How to pay missing UK National Insurance payments from Thailand?

[ianwuk]

Hello All.

I have been living in Thailand for around ten years now and, for the sake of the future, I would like to start repaying National Insurance again in the UK, I contacted HM Revenue and Customs who looked in to this for me and they said I have seven qualifying years of National Insurance payments (I am 32) How can I pay it using direct debit and do I need to pay each missing year in full or can I pay monthly or weekly from my Thai salary whilst working in Thailand?

Does Kasikorn bank accept direct debit for example?

Many thanks.

Ian.

Edited February 3, 2016 by ianwuk

[Satcommlee]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Satcommlee

[Satcommlee]

Actually there is a frightening new change

https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/eligibility

[beano2274]

Why would you want to pay the Contributions?

In the letter they send you they inform you how to pay.

[ianwuk]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

I already owe from years 2006 - 2015 which, in total, works out at unpaid NI contributions of around 5000 GBP (200,000 baht).

Do you know how I can start paying this all back as well as make future contributions as well from my Thai salary?

Why would you want to pay the Contributions?

In the letter they send you they inform you how to pay.

In the letter I got it says to set up Direct debit and it states how much I am overdue (alot, as mentioned) but nothing about how much I have to actually pay to start paying it back. How can I set up a Direct Debit using my Thai Kasikorn bank account?

Thanks for all the replies and advice.

Ian

Edited February 4, 2016 by ianwuk

[ianwuk]

Also, one other thing please.

Are there any private pension schemes I could sign up to replace the NI instead that I can set up from Thailand?

Does anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks.

Ian

[fletchsmile]

Check out this thread, post #31

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/613549-pension/?p=6052249

There's also quite a few other threads on Thai Visa around, although the search function / googling them isn't as useful as it used to be - maybe archived or somethhing

HMRC's main document on this is NI 38 which gets updated every so often. Read thru that and there's an application form at the back

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/414910/NI38_CF83.pdf

Check if you can pay class contributions, as they're cheaper than class 3

You can pay DD from a UK bank or building society. I don't think you'll find a Thai bank that does overseas DD. There used to be options to pay an annual amount instead of monthly.

Edited February 4, 2016 by fletchsmile

[ianwuk]

Check out this thread, post #31

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/613549-pension/?p=6052249

There's also quite a few other threads on Thai Visa around, although the search function / googling them isn't as useful as it used to be - maybe archived or somethhing

HMRC's main document on this is NI 38 which gets updated every so often. Read thru that and there's an application form at the back

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/414910/NI38_CF83.pdf

Check if you can pay class contributions, as they're cheaper than class 3

Thanks very much for this Fletch. It is all exceedingly confusing for me as I have only just started looking in to this. Who can I contact in Bangkok (e.g. law firm) for more help on this matter?

Is it possible to set up a private pension instead (whilst living in Thailand) that just deducts money from my Thai bank account (I already signed up for the Provident Fund with my work) and replaces the NI?

Many thanks.

Ian

[KittenKong]

I already owe from years 2006 - 2015 which, in total, works out at unpaid NI contributions of around 5000 GBP (200,000 baht).

Do you know how I can start paying this all back as well as make future contributions as well from my Thai salary?

In the letter I got it says to set up Direct debit and it states how much I am overdue (alot, as mentioned) but nothing about how much I have to actually pay to start paying it back. How can I set up a Direct Debit using my Thai Kasikorn bank account?

As far as I know you can only pay a maximum of 6 years back contributions, though there are some exceptions: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/who-can-pay-voluntary-contributions

Given that you have many years left to pay I would not worry unduly about a few missing years early on in your payment history.

Mentions of direct debits relate solely to UK bank accounts. You should consider getting a UK bank account if you dont have one, as it's much easier to pay from that but you can pay in other ways: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/deadlines

Small regular transfers from Thailand will probably cost you a lot in fees in the long run.

[ianwuk]

I already owe from years 2006 - 2015 which, in total, works out at unpaid NI contributions of around 5000 GBP (200,000 baht).

Do you know how I can start paying this all back as well as make future contributions as well from my Thai salary?

In the letter I got it says to set up Direct debit and it states how much I am overdue (alot, as mentioned) but nothing about how much I have to actually pay to start paying it back. How can I set up a Direct Debit using my Thai Kasikorn bank account?

As far as I know you can only pay a maximum of 6 years back contributions, though there are some exceptions: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/who-can-pay-voluntary-contributions

Given that you have many years left to pay I would not worry unduly about a few missing years early on in your payment history.

Mentions of direct debits relate solely to UK bank accounts. You should consider getting a UK bank account if you dont have one, as it's much easier to pay from that but you can pay in other ways: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/deadlines

Small regular transfers from Thailand will probably cost you a lot in fees in the long run.

Hello Kitten.

Thanks for replying.

As I mentioned, do you know if it is better to get a private pension instead? If so, do you know where I can start with that? I don't have a UK bank account any more. Again, how could I get one from Thailand?

Thanks again.

Ian

[KittenKong]

Who can I contact in Bangkok (e.g. law firm) for more help on this matter?

Is it possible to set up a private pension instead (whilst living in Thailand) that just deducts money from my Thai bank account (I already signed up for the Provident Fund with my work) and replaces the NI?

Stay away from law firms and advisers: they will only bleed you dry. Paying contributions is a very simple thing to arrange, and opening a private pension isnt hard either (though you want to get the right one).

Yes, you can open a private pension but this doesnt really replace the UK state pension. However the state pension and a contribution history is of much less interest if you think that you will never go back to the UK or the EU to live/retire. So you need to consider what you might be doing in the future.

At your age your best investment would be to buy some property in a desirable area, and preferably somewhere where you could live either now or in the future. If you dont want to live there now then renting it out should not be hard assuming that it is a desirable property. I have a simple rule about property which is "never buy anywhere that you wouldn't live in yourself", though I know that many people ignore this rule, apparently successfully, so I could be wrong. It's worked for me.

[KittenKong]

As I mentioned, do you know if it is better to get a private pension instead? If so, do you know where I can start with that? I don't have a UK bank account any more. Again, how could I get one from Thailand?

Some UK banks offer "basic" accounts for overseas customers but you might be better off looking at an offshore bank account that is still part of the UK banking system and so allows for direct debits or BACS (now FPS) payments. Some offshore providers have savings-type accounts that will do this and that dont require a big minimum balance. It all rather depends on how much money you want to deposit and what else you would use it for.

If you still have some connections with the UK then it should not be too hard to open a building society account using someone else's address, though you would need to be there to do this.

Another option of course is to get some UK-based friend to pay for you yearly, and pay them back.

[Pib]

As far as I know you can not do debits/pulls of money from Thai banks by banks/organizations/companies external to Thailand. Instead you must initiate the sending of money.

[fletchsmile]

My suggestion would be read thru the NI 38 leaflet, and then browse thru the HMRC website, it has a printable guide. That will answer many of the questions you have.The form at the back can be used once you've worked out what to do

NI 38 is a useful leaflet. On the website, for example, it tells you how to pay from overseas here:

https://www.gov.uk/pay-class-2-national-insurance/bank-details

How to contact them with enquiries is here

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/national-insurance-enquiries-for-non-uk-residents

If you're only 32 you've around 35 years to retirement. You can pay back-years of missed contributions for up to 6 years, but there's no obligation to do so and in your case probably no need. You currently only need 30 years to qualify for the maximum. You could just start paying from now.

Also means there's no rush either. I wouldn't waste money on lawyers. Class 2 if you're eligible - probably are if have worked in the UK previously is around GBP 2.80 per month. Or about 150 quid a year.

[ianwuk]

My suggestion would be read thru the NI 38 leaflet, and then browse thru the HMRC website, it has a printable guide. That will answer many of the questions you have.The form at the back can be used once you've worked out what to do

NI 38 is a useful leaflet. On the website, for example, it tells you how to pay from overseas here:

https://www.gov.uk/pay-class-2-national-insurance/bank-details

How to contact them with enquiries is here

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/national-insurance-enquiries-for-non-uk-residents

If you're only 32 you've around 35 years to retirement. You can pay back-years of missed contributions for up to 6 years, but there's no obligation to do so and in your case probably no need. You currently only need 30 years to qualify for the maximum. You could just start paying from now.

Also means there's no rush either. I wouldn't waste money on lawyers. Class 2 if you're eligible - probably are if have worked in the UK previously is around GBP 2.80 per month. Or about 150 quid a year.

Thanks for the reply.

I have looked at both those forms previously but I still don't understand the following:

1 - Can I just start paying NI now or must I first pay off the owed missing payments?

2 - I saw the online bank payment methods, how would I set that up with Kasikorn bank, or can't I?. I don't have a UK bank account.

3 - I don't know if I am classed as ordinarily resident in the UK based upon that form. I visit my parents every Christmas, but, apart from that, I guess I'm not, is that correct?

4 - I recieved my NI assessement in the post here in Thailand a few days ago. It doesn't say how much I would be paying back, just what has not been paid to date so I am a little confused (hence the search for legal help).

Many thanks again.

Ian

[fletchsmile]

My suggestion would be read thru the NI 38 leaflet, and then browse thru the HMRC website, it has a printable guide. That will answer many of the questions you have.The form at the back can be used once you've worked out what to do

NI 38 is a useful leaflet. On the website, for example, it tells you how to pay from overseas here:

https://www.gov.uk/pay-class-2-national-insurance/bank-details

How to contact them with enquiries is here

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/national-insurance-enquiries-for-non-uk-residents

If you're only 32 you've around 35 years to retirement. You can pay back-years of missed contributions for up to 6 years, but there's no obligation to do so and in your case probably no need. You currently only need 30 years to qualify for the maximum. You could just start paying from now.

Also means there's no rush either. I wouldn't waste money on lawyers. Class 2 if you're eligible - probably are if have worked in the UK previously is around GBP 2.80 per month. Or about 150 quid a year.

Thanks for the reply.

I have looked at both those forms previously but I still don't understand the following:

1 - Can I just start paying NI now or must I first pay off the owed missing payments?

2 - I saw the online bank payment methods, how would I set that up with Kasikorn bank, or can't I?. I don't have a UK bank account.

3 - I don't know if I am classed as ordinarily resident in the UK based upon that form. I visit my parents every Christmas, but, apart from that, I guess I'm not, is that correct?

4 - I recieved my NI assessement in the post here in Thailand a few days ago. It doesn't say how much I would be paying back, just what has not been paid to date so I am a little confused (hence the search for legal help).

Many thanks again.

Ian

1. No need to pay back the missing contributions. I also have years I've missed, but now pay. I currently pay Class 2 that goes out monthly / every 4 or 5 weeks from a Uk bank account.

Note: to get a contribution year you must pay the full amount for the year, so if you started today paying monthly for this year that wouldn't work for April 2015- April16. It would work for 2016-17. You'd probably have to do a lump

2. No Kasikorn won't be able to do monthly DD. If you've completed the form, decided whether to pay Class 2 or Class 3, you will get a letter from HMRC telling you how much to pay and when. There are options like sending a cheque. Through the post office. etc if you've no UK bank account. Kasikorn would be able to do overseas transfers manually - not automatic DD - but likely one lump sum a year would be better. That would need to be ppid to the account mentioned above on their website for overseas transfers. If you went this route, better to save up the money and do yearly/ six monthly/quarterly to cut down bank fees. They would tell you what your payment options are once you ask to start making voluntary contributions

3. If you've been outside UK for a several years, and only visit for Xmas you'll likely not be resident or ordinairly UK resident for tax.

4. That's probably just a standard letter. Could also be you've not updated your details. They are probably just making you aware that there are some years you aren't fully paid up for NI. To know how much you would need to back pay you'd need to fill a form in and request the info

You're key question would be if you qualify for Class 2 (i.e have you worked in UK accoring to the NI 38 leaflet conditions). If not you may only be eligible to pay Class3 which are quite a bit more expensive

---------------------------

You mentioned private pension. If you don't already have one and you're not earning any money or resident in the UK, it's unlikely you could start a new one. Plus many providers wouldn't want to take you anyway if you're not UK resident. Transferring existing private schemes is do-able, but adding to them unlikely.

Edited February 4, 2016 by fletchsmile

[fletchsmile]

From NI 38,

Annual payment allows you to pay NICs for a complete tax year, once a year in arrears, direct to HMRC. If you want to pay by this method, tick the appropriate box on form CF83 at the back of this leaflet and return to HMRC, NIC&EO International Caseworker at the address on page 33. You will be told each year how much you should pay in sterling and when payment is due. You can pay direct or through your bank or building society. You can get someone in the UK to pay your NICs for you. If you wish to do this, tick the appropriate box on form CF83 at the back of this leaflet and give your agent’s name and address. Your agent can pay your NICs by Direct Debit or annual payment. Ask your agent to wait until they receive a letter from HMRC, NIC&EO International Caseworker before paying your NICs.

[brewsterbudgen]

I just sent them a cheque.

[jacko45k]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

Not 35? I just reached 30 and was under the impression I had to keep them up.

To OP, I retain a UK bank account and have arranged a Direct Debit. They can be a bit obtuse to deal with to get things working.

You can also make back payments which I believe is limited to 6 years, but will be quite expensive.

Paynebt seems to vary between £65-70 p.c.m.

[ianwuk]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

Not 35? I just reached 30 and was under the impression I had to keep them up.

To OP, I retain a UK bank account and have arranged a Direct Debit. They can be a bit obtuse to deal with to get things working.

You can also make back payments which I believe is limited to 6 years, but will be quite expensive.

Paynebt seems to vary between £65-70 p.c.m.

I have filled out the NI38 form and I will post it at the weekend and see if they reply back. I choose to make annual payments of class 2 NICs.

Thanks.

Ian

[sometimewoodworker]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

Sorry not true you need 35 years for the full pension.

The amount to pay is going up each year so the longer you wait the more you have to pay.

Class 3

Years Per week Per year

2007~8 £7.80 £405.60

2008~9 £8.10 £421.20

2009~10 £12.05 £626.60

2010~11 £12.05 £626.60

2011~12 £12.60 £655.20

2012~13 £13.25 £689.00

2013~14 £13.35 £694.20

Edited February 5, 2016 by sometimewoodworker

[sometimewoodworker]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

Not 35? I just reached 30 and was under the impression I had to keep them up.

To OP, I retain a UK bank account and have arranged a Direct Debit. They can be a bit obtuse to deal with to get things working.

You can also make back payments which I believe is limited to 6 years, but will be quite expensive.

Paynebt seems to vary between £65-70 p.c.m.

I have filled out the NI38 form and I will post it at the weekend and see if they reply back. I choose to make annual payments of class 2 NICs.

Thanks.

Ian

You may not be eligible to pay class 2 contributions. It depends on a variety of factors. You may only be able to pay class 3.

If you care to do the math the UK pension is much better value than any private pension, even with class 3 payments.

If you open an account in the Isle of Mann in nationwide international you can make direct debits from that account. Is is considered to be off shore for tax, so you can open an account, however it is now inside the UK banking system so can function as if it were in the UK.

You will get a reply from HMRC however it will be several months as they are exceptional busy with the change in the pension system. They do answer the phone, but you will have to wait for the pension forecast before you know how much and when you can make payments.

Edited February 5, 2016 by sometimewoodworker

[ianwuk]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

Not 35? I just reached 30 and was under the impression I had to keep them up.

To OP, I retain a UK bank account and have arranged a Direct Debit. They can be a bit obtuse to deal with to get things working.

You can also make back payments which I believe is limited to 6 years, but will be quite expensive.

Paynebt seems to vary between £65-70 p.c.m.

I have filled out the NI38 form and I will post it at the weekend and see if they reply back. I choose to make annual payments of class 2 NICs.

Thanks.

Ian

You may not be eligible to pay class 2 contributions. It depends on a variety of factors. You may only be able to pay class 3.

If you care to do the math the UK pension is much better value than any private pension, even with class 3 payments.

If you open an account in the Isle of Mann in nationwide international you can make direct debits from that account. Is is considered to be off shore for tax, so you can open an account, however it is now inside the UK banking system so can function as if it were in the UK.

You will get a reply from HMRC however it will be several months as they are exceptional busy with the change in the pension system. They do answer the phone, but you will have to wait for the pension forecast before you know how much and when you can make payments.

Hello.

Thanks for replying.

Even if I select class 2 on the form, and I am only eligible for class 3 they should write to me to inform me of this? Is that correct? And then I can work out how to pay. I don't suppose I can set up any UK based account whilst being here in Thailand, right? They all seem to need me to be a UK resident. If I had a UK account it would be easier I suppose. I just want to start contributing to some sort of pension scheme, in the UK, whilst living and working in Thailand in case I ever decide to go back.

[crazykopite]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

As of April 2016 the 30 year requirement of payment has been increased to 35 years so you will have to start paying when your 43 and that's if they don't increase it again, you can never say never !

[crazykopite]

Are you going to live long enough to get your pension ? And by the time you are 70 will there still be a government pension in place for OAPs I have my doubts ! Live today as if it is your last , tomorrow is another day !!!!!!

[Jonathon]

With their Draconian treatment of ex-pats, which can only get worse, I would very cautious about giving the UK government any money. You could be much better off investing it elsewhere whilst making sure that you have insurance cover valid both here and in the UK (should you decide to return).

[ianwuk]

Are you going to live long enough to get your pension ? And by the time you are 70 will there still be a government pension in place for OAPs I have my doubts ! Live today as if it is your last , tomorrow is another day !!!!!!

You are very correct. Who knows what will happen and the current pension rules may even change again. I guess I just want to be prepared. Sad really.

Edited February 5, 2016 by ianwuk

[sometimewoodworker]

You may not be eligible to pay class 2 contributions. It depends on a variety of factors. You may only be able to pay class 3.

If you care to do the math the UK pension is much better value than any private pension, even with class 3 payments.

If you open an account in the Isle of Mann in nationwide international you can make direct debits from that account. Is is considered to be off shore for tax, so you can open an account, however it is now inside the UK banking system so can function as if it were in the UK.

You will get a reply from HMRC however it will be several months as they are exceptional busy with the change in the pension system. They do answer the phone, but you will have to wait for the pension forecast before you know how much and when you can make payments.

Hello.

Thanks for replying.

Even if I select class 2 on the form, and I am only eligible for class 3 they should write to me to inform me of this? Is that correct?

Yes

And then I can work out how to pay.

Yes

I don't suppose I can set up any UK based account whilst being here in Thailand, right?

Wrong. See above NationwideInternational Isle of Mann is effectively UK based

You said :

They all seem to need me to be a UK resident.

Mainland banks do, IoM banks do not

If I had a UK account it would be easier I suppose.

See above

I just want to start contributing to some sort of pension scheme, in the UK, whilst living and working in Thailand in case I ever decide to go back.

It doesn't matter if you go back or not the UK. State pension is very good value for money

[ianwuk]

Hello.

I had a very quick look at Nationwide International. There list of accounts offered all seem to require a heavy minimum investment first (understandable) which I do not have.

http://www.nationwideinternational.com/accounts/accounts_sterling_glance.htm

Thanks.

Ian

[GarryP]

Paid 3 years I think. Actually, my mum paid them without telling me, bless her. But missing about 30 years. I am 53 now. Don't suppose it is possible to pay the missing years (and yes I could afford it - just) or even worth it?