Is the E.U as we know it ,finished ?

[NeverSure]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

[sirineou]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

CNMoWIRUkAEQ0eB.jpg

Holly Crap!! they must be huge, a couple of handreds of them cover the whole of Germany!!!! if I was German I would be worried.

[Naam]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

Germany has managed bigger problems (country nearly destroyed and influx of 22 million refugees and displaced persons).

Edited March 4, 2016 by Naam

[i claudius]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

Germany has managed bigger problems (country nearly destroyed and influx of 22 million refugees and displaced persons).

Trouble is ,most of these are muslim .

[Naam]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

Germany has managed bigger problems (country nearly destroyed and influx of 22 million refugees and displaced persons).

Trouble is, most of these are muslim.

please enlighten me why. we have since years nearly 4 million Muslims living in Germany.

[nontabury]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

Germany has managed bigger problems (country nearly destroyed and influx of 22 million refugees and displaced persons).

Trouble is, most of these are muslim.

please enlighten me why. we have since years nearly 4 million Muslims living in Germany.

Perhaps the ladies of Cologne would be better placed to answer this question.

[Naam]

shit happens all over, not only in Cologne

[nontabury]

shit happens all over, not only in Cologne

Very true,but what you don't do is import more shit.

[sawadee1947]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

CNMoWIRUkAEQ0eB.jpg

what I could see is a society based on humanity who is fulfilly it's duty to help people fleeing their countries of war and deaths.

[sawadee1947]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

Germany has managed bigger problems (country nearly destroyed and influx of 22 million refugees and displaced persons).

Trouble is ,most of these are muslim .

Germany has managed bigger problems (country nearly destroyed and influx of 22 million refugees and displaced persons).

Trouble is ,most of these are muslim .

What a B.S. !!! These 22 Millions are GERMANS, dispelled by Russians after WWII, later by reunification...

[sawadee1947]

Once Britain negotiated a new deal by definition the EU as we knew it finished and a slightly different EU emerged, The EU , has and is a work in progress.

IMO the danger now is, that once a member nation get's special considerations by threatening to leave,other member nations will threaten to leave if they also did not also get special considerations, signaling the beginning of the end.

IMO a Brexit will be a good thing for the EU, I am also looking forward to a German Exit and perhaps a French exit, This will devalue the Euro to a realistic level for the rest of the member nations, allowing their economies to recover.This will be good for the EU , and good for Germany Britain and France, as their exports to a healthy EU will increase..

Once the rest of the economies in the EU have recovered and are on equal or comparable footing with Germany Britain and France, a re-integration would be sustainable.

Now Norway wants the same deal as the UK how long before everyone would want to renegotiate?

" While voters have twice rejected joining the EU, Norway has still adopted 75 percent of its laws to access the lucrative single market.

Some lawmakers in Europe’s second-richest nation per capita now want a deal similar to the one U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron struck with the EU on curbing welfare benefits for workers from other member states."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-29/norway-seeks-to-piggyback-on-brexit-deal-to-escape-eu-s-grip

The Norwegian politicians want to join the EU but the people dont. The EU is run by politicians for politicians and big business, they dont care about the people.

Absolutely B.S............

Within EU you can move wherever you want, can work wherever you want and can travel wherever you want. And don't forget free trade ina huge market.

(BTW: if UK will leave EU.....ALL people who bought holiday or retiree homes in e/g/ Spain CAN'T stay there. Need a visa for 3 months and have to leave the country. I like this idea)

[sawadee1947]

As we see the worsening scenes from the camps in France, the migrants tearing down fences across Europe , rapes being committed, and infighting between different factions arriving

Will all make the UK ordinary citizens to think no way we want a part of this anymore, OUT

Good idea? Who will secure the entrance to the tunnel then? Nobody. ALL refugees can come into your lovely UK. Maybe then it's only "K", without Scotland

[BaldPlumber]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

CNMoWIRUkAEQ0eB.jpg

what I could see is a society based on humanity who is fulfilly it's duty to help people fleeing their countries of war and deaths.

Really? I see a country that is desperately trying to replenish its dwindling population with zero consideration to other European partner countries.

[sawadee1947]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

CNMoWIRUkAEQ0eB.jpg

what I could see is a society based on humanity who is fulfilly it's duty to help people fleeing their countries of war and deaths.

Really? I see a country that is desperately trying to replenish its dwindling population with zero consideration to other European partner countries.

I'm convinced they will manage it. Shame on all the others so called "partners"

[BaldPlumber]

Every red dot on this map represents a refugee housing accommodation. You are seeing the death of Germany.

CNMoWIRUkAEQ0eB.jpg

what I could see is a society based on humanity who is fulfilly it's duty to help people fleeing their countries of war and deaths.

Really? I see a country that is desperately trying to replenish its dwindling population with zero consideration to other European partner countries.

I'm convinced they will manage it. Shame on all the others so called "partners"

A bit of a shame that the German chancellor didn't see fit to get the agreement and approval of her partners or her electorate though isn't it?

It's almost like she's acting as the queen of Europe, what with making arbitrary decisions and all.

[nontabury]

Once Britain negotiated a new deal by definition the EU as we knew it finished and a slightly different EU emerged, The EU , has and is a work in progress.

IMO the danger now is, that once a member nation get's special considerations by threatening to leave,other member nations will threaten to leave if they also did not also get special considerations, signaling the beginning of the end.

IMO a Brexit will be a good thing for the EU, I am also looking forward to a German Exit and perhaps a French exit, This will devalue the Euro to a realistic level for the rest of the member nations, allowing their economies to recover.This will be good for the EU , and good for Germany Britain and France, as their exports to a healthy EU will increase..

Once the rest of the economies in the EU have recovered and are on equal or comparable footing with Germany Britain and France, a re-integration would be sustainable.

Now Norway wants the same deal as the UK how long before everyone would want to renegotiate?

" While voters have twice rejected joining the EU, Norway has still adopted 75 percent of its laws to access the lucrative single market.

Some lawmakers in Europe’s second-richest nation per capita now want a deal similar to the one U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron struck with the EU on curbing welfare benefits for workers from other member states."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-29/norway-seeks-to-piggyback-on-brexit-deal-to-escape-eu-s-grip

The Norwegian politicians want to join the EU but the people dont. The EU is run by politicians for politicians and big business, they dont care about the people.

Absolutely B.S............

Within EU you can move wherever you want, can work wherever you want and can travel wherever you want. And don't forget free trade ina huge market.

(BTW: if UK will leave EU.....ALL people who bought holiday or retiree homes in e/g/ Spain CAN'T stay there. Need a visa for 3 months and have to leave the country. I like this idea)

Now it's you spouting the B.S. How do you know Brits with holiday homes in Spain Will not be able to remain there. Firstly before the EU. Many Brits managed to enjoy staying in Spain for long periods of time. What will happen if there is a Brit Exit, is that the UK and the EU may make a reciprocal agreement to the Benefit of both sides. The two obvious benefits to Spain for example, would be that their 150,000 citizens, who now reside in the UK would be allowed to remain there. Secondly all those Brits,who bring into Spain vast amounts of hard currency would not be turfed out,as unfortunately due in part to the inefficiency of the EU, Spain itself is suffering economic and financial problems.

[nong38]

Sawadee 1947 you have been taken in by the scaremongering tactics of some junior ministers who are looking to get a better job after the referendum. There are indeed about 500,000 UK nationals spread across the EU, do you really think that the the individual countries are round them up and send them back to Blighty? Freedom of movement is one of the EUs sacred cows they would be a laughing stock if they applied what is being suggested by some who will do anything to grab a vote, spread fear and look after their own future before the country.

You are perfectly entitled to see it the way you have seen it portrayed. In this debate for the future of the UK, there will be conflicting statements, what everyone has to do is to try and make sense of what is being said and reach a conclusion, yours happens to be different to mine.

[sirineou]

Sawadee 1947 you have been taken in by the scaremongering tactics of some junior ministers who are looking to get a better job after the referendum. There are indeed about 500,000 UK nationals spread across the EU, do you really think that the the individual countries are round them up and send them back to Blighty? Freedom of movement is one of the EUs sacred cows they would be a laughing stock if they applied what is being suggested by some who will do anything to grab a vote, spread fear and look after their own future before the country.

You are perfectly entitled to see it the way you have seen it portrayed. In this debate for the future of the UK, there will be conflicting statements, what everyone has to do is to try and make sense of what is being said and reach a conclusion, yours happens to be different to mine.

if Britain exits the EU, a new relationship agreement would need to be negotiated, with the EU, with in this new agreement there would be provisions pertaining to Britons living in EU countries and Britons would have to comply with the requirements. as they do in every other country.

One would assume that the requirement would be more stringent than they are for EU members but not necessarily so.

[sawadee1947]

Now Norway wants the same deal as the UK how long before everyone would want to renegotiate?

" While voters have twice rejected joining the EU, Norway has still adopted 75 percent of its laws to access the lucrative single market.

Some lawmakers in Europe’s second-richest nation per capita now want a deal similar to the one U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron struck with the EU on curbing welfare benefits for workers from other member states."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-29/norway-seeks-to-piggyback-on-brexit-deal-to-escape-eu-s-grip

The Norwegian politicians want to join the EU but the people dont. The EU is run by politicians for politicians and big business, they dont care about the people.

Absolutely B.S............

Within EU you can move wherever you want, can work wherever you want and can travel wherever you want. And don't forget free trade ina huge market.

(BTW: if UK will leave EU.....ALL people who bought holiday or retiree homes in e/g/ Spain CAN'T stay there. Need a visa for 3 months and have to leave the country. I like this idea)

Now it's you spouting the B.S. How do you know Brits with holiday homes in Spain Will not be able to remain there. Firstly before the EU. Many Brits managed to enjoy staying in Spain for long periods of time. What will happen if there is a Brit Exit, is that the UK and the EU may make a reciprocal agreement to the Benefit of both sides. The two obvious benefits to Spain for example, would be that their 150,000 citizens, who now reside in the UK would be allowed to remain there. Secondly all those Brits,who bring into Spain vast amounts of hard currency would not be turfed out,as unfortunately due in part to the inefficiency of the EU, Spain itself is suffering economic and financial problems.

555 As Non Eu members there have to apply for a Schengen Visa. It's valid for 3 months. You should know that. (Also don't forget....Brit's money will have only one direction....downturn. )

[nong38]

You can prove a point at any point in time, but over the last few days the £ has bounced back, you should know that it you looked at the currencies, you do look at them before posting dont you?

[sawadee1947]

Sawadee 1947 you have been taken in by the scaremongering tactics of some junior ministers who are looking to get a better job after the referendum. There are indeed about 500,000 UK nationals spread across the EU, do you really think that the the individual countries are round them up and send them back to Blighty? Freedom of movement is one of the EUs sacred cows they would be a laughing stock if they applied what is being suggested by some who will do anything to grab a vote, spread fear and look after their own future before the country.

You are perfectly entitled to see it the way you have seen it portrayed. In this debate for the future of the UK, there will be conflicting statements, what everyone has to do is to try and make sense of what is being said and reach a conclusion, yours happens to be different to mine.

I agree with you. This discussions will grow on all levels very controversially. Even in UK's govt.

Today I read: It shows with how many prejudices we have to fight.

From benefits to bendy bananas: Fact-checking UK's EU debate

LONDON (AP) — Arguments and allegations are flying as Britons grapple with how to vote in a June 23 referendum on whether to stay in the European Union or walk away. Opponents say the 28-nation bloc is a bureaucratic behemoth that sucks up billions from British taxpayers while imposing undemocratic laws — even dictating the maximum curvature of bananas. Supporters argue that Britain's prosperity and security benefit from EU membership.

A look at some of the claims by both sides and how they compare with the facts: CLAIM: The EU makes most of Britain's laws; it even regulates the shape of bananas. THE FACTS: Opponents of the EU argue that what began in the 1950s as a trading bloc has ballooned in scale and ambition, making policy in areas once reserved for national lawmakers. The group Business for Britain claims that 65 percent of laws introduced in Britain either stem from or are influenced by the EU.

Researchers at the House of Commons Library came up with a much lower figure: 13.2 percent of British legislation introduced between 1993 and 2014 was EU-related. However, the calculation does not include EU regulations that are implemented without the need for new national laws — so the real figure is probably higher, though likely not as high as 65 percent.

As an example of legislative heavy-handedness, Britain's tabloid press loves to cite the claim that the EU bans "bendy bananas" and crooked cucumbers. A 1994 EU regulation did indeed specify that bananas must be "free from abnormal curvature." EU rules also governed the shape of many other fruits and vegetables — cucumbers, for example, needed to be almost perfectly straight. Many of these specifications were abolished in 2008, though the banana guidelines remain on the books.

CLAIM

The EU costs British taxpayers almost half a billion dollars a week.

THE FACTS: The figure, cited by anti-EU group Vote Leave, comes from the House of Commons Library, which estimates that Britain paid 17.8 billion pounds to the EU in 2015, roughly 350 million pounds ($490 million) a week.

But Britain got half the money back, including 4.9 billion pounds through a rebate negotiated by then-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s. The U.K.'s net contribution in 2015 was 8.5 billion pounds — about 165 million pounds ($230 million) a week.

On a per-capita basis, Britain is the eighth-biggest contributor to the EU budget, paying less per head than countries including Germany, the Netherlands and France.

CLAIM

Britain will be poorer outside the European Union.

THE FACTS: While the economic impact of a British exit — or Brexit — is hard to predict, many economists believe that leaving the EU's tariff-free internal trade and market of 500 million people would be an economic blow.

Trade with EU countries accounted for 45 percent of U.K. exports and 53 percent of imports in 2014. A Brexit would disrupt that trade, at least temporarily, while new agreements were negotiated — a process that could take several years.

The London School of Economics' Center for Economic Policy has calculated that, even if trade barriers with other European countries do not significantly increase, per capita income in Britain will fall by between 1.1 percent and 3.1 percent after a Brexit.

"The possibility of trading more with the rest of the world can't offset the loss of trade with the EU," said the center's Thomas Sampson.

Britain also would likely have to pay into EU funds to secure trade deals with the bloc, as non-EU members Norway and Switzerland currently do.

Some economists, however, say the British economy will benefit if it is freed from EU regulatory shackles and protectionism.

Patrick Minford, professor of applied economics at Cardiff Business School, argues that EU policies supporting agriculture, manufacturing and other sectors prop up unsustainable industries and "warps our economy." He says that Britain — which has been charting a more free-market path than many of its European neighbors since the Thatcherite 1980s — would be better off leaving the EU's protective umbrella and conducting all its trade under World Trade Organization arrangements.

CLAIM

Britain will be able to control its borders and limit immigration if it leaves the EU.

THE FACTS: As a member of the European Union, Britain must allow citizens of all 27 other member states to live and work in the U.K. Britons can also move abroad, but over the last decade the traffic has been lopsided. The House of Commons Library estimates there are around 1.2 million Britons living in other EU countries, compared with around 3 million EU migrants living in Britain.

If Britain leaves the EU, it would regain the power to stop European Union migrants settling — but that is not the whole story, says Jonathan Portes of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research.

He says a move by Britain to limit or end free movement "will make it very difficult, and maybe impossible, to negotiate the kind of free trade and single-market relationships that many people on the Brexit side want to see." Countries outside the EU that have struck free-trade deals with the bloc, such as Norway and Switzerland, have had to allow EU nationals access to their job markets in return.

CLAIM

Migrants are drawn to the U.K. by generous welfare benefits, and limiting benefits will reduce immigration.

THE FACTS: EU leaders have agreed to let Britain impose a temporary ban on new arrivals from member states claiming some top-up benefits paid to lower-income workers.

The British government says this will help curb immigration by removing "the 'pull factor' arising from the U.K. benefits system."

But there is little evidence that benefits are a pull factor for migrants. A recent study by the Overseas Development Institute said researchers had found "essentially zero evidence" for the notion that welfare systems pull migrants to wealthy countries. Portes says the National Institute of Economic and Social Research found "no evidence to suggest it's true."

Most economists and policy-makers think wages are a much bigger attraction. Britain's minimum wage is 6.70 pounds ($9.37) an hour, three times the rate in Poland and more than six times that in Romania.

CLAIM

Leaving the EU will make Britain less safe.

THE FACTS: Many top brass and former military chiefs oppose leaving the EU. A group of former generals, admirals and air marshals said in an open letter that "within the EU, we are stronger" and better able to confront threats including the Islamic State group to growing Russian nationalism. Britain's independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson, says EU-wide mechanisms such as the European arrest warrant and passenger-record sharing are effective counter-terror measures.

Others point out that Britain would remain a nuclear power and a member of the NATO alliance if it left the EU. And the U.K.'s security also rests on its close intelligence-sharing relationship with the U.S., which would likely not be affected by EU withdrawal.

[sawadee1947]

You can prove a point at any point in time, but over the last few days the £ has bounced back, you should know that it you looked at the currencies, you do look at them before posting dont you?

right, but WE were talking about the time after a potential BREXIT

[elliss]

You can prove a point at any point in time, but over the last few days the £ has bounced back, you should know that it you looked at the currencies, you do look at them before posting dont you?

Spot on , the doom mongers , have shot their bolt , GBP , will bounce back .

Soon we will see the Blue Political Big Guns , who serve our best interests.

They will declare their allegiance to our sovereignty ,

Our Country , Great Britain.

Two World Wars, for what .Queen Angela .

The EU calamity , has cost us enough .OUT.

Edited March 5, 2016 by elliss

[nong38]

"many top Brass" have indeed supported staying in the EU, there as many who want to leave and think we would be in a better position to take care of our borders and security outside of the UK. indeed some claim that because of the way procurement works in the EU we have had to order items from the EU rather than have it built in Britain! Article in todays Daily Express from one of our former security chiefs is worth a read.

Since the battle for for the EU began at the end of last month, the HMG have fought a very negative and scaremongering tactic, they have tried to get Military and Business leaders to back staying in and have moderate success with some whilst others who do not toe the line get suspensded, they have tried to deny any information to their opponents, in short they do not convince me and I guess many others that they faith in their own case!

If we stay in we have no idea what the EU have in store for us after the 23rd June, as they seem to be taking afront to us wanting to leave, it might not be such a pleasant place to stay in.

The issues will be many what we have to put a pro or a con to, but the two biggest issues and what I suspect it will come down to is Immigration and Gut feeling about our relationship with the EU and on those two counts it does not look good for Cameron and his team and if he does not start playing his cards right soon he will drive more people into the "out" camp.

As far as currency issues are concerned it will go up and down, I expect we will have a period of poorer rates for a time, maybe a couple of years if we left but the Euro would also fall, its hardly a supportive statement if the 2nd biggest economy and contributor to the EU wants to leave is it? If we stayed in then expect the £ to climb and the Euro as well, the question for everyone is is it a price worth paying?

[HauptmannUK]

Whatever the outcome of the vote I think a lot of people will end up disappointed.

If we vote to stay, not a lot will change. Minor tinkering.

If we vote to leave then not a lot will change....

The migrant situation will not change because we will continue with the EEA free movement agreements. Employers in food, agriculture, hospitality and construction will continue to recruit Eastern Europeans. In fact the increase in Minimum Wage could draw in even more.

Migrants will continue to camp at Calais and try to enter the UK.

Asylum Seekers are dealt with according to UN directives and there is no suggestion that we pull out of the UN!

Will will continue to make payments to the EU, in the same fashion as non-EU Norway and Switzerland.

Companies will continue to comply with EU legislation.

If we don't play be EU rules they will simply threaten restrictions on the UK Financial Services indutries operations in Europe. The government will quickly fall into line.

[sawadee1947]

"many top Brass" have indeed supported staying in the EU, there as many who want to leave and think we would be in a better position to take care of our borders and security outside of the UK. indeed some claim that because of the way procurement works in the EU we have had to order items from the EU rather than have it built in Britain! Article in todays Daily Express from one of our former security chiefs is worth a read.

Since the battle for for the EU began at the end of last month, the HMG have fought a very negative and scaremongering tactic, they have tried to get Military and Business leaders to back staying in and have moderate success with some whilst others who do not toe the line get suspensded, they have tried to deny any information to their opponents, in short they do not convince me and I guess many others that they faith in their own case!

If we stay in we have no idea what the EU have in store for us after the 23rd June, as they seem to be taking afront to us wanting to leave, it might not be such a pleasant place to stay in.

The issues will be many what we have to put a pro or a con to, but the two biggest issues and what I suspect it will come down to is Immigration and Gut feeling about our relationship with the EU and on those two counts it does not look good for Cameron and his team and if he does not start playing his cards right soon he will drive more people into the "out" camp.

As far as currency issues are concerned it will go up and down, I expect we will have a period of poorer rates for a time, maybe a couple of years if we left but the Euro would also fall, its hardly a supportive statement if the 2nd biggest economy and contributor to the EU wants to leave is it? If we stayed in then expect the £ to climb and the Euro as well, the question for everyone is is it a price worth paying?

yes, I agree so far. I got the impression, that is is a main problem how UK is valuing membership. I don't mean only the value of the currency but "United States of Europe". I know at present we are far away from that, just the opposite. But It's about integration as a part of being a counterpart to US,China (and India, Asia). We can't compete as little island with those others. There are tight ties already between Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army. This army got even nuclear power and the best factories for war/defence equipment.

Or look at the financial market. It will come to a Bank's union (it's on the way already) and the laws concerning taxes will be very similar in the main EU countries. Though I have to admit that not all countries fufilled the requirements of becoming a member. So the future for EU is not bad but for UK as a sole country (without Scotland? Without oil? Border controls, restrictions in free trade) not bright. (new elections, hardliner govt?)

[sawadee1947]

Whatever the outcome of the vote I think a lot of people will end up disappointed.

If we vote to stay, not a lot will change. Minor tinkering.

If we vote to leave then not a lot will change....

The migrant situation will not change because we will continue with the EEA free movement agreements. Employers in food, agriculture, hospitality and construction will continue to recruit Eastern Europeans. In fact the increase in Minimum Wage could draw in even more.

Migrants will continue to camp at Calais and try to enter the UK.

Asylum Seekers are dealt with according to UN directives and there is no suggestion that we pull out of the UN!

Will will continue to make payments to the EU, in the same fashion as non-EU Norway and Switzerland.

Companies will continue to comply with EU legislation.

If we don't play be EU rules they will simply threaten restrictions on the UK Financial Services indutries operations in Europe. The government will quickly fall into line.

I will not intimidate you, but with this imagination/opinion you seem to be a lone cowboy.

[billd766]

"many top Brass" have indeed supported staying in the EU, there as many who want to leave and think we would be in a better position to take care of our borders and security outside of the UK. indeed some claim that because of the way procurement works in the EU we have had to order items from the EU rather than have it built in Britain! Article in todays Daily Express from one of our former security chiefs is worth a read.

Since the battle for for the EU began at the end of last month, the HMG have fought a very negative and scaremongering tactic, they have tried to get Military and Business leaders to back staying in and have moderate success with some whilst others who do not toe the line get suspensded, they have tried to deny any information to their opponents, in short they do not convince me and I guess many others that they faith in their own case!

If we stay in we have no idea what the EU have in store for us after the 23rd June, as they seem to be taking afront to us wanting to leave, it might not be such a pleasant place to stay in.

The issues will be many what we have to put a pro or a con to, but the two biggest issues and what I suspect it will come down to is Immigration and Gut feeling about our relationship with the EU and on those two counts it does not look good for Cameron and his team and if he does not start playing his cards right soon he will drive more people into the "out" camp.

As far as currency issues are concerned it will go up and down, I expect we will have a period of poorer rates for a time, maybe a couple of years if we left but the Euro would also fall, its hardly a supportive statement if the 2nd biggest economy and contributor to the EU wants to leave is it? If we stayed in then expect the £ to climb and the Euro as well, the question for everyone is is it a price worth paying?

yes, I agree so far. I got the impression, that is is a main problem how UK is valuing membership. I don't mean only the value of the currency but "United States of Europe". I know at present we are far away from that, just the opposite. But It's about integration as a part of being a counterpart to US,China (and India, Asia). We can't compete as little island with those others. There are tight ties already between Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army. This army got even nuclear power and the best factories for war/defence equipment.

Or look at the financial market. It will come to a Bank's union (it's on the way already) and the laws concerning taxes will be very similar in the main EU countries. Though I have to admit that not all countries fufilled the requirements of becoming a member. So the future for EU is not bad but for UK as a sole country (without Scotland? Without oil? Border controls, restrictions in free trade) not bright. (new elections, hardliner govt?)

You have mentioned that Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army. This army got even nuclear power and the best factories for war/defence equipment.

Are you talking about nuclear power or nuclear weapons?

AFAIR the only nuclear weapons in the EU at present are either American or British and as for the best weapons factories Belgium has licensed out its rifle manufacturing. there are very few if any countries in the EU who make a complete warplane in their own countries. Ships, helicopters, tanks, yes they do. Ammunition has been standardised throughout the NATO countries is is generally manufactured in country.

There is no complete EU standing military force though there is NATO which also has the USA, Canada and the UK but interestingly enough France is not a member of NATO.

[sawadee1947]

"many top Brass" have indeed supported staying in the EU, there as many who want to leave and think we would be in a better position to take care of our borders and security outside of the UK. indeed some claim that because of the way procurement works in the EU we have had to order items from the EU rather than have it built in Britain! Article in todays Daily Express from one of our former security chiefs is worth a read.

Since the battle for for the EU began at the end of last month, the HMG have fought a very negative and scaremongering tactic, they have tried to get Military and Business leaders to back staying in and have moderate success with some whilst others who do not toe the line get suspensded, they have tried to deny any information to their opponents, in short they do not convince me and I guess many others that they faith in their own case!

If we stay in we have no idea what the EU have in store for us after the 23rd June, as they seem to be taking afront to us wanting to leave, it might not be such a pleasant place to stay in.

The issues will be many what we have to put a pro or a con to, but the two biggest issues and what I suspect it will come down to is Immigration and Gut feeling about our relationship with the EU and on those two counts it does not look good for Cameron and his team and if he does not start playing his cards right soon he will drive more people into the "out" camp.

As far as currency issues are concerned it will go up and down, I expect we will have a period of poorer rates for a time, maybe a couple of years if we left but the Euro would also fall, its hardly a supportive statement if the 2nd biggest economy and contributor to the EU wants to leave is it? If we stayed in then expect the £ to climb and the Euro as well, the question for everyone is is it a price worth paying?

yes, I agree so far. I got the impression, that is is a main problem how UK is valuing membership. I don't mean only the value of the currency but "United States of Europe". I know at present we are far away from that, just the opposite. But It's about integration as a part of being a counterpart to US,China (and India, Asia). We can't compete as little island with those others. There are tight ties already between Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army. This army got even nuclear power and the best factories for war/defence equipment.

Or look at the financial market. It will come to a Bank's union (it's on the way already) and the laws concerning taxes will be very similar in the main EU countries. Though I have to admit that not all countries fufilled the requirements of becoming a member. So the future for EU is not bad but for UK as a sole country (without Scotland? Without oil? Border controls, restrictions in free trade) not bright. (new elections, hardliner govt?)

You have mentioned that Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army. This army got even nuclear power and the best factories for war/defence equipment.

Are you talking about nuclear power or nuclear weapons?

AFAIR the only nuclear weapons in the EU at present are either American or British and as for the best weapons factories Belgium has licensed out its rifle manufacturing. there are very few if any countries in the EU who make a complete warplane in their own countries. Ships, helicopters, tanks, yes they do. Ammunition has been standardised throughout the NATO countries is is generally manufactured in country.

There is no complete EU standing military force though there is NATO which also has the USA, Canada and the UK but interestingly enough France is not a member of NATO.

Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army

yes, and nuclear weapons come from France! "Force de frappe"

Weapon factories: Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, Germany (EADS-consortium)

[billd766]

"many top Brass" have indeed supported staying in the EU, there as many who want to leave and think we would be in a better position to take care of our borders and security outside of the UK. indeed some claim that because of the way procurement works in the EU we have had to order items from the EU rather than have it built in Britain! Article in todays Daily Express from one of our former security chiefs is worth a read.

Since the battle for for the EU began at the end of last month, the HMG have fought a very negative and scaremongering tactic, they have tried to get Military and Business leaders to back staying in and have moderate success with some whilst others who do not toe the line get suspensded, they have tried to deny any information to their opponents, in short they do not convince me and I guess many others that they faith in their own case!

If we stay in we have no idea what the EU have in store for us after the 23rd June, as they seem to be taking afront to us wanting to leave, it might not be such a pleasant place to stay in.

The issues will be many what we have to put a pro or a con to, but the two biggest issues and what I suspect it will come down to is Immigration and Gut feeling about our relationship with the EU and on those two counts it does not look good for Cameron and his team and if he does not start playing his cards right soon he will drive more people into the "out" camp.

As far as currency issues are concerned it will go up and down, I expect we will have a period of poorer rates for a time, maybe a couple of years if we left but the Euro would also fall, its hardly a supportive statement if the 2nd biggest economy and contributor to the EU wants to leave is it? If we stayed in then expect the £ to climb and the Euro as well, the question for everyone is is it a price worth paying?

yes, I agree so far. I got the impression, that is is a main problem how UK is valuing membership. I don't mean only the value of the currency but "United States of Europe". I know at present we are far away from that, just the opposite. But It's about integration as a part of being a counterpart to US,China (and India, Asia). We can't compete as little island with those others. There are tight ties already between Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army. This army got even nuclear power and the best factories for war/defence equipment.

Or look at the financial market. It will come to a Bank's union (it's on the way already) and the laws concerning taxes will be very similar in the main EU countries. Though I have to admit that not all countries fufilled the requirements of becoming a member. So the future for EU is not bad but for UK as a sole country (without Scotland? Without oil? Border controls, restrictions in free trade) not bright. (new elections, hardliner govt?)

You have mentioned that Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army. This army got even nuclear power and the best factories for war/defence equipment.

Are you talking about nuclear power or nuclear weapons?

AFAIR the only nuclear weapons in the EU at present are either American or British and as for the best weapons factories Belgium has licensed out its rifle manufacturing. there are very few if any countries in the EU who make a complete warplane in their own countries. Ships, helicopters, tanks, yes they do. Ammunition has been standardised throughout the NATO countries is is generally manufactured in country.

There is no complete EU standing military force though there is NATO which also has the USA, Canada and the UK but interestingly enough France is not a member of NATO.

Benelux, Germany and France forming a common army

yes, and nuclear weapons come from France! "Force de frappe"

Weapon factories: Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, Germany (EADS-consortium)

Sorry. I forgot about France and their nuclear weapons.

They of course will have control of the trigger.