Chip and PIN debit / ATM card

[recom273]

Using PIN to buy everything was common place in the UK 10 years ago, some banks were doing a thing where you waved your wallet over the reader.

To combat cloning, a garage cashier would take the card with two fingers and place it in the reader in full view.

I tried to purchase tickets at the cinema the other day and I needed a chip and PIN card. I notice BIg C have readers similar to the garages back home.

So I enquired to Kasikorn, when will you be issuing chip and PIN cards .. "Oh sorry sir we don't issue chip and PIN ATM cards" ( ATM being debit card )

Does anyone else have a chip and PIN ?

If I recall Be1st had them, but I was limited to withdrawing cash at BBK atm's only.

[stoneyboy]

My Bangkok bank card is old style magnetic strip as you say I don't think chip and pin is prominent here yet.

In relation to big c yes they now have chip and pin card readers and also contactless payment whereby you wave your card over the reader although this is capped to GBP £30 a day limit roughly 1500 baht give or take.

[Pib]

Every big Big C, Lotus, Foodland, Tops, HomePro, just any Thai store, etc., I use for pay for things at has the standard Point of Service (POS) machine that accepts chipped or magnetic strip cards....and I see both being used. In fact a few of my U.S. credit and debit cards are still magnetic strip only which I use in Thai POS machines and Thai ATMs. For the magnetic strip only cards they are swiped through the slot on the side of the POS machine. For ATMs the slot you stick you card in is a combo chip and magnetic strip reader. The great majority of Thai "credit" cards already have a chip, but not so for Thai debit cards.

Where you say cinema needed a Chip & PIN card, how do you know that? Is that based on "appearance" of the machine? If looking like an ATM, as mentioned Thai ATMs accepted chip or magnetic strip cards....and a POS machine as the magnetic strip swipe slot on its side.

Or maybe you are saying when inserting your card it was rejected due to some type of PIN Required error message?

[lopburi3]

There is a lot of issues for sales people now as Thailand is about to make the switch to chip (should be made this year if not delayed). Lotus delivery drivers have made the mistake of trying to read chip in my (BTS chip) Bangkok Bank mag strip card so many times that have given up and pay in cash now. Bangkok Bank does have a chip card but AFAIK is the only one so far.

[recom273]

Where you say cinema needed a Chip & PIN card, how do you know that? Is that based on "appearance" of the machine? If looking like an ATM, as mentioned Thai ATMs accepted chip or magnetic strip cards....and a POS machine as the magnetic strip swipe slot on its side.

Or maybe you are saying when inserting your card it was rejected due to some type of PIN Required error message?

Because when I went through the process of buying a ticket then when I went to insert my card .. I saw the flashing slot, labeled "chip & PIN" card.

The when I enquired at the counter, I was told by the girl it was chip & PIN only ..

I lost my card the following day, which is why I enquired when canceling my card.

Just seems strange that Credit cards have one procedure and debit cards another and wether it was just kasikorn that are way in the past.

The chip and PIN machines must be a sizable investment for someone, merchant services or the stores, but they aren't being used or even scheduled to be used.

[recom273]

There is a lot of issues for sales people now as Thailand is about to make the switch to chip (should be made this year if not delayed). Lotus delivery drivers have made the mistake of trying to read chip in my (BTS chip) Bangkok Bank mag strip card so many times that have given up and pay in cash now. Bangkok Bank does have a chip card but AFAIK is the only one so far.

OK .. Thanks for the info.

So there is a schedule and BBK are the only ones to adopt so far.

I remember it was about 5 years ago that I was first offered a chipped debit card by BBK, guess like most things in Thailand, life in the bus lane.

[BKKdreaming]

My 2 week old K bank debit card is the old style

[Pib]

The chip and PIN machines must be a sizable investment for someone, merchant services or the stores, but they aren't being used or even scheduled to be used.

Every merchant I use in Bangkok such as Lotus, Big C, HomePro, Foodland, fuel stations, just any merchant that accepts credit or debit cards have had Chip & PIN Point of Service (POS) machines at checkout for a long tie...at least the last 7 years since I've retired here...I use my chipped credit and debit cards almost daily. Most Thai "credit" cards have had chips for a while; but most Thai debit cards are still magnetic strip but that is slowly changing.

Now, although Thai merchants have POS machines which can process chipped or magnetic strip cards, if your card-issuing bank has set your card up for Chip & PIN mode only versus also allowing Chip & Signature mode then you may have a problem at many Thai merchant checkouts as they generally don't want to use Chip & PIN mode...they want to use Chip & Signature mode.

By Chip & PIN, I mean your PIN must be entered to complete the transaction. By Chip & Signature I mean your PIN is not required and you sign a receipt for signature instead. You've probably noticed the POS machine that clerks use are almost always located behind the checkout counter, very close to the cash register and usually can not be moved except for a few inches...can't be moved to where a customer could reach them to enter a PIN. Yes, some merchants like Lotus and Big C may also have some POS machines right where the customer stands or those type of POS machines you can just wave you card over, but I've never seen anyone use them yet. The check out clerk always uses the POS machine durn near chained to the cash register.

When a chipped card is inserted into a POS machines the POS machine and card first try to come to agreement on what transaction modes are acceptable to each....if the POS machine says Chip & Signature is only acceptable and that is one of the acceptable modes hard coded in the card by your card-issuing bank then the transaction continues on. But say the card-issuing bank as set the card up to only use Chip & PIN (i.e., always requires a PIN entry) then the POS machine is going to display to the clerk a message something along the lines of "PIN Required" and when they see that based on store policy they'll probably won't allow you to enter the PIN which might require you coming behind the counter or leaning way over the counter. Instead, they will just say the card is not working...then you think something has gone wrong with the card but it hasn't...it just the store's policy not to do Chip & PIN.

[recom273]

The chip and PIN machines must be a sizable investment for someone, merchant services or the stores, but they aren't being used or even scheduled to be used.

Every merchant I use in Bangkok such as Lotus, Big C, HomePro, Foodland, fuel stations, just any merchant that accepts credit or debit cards have had Chip & PIN Point of Service (POS) machines at checkout for a long tie...at least the last 7 years since I've retired here...I use my chipped credit and debit cards almost daily. Most Thai "credit" cards have had chips for a while; but most Thai debit cards are still magnetic strip but that is slowly changing.

Now, although Thai merchants have POS machines which can process chipped or magnetic strip cards, if your card-issuing bank has set your card up for Chip & PIN mode only versus also allowing Chip & Signature mode then you may have a problem at many Thai merchant checkouts as they generally don't want to use Chip & PIN mode...they want to use Chip & Signature mode.

By Chip & PIN, I mean your PIN must be entered to complete the transaction. By Chip & Signature I mean your PIN is not required and you sign a receipt for signature instead. You've probably noticed the POS machine that clerks use are almost always located behind the checkout counter, very close to the cash register and usually can not be moved except for a few inches...can't be moved to where a customer could reach them to enter a PIN. Yes, some merchants like Lotus and Big C may also have some POS machines right where the customer stands or those type of POS machines you can just wave you card over, but I've never seen anyone use them yet. The check out clerk always uses the POS machine durn near chained to the cash register.

When a chipped card is inserted into a POS machines the POS machine and card first try to come to agreement on what transaction modes are acceptable to each....if the POS machine says Chip & Signature is only acceptable and that is one of the acceptable modes hard coded in the card by your card-issuing bank then the transaction continues on. But say the card-issuing bank as set the card up to only use Chip & PIN (i.e., always requires a PIN entry) then the POS machine is going to display to the clerk a message something along the lines of "PIN Required" and when they see that based on store policy they'll probably won't allow you to enter the PIN which might require you coming behind the counter or leaning way over the counter. Instead, they will just say the card is not working...then you think something has gone wrong with the card but it hasn't...it just the store's policy not to do Chip & PIN.

I'm really puzzled by your replies .. Questioning my post every time.

When I say chip & PIN I mean chip & PIN which have emerged "outside Bangkok" in big c and home pro over the past 6 months to a year. Where the chipped card is inserted into the machine and a PIN put into the machine ..

I thought I made it clear that the topic was about debit cards ?? I'm pleased that you use your credit card tho'

The answer has been given that Kasikorn don't offer the service yet as far as anyone else knows only BBK cards have a chip and it seems that the schedule is for next year.

[Pib]

I'm just surprised you have run into any machines so far in Thailand that will "only" accept a Chip & PIN card...flat out don't want magnetic strip cards.

I use my debit and credit cards out in the provinces also, but usually the provinces around Bangkok like Nakhon Pathon and just haven't run into any Chip & PIN only machines. Now in these provincial stores they have the POS machines that accept chipped or magnetic debit or credit cards....had those for a long time.

More and more Thais are getting credit cards now days and most Thai credit cards come with chips. In addition to Thai bank credit cards, AEON credit cards which many Thais have are chipped cards. Since more and more Thais have credit cards which are usually chipped maybe that's why the cinema had a Chip and PIN only machine...should still be plenty of Thais with the right kind of chipped card to slide into their machine.

Strange most Thai banks issue their credit cards with chips, but not necessarily their debit cards.

But as far as I know Bangkok Bank seems to be the only Thai bank with chipped debit cards so far...but maybe there are others and someone else will chime in.

Periodically I read a Bank of Thailand release that they want Thai banks to fully transition to chipped cards and make their ATMs EMV-capable (i.e., chip reading capable) and I thought it was within another year or two...but it don't seem like most Thai banks (other than Bangkok Bank and maybe Krungsri Bank ATMs) are truly interested in spending a bunch of money ASAP to upgrade their ATMs and issue new chipped debit cards, but they'll eventually get there.

[Pib]

Here's a 22 Oct 2014 article talking implementation of Chip & PIN/EMV in Thailand with a few extracts posted below:

https://medium.com/@markpeak/chip-and-pin-the-future-of-emv-payment-card-in-thailand-267a72506778#.sd4kqsyxl

If the article is correct Thailand has until 1 Oct 17 to complete its transition to chipped cards before the liability shift occurs.

The deadline of Liability Shift varies by country. The latest information I can find is from Visa in 2013:

• April 17, 2015 — US ATMs must support EMV chip
• October 1, 2015 — Liability Shift in all Asia Pacific, excluding China, India, Japan, and Thailand
• October 1, 2017 — Liability Shift in China, India, Japan, and Thailand

That means the merchants or banks in Thailand will be the one who pay the compensate if the fraud happens beyond 2017 and they still use the old magnetic system.

Situation in Thailand

I must admit Thailand is chasing the world. The good news is we have some plans:

• Credit card: all credit cards in Thailand are EMV capable. Though the verification process is by signature (Chip and Signature). Big numbers of payment terminals need upgrades with numpads.
• Debit card: almost all debit cards in Thailand are magnetic strip cards. The verification is also by signature (Magnetic and Signature).
• ATM card: almost all ATM cards are also magnetic strip. Though the verification is using 4-digit PIN (Magnetic and PIN). Most of debit cards are also ATM cards.
• Bangkok Bank seems to be the only bank in Thailand issuing EMV debit card. The card is called Be1st Smart.

[recom273]

I'm just surprised you have run into any machines so far in Thailand that will "only" accept a Chip & PIN card...flat out don't want magnetic strip cards.

This was purely out of interest .. Every time I sign my name in name one the paper in big c, it's next to the PIN machine. I get a sms to my phone and the assistant doesn't even check the signature against the card ( not that it's really necessary in this day and age ).

I just remember how simple things were back home sometimes, waving your wallet over the reader in Starbucks, checking out yourself at Asda, paying for anything however small with a card without raising an eyebrow .. Not having the cashier having to call the manager over to explain to you that there is a 3% surcharge if you pay by card.

Then what a pain it was to buy a movie ticket at the weekend .. It's the first time I had been in 5 years, so no biggie - but just got me wondering when will the system will change ?

Thanks for the link.

[SaintLouisBlues]

To be completely correct, chip AND pin is only required (where it is used) for transactions above a certain value. Below that value it's chip only. I've just been in Australia recently, and their "chip only" limit is $100. Above that you have to enter your PIN as well. There have been a number of stories in the UK press recently about how "chip only" can encourage theft of the card. As I recall the Bangkok Bank chip is an older technology, and only works in their proprietary readers (such as the Rabbit machine you see on the counters of Au Bon Pain). I've never had one, but the machine looks as though it's chip only, too - no PIN

It works exactly the same way whether it's a chipped debit or a chipped credit card. Apple Pay uses the same readers but doesn't need a PIN (that's the fallback) since you have the security of your iPhone's fingerprint technology to do the verification. However Apple Pay is only in a handful of countries since Apple wants their "cut" of the interbank transaction fees, and banks in many countries won't play along. In Australia it only works with an American Express-issued card, for example - not even a bank-branded Amex card

I've shopped recently at both Tesco Lotus and Tops; they seem to have new-looking chip-reader cards in place but being used for credit cards only

Roll on the day when I can use a Visa debit card issued by a Thai bank to pay for my over-the-internet shopping (eg. Tops Online home delivery)

Edited December 31, 2015 by SaintLouisBlues

[lopburi3]

Tesco lotus has allowed use of debit card (at home) for home delivery payment for years.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Tesco lotus has allowed use of debit card (at home) for home delivery payment for years.

That's of no interest to me. Anyone can pay on delivery by debit card or cash for Tops Online too. I want to pay online, not pay on delivery - you know, the way you can in the civilised world

[lopburi3]

I have also paid online for Tesco delivery.

[SaintLouisBlues]

I have also paid online for Tesco delivery.

Whether it's Tesco or not is surely irrelevant. Every debit card from whichever bank states officially (but we all know what officially means in Thailand) "cannot be used for electronic transactions"

[recom273]

I have also paid online for Tesco delivery.

Whether it's Tesco or not is surely irrelevant. Every debit card from whichever bank states officially (but we all know what officially means in Thailand) "cannot be used for electronic transactions"

Yeah, kind of correct -

I have an online virtual shopping card from Kasikorn .. Do you not have this option with your bank ?

It would be much easier to just enter your details from the card, and it's a pain logging on and then doing the sms routine to view your number.

I guess the plastic cards offer no consumer protection - either online or in person. When was the last time anyone checked the signature when you paid for your shopping at big C ? In the UK, if a white guy rocked up at the till with card from "Mrs G. Patel" and signed the slip "Mickey mouse" someone would pick up in it - here no one cares to check.

Edited January 2, 2016 by recom273

[SaintLouisBlues]

I have also paid online for Tesco delivery.

Whether it's Tesco or not is surely irrelevant. Every debit card from whichever bank states officially (but we all know what officially means in Thailand) "cannot be used for electronic transactions"

Yeah, kind of correct - I have an online virtual shopping card from Kasikorn .. Do you not have this option with your bank ?

No, I bank with Krungsri because they offered me online banking when I didn't have an appropriate visa. They don't seem to have an online shopping card

[SaintLouisBlues]

I have also paid online for Tesco delivery.

Whether it's Tesco or not is surely irrelevant. Every debit card from whichever bank states officially (but we all know what officially means in Thailand) "cannot be used for electronic transactions"

In the UK, if a white guy rocked up at the till with card from "Mrs G. Patel" and signed the slip "Mickey mouse" someone would pick up in it - here no one cares to check.

The whole point of chip-and-PIN is to do away with signing a slip. Either you know the PIN or you don't

[recom273]

I have also paid online for Tesco delivery.

Whether it's Tesco or not is surely irrelevant. Every debit card from whichever bank states officially (but we all know what officially means in Thailand) "cannot be used for electronic transactions"

Yeah, kind of correct - I have an online virtual shopping card from Kasikorn .. Do you not have this option with your bank ?

No, I bank with Krungsri because they offered me online banking when I didn't have an appropriate visa. They don't seem to have an online shopping card

That's balls man .. I was Bank of Bangkok a long while ago, I couldn't register for online banking either.

Try opening kasikorn account, getting online banking is without restriction but it takes a little time to setup the whole setup between your home/phone/bank and ATM machine.

Then you will have a virtual card ( number / expiry / CSV number ) that's stored within your profile. The only trouble is, you need to log-in and go through the procedure to retrieve it - or write it down on a bit of paper and keep in your wallet ( which defeats the object )

Is this the only country in the world that has a banking system like this ? ( no personalized cards, restrictions on opening an account, no sort code system, no postal bank statements, fees for depositing funds .. And the non-implementation of 15 year old technology )

I lost my platinum card the other week - free unlimited replacement card - "sorry sir, can you come back next year, we have run out of cards" "can you just give me a regular card for free ?" "Sorry sir, you'll have to go to another bank" - after 10 minutes of me sitting there and telling them to go to the other branch and collect it - they finally gave me a regular card for free .. Seems like the banks are managed by 7 year old children.

Edited January 2, 2016 by recom273

[SaintLouisBlues]

Yeah, kind of correct - I have an online virtual shopping card from Kasikorn .. Do you not have this option with your bank ?

No, I bank with Krungsri because they offered me online banking when I didn't have an appropriate visa. They don't seem to have an online shopping card

Is this the only country in the world that has a banking system like this ? ( no personalized cards, restrictions on opening an account, no sort code system, no postal bank statements, fees for depositing funds .. And the non-implementation of 15 year old technology )

In Thailand's banking system's favor (and this is the only thing I can think *is* in its favor) is that you get real-time notification of the bank account holder's name when you do a transfer to any other bank in Thailand - useful if you've never transferred money to that person before. I've caught out a couple of scammers that way who didn't realise I had Internet banking access, and had just given me the bank account number of some alleged charity. Got very flustered when I reported back the account holder's name. I can't think that that's a feature of the US banking system, for example

[lopburi3]

Actually the number of ATM's available here is outstanding - and all major banks are in a pool system so even the very small charge to use another banks ATM is seldom required to be paid.

Banks have extend hours and 7 day a week counter service at most shopping centers.

Most account actually pay some interest.

[SaintLouisBlues]

And just to reinforce my original point, The Guardian (UK) reports today that "one in every 10 card payments we make is now contactless, suggesting that the “wave and pay” revolution is gathering pace" - at a value of 120m GBP

[recom273]

Actually the number of ATM's available here is outstanding - and all major banks are in a pool system so even the very small charge to use another banks ATM is seldom required to be paid.

Banks have extend hours and 7 day a week counter service at most shopping centers.

Most account actually pay some interest.

In the UK every bank and building society is in 'the pool' and it's not allowed to make a charge when you use another banks machine. Here, a charge is made, even when using your own bank out of the province.

I remember a few years back working for a company here that deducted 25B to deposit your salary if you chose a different bank from theirs.

Still, it's just one small thing to put up with and when the sun shines I forget it.

I would love to see contact-less payment here, my wife is forever stealing my cash out of my pockets before I wake .. That would put a stop to that, I guess she would just take my card then.

Edited January 2, 2016 by recom273

[SaintLouisBlues]

Australia works the same way as Thailand - banks typically charge $2 for use of one bank's card in another bank's ATM

[recom273]

Australia works the same way as Thailand - banks typically charge $2 for use of one bank's card in another bank's ATM

It's been a long time since I was there, but the UK banks used to make a charge, but there was an inquiry - services that don't cost any money - shouldn't incur charges. So in today's world of linked computers where money flows in and out on a keystroke, the charge was scrapped.

There were still small machines, that were like 'private' ATM's that made a charge - but easier to walk to the nearest free machine.

[orientalist]

I now have two new chip debit cards, but I'm having a hard time finding reliable information on whether the magnetic stripe can be skimmed and that data used for fraudulent transactions. I'm pretty sure the magnetic stripe can be skimmed, but...

Can that data be used for fraud?

If so, how and where?