for an extension.

Look how the PM handled the fishing boat issue, doesn't inspire confidence of things actually getting done.

If red cards are produced on several issues there will be howls of protest and it will be everybody else's fault.

I agree with you absolutely.

The PM actually DID something. It may not have been very much but unlike the many previous government of all stripes and colours, "elected" and military over the last 20 or 30 years, he did NOT sweep it under the carpet.

The General did not have an option, as a refusal to respond would have resulted in stop movement orders with a refusal to allow entry of Thai flagged carriers. Foreign regulators are basically doing what the Thai regulators should have done years ago. In effect, the general could have ignored the issue and watch his country blacklisted with a large chunk of his GDP disappear or he could have made accommodating sounds and played for time as he did.

The problem for the general is that Thailand's aviation sector and its largest airline are defacto extensions of the Royal Thai Air Force. Airports are a major source of revenue for the military's business arm and it runs the operation to maximize their profits. The military should not be in the civilian airline sector. No amount of experts will change the underlying deficiencies. Until the Thai regulators are given a free hand and until the airline sector, including TG, stop being a parking space for Thailand's military, nothing will change, It can't. The Thai military have a stranglehold on everything. If the airforce doesn't allow/support an improvement, it will not happen.

I did that working for Motorola in the 1990s. We trained the AIS and DTAC guys well enough in 5 years that we trained ourselves out of a job. I came back a couple of times since but on short term priority jobs as a contractor.

Most of the Thai techies I worked with were smart guys, learned very quickly and quite a few went on to become offshore contractors themselves and did a good job there too.

If Thailand bites the bullet and contracts out the job and specifies training too within one or two years they will have a good workforce.

One of the things I found in Thailand was that the upper management never appreciated the workforce as they should have done.

You are diplomatic in the use of the term "appreciate". I too have noticed the reluctance of Thai controlled businesses to encourage continuing education and skill upgrades. It is a defining difference between the big Japanese/Korean/German and Thai manufacturers. Thai firms of all sizes and the small foreign owned firms are downright hostile to the concept of employees improving themselves. Another crippler is the employment discrimination common to Thailand. Age and gender are the two most common types. Thailand has a habit of refusing to consider 75+% of its work force simply because the prospective employee is of a certain age or female. Is it any wonder, that the Thai work force is so troubled?

[jaywalker]

I've done work on RTA, RTAF & RTMC ground equipment as a "Foreign Expert".

Did it over a decade off & on.

Super nice folks would look at me and grin from ear to ear.

I'd point out about 5,000 things wrong with their "procedures".

They'd just grin some more & hope I went away soon. The RTMC in Sattahip were a good bunch that actually took their jobs seriously though. I enjoyed working with them.