Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[MorristheRunt]

Watched a great series on Pornthip Rojanasunand last night. Google "crime scene bangkok". Shows a lot what goes on with the investigative process in thailand, her battles with the police (for showing up their manipulation of crime scenes) and how she wants to have a medical forensic department that is seperate to the police who still today have control over criminal forensics.

They have their reasons of course but it would have made this case more "fair and transparent" as they say.

Remarkable woman, loved by millions who is a national hero for exposing flaws in criminal cases.

Remarkable woman? maybe......but her reputation was destroyed because of the bomb detector scam....sad but true!

[RWA]

So, RTP- fanboys: you suggest, that there is evidence, that we haven't seen or heard about?!

Evidence, only some inner circle members (and the Miller- family) know about?!

Why exactly, would that be so?

Even the judge, who handed down the judgement said, that the case is flawed, but the DNA- evidence was the most compelling part (which means, in my reading: even that was flawed!).

So we have seen all the failures and fumbles, all the mistakes, all the "I don't know" and "it is used up".

We have seen the case been sent back a total of 3 times and we all have heard all the questions and all the doubts!

All that has been made public...but the ONE "evidence", that links the B2 to the crime without any doubt and so clear, that a death -sentence has been spoken...THAT part of evidence, is the only thing, that has been kept a secret?!

On what planet does that make ANY sense?

If the semen found inside Hannah's body was that of the B2 then that trumps EVERYTHING else. Nothing else matters, unless you think that they raped Hannah and then somebody else murdered them, which wouldn't actually make that much sense!!

IF the semen has been FOUND inside ...., then it proves ONLY that there has been a sex-intercourse, NOT a RAPE, NOR THE MURDER!!!

Got it?!!!

[MorristheRunt]

The big picture is simple: The 2 accused have been convicted in Court. A request for appeal is due within 30 days of reading of the verdict. According to Section 193 of Thai Criminal Procedure (1934) an appeal must be based upon questions of fact and of Law.

All the rest is now side show.

So if at an appeal the defence brought a witness that's witnesed Mr X or Mr Y on the beach moving a couple of bodies and Mr X and Mr Y were not the 2 Burmese would the judge allow this or would that be a side show Thai style?

[StealthEnergiser]

The iPhone found 16Sept. 2014 does not belong to David Miller.

David's friend confirm that he got iPhone 4s not iPhone 4.

The big question still remains: : To who belongs the iphone the police found first?

Capture Not Davids phone.PNGIPhone4SiPhone4 Comparison ikik.png

Yes that's a great question who's phone was It maybe it belongs to the real killers .

[DM07]

This thread is getting lame...

It's normal to feel deflated after a victory!! I have lost the impetus to post now.

Victory? Is this how you see this thread? Something to be won? A contest?

You have "won" nothing, least of all the argument and certainly no respect.

Minds of 15 year old bullies!

Nothing more!

[MorristheRunt]

The iPhone found 16Sept. 2014 does not belong to David Miller.

David's friend confirm that he got iPhone 4s not iPhone 4.

The big question still remains: : To who belongs the iphone the police found first?

Capture Not Davids phone.PNGIPhone4SiPhone4 Comparison ikik.png

Yes that's a great question who's phone was It maybe it belongs to the real killers .

And the more importantly so, WHERE IS IT NOW?

Probably in the bin with the DNA, CCTV, Clothes and murder weapon.

Edited December 30, 2015 by MorristheRunt

[choff56]

Yes noted. Shame there was no cctv made available from ac bar eh? or customers taking photographs of an argument. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

What caught my attention was that it sounded like it was not just one or two people saying this but quite a number.

Yes -- quite a number... and still not one piece of corroborable evidence that such an event ever took place.

The cognitive dissonance is amazing, on one hand they cling like limpets to stale rumors that have never been substantiated in any credible way, on the other they can't ran away fast enough from actual, verifiable facts that go against what they want to believe.

Something doesn't add up when you use "cognitive dissonance" and "they can't ran away fast enough", in the same sentence. You have to be a vested Koh Tao expat, and English is definitely not you first language. Are things that bad on the Island now where you can find the time to post the crap that you do, day in and day out?

[JLCrab]

The big picture is simple: The 2 accused have been convicted in Court. A request for appeal is due within 30 days of reading of the verdict. According to Section 193 of Thai Criminal Procedure (1934) an appeal must be based upon questions of fact and of Law.

All the rest is now side show.

So if at an appeal the defence brought a witness that's witnesed Mr X or Mr Y on the beach moving a couple of bodies and Mr X and Mr Y were not the 2 Burmese would the judge allow this or would that be a side show Thai style?

I guess that in part would depend upon when the the defense first found out about the new mystery witness. However, for that, the defense would have to been first granted an appeal. -- other than that, ask the Judge.

[TheCruncher]

So, RTP- fanboys: you suggest, that there is evidence, that we haven't seen or heard about?!

Evidence, only some inner circle members (and the Miller- family) know about?!

Why exactly, would that be so?

Even the judge, who handed down the judgement said, that the case is flawed, but the DNA- evidence was the most compelling part (which means, in my reading: even that was flawed!).

So we have seen all the failures and fumbles, all the mistakes, all the "I don't know" and "it is used up".

We have seen the case been sent back a total of 3 times and we all have heard all the questions and all the doubts!

All that has been made public...but the ONE "evidence", that links the B2 to the crime without any doubt and so clear, that a death -sentence has been spoken...THAT part of evidence, is the only thing, that has been kept a secret?!

On what planet does that make ANY sense?

If the semen found inside Hannah's body was that of the B2 then that trumps EVERYTHING else. Nothing else matters, unless you think that they raped Hannah and then somebody else murdered them, which wouldn't actually make that much sense!!

IF the semen has been FOUND inside ...., then it proves ONLY that there has been a sex-intercourse, NOT a RAPE, NOR THE MURDER!!!

Got it?!!!

And it also proves that the B2 ar lying about there story, unless they have a flying dick.

[MorristheRunt]

The big picture is simple: The 2 accused have been convicted in Court. A request for appeal is due within 30 days of reading of the verdict. According to Section 193 of Thai Criminal Procedure (1934) an appeal must be based upon questions of fact and of Law.

All the rest is now side show.

So if at an appeal the defence brought a witness that's witnesed Mr X or Mr Y on the beach moving a couple of bodies and Mr X and Mr Y were not the 2 Burmese would the judge allow this or would that be a side show Thai style?

I guess that in part would depend upon when the the defense first found out about the new mystery witness. However, for that, the defense would have to been first granted an appeal. -- other than that, ask the Judge.

I was asking you, as you seem to have an incredible knowledge of the Thai legal system.

[DM07]

Let me get one thing straight: in the translated statement of the judge, I read something about the B2's semen in the vagina (one of them) and the anus of the female victim.

On the other hand, there is the statement, that no signs of rape were found.

Any ideas on that?

I have some of my own and one of them is very disturbing (and might also leave some marks).

Another one is: just another staged "evidence" by the glorious RTP!

[RWA]

Amnesty International have called for an independent investigation into the trial (good luck with that!) and the UK newspapers have also highlighted in their reports that Thailand is known to use torture to extract confessions from the innocent. None of this will make any difference to the Thai authorities. Even my Thai wife is disgusted!

The courts ignored the confessions made by the B2 so an enquiry into that is irrelevant- if you want to know who the experts at torture are can I just say Guantanamo Bay and water boarding, plus stripping people naked and photographing them lying together on top of each other in piles (I won't tell you what this reminded me of as it is too grotesque to mention) for the amusement of the guards!!! I believe they also put bags over their heads and cocked a gun plus an assortment of other abuses. How does what they SUPPOSEDLY did compare to this?

They weren't tortured, it's standard practice for those in custody to claim this and standard practice for these human rights people to encourage them to proclaim that it happened. Did anyone notice that has soon as the HR jumped in they retracted their confessions and not before, a coincidence? I don't think so!!

I don't even know why I have brought this up actually, as it played no part in the trial.

1.) ... yes, you're right, you shouldn't bring this up. It's a rubbish

2.) ... "standard practice for those in custody" is:

a) ... being held in a POLICE custody, not a private hotel room, that

is owned by one of the main suspect

... being brought in to the custody upon a court warrant has been

presented to you, which you can read, understand and comprehend

c) ... have your rights spelled out for you, ensure you've understood / accept

d) ... have been provided with an official translator (certified by court), not a

street vendor who barely speaks (and cannot read) the language either

of the interrogators AND/OR those to be interrogated

e) ... have your embassy informed & consular assistance/consultancy offered

f) ... have your legal representative present prior to any interrogation begun

if any one of these hasn't been done, not only your human rights have been

violated, but you can, as well, call it a "torture" (physical and mental)

[fayou]

International standard practises of the DNA collection?
The two accused were released after DNA samples did not match at first.
(Video at 5.53 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdGTqXCqWdM

[lucky11]

I'm saying that it is highly unlikely that, don't forget, they were exceedingly drunk at the time because they allegedly rarely drunk alcohol and it took it's toll on them.

Now why would he (Win) clamber out of bed at 4.00/4.30 AM and go, all alone, down to the beach and mysteriously find a phone and sunglasses?

The whole episode is so far fetched that I wouldn't believe it if the pope told me himself.

If David and Hannah had been murdered, how did both his sunglasses and mobile end up lying in the sand and before you know it, in Win's possession. How did they get separated from him? Think about it, he (David) went to the beach with Hannah, supposedly dropped both his phone and sunglasses in the sand on the way to a secluded area and Win ended up finding them both at 5.00 AM in the morning.

I'm sorry, but in whatever way you look at it this is so ludicrous and sort of story made up by a 5 year old!!

Those that changed their minds as to their belief of innocence or guilt after hearing this series of events are to be commended (Greenchair definitely and I think Stander) others should remove their blinkers and do a bit of serious thinking about their current stance. Don't worry, only Thai's are concerned about losing face. We will congratulate you for manning up to your mistake and welcome you with open arms into our camp - the camp that wants justice delivered to the families for the tragic loss of a daughter and son!!

[MorristheRunt]

International standard practises of the DNA collection?

The two accused were released after DNA samples did not match at first.

(Video at 5.53 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdGTqXCqWdM1412455o (2).jpg

Those pictures and the aledged DNA migrant test's were a sham for the worlds press.

These tests were carried out when the RTP was actively looking for a person of interest in Bangkok ( I believe he was a student) and another Thai man who had been questioned and HAD REFUSED a DNA test.

But if they were real let us see the results, because the RTP would have two sets of samples from the 2 accused......Do they? and do they both match?

[TheCruncher]

Let me get one thing straight: in the translated statement of the judge, I read something about the B2's semen in the vagina (one of them) and the anus of the female victim.

On the other hand, there is the statement, that no signs of rape were found.

Any ideas on that?

I have some of my own and one of them is very disturbing (and might also leave some marks).

Another one is: just another staged "evidence" by the glorious RTP!

Someone can have semen inside without being raped. Ever heard about consensual sex?

Now just imagine that some previous lover turns up at the point that 3 people have consensual sex, gets confused about the situation, and doesn't like what he sees.

He start to fight the 2 male parts, who defend themselves and actually kill him without intend. They panic at that point, as they realize that the sex scene has now become a murder scene.

So in their aim to destroy all traces to them they kill the female as well.

Remember the statement from Sean where says, "I know you only wanted to protect her David"? The same Sean that had blood on his guitar.

I think that Sean know much more and was actually a VERY CLOSE witness of it all

Edited December 30, 2015 by TheCruncher

[DiscoDan]

Let me get one thing straight: in the translated statement of the judge, I read something about the B2's semen in the vagina (one of them) and the anus of the female victim.

On the other hand, there is the statement, that no signs of rape were found.

Any ideas on that?

I have some of my own and one of them is very disturbing (and might also leave some marks).

Another one is: just another staged "evidence" by the glorious RTP!

The reason there could be no sign of rape is because the victim was unconcsious or dead.

No one ever said there was no sign of sexual intercourse.

[boomerangutang]

I don't think the phone has much bearing on the case. At most, it might show that one of them found or stole it. Big f'ing deal.

I do, however, think that the B2 saying they jumped in the sea at that time of night is odd. It's very uncharacteristic for an Asian to go in to the sea at night. Some rare farang do it, but it's not an Asian thing. My take on that is the B2 were washing off blood. Yikes, Boomer is implicating them in the crime! Hold on, not really. Here's how I see it:

The B2 and others were playing guitar around the beach fire. Some stragglers from nearby AC bar come to hang out. Likely Hannah, and just as likely one or more Thai guys who were hoping to get some nooky. Hannah and the Thai guys wander off south toward the rocks. Whether she's coerced or not, I can't say. David is not in that group. He's gone to his g.h. earlier, but soon after, he's concerned for Hannah, so goes out to find her. I'm not going to speculate how the crime unfolded in this missive, but instead focus on the B2's possible involvement. The B2 hear commotion about 60 meters away. It's dark. They go to see what's up. The crime is either over or just about to wrap up. The perps split. Maybe the B2 saw and/or know who the perps are, maybe not. The B2 are now in opportunistic mode. Maybe they have sex with the dead body, but I highly doubt it. More plausible, they glance around to see if there's anything worth stealing. I put together this possible scenario - mostly because of the report of the B2 going for a swim (...and their clothes purportedly gone missing).

I continue to strongly doubt they instigated (or were even involved with) the murders. As for rape: It's still not sure whether Hannah was raped. All we have is hearsay from cops - and officials who have an agenda. No tangible evidence of rape, neither by Thai nor Brit forensics. Hannah's clothing would help, but Thai police made sure that disappeared. Maybe they thought it (like the CCTV of a boat leaving the island soon after the crime) was too unimportant to bother with.

[DM07]

Let me get one thing straight: in the translated statement of the judge, I read something about the B2's semen in the vagina (one of them) and the anus of the female victim.

On the other hand, there is the statement, that no signs of rape were found.

Any ideas on that?

I have some of my own and one of them is very disturbing (and might also leave some marks).

Another one is: just another staged "evidence" by the glorious RTP!

Someone can have semen inside without being raped. Ever heard about consensual sex?

Now just imagine that some jealous lover turns up at the point that 3 people have consensual sex, and the jealous lover doesn't like what he sees.

He start to fight the 2 male parts, who defend themselves and actually kill him without intend. They panic at that point, as they realize that the sex scene has now become a murder scene.

So in their aim to destroy all traces to them they kill the female as well.

Remember the statement from Sean where I says, "I know you only wanted to protect her David"? The same Sean that had blood on his guitar.

I think that Sean know much more and was actually a VERY CLOSE witness of it all

So...the victim had consensual sex (vaginal & anal) with the B2?

And then David - who had no relationship with Hannah, but in your scenario is the jealous lover- shows up and get's killed by the B2, who then decide, that it would be better for them, to kill Hannah as well?

Wow!

This really must be the most stupid scenario I have heard so far!

[TheCruncher]

Let me get one thing straight: in the translated statement of the judge, I read something about the B2's semen in the vagina (one of them) and the anus of the female victim.

On the other hand, there is the statement, that no signs of rape were found.

Any ideas on that?

I have some of my own and one of them is very disturbing (and might also leave some marks).

Another one is: just another staged "evidence" by the glorious RTP!

Someone can have semen inside without being raped. Ever heard about consensual sex?

Now just imagine that some jealous lover turns up at the point that 3 people have consensual sex, and the jealous lover doesn't like what he sees.

He start to fight the 2 male parts, who defend themselves and actually kill him without intend. They panic at that point, as they realize that the sex scene has now become a murder scene.

So in their aim to destroy all traces to them they kill the female as well.

Remember the statement from Sean where I says, "I know you only wanted to protect her David"? The same Sean that had blood on his guitar.

I think that Sean know much more and was actually a VERY CLOSE witness of it all

So...the victim had consensual sex (vaginal & anal) with the B2?

And then David - who had no relationship with Hannah, but in your scenario is the jealous lover- shows up and get's killed by the B2, who then decide, that it would be better for them, to kill Hannah as well?

Wow!

This really must be the most stupid scenario I have heard so far!

Stupid because it doesn't stroke with YOUR theory?

Then just explain to us how the victim could have semen traces from BOTH suspects, without being raped OR having consensual sex.

Edited December 30, 2015 by TheCruncher

[DM07]

Let me get one thing straight: in the translated statement of the judge, I read something about the B2's semen in the vagina (one of them) and the anus of the female victim.

On the other hand, there is the statement, that no signs of rape were found.

Any ideas on that?

I have some of my own and one of them is very disturbing (and might also leave some marks).

Another one is: just another staged "evidence" by the glorious RTP!

The reason there could be no sign of rape is because the victim was unconcsious or dead.

No one ever said there was no sign of sexual intercourse.

I am quiet sure (though I can not prove it) that having non -consensual sex with an unconscience (or dead) person, would leave some marks...but I REALLY don't want to go into detail about that...especially the second part!

I honestly doubt, there was any semen to begin with, as we have NOTHING on this, but the notes of the RTP!

Nothing as in: no re-testable DNA, no chain of custody...just a big , steamy bunch of BS!

[DiscoDan]

International standard practises of the DNA collection?

The two accused were released after DNA samples did not match at first.

(Video at 5.53 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdGTqXCqWdM1412455o (2).jpg

Those pictures and the aledged DNA migrant test's were a sham for the worlds press.

These tests were carried out when the RTP was actively looking for a person of interest in Bangkok ( I believe he was a student) and another Thai man who had been questioned and HAD REFUSED a DNA test.

But if they were real let us see the results, because the RTP would have two sets of samples from the 2 accused......Do they? and do they both match?

They did this same trick in the UK years ago there was a murder in a small village so they told all the men to come for Dna test. they took all the details of the people who came and didn't test there dna and then went looking for the people that didn't show up.

No fingerprints found on the phone no fingerprints on the hoe they most probably thought they got away with it, until someone explained Dna thats most probably just before ZL decided to leave the island.

[DM07]

Let me get one thing straight: in the translated statement of the judge, I read something about the B2's semen in the vagina (one of them) and the anus of the female victim.

On the other hand, there is the statement, that no signs of rape were found.

Any ideas on that?

I have some of my own and one of them is very disturbing (and might also leave some marks).

Another one is: just another staged "evidence" by the glorious RTP!

Someone can have semen inside without being raped. Ever heard about consensual sex?

Now just imagine that some jealous lover turns up at the point that 3 people have consensual sex, and the jealous lover doesn't like what he sees.

He start to fight the 2 male parts, who defend themselves and actually kill him without intend. They panic at that point, as they realize that the sex scene has now become a murder scene.

So in their aim to destroy all traces to them they kill the female as well.

Remember the statement from Sean where I says, "I know you only wanted to protect her David"? The same Sean that had blood on his guitar.

I think that Sean know much more and was actually a VERY CLOSE witness of it all

So...the victim had consensual sex (vaginal & anal) with the B2?

And then David - who had no relationship with Hannah, but in your scenario is the jealous lover- shows up and get's killed by the B2, who then decide, that it would be better for them, to kill Hannah as well?

Wow!

This really must be the most stupid scenario I have heard so far!

Stupid because it doesn't stroke with YOUR theory?

Then just explain to us how the victim could have semen traces from BOTH suspects, without being raped OR having consensual sex.

How about: there was none!?

[lucky11]

Watched a great series on Pornthip Rojanasunand last night. Google "crime scene bangkok". Shows a lot what goes on with the investigative process in thailand, her battles with the police (for showing up their manipulation of crime scenes) and how she wants to have a medical forensic department that is seperate to the police who still today have control over criminal forensics.

They have their reasons of course but it would have made this case more "fair and transparent" as they say.

Remarkable woman, loved by millions who is a national hero for exposing flaws in criminal cases.

Shame that she doesn't have expertise in DNA collection and this meant that her inclusion in the defence effort sabotaged the defence team's pitiful display in the courts!! It is equivalent to getting a dustman in to do a house clearance of valuable paintings and antiques!!

[TheCruncher]

Someone can have semen inside without being raped. Ever heard about consensual sex?

Now just imagine that some jealous lover turns up at the point that 3 people have consensual sex, and the jealous lover doesn't like what he sees.

He start to fight the 2 male parts, who defend themselves and actually kill him without intend. They panic at that point, as they realize that the sex scene has now become a murder scene.

So in their aim to destroy all traces to them they kill the female as well.

Remember the statement from Sean where I says, "I know you only wanted to protect her David"? The same Sean that had blood on his guitar.

I think that Sean know much more and was actually a VERY CLOSE witness of it all

So...the victim had consensual sex (vaginal & anal) with the B2?

And then David - who had no relationship with Hannah, but in your scenario is the jealous lover- shows up and get's killed by the B2, who then decide, that it would be better for them, to kill Hannah as well?

Wow!

This really must be the most stupid scenario I have heard so far!

Stupid because it doesn't stroke with YOUR theory?

Then just explain to us how the victim could have semen traces from BOTH suspects, without being raped OR having consensual sex.

How about: there was none!?

No further question Mr investigator.

[MorristheRunt]

If the British coroner's inquest states that neither victim was raped, then the RTP and judge may have some explaining to do.

And if this is stated I would think in most civilised country's at the very lease a re-trial ordered or an acquittal.

Also the injuries, particularly in David's case.....The small puncture wounds on his face were not caused by a hoe......never.

So what caused them? and again why has the defence not brought that into question?

Edited December 30, 2015 by MorristheRunt

[fayou]

"We will ask the FBI to help identify the DNA in the semen we found - whether it belonged to an Asian or European,"

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief Somyot Pumpunmuang, while the FBI had "sophisticated technology".

http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/south-east-asia/story/thailands-police-ask-us-fbi-help-testing-semen-found-dead-british-to

[TheCruncher]

If the British coroner's inquest states that neither victim was raped, then the RTP and judge may have some explaining to do.

And if this is stated I would think in most civilised country's at the very lease a re-trial ordered or an acquittal.

Also the injuries, particularly in David's case.....The small puncture wounds on his face were not caused by a hoe......never.

So what caused them? and again why has the defence not brought that into question?

Maybe the defense is not capable to do their job, and some TV experts should have been asked for it.

Another theory is that the defense knows something the TV investigators don't .............................Naaah that isn't possible. Is it?

[Bung]

Watched a great series on Pornthip Rojanasunand last night. Google "crime scene bangkok". Shows a lot what goes on with the investigative process in thailand, her battles with the police (for showing up their manipulation of crime scenes) and how she wants to have a medical forensic department that is seperate to the police who still today have control over criminal forensics.

They have their reasons of course but it would have made this case more "fair and transparent" as they say.

Remarkable woman, loved by millions who is a national hero for exposing flaws in criminal cases.

Shame that she doesn't have expertise in DNA collection and this meant that her inclusion in the defence effort sabotaged the defence team's pitiful display in the courts!! It is equivalent to getting a dustman in to do a house clearance of valuable paintings and antiques!!

She has plenty of experience in dna collection, she has helped thousands of people get justice that would otherwise be denied to them. It's why people like her and the rtp don't. If she was called to do the forensic analysis of the crime scene intact instead of those others trampling all over the place she would have likely found the culprits but that wasnt what was required hence missing evidence and the prosecution not able to supply dna samples for verification. "Sorry,used up"....

[pedro01]

So, RTP- fanboys: you suggest, that there is evidence, that we haven't seen or heard about?!

Evidence, only some inner circle members (and the Miller- family) know about?!

Why exactly, would that be so?

Even the judge, who handed down the judgement said, that the case is flawed, but the DNA- evidence was the most compelling part (which means, in my reading: even that was flawed!).

So we have seen all the failures and fumbles, all the mistakes, all the "I don't know" and "it is used up".

We have seen the case been sent back a total of 3 times and we all have heard all the questions and all the doubts!

All that has been made public...but the ONE "evidence", that links the B2 to the crime without any doubt and so clear, that a death -sentence has been spoken...THAT part of evidence, is the only thing, that has been kept a secret?!

On what planet does that make ANY sense?

If the semen found inside Hannah's body was that of the B2 then that trumps EVERYTHING else. Nothing else matters, unless you think that they raped Hannah and then somebody else murdered them, which wouldn't actually make that much sense!!

IF the semen has been FOUND inside ...., then it proves ONLY that there has been a sex-intercourse, NOT a RAPE, NOR THE MURDER!!!

Got it?!!!

So you think that David and Hannah went out - then these 2 lads had consensual sex with Hannah while David twiddled his thumbs and then shortly afterwards someone killed David and Hannah?

And BTW - semen inside a body can prove rape - because there will be signs of forced entry.