Thai wife has to register falang husband's whereabouts?

Maestro · December 1, 2015

Removed a spam post.

LivinLOS · December 1, 2015

Anecdotally Chiang Mai is attempting to fine the wives of husbands, for the failure of the landlord to report.

If your not living in a house owned by the wife, I am confused as to how they can interpret it as being her job (aside from the obvious money grab).

My house, I rent, in my name, nothing to do with the wife.. If the landlord doesnt fulfill his obligation, thats not her responsibility.

LivinLOS · December 1, 2015

As this ended up a TL:DR I would say for anyone on extensions and 90 day reports, especially relevant for chiang mai.. Go now, lie and say you have been elsewhere in the country, that you just came back to chiang mai last night, and demand a TM28 be done.. If they demand your landlord, tell them nicely his compliance is none of your business, you cant force a Thai to do what you want.

============
OK so I strongly suspect this is going to be one of those 'no right answer' type situations as it was abundantly clear most frontline immigration staff didnt know either the rules or exactly how to apply the rules in interpretation.. So all I can do is list my experience and how I skirted being fined, point out the huge glaring holes in the system, and add to the general fund of experiences.

I heard before the weekend, from a guy who went to do his 90 day report, and got fined 2000 for not having reported his address, even tho its the same address as his extension was done from !! In fact, the fine was levied against his wife. Yet they were in a rented house. My assumption is perhaps the contract was in the wifes name making her responsible. I didnt discuss it in detail and to be frank it sounded like he just grumpily paid and didnt ask too much either.

I then see a notice yesterday stating that fines would be levied and as I have a 90 day due on the 3rd.. Thought I would go hear it from the horses mouth direct. All of the following is from Chiang Mai airport office. Also of note is my personal situation where I just moved house, so have a fresh lease dated Nov 1 which helped me cover.

Of course responses are only as I remember and paraphrased

========================

First into the main office.. The 'student helpers' offer assistance but are clueless of a TM28 or TM30.. They call to the row behind of actual immigration staff / ladies.. They too had no idea what either form was, or what it was for or who it was for.. I explained people were beng fined and I was there to make sure I was in compliance.. One kept repeating 'samsip baad' and I politely corrected to 'yiisip baad' and she kept repeating it as TM38... After a few minutes of them all coming to the general idea that no one had a clue they said to go to building 3 out behind.

Here I lucked out, I came in while they were in laughter and jokes, there was some fun and games while one passed the buck to another more english speaker, who I managed to get a laugh from, and with the right balance of subservient head bobbing and getting some more laughter about being guessed as being on retirement when I am still closer to a decade from it, everyone was in a good mood. It shouldnt come down to needing to grovel or catch them in a happy moment to not get fined but thats how it is.

The officer I discussed this with was clued up, knew the rule, and almost ready to jump on covering the reasons why fines could be placed.. but as the conversation went on, it was clear they havent thought this through well.

When I said there was a 'new rule' she instantly jumped on the fact this wasnt new at all.. Pulling out a new printed pamphlet in english one side and Thai the other.. On the Thai side it said the law was from the immigration act 2552 so I carefully backtracked and said OK so its new enforcement of a 6 year old law.. She then looked confused at the paper work and said no this law much older than that.. ohh they have printed it wrong.. So they are informing people of the 1979 law, saying its a 2009 law.. At which point she conceded it is new enforcement. I guess the paper was printed just to 'prove' the 'old' law and give an easier route to fines.

I then (you will see why later) diverted from my personal issue to when you need to report.. She said within 24h.. I asked every time ?? No we dont intend to be strict.. OK but I have been in hua hin for 2 weeks (lie) so is 2 weeks ok ?? No it isnt.. 2 weeks is too long.. So what amount of time is OK, if I go to pai for 2 nights do I need to go to immigration in mae hong song.. This level of detail they clearly dont know.. She said "oh we dont intend to be too strong" but I then thanked her, said its lovely they dont intend to be strong, but as I do things 100% legal, what is the law.. Much vagueness, squirming, and avoiding the huge elephant in the room which is you cant be expected to report every 24h hotel night away, despite the law saying that and the system they have made. Anyway this was useful for me..

I explained I was there to do my legal reporting.. That I was such a good boy and always did the letter of the law.. She said I had to go get my landlord and bring him.. I said that was impossible, he was busy, and I wasnt responsible for him, and I couldnt make him do anything.. And I was there to do MY reporting.

She explained I couldnt do my reporting until he had done it also, otherwise 'it wouldnt link up' on the computer.. I inferred from this and other statements she made that this will make online 90 day reports 'not work' too.

Again she said how lenient she would be with me, and if I could bring my landlord in the next few days, it would all be ok.. I explained I had to do a 90 day report in the next couple of days, and I wasnt going to pay a fine at 90 day report time, for not reporting, when here I was to do so.. I repeated that I didnt control my landlord, the last time I spoke he was in pattaya, also explained my old landlord lived in switzerland, and pointed out that I am not responsible for the actions of my Thai landlords. I was there to do MY reporting, they want to chase my landlord, invent a system for that, but I cant control him, hes a judge, I have only ever met him twice, hes busy mon to fri, and its not my business.. I was there for my legal reporting (and its clear heres where the holes in the system come up). She still friendly pointed out judge or not, he must follow the law and if he didnt come, he would be chased and pay double fine, I just stonewalled saying thats great, but his reporting is not something I can control. I would not be getting my landlord to come, I had my 90 day report to make, and I needed to register my TM28 so I didnt get fined.. His TM 30 is his problem.

By now she was a bit more stressed at that, kept repeating that doing a TM28 without the TM30 it 'wont link together' in the system.. But now she finally starts to look at my lease and other docs. My lease is dated Nov 1 and she started to try to use that as cause for me having to pay the fine.. The whole '24 hours to do it' from before came back.. I explained I actually have 2 rental houses, I rented this one and needed a month to move and have them make a kitchen (half truth) and only started to use it yesterday (lie).. I then threw in the mix what I said before that I have been in hua hin for the last 2 weeks (lie) and she had just told me, if I had been away 2 weeks the clock restarted. So I have just returned from my friends house in hua hin and here I was to report. So shes giving me the look that says "I know your lying, but I am conditioned to not question a lie that cant be shown to be false"..

You can see the holes in this whole system already..

She takes my lease to the big boss over one side, who seems decently smiley from before still, and he nods and agrees and she comes back and ever so graciously like I should be so thankful they are bending the rules, says I will be permitted to do my compulsory reporting (aint that nice of them) but kept repeating that 'it wont link'.. She also said other visa classes like ED visas wouldnt process the 90 day extensions if 'they didnt link' and I think heres where i thought the 90 day online reporting may not work too..

She then comes with TM28 and a TM30.. Again pushing for me to bring my landlord back there.. I said hes too busy, I dont know him etc etc.. She said OK but what about an agent ?? Did I use an Agent ?? Or how about his wife.. I explained this was a business deal, I dont know the guy, I dont know if he has a wife, we are not friends or social, I rent a house, I pay him by bank.. You could see that Thai thinking that if you rent a house, you have a relationship with the landlord.. She then said it could be any body, doesnt matter, she joked even his gik, can you get his gik to come ? playing around.. So I countered with, well if its anybody, can I do his TM30 for him.. That got an odd look of puzzlement, back to the big boss.. And no.. I cant do it for the landlord, but anybody else can do it for the landlord (well thought through huh ??) so the TM30 according to that office, can be done by 'anyone else' except the farang who gets fined 2000 baht if he tries to do his 90 day report with it not done ?!?!

So end result, they issued me a TM28 stamped.. But kept telling me it 'wouldnt work' and 'would not link' until the other party does theirs.. Well as I dont give a hoot about anything other than not being fined, it sure seems to have 'worked' enough for me.. Clearly she felt I could have been fined if I didnt have a fresh lease to play off, and to have used the lie of being in hua hin for 2 weeks and just having returned. The tone was friendly but very much I should be grateful for them 'letting me off' not having my landlord do something ?!?!

Whats totally backwards is they want to link the TM28 and TM30, they were highly resistant to allowing me the privilege of doing a TM28, but the system says you have to do this after 24 hours ?? So what every homestay, every hotel, every visit to a mate or family legally requires a TM 28.. But theres no way as a farang I can force each of those home dwelling or hotel owners to accompany me to immigration to do the TM30. Its just a nuts system that wont hang together in that implementation.

Other points.. She said this had nothing to do with collecting income taxes on rental income.. They had no interest in that at all.. The Army had told immigration, they had to invent a system to have tight(er) control on where farangs stay at all time. The odd thing is, this is only being applied through the process of 90 day reporting or extensions so its only going to work on a fraction of farangs (bad system to start with) and they are apparently using the pressure of fining farangs, to push their accommodation providers into compliance (hardly fair). The whole time she was still friendly, not scowling and grumpy like some, but the very fact you need a friendly officer to avoid being fined for something someone else has to do, seems very backward and unenforceable.

==================

Ohh should add.. Once I had my TM28 I then tried to do my 90 day report at the airport office.. The officer was (at 11:45) reading his paper and told me to come back after 1 but I had stuff to be doing locally an was grateful not to go to promenada so that wasnt a problem, I returned well after then maybe 2:30 and he sure was looking out for the TM28 despite the officers processing extensions not knowing, he VERY much did.. Again, without it I feel I would definitely have been fined. He was also no genius, took a full few minutes to explain the old 90 day paper which expired in August, was not 'over' as he kept bluntly repeating while jabbing his finger at it.. It was old and I had been out of the country when it expired.. He really couldnt grasp that simple thing for ages.. 'Over.. OVER'.. jab jab..

I also so wanted to sneak a photo, because behind the counter was 7 ladies in pink shirts.. Chief lady in black middle back, and 2 or 3 helpers.. and not one of them were servicing customers.. 3 groups of 2 were having a natter, one was playing with her phone, the chubby khatoey one had her hands behind her head looking at the ceiling.. Honestly not a single one was actively working or processing either paperwork or people.. And the roomful of people were just sitting there waiting for the privilege of being seen.

So I now have a passport with a stapled in arrival card.. Stapled in TM28.. Stapled in 90 day report.. Welcome to the digital age !!

LivinLOS · December 1, 2015

I dont think they are bothering to print up new leaflets if they dont intend on using them to justify fines on 'old' laws..

WinnieTheKhwai · December 2, 2015

Adding this info here too: I just did a TM28 today, at Chiang Mai Promenada office. Very quick, no charge, no hassle.

They do have a TM30 report on file for me (done on-line the day before so I know it was in place when I went in for the TM28).

I'd be interested to learn from others who went in for a TM28 without a TM30 on file and/or doing a TM30 (by his wife, etc.) at the same time.

(It seems unlike that I'd ever get in trouble for not having a TM28, especially when the TM30 has also been done by my wife/landlord/condominium office, but it's another opportunity to go to the immigration office, and we can never have too many of those can we! Loving it. )

Edited December 2, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

Maestro · December 2, 2015

...

They do have a TM30 report on file for me (done on-line the day before so I know it was in place when I went in for the TM28).

...

TM.30 one online by whom?

Maestro · December 2, 2015

...

My house, I rent, in my name, nothing to do with the wife.. If the landlord doesnt fulfill his obligation, thats not her responsibility.

Unless the "landlord" is the housemaster of the residence where you live it is not his legal obligation to file the TM.30 form, although some immigration offices apparently accept it from him if he chooses to file it. From the definitions in Section 4 of the English translation of the Immigration Act and from Section 38:

Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of

owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

...

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager

where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the

competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or

hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office

located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

...

In light of the definition in Section 4, it is reasonable to interpret Section 38 to mean that

if the owner of the residence is the house-master, then the owner must file the report; otherwise
if the possessor is the house-master, then the the possessor (eg the tenant) must file the report

In the words of the definition in Section 4, you are the house-master, ie the chief possessor in your capacity of tenant. Therefore, in the eyes of the law it is your obligation to submit the TM.30 and the immigration office cannot be faulted if it fines you for the failure to do so.

How a judge sees it remains to be seen if and when such cases goes to court and the outcome probably will depend on how well he lawyer handling the case understands the immigration act and presents the case.

Tywais · December 2, 2015

...

They do have a TM30 report on file for me (done on-line the day before so I know it was in place when I went in for the TM28).

...

TM.30 one online by whom?

If I recall correctly from the CM forum, his wife has rental properties and immigration supplied her with a PIN to submit TM30s on-line.

LivinLOS · December 2, 2015

...

They do have a TM30 report on file for me (done on-line the day before so I know it was in place when I went in for the TM28).

...

TM.30 one online by whom?

If I recall correctly from the CM forum, his wife has rental properties and immigration supplied her with a PIN to submit TM30s on-line.

Yes I didnt want to answer for WTK but thats what hes said..

They have other properties which they do TM30s for people.. I know not if residential or guesthouse type.

LivinLOS · December 2, 2015

...

My house, I rent, in my name, nothing to do with the wife.. If the landlord doesnt fulfill his obligation, thats not her responsibility.

Unless the "landlord" is the housemaster of the residence where you live it is not his legal obligation to file the TM.30 form, although some immigration offices apparently accept it from him if he chooses to file it. From the definitions in Section 4 of the English translation of the Immigration Act and from Section 38:

Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of

owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

...

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager

where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the

competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or

hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office

located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

...

In light of the definition in Section 4, it is reasonable to interpret Section 38 to mean that

if the owner of the residence is the house-master, then the owner must file the report; otherwise

if the possessor is the house-master, then the the possessor (eg the tenant) must file the report

In the words of the definition in Section 4, you are the house-master, ie the chief possessor in your capacity of tenant. Therefore, in the eyes of the law it is your obligation to submit the TM.30 and the immigration office cannot be faulted if it fines you for the failure to do so.

How a judge sees it remains to be seen if and when such cases goes to court and the outcome probably will depend on how well he lawyer handling the case understands the immigration act and presents the case.

Well the captain I spoke to was adamant I (the named tenant on the rental contract) could not do this.. The owner or an agent or a nominee or even 'his gik' as she joked could... But I could not.. She would not allow me to take the forms, have him sign them and then me return them either..

She seemed (was fairly firm tho I didnt press it) to demand someone, the house master or his representative, visited in person. Not just papers shuffled back and forth, but to 'bring someone' who represented the house there. I tried to point out the madness is suggesting a judge, who is often working in Bangkok or Pattaya for periods of time (which is the fact of my landlord) has to present himself within 24 hours of every bike trip, beach holiday, bangkok hop, or other time I stay outside of the province.. Something that happens every other week and sometimes multiple times a week.. That he should need to do this each time is madness.. And totally unworkable.

Her counter is.. Well if hes a judge he will know the law, and know that no one is exempt from the law.. We have been told to do this by the army and this is whats needed.

WinnieTheKhwai · December 3, 2015

...

They do have a TM30 report on file for me (done on-line the day before so I know it was in place when I went in for the TM28).

...

TM.30 one online by whom?

If I recall correctly from the CM forum, his wife has rental properties and immigration supplied her with a PIN to submit TM30s on-line.

Yes I didnt want to answer for WTK but thats what hes said..

They have other properties which they do TM30s for people.. I know not if residential or guesthouse type.

Residential in the sense that it's not a hotel or guesthouse. The login is based on the location, not the person. So if the same person is the owner/mast4er of multiple properties then there is a login for each of them.

Anyway I expect most of this to fall by the wayside, with the only likely change is that hotels/guesthouses/holiday rental locations will be checked on more to follow the rules, and then for foreigners renting somewhere, a TM30 be filled in once for a particular rental location, possibly only for foreigners who don't have their location on file through other procedures such as a work permit or condo ownership. (My expectation/guess only).

TM30 is actually somewhat useful to have on file for authorities, also in cases where there is an incident such as a person going missing, being involved in a crime, etc. If the hospitality industry fastidiously logs this information then that's really helpful to trace someone's movements. It makes a lot more sense than TM28 anyway, which relies on the person him/herself going to report and requires a lot more time and resources: too much time to expect from every tourist, and also too much effort on the part of immigration. Compared to TM30 which takes very little effort for a hotel to do once a day online, and no effort from Immigration other than administering the site.

Edited December 3, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

beerzy · December 4, 2015

My understanding is that it's been required by any hotel, apartment or other rental option to report monthly on any foreign residents for the past 10-15 years.

This is not true. The notification, with the form TM.30, is made only once, within 24 hours of the arrival of the foreigner, regardless of the length of stay.

Are you sure on this as I leave thailand every 3 months and I thought the home owner needs to complete a new form-please advise?

beerzy · December 4, 2015

My understanding is that it's been required by any hotel, apartment or other rental option to report monthly on any foreign residents for the past 10-15 years.

This is not true. The notification, with the form TM.30, is made only once, within 24 hours of the arrival of the foreigner, regardless of the length of stay.

When did it start being required of a wife to report her husband? It may have been on the books, and we all know about hotels notifying immigration, but since when did a wife have to report her husband? I've lived with my wife for 25 years, and been to immigration with her plenty of times, but never any mention of this.

From my certain knowledge TM 30 forms have been required since Feb of this year.

Thai wives are not required to "report" their husbands but owners or possessors of property are expected to report a foreigner taking up residence.

Not quite correct. as the property is owned by the wife and she is the owner of the property. If you are an "alien then she needs to report that you are living there. this regulation been tightened since the bombing.

LivinLOS · December 4, 2015

Chiang Mai immigration told me very clearly that a new one must be submitted every time I return from any visit of 24h away..

A totally ridiculous and unworkable system if it ever became fact.

This weekend I may be going to pai.. So a submission TM28 in pai ?? at the weekend when its closed ?? Then a TM28 and summon my landlord for another TM30 on Monday back to chiang mai ?? Then next week down to Thai family.. Where I must do TM28 and the Thai family must do TM30.. Then bangkok 2 nights, I do more TM28s.. Then back to Chiang Mai and again with TM28s and my landlord needing to do another TM30.. Honestly its that stupid.. Yet thats the 'rules' as she explained them but even she said 'we dont intend to be strict on enforcement' but then couldnt say how strict.. one day ok ?? 2 days ok ?? 7 days ok ?? well.. er.. umm..

Clearly that requirement is bananas.. But without any question that was her understanding of what the requirements were supposed to be. Part of me wants to go back and see if she will let me record a set of questions as its so out there its almost unbelievable to me. I would like to have it on record but whats the bets she wont allow any firm statement of the rule.

Of course that begs the idea that... Is this a payback / snub from immigration to the Junta ?? Its no secret that the Bangkok bombers used bribing immigration on entry and exit and there was some very public back and forth from the junta to head of immigration and public accusations of corruption etc.. Could this be immigrations 'thai way' of sticking it back ?? Like a 'you want rules.. ok heres the silly rules' ??

Edited December 4, 2015 by LivinLOS

ubonjoe · December 4, 2015

How would immigration know that you left your home for more than 24 hours? Even if you checked into a hotel they would not know about it unless they searched the database for the reports done online.

LivinLOS · December 4, 2015

How would immigration know that you left your home for more than 24 hours? Even if you checked into a hotel they would know about it unless they searched the database for the the reports done online.

Look I agree its madness and unenforceable..

But she said each TM28 and TM30 has to 'link' in the computer.. and if they dont link people wont be able to renew 90 day Eds, do online 90 days, stuff like that..

In fact if they have a TM30 from a hotel, its clear they need another TM30 when you go home.. Each one needing a report..

Again, its mad, and unworkable.. But this is the result of half an hour talking to her in her perfect english.. No vague language.

Maestro · December 4, 2015

...

This weekend I may be going to pai.. So a submission TM28 in pai ?? at the weekend when its closed ?? Then a TM28 and summon my landlord for another TM30 on Monday back to chiang mai ??

...

If you start doing the TM.30 in your own name as the possessor of the residence in your capacity as tenant you won't have to bother your landlord in future.

LivinLOS · December 5, 2015

...

This weekend I may be going to pai.. So a submission TM28 in pai ?? at the weekend when its closed ?? Then a TM28 and summon my landlord for another TM30 on Monday back to chiang mai ??

...

If you start doing the TM.30 in your own name as the possessor of the residence in your capacity as tenant you won't have to bother your landlord in future.

As per

She then comes with TM28 and a TM30.. Again pushing for me to bring my landlord back there.. I said hes too busy, I dont know him etc etc.. She said OK but what about an agent ?? Did I use an Agent ?? Or how about his wife.. I explained this was a business deal, I dont know the guy, I dont know if he has a wife, we are not friends or social, I rent a house, I pay him by bank.. You could see that Thai thinking that if you rent a house, you have a relationship with the landlord.. She then said it could be any body, doesnt matter, she joked even his gik, can you get his gik to come ? playing around.. So I countered with, well if its anybody, can I do his TM30 for him.. That got an odd look of puzzlement, back to the big boss.. And no.. I cant do it for the landlord, but anybody else can do it for the landlord (well thought through huh ??) so the TM30 according to that office, can be done by 'anyone else' except the farang who gets fined 2000 baht if he tries to do his 90 day report with it not done ?!?!

I tried.. This was denied.. I cannot do both my TM28 myself and the TM30 as possessor of the house via a rental contract.

Another report today of someone paying 3200 baht fine for failure to submit TM30 in Chiang Mai.

Maestro · December 5, 2015

...

Another report today of someone paying 3200 baht fine for failure to submit TM30 in Chiang Mai.

Do I understand correctly that the Chiang Mai immigration office fined a tenant because he, the tenant, had not submited the TM.30?

LivinLOS · December 5, 2015

...

Another report today of someone paying 3200 baht fine for failure to submit TM30 in Chiang Mai.

Do I understand correctly that the Chiang Mai immigration office fined a tenant because he, the tenant, had not submited the TM.30?

In that case today the poster said they fined his landlord 3200..

However last week a guy was fined 2000b as a rental tenant. I am guessing they fined his wife as the possessor, but we both know who paid it. I dont think he had a clear idea of why he was fined or which TM28/TM30 was demanded, he just paid more money !!

Fact is they seem very gung ho about handing out fines, have printed new leaflets in Thai and english and seem to be implementing this in a very half assed way.

slerickson · December 5, 2015

This is all confusing to me. I live with girl friend for the past 7 months, does she need to do a tm30?

expatbrit · December 5, 2015

This is all confusing to me. I live with girl friend for the past 7 months, does she need to do a tm30?

Yes

If she owns or rents the property.

Edited December 5, 2015 by expatbrit

ubonjoe · December 6, 2015

...

Another report today of someone paying 3200 baht fine for failure to submit TM30 in Chiang Mai.

Do I understand correctly that the Chiang Mai immigration office fined a tenant because he, the tenant, had not submited the TM.30?

In that case today the poster said they fined his landlord 3200..

However last week a guy was fined 2000b as a rental tenant. I am guessing they fined his wife as the possessor, but we both know who paid it. I dont think he had a clear idea of why he was fined or which TM28/TM30 was demanded, he just paid more money !!

Fact is they seem very gung ho about handing out fines, have printed new leaflets in Thai and english and seem to be implementing this in a very half assed way.

Unless the landlord is renting out the property as a business the max fine is 2000 baht.

"Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht."

LivinLOS · December 6, 2015

^^ tell it to immigration !!

According to the poster.. It would seem to be because the landlord had not done a TM30 'for a very long time' !!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/875172-tm28tm30-avoiding-fines-if-on-extensions/?p=10154363

Thought I would share my experience today at the Airport Immigration location.

We have been living in the same house for 3 years. I read about this topic and felt we needed to do the right thing (go submit the TM28 and TM30) as our visas are up for renewal.

Our landlord has never heard of any of this. We sat in the office, explained our story, and they fined our landlord 3,200 Baht, "because we have lived here so long"

The officer told us they are being very strict now to make landlords afraid of disobeying the law.

Every officer seems to have a different understanding of the law or its implementation.. And yet multi 1000b fines are being handed out based on this vagueness. No one will give a clear concise answer on when additional reports need to be redone the captain I spoke to said vaguely ' few days' that one night away was 'ok' but 1 - 2 weeks.. Ohh no thats too long..

Lastly, its my impression.. They are using the TM28 side of the reporting, to 'push' the farang to make his landlord come in.. Fine the farang once, he will then do the legwork to make the landlord comply. I am flat out stubbornly refusing any part in that game. They want my landlord, you go after my landlord.. Whats his phone number ?? Dont have one.. Your move.. If they wish to design a system, they must design its compliance side not by random fining of me. I have done my TM28 (despite much resistance) and will do one each time I return from a trip abroad.

Liquorice · December 6, 2015

Chiang Mai immigration told me very clearly that a new one must be submitted every time I return from any visit of 24h away..

A totally ridiculous and unworkable system if it ever became fact.

This weekend I may be going to pai.. So a submission TM28 in pai ?? at the weekend when its closed ?? Then a TM28 and summon my landlord for another TM30 on Monday back to chiang mai ?? Then next week down to Thai family.. Where I must do TM28 and the Thai family must do TM30.. Then bangkok 2 nights, I do more TM28s.. Then back to Chiang Mai and again with TM28s and my landlord needing to do another TM30.. Honestly its that stupid.. Yet thats the 'rules' as she explained them but even she said 'we dont intend to be strict on enforcement' but then couldnt say how strict.. one day ok ?? 2 days ok ?? 7 days ok ?? well.. er.. umm..

Clearly that requirement is bananas.. But without any question that was her understanding of what the requirements were supposed to be. Part of me wants to go back and see if she will let me record a set of questions as its so out there its almost unbelievable to me. I would like to have it on record but whats the bets she wont allow any firm statement of the rule.

Of course that begs the idea that... Is this a payback / snub from immigration to the Junta ?? Its no secret that the Bangkok bombers used bribing immigration on entry and exit and there was some very public back and forth from the junta to head of immigration and public accusations of corruption etc.. Could this be immigrations 'thai way' of sticking it back ?? Like a 'you want rules.. ok heres the silly rules' ??

There are two separate issues here.

Report by the alien of his address. (Section 37)

Report by the house master of an alien residing at an address. (Section 38)

An alien first reports his address on a TM6 when he enters the Country. That address will determine which Immigration office he may need to report at.

Only if the alien changes to a new permanent address should he need to complete a TM28 (change of address) to inform his existing or new Immigration office of his whereabouts so he can continue to do extensions, 90 day reports at the office responsible for that catchment area.

If you temporarily stay at a different location to your registered permanent address, the requirement is to report your presence to the local Police station in the Province where you temporarily stay (not Immigration).

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

That's the general rule, but the differences are defined in the next two sections.

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area with the former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival.

That's the procedure for a permanent change in residency. In this situation a TM30 should be completed but only needs to be submitted to Immigration at the end of your current 90 day stay. (Section 5 confirms that)

5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in writing , concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office.

4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival.

This is the requirement to temporarily stay in another Province.

There is clear distinction between change of residency (section 3) and temporary stay (section 4) in my opinion.

There is no requirement to report a change in address to Immigration (TM28) until your current 90 day permission expires (section 5)

Section 38. Report by the house master of an alien taking residence, is a different thing altogether.

The House master of any house, dwelling place, or hotel should report (TM30) an alien taking up residence to the local Immigration office within 24 hours of the time of arrival, or to the local Police station if there is no Immigration office in that Province.

So a TM30 should be completed by the House master every time an alien takes up a place of residency (temporarily or permanent) for more than 24 hours, but a TM28 by the alien only needs submitting when he changes and takes up a new permanent address.

Liquorice · December 6, 2015

In reality if I were staying at a friends for a few days, would I expect my House master to report my stay on a TM30, and would I report my presence to a local Police station.............No! Immigration wouldn't know about it unless something happened and they are looking for me.

I'd take my chances.

If I were staying in a hotel for a few days, then I would report my temporary presence to the local Police because I know the hotel will be filling a TM30.

When I return to the UK for a visit next year, I will stay overnight in a hotel before my early morning flight.

I won't report my presence because my stay will be less than 24 hours.

The hotel however should report my presence.

On my return I will complete a new TM6 which will detail the same address that is already registered with Immigration, so no need to do anything more.

The House master though will have to file a new TM30 notifying my taking up residence their again, to set the record straight, because my last known presence reported by a House master was at a different location (hotel) I stayed at for one night.

LivinLOS · December 6, 2015

If they think house masters have the time to constantly report my comings and goings.. They are dreaming.. My last landlord lived in Switzerland.. My current landlord is a busy judge who is constantly doing trials all over the country and I cant even get him to turn up at a weekend for some discussion, been trying for a month solid now. If he cant manage to be here at a weekend for a period of a month, you think hes got time to be traipsing to immigration every time I come or go ?? Or even to do it online..

Just silly. Unworkable, unenforceable, impractical and cant happen.. No amount of paranoid wanting to know every non thais movements changes that basic fact. They can do what they want, I wont be complying any more than I have done. If they really start to push this I will drop from extension to multiple entry visas and just drop off the radar. Its too silly to really bother complying with.

Liquorice · December 6, 2015

If they think house masters have the time to constantly report my comings and goings.. They are dreaming.. My last landlord lived in Switzerland.. My current landlord is a busy judge who is constantly doing trials all over the country and I cant even get him to turn up at a weekend for some discussion, been trying for a month solid now. If he cant manage to be here at a weekend for a period of a month, you think hes got time to be traipsing to immigration every time I come or go ?? Or even to do it online..

Just silly. Unworkable, unenforceable, impractical and cant happen.. No amount of paranoid wanting to know every non thais movements changes that basic fact. They can do what they want, I wont be complying any more than I have done. If they really start to push this I will drop from extension to multiple entry visas and just drop off the radar. Its too silly to really bother complying with.

TM30 reporting can be made in person or by mail.

If Chiang Mai won't accept mail, you can do it in person.

I'm sure you could complete the TM30 and mail it to you landlord for his signature and return.

The Immigration Act defines the House Master as the owner, occupier or Tenant. (Section 4)

If Chiang Mai will not let you sign the form as the 'tenant' in the absence of your landlord, then perhaps you should bring the law to their attention.

I was in a similar predicament, but my Immigration office had no objection to me completing a signing the TM30 as long as I supplied copies of the landlords ID card and Tabian Baan, signed with contact number.

They merely phoned my landlord in my presence to confirm the details of the TM30.

It is not silly, unworkable, unenforceable or impractical, it's the law, whether enforced or not.

A multi entry Visa won't drop you off the radar either. Your exit and re-entry will be reported on a new TM6 every time.

If your Immigration office want a new TM30 from the House master every time you leave the Country and re-enter, he's soon going to get pissed with having you as a tenant.

I think your creating your own problems. With a simple observance and some common sense it's not difficult to follow the rules and avoid fines or warnings.

If your lifestyle dictates that you travel frequently around the Country visiting friends and family, then that's not the fault of the law, but your chosen lifestyle.

Living in Thailand dictates that you report your address(s) unfortunately.

It's a case of put up, or shut up.

I'd rather follow the paper trail here, than go through trying to get a Thai permission to live in the UK.

Autonuaq · December 6, 2015

{snipped earlier posts}

Hi Ubon Joe,

I see at the top of TM28, the heading is: “Form for aliens to notify their change of address or their stay in the province for over 24 hours”

I notice you said the only time TM28 is used is for a change of address. I note you said Immigration doesn't enforce the staying of more than 24 hours in another province. Is that because they assume the housemaster should be doing that with a TM30?

Couldn't TM28 be regarded as also just to notify someone has moved into an address though? Effectively the ferang reporting he's staying somewhere, instead of the housemaster using TM30 to do the same job?

I'm querying that, as when we went away from home for a couple of days, we stayed at a small hotel which didn't bother to check passport details for any registering.

In the past I didn't bother about registering when I moved into the house (apart from 90 day registration of course).

However, when we came back, I thought that as there's now so much Immigration interest in TM28/30, I registered myself using TM28.

The IO looked a little surprised that anyone would be volunteering any info (Udon Immigration), but accepted the TM28. She stapled the TM28 receipt into my passport, and also updated my 90 day registration to start again from that date.

There have been no reports of immigration wanting a TM28 other than for a change of address and immigration would not expect that unless you are staying here long term and doing 90 day reports. Some offices don't even request it or want it for doing a change of address.

The immigration act the way it is written creates a bit of duplicity between the the reporting requirements for sections 37 and 38. That is why immigration is only enforcing the TM30 reporting and some offices have gone overboard in their requirements by misinterpreting it.

I think it would be best if people would refer to the 90 day reporting as to what it is truly meant to be for which is for staying longer than 90 days in the country not a address report.

UJ, do you have a link to section 37 and 38 you referred to above?

I looked on the Immig website, but in the 'Acts' area it says that section is not available now. Do you have another link, or perhaps post the text maybe?

Thanks,

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf

Please be aware that The Thai version of all document in this country is the only valid document and prevailed above the English version.

The translation into English do not provide any rights..

Beside that the Thai law is clear about when and what to do.

Workable for us or not it is the law and regulation one has to comply to in Thailand.

Till now I wonder if there is a representation on this forum that did address the issue to the immigration department and got a written statement for the immigration department that all can use as well can be referred to.

Think that is the only and best solution to find out how ans what. and have to things in right order about TM30, TM28, TM 47 and other things that this post has brought up.

How to do?

.

Autonuaq · December 6, 2015

{snipped earlier posts}

Hi Ubon Joe,

I see at the top of TM28, the heading is: “Form for aliens to notify their change of address or their stay in the province for over 24 hours”

I notice you said the only time TM28 is used is for a change of address. I note you said Immigration doesn't enforce the staying of more than 24 hours in another province. Is that because they assume the housemaster should be doing that with a TM30?

Couldn't TM28 be regarded as also just to notify someone has moved into an address though? Effectively the ferang reporting he's staying somewhere, instead of the housemaster using TM30 to do the same job?

I'm querying that, as when we went away from home for a couple of days, we stayed at a small hotel which didn't bother to check passport details for any registering.

In the past I didn't bother about registering when I moved into the house (apart from 90 day registration of course).

However, when we came back, I thought that as there's now so much Immigration interest in TM28/30, I registered myself using TM28.

The IO looked a little surprised that anyone would be volunteering any info (Udon Immigration), but accepted the TM28. She stapled the TM28 receipt into my passport, and also updated my 90 day registration to start again from that date.

There have been no reports of immigration wanting a TM28 other than for a change of address and immigration would not expect that unless you are staying here long term and doing 90 day reports. Some offices don't even request it or want it for doing a change of address.

The immigration act the way it is written creates a bit of duplicity between the the reporting requirements for sections 37 and 38. That is why immigration is only enforcing the TM30 reporting and some offices have gone overboard in their requirements by misinterpreting it.

I think it would be best if people would refer to the 90 day reporting as to what it is truly meant to be for which is for staying longer than 90 days in the country not a address report.

UJ, do you have a link to section 37 and 38 you referred to above?

I looked on the Immig website, but in the 'Acts' area it says that section is not available now. Do you have another link, or perhaps post the text maybe?

Thanks,

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf

copy form FAZ post which is the same answer as others tried to explain too in reference to this issue in this post.