US Catholics wrestle with teachings as gay employees dismissed

[webfact]

Catholics wrestle with teachings as gay employees dismissed
MARYCLAIRE DALE, Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — Pope Francis refined his vision for the church last week when he said long-spurned divorced and remarried Catholics should be welcomed with "open doors." And he has famously parsed centuries of thought on homosexuality into a five-word quip: "Who am I to judge?"

Yet the Archdiocese of Philadelphia opened its door only briefly when married gay teacher Margie Winters, trailed by supporters, arrived Monday with 23,000 petitions seeking reinstatement to her job at a Catholic elementary school.

"The school and the Sisters of Mercy allowed me to work there for eight years. Once the diocese was notified, something changed," said Winters, who was disappointed that a security guard, and not a church official, took her petitions at the chancery door.

Winters, 50, lost her job at Waldron Mercy Academy in June after a parent complained about her 2007 marriage to a woman. Her case highlights the shifting fault lines over gays in the church — and in church workplaces — just before the pope visits Philadelphia next month for the World Meeting of Families.

Jesuit-run Fordham University is standing by its theology chairman whose same-sex marriage made the New York Times wedding section this year, while at Seton Hall University, the archdiocese of Newark, New Jersey, recently reassigned the head chaplain after the priest denounced gay bullying and later came out as gay.

Around the U.S., more than 50 people have reported losing their jobs at Catholic institutions since 2010 over their sexual orientation or identity, according to New Ways Ministries, an advocacy group for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Catholics based in Mount Ranier, Maryland.

Philadelphia Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, wading into the issue amid Winters' case, stressed that Catholic schools are responsible for "teaching and witnessing the Catholic faith in a manner true to Catholic belief," referring to the church's condemnation of homosexual activity. He said the Mercy officials showed "character and common sense" for sticking to church teachings.

"A great number of people like to pick apart the remarks of the Holy Father and manipulate them to drive their own agendas," Chaput's spokesman, Ken Gavin, said Thursday in response to questions about the pope's latest comments. "Keeping the doors open does not mean that basic church teachings will be changed. ... The Holy Father has not given any signals that teaching on the meaning and sanctity of marriage will be changing."

Winters and her wife, Andrea Vettori, clinical director at a health center for the homeless, met in their mid-30s when they entered the Sisters of Mercy as candidates for religious life. Instead, they felt called to build a life with each other, and married in Massachusetts in May 2007.

Winters was hired that August as director of religious education, leading service and outreach efforts at the school in suburban Merion Station. On the advice of her principal, she was open about her marriage with colleagues, but kept mum around students and families. Many came to see her as the heart of the school.

"She was really able to instill in the kids that helping those less fortunate is something you do every day. It wasn't just something she would pull together on a holiday," said parent Jerry Dever, a Philadelphia lawyer with two children at Waldron.

Waldron is run by the Mercy sisters, independent of the archdiocese, but the local church has the power to pull the "Catholic identity" of any institution seen to stray from church teaching. Gavin said that no such threat was made to Waldron.

In a pained July 3 letter to parents that noted Winters' "amazing contribution" to the school community, principal Nell Stetser said the nuns must recognize "the authority of the archbishop of Philadelphia, especially in the teaching of religion."

"My hope is the pain we experience today adds to the urgency of engaging in an open and honest discussion about this and other divisive issues at the intersection of our society and our church," she wrote.

With same-sex marriage now legal across the U.S., more gays employed in church settings are likely to get married and live openly. That brings more potential conflict for their employers, who can claim a religious exemption from anti-discrimination laws. Winters hopes to sneak in a word with Pope Francis on his visit and push for a moratorium on LGBT firings.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-08-10

[Seastallion]

I thought the religious exemption applied only to a church's ability to decline performing a ceremony. The exemption should not trump employment or anti-discrimination laws.

[oneday]

If God would approve of this, then this is not a God I would have any belief or faith in.

Religions are as corrupt and arrogant as some of the worst governments.

[Seastallion]

If God would approve of this, then this is not a God I would have any belief or faith in.

Religions are as corrupt and arrogant as some of the worst governments.

Can I assume your disapproval is of God's apparent approval for discrimination?

[sdanielmcev]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

[HerbalEd]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

In USA and other western countries, just because it's a private institution doesn't mean it can discriminate against gays by refusing to hire them.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think the Catholic Church should be forced to perform gay weddings, but have to agree that they should not be able to ignore employment or anti-discrimination laws. Being Christians, I would not think they would want to. Love thy neighbor and all that.

[Pinot]

Catholic church always does the wrong thing. I have a tiny bit of hope that this new Pope is starting to make some good decisions. Things like saying there is climate change. I thought he had welcomed back gays to the church?

The American Bishops have always been dicks.

[Ulic]

If they fire all the gay employees of the Catholic church what will they do for priests. There is

a shortage of priests already.

[elgordo38]

If they fire all the gay employees of the Catholic church what will they do for priests. There is

a shortage of priests already.

Same code as the army "Don't ask don't tell"

[Jingthing]

If they fire all the gay employees of the Catholic church what will they do for priests. There is

a shortage of priests already.

Same code as the army "Don't ask don't tell"

That was scrapped years ago. In the U.S. as in many nations you can be openly GLBT and serve.

The Catholic Church ... they get government tax deductions, yes?

So how are they exempt from any employment non-discrimination laws, when there are any?

As far as marriages, that's different ... there is no need to compel any religion to perform any marriage ceremonies they don't approve of as marriages can be fully done as a CIVIL matter.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Jingthing

[sdanielmcev]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

In USA and other western countries, just because it's a private institution doesn't mean it can discriminate against gays by refusing to hire them.

Yes it does. And it is not discrimination if it not up to a certain standard. Particularly teachers that hid their gayness, when as a standard they would not be hired in the first place.

Remember, I do not necessarily agree with it. But the first amendment trumps all others. That is why it is first.

[sdanielmcev]

If they fire all the gay employees of the Catholic church what will they do for priests. There is

a shortage of priests already.

Same code as the army "Don't ask don't tell"

That was scrapped years ago. In the U.S. as in many nations you can be openly GLBT and serve.

The Catholic Church ... they get government tax deductions, yes?

So how are they exempt from any employment non-discrimination laws, when there are any?

As far as marriages, that's different ... there is no need to compel any religion to perform any marriage ceremonies they don't approve of as marriages can be fully done as a CIVIL matter.

It's tax-free. If that makes a difference.

[DeepInTheForest]

It may appear that there is great resistance to more modern ideas, but there is no need to be overly concerned. Someday the leadership of the Catholic Church will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 7th century.

Edited August 10, 2015 by DeepInTheForest

[SheungWan]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

If being gay prevented one from being a member of the church then why was there a systematic cover up of priests suspected of child abuse over a period of decades?

[cornishcarlos]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

If being gay prevented one from being a member of the church then why was there a systematic cover up of priests suspected of child abuse over a period of decades?

I think child abuse and being gay are 2 completely separate topics.

[willyumiii]

How can Catholics condemn gays when they worship a guy who lived with twelve men who wore dresses?

[Jingthing]

They can condemn anything they damn well please.

[Seastallion]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

In USA and other western countries, just because it's a private institution doesn't mean it can discriminate against gays by refusing to hire them.

Yes it does. And it is not discrimination if it not up to a certain standard. Particularly teachers that hid their gayness, when as a standard they would not be hired in the first place.

Remember, I do not necessarily agree with it. But the first amendment trumps all others. That is why it is first.

By your rationale, it would be legal for an employer to advertise for a job and stipulate, "No gays". Or "Black people should not apply", or "Women will not be considered".

Somehow, I doubt that is the case.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Seastallion

[sdanielmcev]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

In USA and other western countries, just because it's a private institution doesn't mean it can discriminate against gays by refusing to hire them.

Yes it does. And it is not discrimination if it not up to a certain standard. Particularly teachers that hid their gayness, when as a standard they would not be hired in the first place.

Remember, I do not necessarily agree with it. But the first amendment trumps all others. That is why it is first.

By your rationale, it would be legal for an employer to advertise for a job and stipulate, "No gays". Or "Black people should not apply", or "Women will not be considered".

Somehow, I doubt that is the case.

'An employer' in this case is a religious institution, as opposed to 'any employer.' And, it is not my rationale. The first amendment protects the churches in the US. And, for the third time, I am not agreeing with their decision. Although why, unless the only employment available, would a gay person want to work for the Catholic Church, which strictly forbids homosexuality, is beyond me.

[SheungWan]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

If being gay prevented one from being a member of the church then why was there a systematic cover up of priests suspected of child abuse over a period of decades?

I think child abuse and being gay are 2 completely separate topics.

The priests were male and the abused were boys please do talk us through the suggestion that the priests weren't gay.

Edited August 11, 2015 by SheungWan

[cornishcarlos]

I don't necessarily agree with it, but you cannot belong to the Catholic Church if you are gay. As much as gays have a right to protest, the Catholic Church has the right to hire or fire who it wants. It is a private institution.

If being gay prevented one from being a member of the church then why was there a systematic cover up of priests suspected of child abuse over a period of decades?

I think child abuse and being gay are 2 completely separate topics.

The priests were male and the abused were boys please do talk us through the suggestion that the priests weren't gay.

Not sure I really want to get into this but here we go, just one reply though

I believe child abuse is exactly that, abuse. People involved are probably getting off more on the abuse of power than the actual sex, it could be with a girl or boy. Priests just happen to have more access to boys.

Being gay does not mean your are attracted to children.

That will do... Hope that helps answer your condescending question !

[Jingthing]

Yes, there are plenty of Catholic gay priests who are into adults. I would know.

[SheungWan]

Not sure I really want to get into this but here we go, just one reply though

I believe child abuse is exactly that, abuse. People involved are probably getting off more on the abuse of power than the actual sex, it could be with a girl or boy. Priests just happen to have more access to boys.

Being gay does not mean your are attracted to children.

That will do... Hope that helps answer your condescending question !

'Being gay does not mean your are attracted to children.' Agree and I am not arguing that. What I am arguing is that gays who are attracted to children and abused them were not excluded from the Church once the Church discovered their activities.

[cornishcarlos]

Not sure I really want to get into this but here we go, just one reply though

I believe child abuse is exactly that, abuse. People involved are probably getting off more on the abuse of power than the actual sex, it could be with a girl or boy. Priests just happen to have more access to boys.

Being gay does not mean your are attracted to children.

That will do... Hope that helps answer your condescending question !

'Being gay does not mean your are attracted to children.' Agree and I am not arguing that. What I am arguing is that gays who are attracted to children and abused them were not excluded from the Church once the Church discovered their activities.

No, paedophiles were not excluded from the church once the church discovered their activities.

I doubt many of them were gay but just twisted..

Damn, that's 2 replies.. See what you did

[SheungWan]

Not sure I really want to get into this but here we go, just one reply though

I believe child abuse is exactly that, abuse. People involved are probably getting off more on the abuse of power than the actual sex, it could be with a girl or boy. Priests just happen to have more access to boys.

Being gay does not mean your are attracted to children.

That will do... Hope that helps answer your condescending question !

'Being gay does not mean your are attracted to children.' Agree and I am not arguing that. What I am arguing is that gays who are attracted to children and abused them were not excluded from the Church once the Church discovered their activities.

No, paedophiles were not excluded from the church once the church discovered their activities.

I doubt many of them were gay but just twisted..

Damn, that's 2 replies.. See what you did

Sorry about that. Anyway as for the 'just twisted' observation, give me a break!

[Scott]

Continued discussion of pedophilia will result in suspensions. This issue has been covered ad nauseum in other threads. This is a case of two adult women who are married. There is no indication that the teacher has demonstrated any sexual interest in children.

Back to the topic of this thread, please.