Shopping with bank card / exchange rates beware

[jacko45k]

They are applying an exchange at the point of sale, you should be able to just pay in baht. If they won't let you do this, take the cash out via ATM or bank counter services and pay in cash.

I wouldn't buy from there either though, if they refused to let me pay in baht.

I don't understand.

He did pay in baht.

I have only ever been offered to pay in £ or local currency in airport duty free shops, but admittedly do not use my UK CC or Debit cards outside of the UK very much.

You pay in baht and Visa set the exchange rate.

Even had he used the ATM the exchange rate would have been set by Visa, plus 180 baht local charge.

Thai banks are starting to apply an over the counter fee.

Uh, no, he didn't. He was told the price in THB and then paid in GBP which was why the exchange rate was applied as it was instead of simply converted on his monthly statement. As noted previously in the thread, it's called Dynamic Currency Conversion and if you find yourself in this situation you should always refuse to pay in the your own currency....pay in THB.

Said he paid approx 7000 baht so I was misled by that.

Something to beware of I guess.

[Pib]

OP,

I expect on the Receipt for Signature they had you sign that receipt showed pounds and baht....both currencies shown although one may have been in slightly smaller print such as the pounds amount. The receipt they give you afterwards may not show both currencies, only baht....already covering their tracks with the customer that they just ripped off via lower exchange rate set by the merchant/local processing bank. When a receipt of signature shows both the currency your card is denominated in (i.e., pounds, dollars, euros, etc) "and" baht/the local currency that is a DCC transaction and will generally be around 3 to 4 % lower than the Visa/Mastercard/card network exchange rate. And of course if your home country card-issuing bank applies a foreign transaction fee your bank may still apply that fee not because the Visa/Mastercard network was involved in the exchange but simply because it was a foreign transaction in whatever currency.

It's purely up to the merchant/store if they attempt the DCC ripoff or not. The DCC rate will be the DCC rate established by the local "processing bank" they use like Bankgok Bank, K-Bank, SCB, whatever Thai bank to process the transacion...the name of the bank you see on the receipt they give you. In turn the local processing bank interfaces with the Visa/Mastercard network which in turn interfaces with your bank/credit card company. When a DCC transaction occurs the merchant makes a nice extra profit of 3-4% via lower exchange rate and the local processing bank makes a profit from the DCC exchange rate spread they use. The card networks frown on the use of DCC but they allow it and it's legal...on their websites usually in their Q&A areas they will talk about DCC and what options you have to a merchant wants to do a DCC transaction. And believe it or not Visa/Mastercard has been sued in some cases by local banking organizations/merchant organizations and western govt agencies to allow greater access in local banks/merchants who interface with the Visa/Mastercard networks to allow less restrictive use (less notification to the customer) of DCC transactions....the law suits are are based on anti-competitive reasons where they say use of Visa/Matercard exchange rates does allow the local bank/merchant to offer a competitive exchange rate. Yea, right, if you can call a lower rate a competitive rate. Anyway, it's legal and in use around the world for purchases (in store and online) and ATM transactions. Customer beware.

Once again, when you see both your home county currency and baht on the Receipt for Signature, that is a DCC transaction. It's happen to me twice at a Global House store. First time it happen over year ago I spotted both currencies being reflected on the receipt they needed me to sign, I saw this is a DCC transaction due to both currencies being reflected on the receipt, I tell them cancel and redo in baht only, they say no can charge in baht even with supervisor involved in the conversation...the supervisor also tried to call HQ Global in Bangkok with negative results...said it HQ policy in a memo they got...I said cancel the transaction if you will not charge in baht...they cancelled the transaction...I left the store.

That night I filed a complaint on the HQ Global website...two days later I got a call from HQ Global saying the store had made a mistake...a store training issue...please go back and make the purchase and they will gladly process the purchase in Thai baht. I didn't go back immediately since the store is around 35Km away. A few months later I went to the store again...once again they would only do a DCC transaction...I said HQ Global said they were wrong...told them about the previous incident...once again the supervisor (different supervisor this time) tried to call HQ Global but got no answer after repeated calls...it was a Sunday for HQ Global in Bangkok was probably closed. Once again I had them cancel the transaction. Didn't buy anything from them on those two transactions...could have easily paid in cash or Thai bank debit card but it was the principal of the thing...that principle a merchant trying to rip me off with a lower exchange rate that just fattens their profit margin even more.

I refuse to do business with a merchant that will only accomplish a DCC transaction on a foreign card as they are simply charging a foreigner more....I've only run into two so far in my buys in the Bangkok area (but I'm sure they are more out there)...Global (and up to two years ago they didn't do DCC) and a major tile/hardware outlet here in Bangkok. Now, it's up to the merchant whether he uses DCC or not...purely up to the merchant...but if the merchant is part of large chain that individual merchant may have to follow what the corporate HQ policy is. I've read few post over the last year or so that some Tesco Lotus stores attempt/default to DCC unless you tell them to "charge in Thai baht" before handing them your card....I've never experienced that at any Lotus Stores and I use my foreign cards almost daily here in Bangkok and the surrounding area....so if those DCC posts about Lotus were true then that was the local manager of that Lotus making the decision to default to DCC for foriegn cards; not HQ Lotus Thailand. Based on my experience HomePro and Pizza Company are two other stores that apparently default to charging DCC unless you tell them to charge Thai baht...but they don't argue with you or say no can do...they will charge in Thai baht no problem if you tell them. But there are a few merchants which will only do DCC transaction with foreign cards--in my opinion they are simply ripping off farangs with that attitude/policy...I refuse to do business with such merchants unless I absolutely don't have another choice.

Watch out for DCC when using ATMs also...and the ATM probably will not specifically call it a DCC transaction...they may use some vague, warm & fuzzy name to confuse a person into allowing the DCC versus declining which takes you to the next screen where you get the higher Visa/Mastercard rate. Once again, all legal. Folks with Mastercards seemed to get offered the DCC transaction choice frequently, but Visa folks generally don't. All of my foreign debit cards are Visa cards and I've never been offered a DCC transaction at the various Thai ATMs I use.

Yeap, DCC bad for the customer but good for the merchant. Just don't do business with merchants who will only do DCC transactions unless you absolutely have to.

[rak sa_ngop]

As earlier posters have pointed out, the Mastercard & Visa Dynamic Currency Conversions are inevitably done at a rate that is very disadvantageous to the customer, even accounting for typical "foreign exchange transaction fees" of 3% charged by the card-issuing bank.

Merchants can be quite aggressive and/or sneaky when trying to coerce customers into choosing DCC, which makes me wonder if they are sharing in the profits of this swindle. On more than one occasion (in both Singapore and Macau), I have declined DCC, only to then be handed a charge slip on which DCC has been selected. Big hassle getting the transactions voided and re-issued in local currency. And merchants always trying to tell me that DCC is "better". <deleted>.

Exactly. Always go with the local currency when using cards. Use a currency converter on your phone at checkout to see the difference in home money and local.

What you are missing here is that even though there is a difference between the local price and the home price, you will lose most of this advantage after the home bank has applied its foreign transaction fee (or whatever it is called by your bank).

With my Natwest Mastercard I am pretty sure that when I had a large hospital bill a number of years ago I saved a lot of money by paying in baht. But now recently when I booked some hotel rooms it worked out pretty much the same paying the local rate or the UK rate (because of the additional fee charged separately)

Some (few) banks do not apply this charge as has been pointed out already.

[misterphil]

As earlier posters have pointed out, the Mastercard & Visa Dynamic Currency Conversions are inevitably done at a rate that is very disadvantageous to the customer, even accounting for typical "foreign exchange transaction fees" of 3% charged by the card-issuing bank.

Merchants can be quite aggressive and/or sneaky when trying to coerce customers into choosing DCC, which makes me wonder if they are sharing in the profits of this swindle. On more than one occasion (in both Singapore and Macau), I have declined DCC, only to then be handed a charge slip on which DCC has been selected. Big hassle getting the transactions voided and re-issued in local currency. And merchants always trying to tell me that DCC is "better". <deleted>.

Exactly. Always go with the local currency when using cards. Use a currency converter on your phone at checkout to see the difference in home money and local.

What you are missing here is that even though there is a difference between the local price and the home price, you will lose most of this advantage after the home bank has applied its foreign transaction fee (or whatever it is called by your bank).

With my Natwest Mastercard I am pretty sure that when I had a large hospital bill a number of years ago I saved a lot of money by paying in baht. But now recently when I booked some hotel rooms it worked out pretty much the same paying the local rate or the UK rate (because of the additional fee charged separately)

Some (few) banks do not apply this charge as has been pointed out already.

NO! Im not missing anything at all. I don't pay foreign transactions with my credit card and I get bank of England exchange rates. See my post #23

[Pib]

My UK Nationwide Visa Credit Card uses the London Foreign Exchange market. If my XE currency converter says that the exchange rate is 1GBP to 54.52 baht, then thats what I get. I also don't get charged any overseas transaction fees.

However today I was in a certain High End HiFi shop in Pattaya and they wanted to charge me 2% for using a Foreign credit card. I made up some crap about my UK bank charge me 8% for using my credit card abroad and told them its not worth it, and i'd have to think about it and come back later. The guy phoned his boss and he told me OK, if I buy now with my credit card he'll give me 10% off the speakers and 5% off the stands.

They try it on and you just have to be careful.

Yes you are missing something. I don't know who told you your Nationwide Visa card gives the London Foreign Exchange market rate...but whoever it was wait until he sobers-up and then ask him again. If he still says the same thing, then he is wrong again. You get the Visa exchange rate minus any foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may apply...none in the case of your Nationwide card. And of course this assumes you didn't do a DCC transaction which you didn't.

You also have to understand for a "credit card" purchase the applicable Visa exchange rate is not applied until the transaction "posts" to your account...it will not be the day of purchase because a credit card transaction typically takes 1 to 2 "business" days to post (finalize) and that is when the final exchange rate is applied. But posting can take longer depending how fast (or slow) the merchant/his local processing bank completes the follow-on transaction posting/clearing process. A debit card is different...it posts same day of purchase. Debit and credit cards just process a little differently.

In your case you bought the item on 5 Aug (as shown on your card statement), but the transactions did not post until 7 Aug...2 business days later which is typical. Actual transaction date and posting dates are different...I know on my card statements (not NW but typical of card statements) there are two date columns...one which shows transaction date, one that shows posting date, and it will also show a statement in the description area mentioning the transaction date again and exchange rate just like in the image you provided. But remember that exchange rate is for the "posting" date; not the actual transaction date in case of a credit card.

How do I know it didn't post to 7 Aug? Well, because like I said it typically takes 1 to 2 business days for a credit card transaction to post, when it posted it showed an exchange rate of 54.5214 (carrying it to 4 decimal points is far enough...2 is far enough) per your post, and when you look at the Visa exchange rate for 7 Aug (2 business days later) it was 54.5214--the same rate you got. Although your bank and Visa carry out the exchange rate to 8 to 10 decimals points, your bank must round/adjust the rate ever so slightly in order to make the charge hitting your account to only go two decimal points pounds-wise. See below snapshot for the 7 Aug Visa exchange rate for European bank issued cards....notice the rate matches to the rate you got to the fourth decimal point even after the bank's slight adjustment. Also here is the webpage link to the Visa Exchange Rate page for European bank issued Visa cards for future use: Link

[misterphil]

My UK Nationwide Visa Credit Card uses the London Foreign Exchange market. If my XE currency converter says that the exchange rate is 1GBP to 54.52 baht, then thats what I get. I also don't get charged any overseas transaction fees.

However today I was in a certain High End HiFi shop in Pattaya and they wanted to charge me 2% for using a Foreign credit card. I made up some crap about my UK bank charge me 8% for using my credit card abroad and told them its not worth it, and i'd have to think about it and come back later. The guy phoned his boss and he told me OK, if I buy now with my credit card he'll give me 10% off the speakers and 5% off the stands.

They try it on and you just have to be careful.

Yes you are missing something. I don't know who told you your Nationwide Visa card gives the London Foreign Exchange market rate...but whoever it was wait until he sobers-up and then ask him again. If he still says the same thing, then he is wrong again. You get the Visa exchange rate minus any foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may apply...none in the case of your Nationwide card. And of course this assumes you didn't do a DCC transaction which you didn't.

You also have to understand for a "credit card" purchase the applicable Visa exchange rate is not applied until the transaction "posts" to your account...it will not be the day of purchase because a credit card transaction typically takes 1 to 2 "business" days to post (finalize) and that is when the final exchange rate is applied. But posting can take longer depending how fast (or slow) the merchant/his local processing bank completes the follow-on transaction posting/clearing process. A debit card is different...it posts same day of purchase. Debit and credit cards just process a little differently.

In your case you bought the item on 5 Aug (as shown on your card statement), but the transactions did not post until 7 Aug...2 business days later which is typical. Actual transaction date and posting dates are different...I know on my card statements (not NW but typical of card statements) there are two date columns...one which shows transaction date, one that shows posting date, and it will also show a statement in the description area mentioning the transaction date again and exchange rate just like in the image you provided. But remember that exchange rate is for the "posting" date; not the actual transaction date in case of a credit card.

How do I know it didn't post to 7 Aug? Well, because like I said it typically takes 1 to 2 business days for a credit card transaction to post, when it posted it showed an exchange rate of 54.5214 (carrying it to 4 decimal points is far enough...2 is far enough) per your post, and when you look at the Visa exchange rate for 7 Aug (2 business days later) it was 54.5214--the same rate you got. Although your bank and Visa carry out the exchange rate to 8 to 10 decimals points, your bank must round/adjust the rate ever so slightly in order to make the charge hitting your account to only go two decimal points pounds-wise. See below snapshot for the 7 Aug Visa exchange rate for European bank issued cards....notice the rate matches to the rate you got to the fourth decimal point even after the bank's slight adjustment. Also here is the webpage link to the Visa Exchange Rate page for European bank issued Visa cards for future use: Link

Capture.JPG

Im not missing anything. I got 54.52 and the OP got 51

By the way, you have too much time on your hands to write all that crap when Im already right about what I wrote.

[Pib]

You're right about your Visa card using the London Foreign Exchange market rate versus the Visa exchange rate?

Anyway, here's a couple of snapshots from the NW credit cards area showing what rate they use (i.e, the Visa Europe rate) and also touches on how the rate given is based on the posting date and not the transaction/purchase date. And when going to the last link in the snapshot it gives an example (2nd snapshot) where once again it says the Visa exchange rate is used.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Pib

[superal]

My UK Nationwide Visa Credit Card uses the London Foreign Exchange market. If my XE currency converter says that the exchange rate is 1GBP to 54.52 baht, then thats what I get. I also don't get charged any overseas transaction fees.

However today I was in a certain High End HiFi shop in Pattaya and they wanted to charge me 2% for using a Foreign credit card. I made up some crap about my UK bank charge me 8% for using my credit card abroad and told them its not worth it, and i'd have to think about it and come back later. The guy phoned his boss and he told me OK, if I buy now with my credit card he'll give me 10% off the speakers and 5% off the stands.

They try it on and you just have to be careful.

Yes you are missing something. I don't know who told you your Nationwide Visa card gives the London Foreign Exchange market rate...but whoever it was wait until he sobers-up and then ask him again. If he still says the same thing, then he is wrong again. You get the Visa exchange rate minus any foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may apply...none in the case of your Nationwide card. And of course this assumes you didn't do a DCC transaction which you didn't.

You also have to understand for a "credit card" purchase the applicable Visa exchange rate is not applied until the transaction "posts" to your account...it will not be the day of purchase because a credit card transaction typically takes 1 to 2 "business" days to post (finalize) and that is when the final exchange rate is applied. But posting can take longer depending how fast (or slow) the merchant/his local processing bank completes the follow-on transaction posting/clearing process. A debit card is different...it posts same day of purchase. Debit and credit cards just process a little differently.

In your case you bought the item on 5 Aug (as shown on your card statement), but the transactions did not post until 7 Aug...2 business days later which is typical. Actual transaction date and posting dates are different...I know on my card statements (not NW but typical of card statements) there are two date columns...one which shows transaction date, one that shows posting date, and it will also show a statement in the description area mentioning the transaction date again and exchange rate just like in the image you provided. But remember that exchange rate is for the "posting" date; not the actual transaction date in case of a credit card.

How do I know it didn't post to 7 Aug? Well, because like I said it typically takes 1 to 2 business days for a credit card transaction to post, when it posted it showed an exchange rate of 54.5214 (carrying it to 4 decimal points is far enough...2 is far enough) per your post, and when you look at the Visa exchange rate for 7 Aug (2 business days later) it was 54.5214--the same rate you got. Although your bank and Visa carry out the exchange rate to 8 to 10 decimals points, your bank must round/adjust the rate ever so slightly in order to make the charge hitting your account to only go two decimal points pounds-wise. See below snapshot for the 7 Aug Visa exchange rate for European bank issued cards....notice the rate matches to the rate you got to the fourth decimal point even after the bank's slight adjustment. Also here is the webpage link to the Visa Exchange Rate page for European bank issued Visa cards for future use: Link

Capture.JPG

Im not missing anything. I got 54.52 and the OP got 51

By the way, you have too much time on your hands to write all that crap when Im already right about what I wrote.

, Sorry guys but this reply made me laugh , didn't realise the topic could be so informative , what an eye opener

[misterphil]

You're right about your Visa card using the London Foreign Exchange market rate versus the Visa exchange rate?

Anyway, here's a couple of snapshots from the NW credit cards area showing what rate they use (i.e, the Visa Europe rate) and also touches on how the rate given is based on the posting date and not the transaction/purchase date. And when going to the last link in the snapshot it gives an example (2nd snapshot) where once again it says the Visa exchange rate is used.

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

You need to stop sniffing glue.

[misterphil]

My UK Nationwide Visa Credit Card uses the London Foreign Exchange market. If my XE currency converter says that the exchange rate is 1GBP to 54.52 baht, then thats what I get. I also don't get charged any overseas transaction fees.

However today I was in a certain High End HiFi shop in Pattaya and they wanted to charge me 2% for using a Foreign credit card. I made up some crap about my UK bank charge me 8% for using my credit card abroad and told them its not worth it, and i'd have to think about it and come back later. The guy phoned his boss and he told me OK, if I buy now with my credit card he'll give me 10% off the speakers and 5% off the stands.

They try it on and you just have to be careful.

Yes you are missing something. I don't know who told you your Nationwide Visa card gives the London Foreign Exchange market rate...but whoever it was wait until he sobers-up and then ask him again. If he still says the same thing, then he is wrong again. You get the Visa exchange rate minus any foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may apply...none in the case of your Nationwide card. And of course this assumes you didn't do a DCC transaction which you didn't.

You also have to understand for a "credit card" purchase the applicable Visa exchange rate is not applied until the transaction "posts" to your account...it will not be the day of purchase because a credit card transaction typically takes 1 to 2 "business" days to post (finalize) and that is when the final exchange rate is applied. But posting can take longer depending how fast (or slow) the merchant/his local processing bank completes the follow-on transaction posting/clearing process. A debit card is different...it posts same day of purchase. Debit and credit cards just process a little differently.

In your case you bought the item on 5 Aug (as shown on your card statement), but the transactions did not post until 7 Aug...2 business days later which is typical. Actual transaction date and posting dates are different...I know on my card statements (not NW but typical of card statements) there are two date columns...one which shows transaction date, one that shows posting date, and it will also show a statement in the description area mentioning the transaction date again and exchange rate just like in the image you provided. But remember that exchange rate is for the "posting" date; not the actual transaction date in case of a credit card.

How do I know it didn't post to 7 Aug? Well, because like I said it typically takes 1 to 2 business days for a credit card transaction to post, when it posted it showed an exchange rate of 54.5214 (carrying it to 4 decimal points is far enough...2 is far enough) per your post, and when you look at the Visa exchange rate for 7 Aug (2 business days later) it was 54.5214--the same rate you got. Although your bank and Visa carry out the exchange rate to 8 to 10 decimals points, your bank must round/adjust the rate ever so slightly in order to make the charge hitting your account to only go two decimal points pounds-wise. See below snapshot for the 7 Aug Visa exchange rate for European bank issued cards....notice the rate matches to the rate you got to the fourth decimal point even after the bank's slight adjustment. Also here is the webpage link to the Visa Exchange Rate page for European bank issued Visa cards for future use: Link

Capture.JPG

Im not missing anything. I got 54.52 and the OP got 51

By the way, you have too much time on your hands to write all that crap when Im already right about what I wrote.

, Sorry guys but this reply made me laugh , didn't realise the topic could be so informative , what an eye opener

If it made you laugh then give it a like.

Thanks

[misterphil]

You're right about your Visa card using the London Foreign Exchange market rate versus the Visa exchange rate?

Anyway, here's a couple of snapshots from the NW credit cards area showing what rate they use (i.e, the Visa Europe rate) and also touches on how the rate given is based on the posting date and not the transaction/purchase date. And when going to the last link in the snapshot it gives an example (2nd snapshot) where once again it says the Visa exchange rate is used.

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

Too much time on your hands.

Like I said I got 54 and the OP got 51.

[Pib]

You're right about your Visa card using the London Foreign Exchange market rate versus the Visa exchange rate?

Anyway, here's a couple of snapshots from the NW credit cards area showing what rate they use (i.e, the Visa Europe rate) and also touches on how the rate given is based on the posting date and not the transaction/purchase date. And when going to the last link in the snapshot it gives an example (2nd snapshot) where once again it says the Visa exchange rate is used.

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

You need to stop sniffing glue.

You need to pay more attention to your replies...you posted your comment "You need to stop sniffing glue" (as shown above) into my post making it look like I said that...but you said it. Now that's what can happen when some one does sniff glue.

So are you now saying the NW snapshots are incorrect about their own credit cards? That is, they don't use the Visa rate? Just exactly what are you saying regarding the exchange rate you get with your NW credit card? Be sure to post your reply correctly.

[Pib]

You're right about your Visa card using the London Foreign Exchange market rate versus the Visa exchange rate?

Anyway, here's a couple of snapshots from the NW credit cards area showing what rate they use (i.e, the Visa Europe rate) and also touches on how the rate given is based on the posting date and not the transaction/purchase date. And when going to the last link in the snapshot it gives an example (2nd snapshot) where once again it says the Visa exchange rate is used.

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

Too much time on your hands.

Like I said I got 54 and the OP got 51.

OK fine...I moved your comments to under your name. Yes, you are getting the Visa exchange rates (without checking those additional dates you just included...and the rate you get is based on the "posting date" which occurs a day or two after the actual transaction rate.

[misterphil]

You're right about your Visa card using the London Foreign Exchange market rate versus the Visa exchange rate?

Anyway, here's a couple of snapshots from the NW credit cards area showing what rate they use (i.e, the Visa Europe rate) and also touches on how the rate given is based on the posting date and not the transaction/purchase date. And when going to the last link in the snapshot it gives an example (2nd snapshot) where once again it says the Visa exchange rate is used.

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

Too much time on your hands.

Like I said I got 54 and the OP got 51.

OK fine...I moved your comments to under your name. Yes, you are getting the Visa exchange rates (without checking those additional dates you just included...and the rate you get is based on the "posting date" which occurs a day or two after the actual transaction rate.

Still got 3 baht more then the OP. Whats the rate your bank gives you?

Oh and hows your blood pressure today?

[Pib]

Yeap, that's what happens in a DCC transaction. And practice some more on your replies as you are still putting them into the other person's reply...but you still have time to correct that....practice makes perfect.