Belgium: 'There has been too much tolerance for too long'

[webfact]

"There has been too much tolerance for too long"



BRUSSELS: -- Terror attacks on Charlie Hebdo, the Jewish Museum in Brussels, Madrid commuter trains, and now the latest in Paris all have links to one Brussels neighbourhood.

Molenbeek has a diverse immigrant population and suffers from high unemployment- some 40 percent of young people there are out of work.. It also has sent a higher proportion of its residents to fight in Syria than anywhere else in Europe.

“When you hear what happens, you’re shocked! When you see that it’s people around you, from your neighborhood, you ask yourself: ‘wow, what is going on here?’” one resident said.

The neighbourhood itself doesn’t appear to be particuarly downtrodden, with plenty of green spaces and large house.

Françoise Schepmans, Mayor of Molenbeek observes: “Daily life in Molenbeek works well – but that’s maybe what has fooled us: that in ordinary life, there are no difficulties. and next to that, there are people living in the shadow. and we have left them living in the shadow. we didn’t ask ourselves the right questions!’

However, most locals reject the borough’s portrayal as a jihadist breeding ground.

Yasmine Benhammou of ‘Médecine pour le peuple’, a Molenbeek medical centre said: “We are in a state of disarray. We condemn these attacks in the strongest possible terms. That said, the whole of Molenbeek is not guilty for what happened – and especially not to mix things up with religion because religion has never permitted anyone to the life of anyone else, whoever they are.”

Euronews interviewed Claude Moniquet, a former intelligence agent and cofounder of the European Strategic Intelligence and Security Center:

Euronews

Is Molenbeek, the hub of jihadist terrorism in Europe?

Claude Moniquet

No, it’s not the hub of European jihadism.

In a lot of French cases, for a long time, for 20 years, we find links to Brussels. We find links to Molenbeek. When I worked 20 years ago on Armed Islamic Group, which planted bombs in Paris, we found links to Molenbeek.

So yes, there is clearly a problem in Molenbeek which is due to the fact that there is a linguistic community and which is also close to France.

And so there needs to be mutual crackdown on Islamist movements on both sides of the border.

Euronews

Is there a Brussels, or Belgian problem in the fight against jihadism in Europe?

Claude Moniquet

This is a difficult situation, which is difficult to manage for everyone. For the French just as it is for the British or the Belgians.

There has been too much tolerance for too long and then without doubt too little means to tackle a threat today which is a huge threat.

Ten years ago, at the time of Al Qaida, we saw a Europe with a few hundred sympathisers towards Islamist terrorism.

Today the Islamic State has some 6000 to 7000 Europeans engaged in jihad or who want to be.

And perhaps 10 to 15,000 sympathisers. The scale of the threat has totally changed.

Euronews

The Belgian minister of the interior has said that he wants to cleanup Molenbeek. What is trying to do with these words?

Claude Moniquet

I think the term clean up was a poor choice.

There’s a local problem in Molenbeek, which is the fact that in a difficult commune, local authorities have for political and electoral reasons allowed a situation to develop which is now out of control. They’s really discouraged the local police by forbidding them for doing certain things, certain investigations, certain checks and surveillance.

In Mons, Jambon said that a number of decisions taken last January and which should have been carried out by the police, were not done so in Molenbeek.

So clearly I think as the minister of interior has decided to take his responsibilities and impose himself on the police in Molenbeek and run it as the police is run in other countries and cities in Belgium.

Euronews

Regarding the measures that we could put in place against this type of attack in Europe, what do you think.

Claude Moniquet

What’s needed are strong legal measures. In France, that’s what will happen. There will be a series of measures, including without any doubt surveillance measures.

Maybe some kind of house arrests and if the situation worsens still, detention without trial, which would be applied against certain people.

Belgium doesn’t have the same legal framework so Belgium won’t lock 500 people tomorrow, just like that. It’s impossible.

But I believe what’s possible in Belgium is an ongoing debate on voting in laws that will allow for the systematic criminalisation of those people who come back from Syria.

It’s not the case today. Today, you have to prove that someone committed such a crime in such a place on such a day against such a person. It’s clearly impossible.

Euronews

What do you think about the possibility of having a centralised European intelligence service? A centralized intelligence service?

Claude Moniquet

Inteligence is something very complicated which is not practiced int he same way in every country.

On the one hand you have very liberal countries, such as the Scandinavian countries or the Netherlands.

On the other, you have France and the UK. You don’t have the same way of working.

The French and the British have very offensive-minded secret services which act abroad, in an illegal manner, which allows them to carry out targeted assasinations.

Something the Danish, the Swedes, the Belgians or Luxembourgers will never do.

We don’t have the same methods and we don’t have the same culture of spying. And a general point, a reluctance to share secrets. We are there to obtain secrets not share them.

-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2015-11-17

[Steely Dan]

When I worked in Brussels over 20 years ago a female work college got off the tram at Molenbeek by mistake. She had stones thrown at her by middle aged Arabic men, who evidently disapproved of her attire. A friend there was robbed at gunpoint in the local park. My girlfriend was working in a newsagents when the shop was robbed by immigrants with guns. My appartment was broken into, twice. The joys of living in enriched areas, obviously an experience not shared by pious and sanctimonious multiculturalists.

[Nemesis7]

Sounds like Harlem in NY to me.

[ban muang farang]

All I know is that I am pretty much all Muslim'd out. I am just sick of waking up every morning and reading of more death and destruction from Islam. Does anyone have the answer how to stop this cycle of violence..?

[zaphod reborn]

Sounds like Harlem in NY to me.

Harlem has improved quite a bit. More like Compton in LA.

[crankshaft]

For a start kick them all off welfare and no more free housing.....second shut down all the mosques

There is 40% unemployment only because they don't want to work.

[Jonathon]

Haven't they been to Bradford yet?

[Jonmarleesco]

For a start kick them all off welfare and no more free housing.....second shut down all the mosques

There is 40% unemployment only because they don't want to work.

Shutting down the mosques; now there's a thought. Welcoming immigrants, refugee or otherwise, into our communities should not mean welcoming them, lock, stock and religious accoutrements. They want the mosques, they remain in their Muslim homeland; they want the western way of life, they worship as they wish, at home, but without the benefit of a local mosque.

[Peterphuket]

Haven't they been to Bradford yet?

It makes no difference where you have been in Europe, now most of the countrys there are all in the same sh*t.

And the reason? Our leadership who's multicultural glorified.

For me one of the important reasons to leave Europe has left as whole.

However, when you live in the south part of Thailand, you'll see the same problems again.

[h90]

When I worked in Brussels over 20 years ago a female work college got off the tram at Molenbeek by mistake. She had stones thrown at her by middle aged Arabic men, who evidently disapproved of her attire. A friend there was robbed at gunpoint in the local park. My girlfriend was working in a newsagents when the shop was robbed by immigrants with guns. My appartment was broken into, twice. The joys of living in enriched areas, obviously an experience not shared by pious and sanctimonious multiculturalists.

in the middle of Europe and that was never found in any of these PC newspapers and all the feminists were also busy elsewhere.....

[cooked]

Nice word in german: 'Toleranzromantiker'. Who can't guess what it means?

[h90]

Nice word in german: 'Toleranzromantiker'. Who can't guess what it means?

I understand it....someone romantic about tolerance.....might not make much sense in English....well doesn't make sense in German as well.

But there are people who are in competition who is more political correct and tolerant.

Usually the same people who want more equality for gender, more gay/lesbian/trans rights ....that Islamist have complete different ideas about these topics isn't really recognized....

[Thorgal]

For a start kick them all off welfare and no more free housing.....second shut down all the mosques

There is 40% unemployment only because they don't want to work.

well that may help you in your research

Mullah Krekar is from Norway, and behind bars. He's dangerous.

His Belgian copy is Fouad Belkacem. Also crazy and dangerous and behind bars.

[smedly]

For a start kick them all off welfare and no more free housing.....second shut down all the mosques

There is 40% unemployment only because they don't want to work.

remove them from Christian countries

[cooked]

For a start kick them all off welfare and no more free housing.....second shut down all the mosques

There is 40% unemployment only because they don't want to work.

well that may help you in your research

Mullah Krekar is from Norway, and behind bars. He's dangerous.

His Belgian copy is Fouad Belkacem. Also crazy and dangerous and behind bars.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1447759164.806562.jpg

.. which is the best place for them to form new coalitions with other Muslims.

[Skeptic7]

All I know is that I am pretty much all Muslim'd out. I am just sick of waking up every morning and reading of more death and destruction from Islam. Does anyone have the answer how to stop this cycle of violence..?

What took so long? I"ve been Muslim'd out for at least 14 years, 2 months and 6 days.

[stickylies]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[Gene1960]

Sounds like Harlem in NY to me.

Harlem is generally safer.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mosha]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

As for the UK it was the capitalist mill owners who could not accept the industry was screwed. Now someone explain why supermarkets are buying Halal food to appease 4% of the population.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Mosha

[norfolkandchance]

A lot more of famous Belgians now then

[baboon]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

As for the UK it was the capitalist mill owners who could not accept the industry was screwed. Now someone explain why supermarkets are buying Halal food to appease 4% of the population.

To appease the 4% most likely to kick off? The squeakiest door gets the most oil and all that?

[NeverSure]

Oh Lord,

Grant me one cent for every time that I have said, "How long must we tolerate the intolerant?"

In my youth, the local football club would have gone down there and straightened them all out. Now however, they are protected by some very misguided multiculturalists who understand nothing whatsoever of differing cultures. Except for the fact that they will look cool sitting out the front of a foreign restaurant.

Those of us who are "intolerant" may prove to have been right. Those of us who have remained prepared to fight in the streets if necessary may will also prove to have been right.

This isn't your grandmother's world any more.

Cheers.

Edited November 17, 2015 by NeverSure

[bangon04]

For a start kick them all off welfare and no more free housing.....second shut down all the mosques

There is 40% unemployment only because they don't want to work.

Shutting down the mosques; now there's a thought. Welcoming immigrants, refugee or otherwise, into our communities should not mean welcoming them, lock, stock and religious accoutrements. They want the mosques, they remain in their Muslim homeland; they want the western way of life, they worship as they wish, at home, but without the benefit of a local mosque.

"So yes, there is clearly a problem in Molenbeek which is due to the fact that there is a linguistic community"

In other words, a whole group of people who have no intention of assimilating, and see it as their right to make Belgium more similar to the (failed) countries they ran away from.

[sead]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

When did we import/ invite anyone from a muslim country. In 1965 we started with italians,greeks, Spaniards and balkan countries to work in our heavy industries. Then next generation were when Poland, lithuania, estonia etc were welcomed to the european union. Dont remember any of them being a muslim country but correct me please.

Any grammatical errors are a gift from me to you

[Thorgal]

For a start kick them all off welfare and no more free housing.....second shut down all the mosques

There is 40% unemployment only because they don't want to work.

well that may help you in your research

Mullah Krekar is from Norway, and behind bars. He's dangerous.

His Belgian copy is Fouad Belkacem. Also crazy and dangerous and behind bars.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1447759164.806562.jpg

.. which is the best place for them to form new coalitions with other Muslims.

Correct, but expulsion back to their original country could be at least have similar results, if not exponential.

Problems with these people are threefold : sociologic, judicial and constitutional.

They aren't integrated at all and they benefit of a judicial system with more advantages than in their home countries. Furthermore, the constitutional rights in the host country are not updated for these public security threats.

Governments should put/force these people in extra-judicial gray zones and act differently. Prisons won't work.

It's known that they had a major pivotal role in the recruitment process for fresh Jihadi recruitments to fight in Iraq, Syria and/or Lybia.

It's known that they are the instigators in the mosques and public places.

It's known that they aren't moderate Muslims and that they idolate Takfiri/Salafist/Muslim Brotherhood doctrines.

[Thorgal]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

When did we import/ invite anyone from a muslim country. In 1965 we started with italians,greeks, Spaniards and balkan countries to work in our heavy industries. Then next generation were when Poland, lithuania, estonia etc were welcomed to the european union. Dont remember any of them being a muslim country but correct me please.

Any grammatical errors are a gift from me to you

Massive immigration from Maghreb countries followed just after their respective decolonisation. But was not always evident.

On 17th October 1961 many Arab/Muslim protesters against French colonial empire were thrown in the Seine, in Paris by French police forces under Pompidou.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

Just one of the reasons why the intelligence services are not coordinating today properly.

Turkish immigration started in the same period as the massive Italian immigration required for mainly European mining and construction industry.

Afgan, Kurdish, Lybian, Iraqi and Syrian immigration came after creation of conflict zones in their countries.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Thorgal

[sead]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

When did we import/ invite anyone from a muslim country. In 1965 we started with italians,greeks, Spaniards and balkan countries to work in our heavy industries. Then next generation were when Poland, lithuania, estonia etc were welcomed to the european union. Dont remember any of them being a muslim country but correct me please.

Any grammatical errors are a gift from me to you

Massive immigration from Maghreb countries followed just after their respective decolonisation. But was not always evident.

On 17th October 1961 many Arab/Muslim protesters against French colonial empire were thrown in the Seine, in Paris by French police forces under Pompidou.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

Just one of the reasons why the intelligence services are not coordinating today properly.

Turkish immigration started in the same period as the massive Italian immigration required for mainly European mining and construction industry.

Afgan, Kurdish, Lybian, Iraqi and Syrian immigration came after creation of conflict zones in their countries.

Ok. You're talking about France. I'm talking about the rest of europe. Seems totally normal to allow a former french colony to work in France. We didnt have any of those in sweden.denmark.norway.finland

Ty for that link. It was interesting to read

[jesimps]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

It wasn't the people who brought them in, it was the left-wing politicians wanting their votes. Mind you, those lefty voters must shoulder some of the responsibility. Also the present day muslim apeasers, some of whom use this site. They know who they are.

[Thorgal]

the funny thing is that the biggest cryers now are the people (generation) that imported these muslims, so they could do (heavy) jobs they, the whiners, didn't wanna do any longer...

i'm not PC nor socialist or muslim-lover at all, but the people who brought them in were only thinking about their own advantage/profit (cheap labour).... som nam na.

When did we import/ invite anyone from a muslim country. In 1965 we started with italians,greeks, Spaniards and balkan countries to work in our heavy industries. Then next generation were when Poland, lithuania, estonia etc were welcomed to the european union. Dont remember any of them being a muslim country but correct me please.

Any grammatical errors are a gift from me to you

Massive immigration from Maghreb countries followed just after their respective decolonisation. But was not always evident.

On 17th October 1961 many Arab/Muslim protesters against French colonial empire were thrown in the Seine, in Paris by French police forces under Pompidou.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

Just one of the reasons why the intelligence services are not coordinating today properly.

Turkish immigration started in the same period as the massive Italian immigration required for mainly European mining and construction industry.

Afgan, Kurdish, Lybian, Iraqi and Syrian immigration came after creation of conflict zones in their countries.

Ok. You're talking about France. I'm talking about the rest of europe. Seems totally normal to allow a former french colony to work in France. We didnt have any of those in sweden.denmark.norway.finland

Ty for that link. It was interesting to read

You can see it in the national football teams :

German Team :

Mezut Ozil : Turkish

Sami Kedhira : Tunisian

Ashkan Dejagah : Iranian

...

The Netherlands:

Khalid Boulahrouz : Morocco

Ibrahim Afellay : Morocco

Dries Boussatta : Morocco

Adam Maher : Morocco

...

Belgium :

Marrouane Fellaini : Morocco

Nacer Chadli : Morocco

France :

Zinedine Zidane : Algeria

Hatem Ben Arfa : Algeria

Karim Benzema : Algeria

Samir Nasri : Algeria

...

Frank Ribery : French Muslim

Switzerland :

Gokhan Inler : Turkish

Hakan Yakin : Turkish

...

I could also provide the politicians, but I won't upset people...the list is too long...

New generations need good examples, perhaps football and other sports can be integration motivators...

Edited November 17, 2015 by Thorgal