Turkey's NATO ambassador defends downing of Russian fighter jet

[webfact]

Turkey's NATO ambassador defends downing of Russian fighter jet



"Before they entered our airspace they were warned 10 times, within 5 minutes not to enter our airspace."s NATO ambassador defends downing of Russian fighter jet

BRUSSELS: -- Tensions are running high between Ankara and Moscow after Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet. To shed further light on the issue, euronews reporter Gülsüm Alan spoke to Mehmet Fatih Ceylan, Turkey’s ambassador to Nato.

Gülsüm Alan, euronews: “Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has described the incident as a planned provocation.
How do you react to that?

Mehmet Fatih Ceylan, Turkish Ambassador to NATO: “It is impossible to agree with the statement of Foreign Minister Lavrov. This is not a cold planned provocation by Turkey. Now let’s see what happened yesterday.

“First and foremost I have to make it clear that this incident took place in our airspace. There were two planes, they were warned 10 times within 5 minutes, 10 times, not to enter into Turkish airspace but they did, and when they entered and violated our airspace, then they were engaged by our F16s that were on patrol duty there. One left our airspace, but the other remained in our airspace, then it was shot down in our airspace, and fell in the adjacent Syrian territory.”

euronews: “17 seconds in Turkish airspace, is that really a reason to shot down a plane?”

MFC: “If you take into account the total length of their stay in our airspace, you have to multiply it by 4. So I mean if you just confine it to 17 seconds, that would be misleading, you have to multiply it, and taking into account that there was a second wave of violations, because in the first one they were warned, they left and they came back again in the second wave. And before they entered our airspace they were warned 10 times, within 5 minutes not to enter our airspace.”

euronews: “President Putin says Turkey opens the way to radicalisation and buys petrol from Islamic State militants. What is your reaction?”

MFC: “That is his view. Whatever we do, we do it in cooperation and consultation with our allies. Back in July, we provided our allies with the facilities to fight against Daesh. Daesh is an imminent threat to Turkish national security and that was said on various occasions, many times, by all Turkish authorities. And don’t forget Daesh also committed a terrorist attack in Turkey.”

euronews: “Where are relations between Russia and Turkey heading?”

MFC: “I think that it is in the interest of both Turkey and Russia to address such issues in candid terms, and that is what we are doing on many issues, on a variety of issues. There is no unanimity on many issues, there are certainly different opinions but that has not impeded Turkey and Russia from contacting and exchanging views in a candid manner. So let’s wait and see, let’s address this issue, which is a serious issue by the way, and you know, try to reach a common ground on that.”


-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2015-11-26

[BuaBS]

"Daesh is an imminent threat to Turkish national security and that was said on various occasions, many times, by all Turkish authorities."

[tigermoth]

If it was engaged by Turkish F16s then the accepted international procedure is to initially give a radio warning and if that is not heeded then you fly alongside the offending aircraft and visually make communication with the pilot and by accepted hand gestures tell him to scram. Your wingman is defending your back. Was this done? As reported one of the offending Russian jets left when the initial warnings were given. This is all very strange as a wingman never leaves his leader and vice versa. The whole story reeks of something very strange. The small part of Turkish territory that the Russians entered, if they did enter, would take seconds to cross, hardly reason for shooting one of their jets down especially in the fact that the russians are also attacking many ISIS targets. I suspect that maybe an error was initially made by the Russians entering a small part of Turkish airspace but as it only took seconds to cross decided to keep going, but a bigger error was made by someone in Turkey giving orders to shoot them down and now are trying to cover it up.

[craigt3365]

Interesting comment here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

He also noted that Turkey's actions were fully in line with the new rules of engagement adopted after Syria shot down a Turkish jet in 2012. The rules state that all "elements" approaching from Syria are considered an enemy threat.

And this:

US military officials said there were indications the downed plane entered Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds, and that it had been warned to stay out.

Seems the Russian pilot is not telling the truth. Warnings were given, they were bombing rebels supported by Turkey that are against Assad, and did enter Turkish airspace. All a recipe for disaster.

[Pakboong]

Interesting comment here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

He also noted that Turkey's actions were fully in line with the new rules of engagement adopted after Syria shot down a Turkish jet in 2012. The rules state that all "elements" approaching from Syria are considered an enemy threat.

And this:

US military officials said there were indications the downed plane entered Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds, and that it had been warned to stay out.

Seems the Russian pilot is not telling the truth. Warnings were given, they were bombing rebels supported by Turkey that are against Assad, and did enter Turkish airspace. All a recipe for disaster.

If the Russian plane was over Turkey for 17 seconds and traveled 1.15 miles, it had to be flying at stall speed.

Aassuming Turkey’s claim of a 17 second airspace violation is true, 17 seconds is not long enough for a Turkish pilot to get clearance for such a serious and reckless act as shooting down a Russian military aircraft. If the SU-24 was flying at a normal speed rather than one that would be unable to keep the aircraft aloft, the alleged airspace violation would not have been long enough to be noticed.

[craigt3365]

The Russians have been warned about airspace violations for a long time. Turkey issued warnings before these planes entered their airspace. They were ignored, crossed into Turkey, so shot down. Turkey has a zero tolerance for this after one of their planes was shot down by Syria along the same border. This was well known by Russia, but ignored. With fatal consequences.

Planes near the border are monitored by radar constantly. So they know exactly what's going on.

[HappyinNE]

Shooting down a foreign warplane for a 1.7 second infringement on its airspace Turkey was in Syrian airspace. If I was Russia I would make sure that Syria warns Turkey to stay out of its airspace and then Russia will shoot down Turkey aircraft that stray into Syria.

[Jimbo]

cant help but think of the russian assisted shooting down of the malaysian airline flight over the Ukraine.

[chilli42]

Nothing will come of this ... other than hard feelings. Nobody went to war when Russia shot down the Korean Air 747 and nobody is going to war over two dead pilots and a rescue marine. Clearly the Russians were going after targets that were glued to the Turkish border and possibly inside the Turkish border. They and their superiors badly miscalculated the Turkish response to even small incursions. Also let's face it, at the speed these jets travel it would be easy to miscalculate Turkish air space. Turkiye on the other hand seriously over reacted to the airspace incursion. Maybe they don't give a damn, they know there is zero that Russian can fo about this ... I don't think the Turks are short of oil and they certainly are not fond of Vodka. This will all blow over soon after the appropriate contrite political messages from Turkiye and threats from Russia. You can be sure there will be no further incursions of Turkish air space by Russia. In my opinion both sides behave dangerously and irresponsibly the result of which is three young men who will never have a chance to live out their lives ... sacrifed at the alter of politics ... what a f.....g waste!

[retarius]

There is something weird about this. A plane travelling 4 miles in 17 seconds is going approximately 16 miles a minute or 960 miles per hour. The track shown by the Turks shows that the Russian plane was not flying directly for Turkish airspace but was heading towards the appendix of land that it supposed flew over. IF warnings were radioed to the Russian plane 5 minutes before they attacked it, then they would have been issuing warnings when the plane was some 80 miles away from the Turkish border and not aiming for it. I think the Turks are lying.

[retarius]

The Russians have been warned about airspace violations for a long time. Turkey issued warnings before these planes entered their airspace. They were ignored, crossed into Turkey, so shot down. Turkey has a zero tolerance for this after one of their planes was shot down by Syria along the same border. This was well known by Russia, but ignored. With fatal consequences.

Planes near the border are monitored by radar constantly. So they know exactly what's going on.

Turkey violates Greek airspace on a daily basis....200 times last year (figures from the Greek military), and for a lot longer than 17 seconds.

[craigt3365]

The Russians have been warned about airspace violations for a long time. Turkey issued warnings before these planes entered their airspace. They were ignored, crossed into Turkey, so shot down. Turkey has a zero tolerance for this after one of their planes was shot down by Syria along the same border. This was well known by Russia, but ignored. With fatal consequences.

Planes near the border are monitored by radar constantly. So they know exactly what's going on.

Turkey violates Greek airspace on a daily basis....200 times last year (figures from the Greek military), and for a lot longer than 17 seconds.

Off topic. Please stick to the topic.

[ourmanflint]

If as they say the Russians were given 10 warnings in the 5 minutes before they crossed into Turkish airspace. Can someone who knows these things assess how far away from the Turkish border a russian plane would be if it was 5 minutes away? Must be a fair distance I would have thought, so seems unlikely they would be warned.

[simple1]

Interesting comment here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34912581

He also noted that Turkey's actions were fully in line with the new rules of engagement adopted after Syria shot down a Turkish jet in 2012. The rules state that all "elements" approaching from Syria are considered an enemy threat.

And this:

US military officials said there were indications the downed plane entered Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds, and that it had been warned to stay out.

Seems the Russian pilot is not telling the truth. Warnings were given, they were bombing rebels supported by Turkey that are against Assad, and did enter Turkish airspace. All a recipe for disaster.

Not forgetting that tribal Turkmen in the area also resist Daesh. Turkey had made it clear to Russia stop bombing ethnic Turkmen villages. The Russian bombing in the border areas also adds to the complexity of trying to establish safe zones for refugees, within Syria, paralleling the Turkish border. All those who cheer on Russia and at the same time vilify Syrian refugees need a reality check.

[MaxYakov]

Of course the Turks can produce information regarding the radio frequency and language that was used for the warnings and they can produce recordings of those warnings and the Russian crew['s acknowledgement ... NOT.

And of course they were strictly following NATO's rules of engagement ... NOT

Does anyone have info about what missile the F16 likely used and what countermeasures may have been available to the Su-24 crew?

Edited November 28, 2015 by MaxYakov

[derator01]

Please stick to the topic. This is not about Greece.

[craigt3365]

Of course the Turks can produce information regarding the radio frequency and language that was used for the warnings and they can produce recordings of those warnings and the Russian crew['s acknowledgement ... NOT.

And of course they were strictly following NATO's rules of engagement ... NOT

Does anyone have info about what missile the F16 likely used and what countermeasures may have been available to the Su-24 crew?

The US government has verified the Russian plane was verbally warned. And also verified it was hit while in Syrian airspace.

Turkey doesn't have to follow NATO's rules of engagement. Syria shot down one of their planes and since then, Syria has very specific and strict rules of engagement. Cross the border and you'll be shot down. Russia knew this and was warned many times about the airspace violations they've been making. The Russian response about the previous violation? It was a mistake. LOL

[TheCruncher]

Of course the Turks can produce information regarding the radio frequency and language that was used for the warnings and they can produce recordings of those warnings and the Russian crew['s acknowledgement ... NOT.

And of course they were strictly following NATO's rules of engagement ... NOT

Does anyone have info about what missile the F16 likely used and what countermeasures may have been available to the Su-24 crew?

The US government has verified the Russian plane was verbally warned. And also verified it was hit while in Syrian airspace.

Turkey doesn't have to follow NATO's rules of engagement. Syria shot down one of their planes and since then, Syria has very specific and strict rules of engagement. Cross the border and you'll be shot down. Russia knew this and was warned many times about the airspace violations they've been making. The Russian response about the previous violation? It was a mistake. LOL

But I'm sure the Turks were able to distinguish if it was a Russian or Syrian plane that was crossing the border.

When i notice at the incredible short timespan of 17 seconds that the plane was above Turkeys territory, I can get rid of the feeling that they were waiting for the plane, probably on the advice of an ally. And we all know who that would be. NOT?

[schlog]

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/newly-declassified-u-s-government-documents-the-west-supported-the-creation-of-isis.html

May have a look here in the documents by the US DIA for a better understanding of the whole mess in this region and the resulting actions. Follow the link and download the 7 pages document.

[simple1]

<snip>

Does anyone have info about what missile the F16 likely used and what countermeasures may have been available to the Su-24 crew?

Allegedly AIM 9 Sidewinder missile, claimed it offers outstanding resistance against infrared countermeasures.

[Thorgal]

Of course the Turks can produce information regarding the radio frequency and language that was used for the warnings and they can produce recordings of those warnings and the Russian crew['s acknowledgement ... NOT.

And of course they were strictly following NATO's rules of engagement ... NOT

Does anyone have info about what missile the F16 likely used and what countermeasures may have been available to the Su-24 crew?

Countermeasures for Russian aircraft could be installing ECM pods on wingtips.

Russians work mainly with KRET electronic offensive and defensive devices.

http://kret.com/en/news/4015/

Edited November 28, 2015 by Thorgal

[h90]

If it was engaged by Turkish F16s then the accepted international procedure is to initially give a radio warning and if that is not heeded then you fly alongside the offending aircraft and visually make communication with the pilot and by accepted hand gestures tell him to scram. Your wingman is defending your back. Was this done? As reported one of the offending Russian jets left when the initial warnings were given. This is all very strange as a wingman never leaves his leader and vice versa. The whole story reeks of something very strange. The small part of Turkish territory that the Russians entered, if they did enter, would take seconds to cross, hardly reason for shooting one of their jets down especially in the fact that the russians are also attacking many ISIS targets. I suspect that maybe an error was initially made by the Russians entering a small part of Turkish airspace but as it only took seconds to cross decided to keep going, but a bigger error was made by someone in Turkey giving orders to shoot them down and now are trying to cover it up.

Russia bombed some Turkish sponsored moderate Islamists and just before they torched oil trucks that take oil from ISIS to the son of Turkish PM

[IMA_FARANG]

Putin is an old KGB bully from the Soviet days.

He deliberately staged the shoot down of a Russian aircraft in order to justify the movement of a new modern Anti-aircraft system into Syria.

Supposedly to ""protect" Syria

And al lit he gambled was one old model aircraft and two pilots.

Putin would gladly sacrifice a pilot or two to help his Syrian "friends"....anyhow he expects to be repaid for that later on.

Putin expects his Syrian "friends" to Bend Over later him when he asks for it.

He will get all he wants from Syria then.

Putin is the type of Russian Mafia thug we have seen many times before.

Only a fool would trust him.

[TheCruncher]

Putin is an old KGB bully from the Soviet days.

He deliberately staged the shoot down of a Russian aircraft in order to justify the movement of a new modern Anti-aircraft system into Syria.

Supposedly to ""protect" Syria

And al lit he gambled was one old model aircraft and two pilots.

Putin would gladly sacrifice a pilot or two to help his Syrian "friends"....anyhow he expects to be repaid for that later on.

Putin expects his Syrian "friends" to Bend Over later him when he asks for it.

He will get all he wants from Syria then.

Putin is the type of Russian Mafia thug we have seen many times before.

Only a fool would trust him.

[craigt3365]

Of course the Turks can produce information regarding the radio frequency and language that was used for the warnings and they can produce recordings of those warnings and the Russian crew['s acknowledgement ... NOT.

And of course they were strictly following NATO's rules of engagement ... NOT

Does anyone have info about what missile the F16 likely used and what countermeasures may have been available to the Su-24 crew?

The US government has verified the Russian plane was verbally warned. And also verified it was hit while in Syrian airspace.

Turkey doesn't have to follow NATO's rules of engagement. Syria shot down one of their planes and since then, Syria has very specific and strict rules of engagement. Cross the border and you'll be shot down. Russia knew this and was warned many times about the airspace violations they've been making. The Russian response about the previous violation? It was a mistake. LOL

But I'm sure the Turks were able to distinguish if it was a Russian or Syrian plane that was crossing the border.

When i notice at the incredible short timespan of 17 seconds that the plane was above Turkeys territory, I can get rid of the feeling that they were waiting for the plane, probably on the advice of an ally. And we all know who that would be. NOT?

Russia is not coordinating their flight plans with the coalition in operation in Syria. I just read a report about a Russian fighter that had to visually ID a US plane as it could not via radar. So perhaps, the true identity was not knows. Russian or Syrian jet. They are both flying about the same hardware, right?

[craigt3365]

No axe to grind. Just different strategies. Putin want's Assad to stay (guarantees their military base can stay, along with weapon sales). US wants Assad gone (as is the desire of many Syrian citizens and a lot of the rest of the world).

[TheCruncher]

No axe to grind. Just different strategies. Putin want's Assad to stay (guarantees their military base can stay, along with weapon sales). US wants Assad gone (as is the desire of many Syrian citizens and a lot of the rest of the world).

Let me correct that for you.

US wants Assad gone (as is the desire of many Syrian citizens and a lot of the rest of the world) as they want to put their own man in place as they did in so many other countries in the region.

You remember they removed Saddam because so many Iraqi citizen desired, and what happened?

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed. Please use the correct name of nations.