EU exit could lead to break up of UK, says Lord Hague

[Grouse]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 16:07, said:

SgtRock, on 25 Dec 2015 - 14:31, said:

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

There have been many earlier threads on this topic which I have replied to at length and yes, most of the contributions were in my opinion ill thought out and ill informed

I have stated quite clearly that I am pro Europe generally for all sorts of reasons having lived on the continent for many years

I am also quite negative towards American social norms

These are personal opinions

However, the massive rise in inequality and the increasing Xenophobic attitudes in England worry me

The social contracts in much of continental Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France etc) seems to result in greater happiness generally than I observe in England these days

Financially, I do think the membership cost is worth it. According to Wiki, we have a GDP approaching 3 trillion USD (as at Sept 2015). Membership at about 0.3% of GDP is reasonable IMHO

The UK benefits greatly from inward investment BECAUSE we are in the EU

Also around 50% of our trade is with the EU

From what I read, a majority of business leaders want to remain in

Why do you think I have been in coma because of my opinion on European systems?

Check out typical pension provisions....

Also worth looking at Gini coefficients

American social norms, your personal opinion, xenophobic attitudes in England, the social contracts in much of continental Europe and Wiki do not really have much bearing on the actual topic.

Thank you for confirming what I already knew.

Reasonable debate is something that is beyond you.

I think this is a perfectly reasonable debate

My personal opinion is exactly what this is about

And I do think Xenophobic attitudes are a contributory factor

The social contracts in Europe is an essential point, why do we Brits opt out of good things?

My guess is that people have not really seen it for themselves

Final, statistics generally are 72% accurate.......

Reasonable debate constitutes what IYHO?

[nontabury]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 13:49, said:

My comment at 02 was a reaction to all the "shoot from the hip comments" we get on this issue

My point is that it is a complex nuanced issue

I am posting articles to try and illustrate the point

Clearly keeping out of the Euro was the correct decision

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of leaving justify the disadvantages and the risks

I am pro Europe on many levels including the civilised nature of their systems generally speaking

Have you looked at typical pension provisions for example?

Infrastructure?

Health?

Equality?

Happiness even

So, let's have a reasoned debate!

Bt the way, we have a representative democracy - we don't need a plebiscite on every damn thing!

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

There have been many earlier threads on this topic which I have replied to at length and yes, most of the contributions were in my opinion ill thought out and ill informed

I have stated quite clearly that I am pro Europe generally for all sorts of reasons having lived on the continent for many years

I am also quite negative towards American social norms

These are personal opinions

However, the massive rise in inequality and the increasing Xenophobic attitudes in England worry me

The social contracts in much of continental Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France etc) seems to result in greater happiness generally than I observe in England these days

Financially, I do think the membership cost is worth it. According to Wiki, we have a GDP approaching 3 trillion USD (as at Sept 2015). Membership at about 0.3% of GDP is reasonable IMHO

The UK benefits greatly from inward investment BECAUSE we are in the EU

Also around 50% of our trade is with the EU

From what I read, a majority of business leaders want to remain in

Why do you think I have been in coma because of my opinion on European systems?

Check out typical pension provisions....

Also worth looking at Gini coefficients

------------ ------------- ------------

You have never been able to justify the UK paying £50,000,000 into this corrupt club each and every single day.

The U.K. Trade deficit with the rest of the EU is 61.6 billion a year according to the office of National statistics,yet you still consider membership to be worthwhile, on this I have to agree with you, it is worthwhile for the EU and some very big businesses, unfortunately not for the UK and most importantly it's people.quote]

[uptheos]

How on earth did that obnoxious schoolboy, still famous ONLY for his Margaret Thatcher speech as a schoolboy, ever get to be PM and then shoved off to the Lords later?

LORD HAGUE

[Grouse]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 13:49, said:

My comment at 02 was a reaction to all the "shoot from the hip comments" we get on this issue

My point is that it is a complex nuanced issue

I am posting articles to try and illustrate the point

Clearly keeping out of the Euro was the correct decision

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of leaving justify the disadvantages and the risks

I am pro Europe on many levels including the civilised nature of their systems generally speaking

Have you looked at typical pension provisions for example?

Infrastructure?

Health?

Equality?

Happiness even

So, let's have a reasoned debate!

Bt the way, we have a representative democracy - we don't need a plebiscite on every damn thing!

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

There have been many earlier threads on this topic which I have replied to at length and yes, most of the contributions were in my opinion ill thought out and ill informed

I have stated quite clearly that I am pro Europe generally for all sorts of reasons having lived on the continent for many years

I am also quite negative towards American social norms

These are personal opinions

However, the massive rise in inequality and the increasing Xenophobic attitudes in England worry me

The social contracts in much of continental Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France etc) seems to result in greater happiness generally than I observe in England these days

Financially, I do think the membership cost is worth it. According to Wiki, we have a GDP approaching 3 trillion USD (as at Sept 2015). Membership at about 0.3% of GDP is reasonable IMHO

The UK benefits greatly from inward investment BECAUSE we are in the EU

Also around 50% of our trade is with the EU

From what I read, a majority of business leaders want to remain in

Why do you think I have been in coma because of my opinion on European systems?

Check out typical pension provisions....

Also worth looking at Gini coefficients

------------ ------------- ------------

You have never been able to justify the UK paying £50,000,000 into this corrupt club each and every single day.

The U.K. Trade deficit with the rest of the EU is 61.6 billion a year according to the office of National statistics,yet you still consider membership to be worthwhile, on this I have to agree with you, it is worthwhile for the EU and some very big businesses, unfortunately not for the UK and most importantly it's people.quote]

You ignore the benefits

Please remove blinkers and look at the NET cost/benefit

If it was a NET cost of 50M GBP then I would agree with you.

However, I have to consider the total effect

[Grouse]

Here's what the New Statesman has to say......

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/eu-explainer-easily-bored-cost-uk

Remember, 72% of statistics are just made up!

[Scott]

Politician's have names. Use them correctly.

One post with an aberrant spelling of a politician's name has been removed.

[MaeJoMTB]

You ignore the benefits

We (three of us bumpkins) asked for an explanation of the benefits?

you couldn't name any!

[nontabury]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 13:49, said:


My comment at 02 was a reaction to all the "shoot from the hip comments" we get on this issue

My point is that it is a complex nuanced issue

I am posting articles to try and illustrate the point

Clearly keeping out of the Euro was the correct decision

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of leaving justify the disadvantages and the risks

I am pro Europe on many levels including the civilised nature of their systems generally speaking

Have you looked at typical pension provisions for example?

Infrastructure?

Health?

Equality?

Happiness even

So, let's have a reasoned debate!

Bt the way, we have a representative democracy - we don't need a plebiscite on every damn thing!

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

There have been many earlier threads on this topic which I have replied to at length and yes, most of the contributions were in my opinion ill thought out and ill informed

I have stated quite clearly that I am pro Europe generally for all sorts of reasons having lived on the continent for many years

I am also quite negative towards American social norms

These are personal opinions

However, the massive rise in inequality and the increasing Xenophobic attitudes in England worry me

The social contracts in much of continental Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France etc) seems to result in greater happiness generally than I observe in England these days

Financially, I do think the membership cost is worth it. According to Wiki, we have a GDP approaching 3 trillion USD (as at Sept 2015). Membership at about 0.3% of GDP is reasonable IMHO

The UK benefits greatly from inward investment BECAUSE we are in the EU

Also around 50% of our trade is with the EU

From what I read, a majority of business leaders want to remain in

Why do you think I have been in coma because of my opinion on European systems?

Check out typical pension provisions....

Also worth looking at Gini coefficients

------------ ------------- ------------




You have never been able to justify the UK paying £50,000,000 into this corrupt club each and every single day.

The U.K. Trade deficit with the rest of the EU is 61.6 billion a year according to the office of National statistics,yet you still consider membership to be worthwhile, on this I have to agree with you, it is worthwhile for the EU and some very big businesses, unfortunately not for the UK and most importantly it's people.quote]

You ignore the benefits

Please remove blinkers and look at the NET cost/benefit

If it was a NET cost of 50M GBP then I would agree with you.

However, I have to consider the total effect

The net cost of £33,000,000 per day is still to high, plus I cannot accept any figures supplied by the EU commission as being reliable,especially as the EU has not been able to provide audited accounts for 20 yrs.

I notice you have again failed to address the UK's trade deficit with the EU, the figure of 61.6 billion being supplied by the Office of National Statistics.

Finally why do you lack so much confidence in your own countries ability to manage it's own affairs?

[SgtRock]

Finally why do you lack so much confidence in your own countries ability to manage it's own affairs ?

He is not British. He is a European desperate for the UK to stay in the EU.

[emilymat]

How on earth did that obnoxious schoolboy, still famous ONLY for his Margaret Thatcher speech as a schoolboy, ever get to be PM and then shoved off to the Lords later?

LORD HAGUE

I remember watching that speech. I thought at the time "How dare a teenager, who had never done a days work in his life, lecture the workers of the country". Typical Tory attitude.

[Grouse]

Wrong!

A well travelled and well educated Yorkshireman

Did you read the New Statesman piece I posted?

You guys don't accept the articles I post or my personal opinions

Fine! Off to the pub

( BTW, German beer is the best in the world!)

[nontabury]

Wrong!

A well travelled and well educated Yorkshireman

Did you read the New Statesman piece I posted?

You guys don't accept the articles I post or my personal opinions

Fine! Off to the pub

( BTW, German beer is the best in the world!)

Who are you referring to as a well educated Yorkshireman ? You or Haigh.

Please note that I am a Yorkshireman,well traveled, not much formal education but enough to decipher bullshit from common sense. Plus, when I ask questions as in my previous post, I can only respect someone who actually gives a straight answer.

Must admit I don't know much about German beer. Barnsley bitter was a good drink until the brewery was taken over by one of the big boys.

[Brit_Doggie]

He a lord for what did he do for my country oh yeah they called it fcked up.